Off Topic-From "Would You Rather be Japanese or American?"

[Pachipro]

America is totally dependent on the cheap labor illegal immigrants provide, the government couldn't just send them all back without seriously hurting their own economy.
It's quite hypocritical actually because they complain about illegal immigrants taking Americans jobs and cheapening the country but aren't all the big companies exporting the good jobs overseas because it's cheaper? If anyone is cheapening the US is it the wealthy white Americans, not the Mexicans.

Oh THAT'S an argument! Blame it on the Rich White Guy!

That's so yesterday!

The illegal aliens have invaded this country. Our American culture has been eroded, our schools are dumbed down, our language hijacked, our healthcare system on the brink of bankruptcy.

The United States used to be a land of opportunity, where an immigrant (Legal) could come here with a dream and a dollar in his pocket and make something of his life. Now we have become a country of "hand outs, freebies, and give a ways" and the hordes of illegal aliens have rushed in to take advantage.

Whose fault is it? Not the "rich white guy" who stayed in school, got good grades, graduated from university, started a company, worked his butt off, and is now paying through high taxes for all these benefits to illegal aliens.

The fault lies with those people who are crippled with politically correct thinking and believe if we all just "love each other" this country could be Utopia. Guess what.......Utopia is fantasy. It's not real.

Now give me my country back!

Sorry to inform you BetsyRoss but Madame Papillion is on the right track. Do a little homework and googling and you will indeed discover that it was "The Rich White Guy" that has sold this country out from right under your very nose.

The illegal aliens have "invaded" this country because the US government allowed them to and even encouraged them! Do you honestly believe that if terrorism were such a threat to the United States that the boarders of the US with Mexico would not have been sealed the evening of 9/11?

Today, 6 1/2 years later, there are still open boarders with Mexicans coming across by the hundreds on a daily basis and the boarder patrol has strict orders not to stop them. Who is dumbed down and naive now? I'd have to say the typical American who swallows hook, line, and sinker what his government has fed them.

If the US government did not want illegals in this country the boarders would be sealed. If the US government did not want illegals in this country there would be NO handouts without first establishing your citizenship; there would be no jobs without establishing proof of citizenship; there would be no housing without establishing citizenship; there would be no issuing of drivers licenses; etc., etc. End of story!

The individual is handicapped by coming face to face with a conspiracy so monstrous he cannot believe it exists.

The fault lies mainly with people like yourself who will not face the truth and refuse to believe that your own country and government has sold you out for cheap labor and higher profits for the multi-national corporations by moving more than 70% of manufacturing jobs off shore in the name of "free trade" and that they have plans to bring America down a notch or two.

Remember "free trade" is not fair trade. "Free trade" is equivelant to higher profits. Just look around you or pick up the newspaper. Jobs are being sent overseas by the thousands each day and decent American jobs are now being given to illegals for less than half what an American was receiving a few years ago. Look at the dollar. Sinking day by day. MIllions are losing their homes and jobs. It is so bad that when the US treasury offered their T-bills last week for auction not one foreign country was interested because of the low interest rate. WIthout foreigners buying T-bills who will finance the national debt that now stands at more than US$9 Trillion ($9,000,000,000,000).

The "rich white guys" will succeed in reaching their goal of having an American Union where the US, Canada, and Mexico share one currency and boarders and the goal is 2010. If you still do not believe me here is a link for you to ponder and read. "Building A North American Community". Be sure to click on the English link for the PDF file.

They know most Americans will not believe it, or even read it for that matter nor do they care what you think. So they have been so bold as to put the entire report on the web for all to see.

I think it's high time you woke up and smelled the coffee. The US no longer is, nor will it ever be again, the land of your fathers and grand-fathers. Your freedoms are being taken away on a daily basis and it is no longer the land of opportunity and freedom. Now that they have found cheaper labor elsewhere, the hell with you they are saying. They don't need you anymore.

