Need a word or phrase translated?

[Elizabeth]

It seems rather redundant to have 問題 in there twice like that.
By the way, I believe that 関係 is an "oyaji kotoba". I'll leave what it means to your imagination....

Sorry, that was meant to be 人間関係。 This is getting to be too much work for one sentence....hope the actual problem is easier for you both !

 

[Fuumei]

Ok, I know there are a quite a few posts here about "Passive" grammar. Because of that, I don't believe I'll have to ask you all to explain yourselves again (for the most part). In this chapter of my book, I am learning the "Passive Form", or at least touching on the subject with the endings "押される" as opposed to "押す".

私は後ろのひとに押されたんです

So in this sentence, it would be grammatically incorrect to use "押したん"? ...and that is because "押された" means something like "has pushed"? At this point I'm not exactly clear on what the new passive form ending is supposed to mean. How should I look at it?

Also, 皆に画を褒められました. <- I thought during a passive sentence, you couldn't use a direct object marker unless it was a "Suffering Passive" as in you regretted an action. In this sentence, I don't believe someone or anyone is insinuated to be there regretting anything.

 

[undrentide]

Ok, I know there are a quite a few posts here about "Passive" grammar. Because of that, I don't believe I'll have to ask you all to explain yourselves again (for the most part). In this chapter of my book, I am learning the "Passive Form", or at least touching on the subject with the endings "押される" as opposed to "押す".

私は後ろのひとに押されたんです

So in this sentence, it would be grammatically incorrect to use "押したん"? ...and that is because "押された" means something like "has pushed"? At this point I'm not exactly clear on what the new passive form ending is supposed to mean. How should I look at it?

The basic structure of the passive mode is
passive + by ___________
＿＿＿＿に ～される

私は【後ろのひとに】押されたんです
I was pushed [by someone behind me].

If you use 押した (active, not passive), you have to change the sentence structure:
後ろのひとが私を押したんです
Someone behind me pushed me.

Also, 皆に画を褒められました. <- I thought during a passive sentence, you couldn't use a direct object marker unless it was a "Suffering Passive" as in you regretted an action. In this sentence, I don't believe someone or anyone is insinuated to be there regretting anything.

It is more like "have/got ____ed".
【皆に】画を褒められました
I got my painting admired [by everyone].
= my painting was admired by everyone.

In case of passive, the direct object the original (?) active sentence becomes the subject.
e.g.
後ろのひとが私を押したんです
↓
私は後ろのひとに押されたんです

皆に画を褒められました
I got my painting admired by everyone.
↑
私の画は皆に褒められました
My painting was admired by everyone.
↑
皆は私の画を褒めました。
Everyone admired my painting.

In this case, it is not always suffering, but could express being rewarded as well. The structure itself is neutral, and whether it is suffering/rewarded depends on the context.

 

[Fuumei]

Ah, thanks for doing a wonderful job of explaining that.

(Edited for being へっぽこな猿). カルフォルニアには随分暑くなりましたからね.

 

[Fuumei]

冬 雪が降られると.....

What would be the best way to interpret the passive form of "furu=to fall" in this sentence? "In winter, when the snow 'was going to be falling'... "

いいんですか ☝

 

[undrentide]

冬 雪が降られると.....
What would be the best way to interpret the passive form of "furu=to fall" in this sentence? "In winter, when the snow 'was going to be falling'... "
いいんですか ☝

I think the original sentence should read
冬、雪に降られると....
This is the "suffering passive".

Since in English language we use this special "it" as the subject of the verb in a weather-related sentence (e.g. it rains, it snows, it is hot, etc.), it is rather difficult to show even the literal translation of Japanese...
雪が降る
The snow falls
雪に降られる
We have the snow fallen. (We have snow.)
This passive implies that the speaker (or people in general) is inconvenienced by getting the snow.

冬、雪が降ると...
When it snows in winter,
冬、雪に降られると...
(Though I don't want it) when it snows in winter,

By the way, didn't you ask a question in your previous post? I did not have enough time to reply yesterday. If it is already solved, it is OK but if you still need further explanation, please don't hesitate to ask.

 

[Fuumei]

I think the original sentence should read
冬、雪に降られると....
This is the "suffering passive".

You are correct, I put the wrong particle in there.

