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Thank you Dave and Elizabeth. I think I share your general feelings Elizabeth, but I just wanted to know what the best way to tell someone in a formal situation (i.e. a teacher, boss, etc.) that someone in your immediate family wasn't alive anymore without sounding coarse or like a 2 year-old. But, you know, with Japanese it's possible to sound rude when being too polite in regards to people from within your "circle"...

So the thing about 死んだ and 亡くなる helped also; thanks Dave.

I would guess the same about adding しまった. Probably I think too much about this stuff sometimes (isn't it unfortunate when most people die? Does leaving out that suffix imply you don't care? etc.)

I think I just like to drive myself crazy sometimes. :emoji_blush:
 
Apple Bomb said:
I would guess the same about adding しまった. Probably I think too much about this stuff sometimes (isn't it unfortunate when most people die? Does leaving out that suffix imply you don't care? etc.)
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亡くなってしまった may be for especially tragic cases or someone that has put up a courageous but ultimately unrewarded fight for life. From what I understand, the feeling is not that much different than the regular usage just that it may not be appropriate for certain situations.

I wouldn't say 亡くなってしまった for my 100 year old great aunt that died this week for instance, because, well, it would seem slightly bizarre at an entirely natural death and the sense of being 'sorry' can be expressed without difficulty through normal condolences. Another category of cases where there may be a sense of sadness mixed with relief for an end to their extreme suffering.


To answer your question, though, the only time I've seen 死んでしまった used was at the death by accident of a ten year old household cat.
They clearly wanted to distinguish their affection for him at a level above the 死んだ of wild animals and even how some pet owners would react. :(
 
FYI, a passage from Mitsuko Kimura's 近頃気になる日本語：

昨年段階ですでに気づいていたが、近頃とみに「亡くなる」ということばが多用されている。昨年ではまだ「死亡した」ということばも使われていたが、今年は「死亡した」という言葉を聴くと「アレッ」と思うほどである。私自身は「亡くなる」は「死ぬ」の尊敬語だと思っていたので、何でもかんでも「亡くなる」というのはおかしいと思っていた。特に、身内が死んだときに「亡くなる」を使うことには、ずっと以前から違和感を抱いていたが、老若男女の別なく、現在は「亡くなる」が使われている。
「死ぬ」ではあまりにも直接的で何とかやわらかく婉曲に言いたい気持ちがあって、ていねい語のつもりで「亡くなる」を使うのだろうが、どんな対象に対しても無差別に使うことは、私には耐えられない。たとえば、本年7 月に聞いた例に「（犬の）クロが悪性腫瘍のために亡くなりました」がある。犬にわざわざ「亡くなる」と言うことはないと思う。また小学生の子供が東京大空襲のビデオを見せられた後「（あんなふうに）自分が亡くなったらいやだと思った」といっていたが、子どもが、自分が死ぬことを「自分が亡くなる」ということに違和感を覚えないか。多くの言葉には同じ意味を持つ複数の言葉があるが、「死ぬ」に相当するやまとことばは思いつかない（輸入された中国語である漢字の熟語には、死亡、死去、逝去、他界、鬼籍に入る、薨去、崩御等がある）。このことが「亡くなる」の多用につながってると考える。そういえば、2 ～ 3 年前に新聞の広告に某タレントとそのペットの話が出ていたが、そのペットの経歴が最後に「～年～月、逝去」と出ていたので、新聞社に抗議した記憶がある。しかし、漱石が「我輩は猫である」のモデルの猫が死んだとき、友だちにあてた死亡通知に「逝去」と書いてあることから、猫には「逝去」を使ってもよいのだろうか。
岩波国語辞典によると「亡くなる」は「死ぬ」の婉曲表現とあり、新明解国語辞典でも「死ぬ」の婉曲表現で例文として「親が亡くなる」と書いてある。新潮国語辞典の例文にはすでに古今集で「親が亡くなる」との例文が出ている（とすると、昔から親が死んだときでも「亡くなる」が使われていたなら、私が考えていた「亡くなる」は尊敬語というのは間違いということになる）。そこで、誰かが「死ぬ」ではあまりにもむきつけすぎるので、丁寧にいうつもりでだれかれかまわず「亡くなる」といったところ、人々が早速それにとびついて使い始め、あっという間に（この一年で）広まったと考えられる。
Click to expand...
http://appsv.main.teikyo-u.ac.jp/tosho/mkimura23.pdf
 
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moop

I got one!