They have the average American so far in debt today and so in fear of their jobs and losing their homes that they can do anything and the average American would glady give up more of their hard fought for and won freedoms just for the hope of staying afloat. Just look at how they bailed out Bear Sterns yesterday while hundreds are losing their homes on a daily basis.

The light is on, dim as it may be, but there doesn't seem to be anybody home yet! I just hope the light doesn't burn out before somebody gets home!

 

[Tokis-Phoenix]

I agree with you that America's economy is very dependent on cheap immigrant labor, however i disagree that America has illegal immigrants because it wants them- the reason why people like illegal Mexican immigrants as so many in America is simply because its extremely difficult to control who goes over the boarder, the immigrants are there because the American government fails to control its boarders.

To BetsyRossPatriots and those of her opinion: Its about time Americans stopped blaming other groups and started looking for the answers in their own government- Bush has destroyed America's reputation overseas (i can tell you for a fact that there are large numbers of us brits which are none too chuffed with a lot of the American governments actions in many area's) and has had a very negative impact on America's own economies- the reason why you American's and your economy is suffering is not to be blamed on immigration, but rather your governments actions. This is a reality that all American's should face up to, until you do, you cannot expect your country to get any better- the immigrants are just a scape goat/distraction from the real problems in your country.

 

[Goldiegirl]

I don't mind being judged by other Americans, but certainly not by an outsider looking in. When you point a finger at others, remember you have 3 pointing back at yourself. Illegal immigration IS a BIG problem, not the ONLY problem.

 

[Tokis-Phoenix]

I don't mind being judged by other Americans, but certainly not by an outsider looking in. When you point a finger at others, remember you have 3 pointing back at yourself. Illegal immigration IS a BIG problem, not the ONLY problem.

No one's judging you in particular and IMHO its silly to take these things personally. Regardless of whether you liked being judged by others or not, the whole world is judging America right now and you will just have to accept that- you are hypocritical if you don't want "outsiders" to judge you, because you do the very same on many other issues concerning other countries (how many times have i seen you judging whalers in Japan etc? Many- point made). To hold an opinion on something you will inevitably judge something at some point.

So then, what problems in American society do you blame on illegal immigrants and how do you think these problems can be realistically solved?

 

[Goldiegirl]

To judge a populous based on the leader of their country is foolish indeed. I certainly don't like Kim Jon Il and how he leads North Korea, that doesn't mean I can blame all North Koreans for their countries troubles. President Bush is just that, the president, their will be a new one soon. I think it's fruitless to keep bashing Bush. Illegal immigration is draining the states that border Mexico. They get welfare and medical care and the local municipalities foot the bill along with the rest of the tax payers. Pachipro is correct, the borders could be closed. We have enough laws on the books to do so, they just need to be enforced. It's hard when you live on an island to understand illegal immigration, it's a bit harder to get there.

 

[Tokis-Phoenix]

To judge a populous based on the leader of their country is foolish indeed. President Bush is just that, the president, their will be a new one soon. I think it's fruitless to keep bashing Bush.

I don't judge a whole populous based on their leader, i judge the leader and those who follow/agree with him and i always have done, i don't pretend to believe that bush is representative of everyone in America's opinions- a president is never just a president if you think that its no big deal- a presidents actions can quite understandably greatly effect the image of the country he is president of.
Just because i do not hold positive opinions on bush does not mean i am mindlessly "Bush bashing" him by speaking in a less than admirable manner of him. If you think its fruitless to stand up to your own president or let his actions slip by because there's going to be a new president soon, then thats your stance- i take a different stance: i think Bush should be help responsible for his countless failings in government.

You blame the immigrants- but i think you should be blaming your government for practically allowing the immigrants to be there. Its not the immigrants fault that your country doesn't defend its boarders properly- blaming immigrants for your countries issues is no better than a farmer blaming rats for eating his wheat when the farmer has left the door open to his wheat shed for the rats to come in.