By the way, didn't you ask a question in your previous post? I did not have enough time to reply yesterday. If it is already solved, it is OK but if you still need further explanation, please don't hesitate to ask.

They were questions that really didn't need to be asked, so I'll give you two real ones in hopes that you'll keep doing a beautiful job with your brackets and such (also forgive me for lack to kanji with this post, I'm not at the same computer at the moment):

1. keikosan wa johnsonsan kara hana o okuraremashita.
This is the "Suffering Passive" form that is more of a Reward Passive, correct?

2. shinju no yubiwa o toraremashita
"He took a pearl ring". This example is "Suffering Passive" because it takes the particle "o" and not "ga" correct?

3. ... iwarete imasu (passive form of iu (say, speak)). In this situation "has been said" would be fine correct? What would happen to the translation if it were "iwarete ita"?

Finally 4:

雪に降られる
We have the snow fallen. (We have snow.)

I forgot to ask you more clearly about this one. What part of that sentence makes you say the "rareru" ending causes the translation to mean "have snow" and not just "the snow is going to end up falling"? That should about do it I think for awhile. Tons of thanks in advance.

I'm sorry if my questions end up being redundant, as I'm forced to master these forms with limited examples and material.

 

[Spyder93090]

"Bless You" wa Nihongo de nanto imasuka ?!?! (After sneezing)

 

[Kyoko_desu]

We don't really say anything particular when someone sneezes.
Sometimes "daijyoubu"? cus sneezing is sometimes a sign that he(she)'s caught a cold.

 

[Spyder93090]

We don't really say anything particular when someone sneezes.
Sometimes "daijyoubu"? cus sneezing is sometimes a sign that he(she)'s caught a cold.

Majide ?! Yoshi !! Arigato ...

 

[undrentide]

They were questions that really didn't need to be asked, so I'll give you two real ones in hopes that you'll keep doing a beautiful job with your brackets and such (also forgive me for lack to kanji with this post, I'm not at the same computer at the moment):

OK, let me try.

1. keikosan wa johnsonsan kara hana o okuraremashita.
This is the "Suffering Passive" form that is more of a Reward Passive, correct?

ケイコさんはジョンソンさんから花を贈られました。
I think this could be either suffering or reward depending on the situation.
If Keiko san was happy to get the flowers from him, it means reward and if she is not very fond of him she may find the flowers nuisance - in that case it has a negatiev connotation (suffering).

Japanese really is a context-driven language, and whether the passive is "suffering/reward' or not can be judged only from the context, unless the verb itself has damaging meaning (such as stolen, for instance) which means suffering..

2. shinju no yubiwa o toraremashita
"He took a pearl ring". This example is "Suffering Passive" because it takes the particle "o" and not "ga" correct?

真珠の指輪を盗られました。
It is "suffering passive" but we can tell so not because of the grammatical structure (particle in this case) but simply because it says "stolen" which nobody finds pleasant under normal circumstances.

3. ... iwarete imasu (passive form of iu (say, speak)). In this situation "has been said" would be fine correct? What would happen to the translation if it were "iwarete ita"?

Finally 4:

雪に降られる
We have the snow fallen. (We have snow.)

I forgot to ask you more clearly about this one. What part of that sentence makes you say the "rareru" ending causes the translation to mean "have snow" and not just "the snow is going to end up falling"? That should about do it I think for awhile. Tons of thanks in advance.

Strictly speaking, I don't think there's any way to translate this sentence into a single English sentence with the same connotation, simply because there's no "suffering passive" in English language.

The reason I added "we have snow" in bracket is because "we have the snow fallen" is not really correct as English.

I think "end up" can be one of the options to express Japanese "suffering passive" in English because it implies some negative feeling, but the problem here is it is "we", not "it (snow)" who is suffering (or who is going to suffer) - it is "we" who get the inconvenience, problem, etc. from the snow.

In other words,
雪に降られる
means "we have snow/it snows (when we don't want any snow/when the snow is to give us problems/cause inconvenience).

I hope this clarify your question - but I have a feeling that it may cause further confusion...

 

[Fuumei]

雪に降られる
means "we have snow/it snows (when we don't want any snow/when the snow is to give us problems/cause inconvenince).