 

[Goldiegirl]

So you are saying that it is ok to break the law of another country just because you can? Funny I thought if you broke the laws you were a criminal.

 

[Tokis-Phoenix]

So you are saying that it is ok to break the law of another country just because you can? Funny I thought if you broke the laws you were a criminal.

Um, no.
My point is that you can't blame the immigrants for their situation- if you were living in absolute poverty in a crime filled slum of a neighborhood which had no employment/jobs, with no money and food and your mother or children were ill etc, and you heard of this amazing place called America where if you could get into the country you could solve all of your problems, would you try getting into that country? For some of immigrants, immigration is even a question of life or death.


Really...I don't think we should even be playing the blame game. If these immigrants weren't living in such terrible conditions, then they wouldn't want to come to America- they are coming coming to the country out of little choice of their own. But on the other hand, its practically impossible to monitor all of the boarders in America; what do you expect- do you expect the government to build a massive perimeter fence of thousands of miles surrounding all of America, manned by thousands of guards etc...?

At the end of the day, if these illegal immigrants weren't living in such dire miserable conditions in their own homelands, then they wouldn't go to the trouble of illegally immigrating to America. So the only way to solve the illegal immigration problem is to start helping these hard done by people's countries by making them better places to live- unfortunately though due to Bush big c*ck-up of Iraq, money and manpower to spend on such an adventure is rather limited- you could actually say that Bush has actually made the illegal immigration problem potentially much worse by making places like Iraq much worser places to live in than what they were before, so more people are trying to get out of such countries by any means possible than what they were before etc.

edit: sp

 

[MadamePapillon]

To judge a populous based on the leader of their country is foolish indeed. I certainly don't like Kim Jon Il and how he leads North Korea, that doesn't mean I can blame all North Koreans for their countries troubles. President Bush is just that, the president, their will be a new one soon. I think it's fruitless to keep bashing Bush. Illegal immigration is draining the states that border Mexico. They get welfare and medical care and the local municipalities foot the bill along with the rest of the tax payers. Pachipro is correct, the borders could be closed. We have enough laws on the books to do so, they just need to be enforced. It's hard when you live on an island to understand illegal immigration, it's a bit harder to get there.

The difference between Kim Jong Il and Bush is that Bush was elected through a democratic process, meaning that a good percentage of the country was backing him in becoming President and retaining the Presidency. So, in a way, yes, it does reflect directly on the general public.

Also, with illegal immigration...the key word is illegal. They aren't supposed to be in the country, it is against the law...yet a great many somebodies are giving them (as many have said: free handouts), medical, welfare, drivers licenses. Who are these people and why are they helping out illegal immigrants...for what purpose?

The only real conclusion that anyone can come to is that the government DOES want these immigrants, illegal or not. Sure, there have been some half assed 'we're going to build a border fence' or 'we have cameras set up now' but the reality is, if the American Government really didn't want illegal immigrants in their country then there is no way in hell they would be coming into the country by the hundreds and thousands or at all.

 

[Goldiegirl]

I can blame the immigrants for sneaking into my country and breaking the law to do so. To say it's ok because their country is poor doesn't make it legal and doesn't make it just. Remember I am married to a foreigner and he is in the USA legally. I find it hypocritical that in one breath everyone says the USA needs to stay out of other countries and then in another Tokis, you say the USA needs to help Mexico. That is riding both sides of the fence!

 

[Tokis-Phoenix]

I can blame the immigrants for sneaking into my country and breaking the law to do so. To say it's ok because their country is poor doesn't make it legal and doesn't make it just. Remember I am married to a foreigner and he is in the USA legally. I find it hypocritical that in one breath everyone says the USA needs to stay out of other countries and then in another Tokis, you say the USA needs to help Mexico. That is riding both sides of the fence!

When did i say its ok, legal or just for immigrants to illegally occupy a country? All i did was make my point on that i understand why a lot of immigrants immigrate out of their countries (and you also failed to answer a question i asked on the matter, which i am still willing/wanting to hear your answer for).
Also, whether a country is right or not to delve in other countries business it depends on the situation/circumstances- i have never said 100% America should or shouldn't stay out of other countries business, because in my opinion it completely depends with whats actually going and being dealt with etc- its very much a situation/circumstance thing. So i'm not "riding both sides of the fence", either you are honestly misinterpreting what i am saying or knowingly twisting it out of context.

There's no point in blaming someone for something when you don't actually have any idea on how to solve or make better etc the problem you are blaming for- otherwise, what can you say is constructive about your opinion? Immigration needs to be dealt with in a constructive and progressive manner, if you just sit there blaming someone for something and not doing anything more about things then you cannot really realistically expect things to get any better.

 

[Goldiegirl]

Hmm....twisting your words. Funny we've gone round and round before. I can't twist what you don't offer. There would be no problems if the Mexicans obeyed the laws. When I go to Japan I go through immigration! You do like to pick and choose where America can help or not. Pick a side not both.

 

[Tokis-Phoenix]

Hmm....twisting your words. Funny we've gone round and round before. I can't twist what you don't offer. There would be no problems if the Mexicans obeyed the laws. When I go to Japan I go through immigration! You do like to pick and choose where America can help or not. Pick a side not both.

"Sigh" yes we have gone through this twisting of word business haven't we, yes i remember, you openly admitted to doing it. Twisting words is no better than twisting statistics or dodging responsibility etc.

Anyways, i don't pick "sides" just as much as i don't pick religions or groups of people etc- I view each situation as what it is and not based on whether its on my side or not. If you start picking sides then you will forever be in turmoil/discontent/unease etc with certain other people's- i myself prefer to develop an opinion starting from a neutral standpoint. Nothing is black and white in this world, its not all about "sides" either.

You are unlikely to ever need to illegally immigrate to another country- you have a pretty cushty/comfy lifestyle where you are. But you failed to answer this scenario i put forward to you; if you were living in absolute poverty in a crime filled slum of a neighborhood which had no employment/jobs, with no money and food and your mother or children were ill etc, and you heard of this amazing place called America where if you could get into the country you could solve all of your problems, would you try getting into that country?
You might all act high and mighty living your life as it is with your sides and opinions on other people and all, but trust me, there are situations where we are all capable of breaking any law under certain circumstances/situations. So consider those that are in those desperate circumstances/situations that make those people/immigrants go towards those desperate measures- people die trying to get into places like America. So don't go comparing yourself going through immigration into Japan to Mexican immigrants trying to get into America who are often in a far worse situation than yourself and in completely different circumstances etc.
We don't live in an ideal world, so there's no point in saying stuff like "There would be no problems if the Mexicans obeyed the laws"- This is incorrect for a start in so many ways (you don't seriously believe that Mexicans are The cause of the immigration problem or America's problems in general?).

The difference between Kim Jong Il and Bush is that Bush was elected through a democratic process, meaning that a good percentage of the country was backing him in becoming President and retaining the Presidency. So, in a way, yes, it does reflect directly on the general public.

I totally agree .

 

[Tokis-Phoenix]

Anyways, according to BetsyRossPatriots, the American "healthcare system on the brink of bankruptcy"- how come your health care system is going bankrupt, don't you guys pay directly for whatever health care you use?

 

[Goldiegirl]

There are millions of uninsured citizens and they have to be treated even though they can not pay, not to mention all the illegals that HAVE to be given care even though they are CRIMINALS. I do not play what if games. I worked for what I have.

 

[Tokis-Phoenix]

There are millions of uninsured citizens and they have to be treated even though they can not pay, not to mention all the illegals that HAVE to be given care even though they are CRIMINALS. I do not play what if games. I worked for what I have.

Yes but the illegal immigrants are not the only ones that don't have health insurance- do you know exactly what percentage of uninsured health care people in America are illegal immigrants?