Ok, I understand this type of sentence now (I beileve). By using "に" and these special types of verbs "furu" for instance, you can't translate it as "i fall by snow". But "に" instead of meaning "by (someone)" it just signifies the object/person doing the regrettable action(which in this case, always ends in the passive form."られる/られた")

So in short, I believe I have learned that the passive does not take a direct object "o" unless it is what we've been calling it "Suffering/Reward". Or have I yet again thought too hard?

Two final things:
雪が降られる <- this is not grammatically correct unless it was in the past tense form "rareta", correct?

The best interpretation for "Iwarete ite" and "sukurarete ite" would be "has been said" and "has been made/has been being made" correct?

Ok, sorry for making you type out a novel undrentide. It's late and I hope I made myself clear by what I typed.

 

[undrentide]

Ok, I understand this type of sentence now (I beileve). By using "に" and these special types of verbs "furu" for instance, you can't translate it as "i fall by snow". But "に" instead of meaning "by (someone)" it just signifies the object/person doing the regrettable action(which in this case, always ends in the passive form."られる/られた")
So in short, I believe I have learned that the passive does not take a direct object "o" unless it is what we've been calling it "Suffering/Reward". Or have I yet again thought too hard?

Hmmm, I think you got it right...

I'm not sure "に" instead of meaning "by (someone)" part, but you're absolutely right about the rest, i.e. it just signifies the object/person doing the regrettable action(which in this case, always ends in the passive form."られる/られた")

Two final things:
雪が降られる <- this is not grammatically correct unless it was in the past tense form "rareta", correct?

To me, it looks incorrect whatever the tense is.
It sounds as if something other than snow is falling and doing some "harm" to the snow...

The best interpretation for "Iwarete ite" and "tsukurarete ite" would be "has been said" and "has been made/has been being made" correct?

...or "is being said/made".
Te-iru means it is on-going, not completed, or in that status.
It can be, but not necessarily, present perfect.

Ok, sorry for making you type out a novel undrentide. It's late and I hope I made myself clear by what I typed.

Oh, never mind! I'm enjoying this "challenge", really.

 

[Fuumei]

Hmmm, I think you got it right...
I'm not sure "に" instead of meaning "by (someone)" part,

I mean sentences like:
私は【後ろのひとに】押されたんです
"i was [pushed] by(に) [someone/something]"

That usage of "に" isn't the same as: 雪に降られる, correct?
I think this is the source of my confusion, coupled with the change in definition of the passive ending.

Also,
雪が降られる

To me, it looks incorrect whatever the tense is.
It sounds as if something other than snow is falling and doing some "harm" to the snow...

Sorry to come back to this awful sentence again..

Is this because in the sentence: 雪が降られる that the particles "Ga" and "o" are interchangeable? Just trying to wrap my head around these particles gives me headaches.

 

[Elizabeth]

雪が降られる
Sorry to come back to this awful sentence again..
Is this because in the sentence: 雪が降られる that the particles "Ga" and "o" are interchangeable? Just trying to wrap my head around these particles gives me headaches.

雪に降られる if it followed the standard rules of a passive formation where inanimate actors take the で particle （電話で起こされる） would naturally come out 雪で降られる。But ふる is a common exception and the usage is identical in English to adversely "Be snowed on" or idiomatically are/will be "caught in the snow." 雪が降られる and 雪を降られる neither make sense to me as long as the snow cannot fall onto itself or something else fall onto the snow.

Snow has fallen is simply reporting that it fell in the past, or 雪が降った。

 

[Elizabeth]

Two final things:
雪が降られる <- this is not grammatically correct unless it was in the past tense form "rareta", correct?

There is no set construction that depends on only the past being acceptable that I'm familiar with. You will sometimes find other intransitive forms also operate without a passive counterpart (晴れる、始まる）、or at least one that isn't used in the reward/passive sense because the past alone indicates an action having already happened naturally.

Does this make the English you feel should be behind 雪が降られる any clearer or more translatable ? Otherwise, sorry for such a lame attempt...

 

[Fuumei]

Does this make the English you feel should be behind 雪が降られる any clearer or more translatable ? Otherwise, sorry for such a lame attempt...