I was just reading this on Wikipedia;

"The debate about U.S. health care concerns questions of access, efficiency, and quality purchased by the high sums spent. The World Health Organization (WHO) in 2000 ranked the U.S. health care system first in both responsiveness and expenditure, but 37th in overall performance and 72nd by overall level of health (among 191 member nations included in the study).[8][9] The WHO study has been criticized both for its methodology and for a lack of correlation with user satisfaction ratings.[10][11] The CIA World Factbook ranked the United States 41st in the world for lowest infant mortality rate[12] and 45th for highest total life expectancy.[13] A recent study found that between 1997 and 2003, preventable deaths declined more slowly in the United States than in 18 other industrialized nations.[14] On the other hand, the National Health Interview Survey, released annually by the Centers for Disease Control's National Center for Health Statistics reported that approximately 66% of survey respondents said they were in "excellent" or "very good" health in 2006."

"Uninsured Americans are less likely to have regular health care and use preventive services. They are more likely to delay seeking care, resulting in more medical crises, which are more expensive than ongoing treatment for such conditions as diabetes and high blood pressure. A 2007 study published in JAMA concluded that uninsured people were less likely than the insured to receive any medical care after an accidental injury or the onset of a new chronic condition. The uninsured with an injury were also twice as likely as those with insurance to have received none of the recommended follow-up care, and a similar pattern held for those with a new chronic condition.[59] Uninsured patients are twice as likely to visit hospital emergency rooms as those with insurance; burdening a system meant for true emergencies with less-urgent care needs.[60]

"Another recent study by researchers with the American Cancer Society found that individuals who lacked private insurance were more likely to be diagnosed with late-stage cancer than those who had such insurance. This was true of both the uninsured as well as those covered by Medicaid. "Individuals without private insurance are not receiving optimum care in terms of cancer screening or timely diagnosis and follow-up with health care providers," study authors concluded."

"The health care system in the U.S. has a vast number of players ― there are hundreds, if not thousands, of insurance companies in the U.S.[68][29] This system has considerable administrative overhead, far greater than in nationalized, single-payer systems, such as Canada's. An oft-cited study by Harvard Medical School and the Canadian Institute for Health Information determined that some 31% of U.S. health care dollars, or more than $1,000 per person per year, went to health care administrative costs, nearly double the administrative overhead in Canada, on a percentage basis.[69]"

"In most states in the U.S., people seeking to purchase health insurance directly must undergo medical underwriting. Insurance companies seeking to mitigate the problem of adverse selection and manage their risk pools screen applicants for pre-existing conditions. Insurers may reject some applicants or quote increased rates for those with pre-existing conditions. Diseases that can make an individual uninsurable include serious conditions, such as arthritis, cancer, and heart disease, but also such common ailments as acne, being 20 pounds over or under weight, and old sports injuries.[78]

Proponents of medical underwriting argue that it ensures that individual health insurance premiums are kept as low as possible.[79] Critics of medical underwriting believe that it unfairly prevents people with relatively minor and treatable pre-existing conditions from obtaining health insurance.[80]

One large industry survey found that 13 percent of applicants for individual health insurance who went through medical underwriting were denied coverage in 2004. Declination rates increased significantly with age, rising from 5 percent for those under 18 to just under one-third for those aged 60 to 64.[81] Among those who were offered coverage, the study found that 76% received offers at standard premium rates, and 22% were offered higher rates.[82] The frequency of increased premiums also increased with age, so for applicants over 40, roughly half were affected by medical underwriting, either in the form of denial or increased premiums. In contrast, almost 90% of applicants in their 20s were offered coverage, and three-quarters of those were offered standard rates. Seventy percent of applicants age 60-64 were offered coverage, but almost half the time (40%) it was at an increased premium. The study did not address how many applicants who were offered coverage at increased rates chose to decline the policy. A study conducted by the Commonwealth Fund in 2001 found that, among those aged 19 to 64 who sought individual health insurance during the previous three years, the majority found it unaffordable, and less than a third ended up purchasing insurance. However, this study did not distinguish between consumers who were quoted increased rates due to medical underwriting and those who qualified for standard or preferred premiums.[83] Some states have outlawed medical underwriting as a prerequisite for individually purchased health coverage.[84] These states tend to have the highest premiums for individual health insurance.[85]"

"In the United States, health disparities are well documented in minority populations such as African Americans, Native Americans, Asian Americans, and Hispanics.[86] When compared to whites, these minority groups have higher incidence of chronic diseases, higher mortality, and poorer health outcomes. Among the disease-specific examples of racial and ethnic disparities in the United States is the cancer incidence rate among African Americans, which is 25% higher than among whites.[87] In addition, adult African Americans and Hispanics have approximately twice the risk as whites of developing diabetes. Minorities also have higher rates of cardiovascular disease, HIV/AIDS, and infant mortality than whites.[87]"

"Individual and institutional racism, along with the stigma of inferiority, can adversely affect health for minorites. Racism can also directly affect health in multiple ways. Residence in poor neighborhoods, racial bias in medical care, the stress of experiences of discrimination and the acceptance of the societal stigma of inferiority can have deleterious consequences for health.[88]

There is a great deal of research into inequalities in health care. In some cases these inequalities are caused by income disparities that result in lack of health insurance and other barriers to receiving services.[89] In other cases, inequalities in health care reflect a systemic bias in the way medical procedures and treatments are prescribed for different ethnic groups. Raj Bhopal writes that the history of racism in science and medicine shows that people and institutions behave according to the ethos of their times.[90] Nancy Krieger wrote that racism underlies unexplained inequities in health care, including treatment for heart disease,[91] renal failure,[92] bladder cancer,[93] and pneumonia.[94] Raj Bhopal writes that these inequalities have been documented in numerous studies. The consistent and repeated findings were that black Americans received less health care than white Americans ―particularly when the care involved expensive new technology. [95] However, one recent study has found that when minority and white patients use the same hospital, they are given the same standard of care."


And much more;

Health care in the United States - Wikipedia



So basically it sounds like your health care system has many serious issues, and some of the most problematic are not caused by immigration at all. IMHO The system is fundamentally flawed- the insurance companies have a monopoly over who gets insurance and who doesn't, regardless of whether they are an immigrant or not, and this is causing the cost of health care to go up etc.
Even if America didn't have illegal immigrant problems, there would still be masses of uninsured Americans and the health care system would still have problems/be flawed etc.

I'm not playing "what if" games either, your refusal to answer my scenario i put forward to you makes me believe you do not want to honestly answer it for certain reasons...

 

[Half-n-Half]

There are millions of uninsured citizens and they have to be treated even though they can not pay, not to mention all the illegals that HAVE to be given care even though they are CRIMINALS. I do not play what if games. I worked for what I have.

Their only crime is that they tried to improve their and/or their families life/lives. Legal immigration these days takes years to process, sometimes 20 years. Most people either: A) enter illegally, B) stay with a relative or marry a citizen, or C) get a visa and never leave.

So you worked for what you have, kudos to you. I try not to make assumptions like this, but I'm assuming you were born into a family much more well off than the average Mexican family. A good start definitely helps. You can even see this within our own country. Children who grow up in bad neighborhoods, slums, and "ghettos" tend to do far worse than those born in suburbs or rural areas.

Perhaps instead of barring the border, we should streamline the legalization process. Cut through the red tape and get rid of the massive backlog. Or, perhaps, make efforts to help the Mexican economy grow and improve.

I'm not saying immigration isn't an issue that can negatively affect us. I'm not even sure myself what my stance is on illegal immigration. There are just too many good points on both sides, both moral and logical.