My book hasn't touched much on the subject of "Transitive/Intransitive" verbs. I know transitive can use a direct object, and the Intransitive can't.
I realize at this point it's a bit embarrassing for me to ask this, but do I have these translations right? As far as I am in my studies, I seem to lack fundamental knowledge of basic grammar, or at least have forgotten some.
dare ga oshita n desu ka = Who pushed you?
dare o oshita n desu ka = Who did you push?
That is correct isn't it? My head is spinning from all this thinking, and I'm starting to doubt my ability to comprehend anything.
Anyway, with "yuki ga furareru" So, "furu" is an idiom that means "snowed on". So with that sentence in mind, it is "Has snowed on snow"? I realize it isn't proper, I'm just doing my best to see eye to eye with you on this one. Sorry in advance.

 

[Glenn]

Yes, your "pushing" sentences are right.

The ga-phrase of a passive comes from the object position of an active sentence, and 降る isn't a transitive verb, so it doesn't take objects. Therefore, there is no such sentence as 雨が降られた, unless for some reason you are showing respect to the rain, in which case it would probably be お雨が降られた anyway. Does that straighten things out?

 

[Fuumei]

Yes, your "pushing" sentences are right.
The ga-phrase of a passive comes from the object position of an active sentence, and 降る isn't a transitive verb, so it doesn't take objects. Therefore, there is no such sentence as 雨が降られた, unless for some reason you are showing respect to the rain, in which case it would probably be お雨が降られた anyway. Does that straighten things out?

Yes, that does make sense. Just to confirm whether or not I'm still thinking the right definition for the passive forms...

私は先生に叱られた = I was scolded by my teacher,
私は先生に叱られる = I get scolded by my teacher. (not sure on this one)

I'm just trying to differentiate the meaning between "shimashita" versus "saremashita", "shikarimashita" vs "shikararemashita".

My book has a transitive and intransitive chapter next I think, or the one after. So I'll be getting over a nice stumbling block there as well.

At this point, this is all that is bugging me now I believe. The rest I pretty much get I think. Much thanks to everyone so far who have helped me. I realize it's difficult teaching a language to an airhead
Itsumo osewa ni natte imasu.

 

[Glenn]

I think it's a bit strange that you're learning about transitive/intransitive verbs after you learn about passives.

I think "I am scolded by my teacher" is more parallel to the structure of the first one (English example), but other than that it looks fine. Maybe 先生によく叱られる would be more natural a sentence, but that's a different issue.

する -> do
される -> be done

Just replace "do" with the meaning of the verb you're dealing with, and you should have no problems.

 

[Elizabeth]

I think it's a bit strange that you're learning about transitive/intransitive verbs after you learn about passives.
I think "I am scolded by my teacher" is more parallel to the structure of the first one (English example), but other than that it looks fine. Maybe 先生によく叱られる would be more natural a sentence, but that's a different issue.

The first - "Was scolded"
Second I think is most naturally "Will be scolded"

 

[Elizabeth]

I think it's a bit strange that you're learning about transitive/intransitive verbs after you learn about passives.

That was always the presentation in my texts too. No other organization is meaningful or logical. Transitive/Intransitive in chapters 7 or 8 and passives in 15 or 16.

 

[Fuumei]

I think it's a bit strange that you're learning about transitive/intransitive verbs after you learn about passives.

僕もそう思います.... 然し, I'm getting a huge "heads-up" from this. Obviously I'm being taken way beyond the book by all of your help. But I think that's the best way.

The first - "Was scolded"
Second I think is most naturally "Will be scolded"

Thank you. All those extra te -iru & te-ita forms were causing me to be foggy as to the meaning of those basic forms.

感謝します (I hope I used this in the right situation)

 

[Fuumei]

The first - "Was scolded"
Second I think is most naturally "Will be scolded"

Hopefully you can clarify this for me:

anata no soba ni irarete yokatta!
anata no soba ni ite yokatta!

What is the difference here of the "iru" forms? They both mean something like "was there [at your side]" The first one is one I picked up by ear recently, and was curious if it had any special meaning or if it was grammatically correct as opposed to the second sentence.

------ edit (oops, I think this is the conditional form of iru, "could be")

 

[Glenn]

いられて is the -te form of いられる, the potential form of いる. The first one means "I'm glad I could be by your side." The second is "I'm glad to be by your side."