 

[Tokis-Phoenix]

Their only crime is that they tried to improve their and/or their families life/lives. Legal immigration these days takes years to process, sometimes 20 years. Most people either: A) enter illegally, B) stay with a relative or marry a citizen, or C) get a visa and never leave.
So you worked for what you have, kudos to you. I try not to make assumptions like this, but I'm assuming you were born into a family much more well off than the average Mexican family. A good start definitely helps. You can even see this within our own country. Children who grow up in bad neighborhoods, slums, and "ghettos" tend to do far worse than those born in suburbs or rural areas.
Perhaps instead of barring the border, we should streamline the legalization process. Cut through the red tape and get rid of the massive backlog. Or, perhaps, make efforts to help the Mexican economy grow and improve.
I'm not saying immigration isn't an issue that can negatively affect us. I'm not even sure myself what my stance is on illegal immigration. There are just too many good points on both sides, both moral and logical.

I agree, streamlining the legalization process and/or helping the Mexican economy grow and improve are both fine idea's and the most likely to help the immigration problem for the better in my opinion at current .

 

[Goldiegirl]

Helping Mexico at the expense of America is insanity. And why all the "you voted for Bush so it's not like North Korea?" and then say help Mexico they are poor it's not their fault, well they voted for their president. Sound like people are still standing on both sides of the fence! Why should Mexicans get streamlined...sounds very unfair. Why can't my husband just stay in the USA and become an illegal, WHY because he isn't a criminal and HE follows the rules, then, so WHY should we have to wait in line longer, for being honest? So because one is poor gives you the right to get extra special treatment in the eyes of the law. Then lets all be poor and have a free for all.

Better yet send the illegal Mexicans to Canada and the UK! YAY!!!

 

[Mars Man]

Please do excuse me for stepping in here, as I am trying to clarify a few points.

As best I can tell, the OP is stating that the general USA government is allowing a certain volume of influx of people across the borders--especially that of Mexico. This allowance, in turn, is largely seen to be due to big business.

It might be good to get some statistical evidence from a number of relatively reliable sources out here before too many blanket statements are made. Also, it would likely be a productive task to try to more specifically lay out all the possible patterns of cross-path-intersection, influences, push-pull relationships, and so forth and so on.

If we were to just ride on our emotions here, we would probably miss the golden opportunity to make a well-rounded out discussion of this matter a more educational experience. I would love to dig into a full discussion which presented and reasoned on the various influences, historical developments over time, and present world situations that come into play here. (I don't mean 'join in the discussion' here, nearly as much as I mean 'read/study' the content of the discussion.

 

[Pachipro]

I agree with you that America's economy is very dependent on cheap immigrant labor, however i disagree that America has illegal immigrants because it wants them (my emphasis)- the reason why people like illegal Mexican immigrants as so many in America is simply because its extremely difficult to control who goes over the boarder, the immigrants are there because the American government fails to control its boarders.

It is very easy to control the southern boarders of the US without building a fence. Enforcement is what's needed and it is not there and the US government WILLINGLY fails to enforce the laws of the US.

Illegals come here because they know they have a free pass to do so and that once discovered, if they have not broken any laws, the local police are instructed, by Homeland Security and Immigrations and Customs Enforcement (ICE) (now there's an oxymoron for you!) to just let them go. They also know that there are many jobs that Americans used to have just waiting for them at major corporations. The major corporation WANT THEM and need them to improve their profits and bottom line!

Let me give you an example. Near my home there is Tyson Chicken processing plant. Some years ago an American could go there and get a job making about $9/hr to start. Not good, but not bad either. Also, they knew they could get health care and a 401k plan (retirement plan).

Today, that plant is mainly staffed by Mexicans and other foreigners making about $4-$6/hr with no health care, no 401k and no workman's compensation which saves the corporation tens of thousands in premiums. Tyson is a major corporation and they have sold the American worker out for increased profits with lower wages and no benefits by knowingly hiring illegals and the government turns a blind eye. After all Tyson is a major lobbiest in the halls of congress and probably greases the pockets of many a representative.

This is just not going on here in my little town, but in towns and cities all across America.

It is well documented that illegals live 15 - 30/house (less in apartments) and that they send most of their money home to their families in Mexico to the tune of $6 billion/year. If they get sick they just go to the local hospital where the staff is instructed (by law!) not to ask for ID or proof of citizenship and to give them the care that they need. Thus, many give false names and addresses and the taxpayer is held holding the bag. More than a few hospitals in California are closing because of this. They are going broke.

It is widly reported that illegals do the jobs Americans refuse to do! What BS! Americans will not do the job at such low wages and with no benefits like medical care.

Here is another example for white collar workers and those with degrees. Many major corporations are hiring people from India and across Asia with engineering degrees and other major degrees at pennies on the dollar what they pay Americans. In the US the average starting salary for an engineer is about US$58,000/yr. MAny companies are hiring foreigners for $25-$30,000/yr to start with no benefits! thereby saving hundreds of thousands, if not millions of dollars across the board and across all industries! What does this say to the average hard-working student who was promised a high paying job and who graduates with about $18,000 in student loan debt? It says, "F-ck You." That's what it says. We can get it cheaper and we don't need you!

Is it any wonder why Bill Gates was begging congress last week to allow more foreigners into the US to work for companies like his? It's because he can save millions that's why!

It's sad and it sucks! I'd hate to be a graduating student today as the outlook is dim, very dim.

Another example: You mark my words here. Ford Motor Co., for example, is looking to buy out some 30,000 union workers making $20 - 30/hr with full benefits and a pension plan. When those that take the buyout are gone, they will fill those jobs with $6-9/hr jobs with no benefits. Ford will save millions and their profits will increase and the American worker will be left in the dust. And soon the American worker will have to succumb and take that lousy job with no benefits just so they can feed their family!

Nissan recently did it and the new hires to replace those bought out are starting out at $9/hr instead of the typical $16/hr. And will less benefits!

Another example is that I can have my fairly large property mowed in the summertime by a hard working American for about $35 which is a fair price. However, last year I had 2 Mexicans knocking on my dooor offering to do it for $20! Of course I didn't take them up on their offer and still give it to the American trying to feed his family. However, more than a few in the neighborhood did and this guy is losing business!

When they live 20 to a house to save on expenses, the average American can't compete.

However, since the boarders are wide open and they are free to come here, albiet illegally, and no one will send them back home, and they are wanted, who could blame them? I would if I were them and needed to feed my family back home. The average illegal can make more in one year here (even at low wages) than he could make in 3 or 4 years back home.

But if an American raises a hand of protest against this and voices his/her opinion they are branded as racist pigs. The average american is in a no-win situation here and his lifestyle has no where to go but down!

Does anyone still think America is the land of gold? Only if you're from a third world country it is. If you are from the US you will soon find what it's like to live as those in the second world lives as the country is being taken down a notch. All of it planned.

 

[tokapi]

It is very easy to control the southern boarders of the US without building a fence. Enforcement is what's needed and it is not there and the US government WILLINGLY fails to enforce the laws of the US.

Absolutely,this country once repatriated many thousand Mexicans back to Mexico during The Great Depression of 1920's.

I think they have already reached Canada illegal by the thousands in recent years.

Law enforcement officers have to learn Spanish to accomodate these law-breaking newcomers in several southern American states ( N/S Carolinas & W/S Virginias etc ).

People nowadays dare to speak out against it vocally for fear of being perceived as racists.

 

[tokapi]

Does anyone still think America is the land of gold ?

First time in American history,there are some native-borns would consider live elsewhere.

 

[nice gaijin]

Has anyone noticed that Betsy Ross Patriots has yet to revisit the forum and defend her statements? I hope her convictions don't get shaken by a little opposition...

First time in American history,there are some native-borns would consider live elsewhere.

Not the first time by a long shot.

 

[tokapi]

She's probably working tirelessly for this cause offline,go girl

Oh,several thousand draft-dodgers sneaked into Canada during Vietnam conflict.Those young men rather not be in the USA.