Am translating a whole music article, so I might be posting a few times on this thread. so what does THIS mean?:

頭を合わせずソッポを向いたまま、もちろん握手もなしに初めざるをえなかったインタヴューは、最初の３０分間はただ質問を揶揄されるのみ。

I know the individual words, but the full meaning of this sentence escapes me. it's about the start of an interview with The Cure... I think. but the terms go all *whoosh* over my head.
 
undrentide said:
Thank you for quoting the interesting article!
:cool:
I think the same goes with あげる／やる to pets or one's own children...
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I agree. I hate it when people use Japanese incorrectly. I hate it even more that they don't realize it.

Another one that makes me want to strangle people is

おられる。

I understand what the person is trying to say, but there is a word in the language for that: いらっしゃる. If you don't like that, there's おいでになる.

The worst thing is that these people think that they're being polite, but you if you say that a dog 逝去s on the same level that you do to be polite to a person, you are calling people dogs. How is that polite?

(sorry for the short rant)
 
Mikawa Ossan said:
I agree. I hate it when people use Japanese incorrectly. I hate it even more that they don't realize it.
Another one that makes me want to strangle people is
おられる。
I understand what the person is trying to say, but there is a word in the language for that: いらっしゃる. If you don't like that, there's おいでになる.
The worst thing is that these people think that they're being polite, but you if you say that a dog 逝去s on the same level that you do to be polite to a person, you are calling people dogs. How is that polite?
(sorry for the short rant)
Click to expand...
Hear, hear! Can't agree with you more!! 👍
 
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undrentide said:
I think the same goes with あげる／やる to pets or one's own children...
Click to expand...
It's a really interesting phenomenon. I try to resist using あげる for anyone's kids, but it can't even really be called 'incorrect usage' anymore. More a change in the language that has made it firmly established as a woman's word over a period of like fifty or sixty years. ☝
 
Elizabeth said:
It's a really interesting phenomenon. I try to resist using あげる for anyone's kids, but it can't even really be called 'incorrect usage' anymore. More a change in the language that has made it firmly established as a woman's word over a period of like fifty or sixty years. ☝
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Elizabeth,

undrentide said it in reference to "one's own" pet or children. I would use "ageru" to children of others, too, but not in reference of my own.
 
epigene said:
Elizabeth,
undrentide said it in reference to "one's own" pet or children. I would use "ageru" to children of others, too, but not in reference of my own.
Click to expand...
Oh, OK I hadn't realize that distinction previously. This was the 1989 textbook definition I was going by:

あげる＝For people of equal or slightly lower status
やる＝For intimate people (younger siblings? etc) and people of clearly lower status, as well as pets, etc.
 
Mikawa Ossan said:
Another one that makes me want to strangle people is

おられる
Click to expand...

I'm glad you said that, because that one's been driving me crazy for a while. I never could understand the use of a humble form for other people used in a slightly honorific form. Wouldn't they cancel each other out? Just say いる in that case.
 
shishishu said:
頭を合わせずソッポを向いたまま、もちろん握手もなしに初めざるをえなかったインタヴューは、最初の３０分間はただ質問を揶揄されるのみ
Click to expand...

"The interview, which I had to start with their backs turned to me, not having made eye contact, and of course without having shaken hands, was nothing but having my questions ridiculed for the first 30 minutes."

Not sure exactly what 頭を合わせる means here, so I took at stab at it with "make eye contact." Of course, the translation is sloppy, but it should give you something to work with at any rate.
 
Glenn said:
"The interview, which I had to start with their backs turned to me, not having made eye contact, and of course without having shaken hands, was nothing but having my questions ridiculed for the first 30 minutes."

Not sure exactly what 頭を合わせる means here, so I took at stab at it with "make eye contact." Of course, the translation is sloppy, but it should give you something to work with at any rate.
Click to expand...
I think it's most likely a mistake for 顔を合わせず, which is basically the same thing anyway saying "Without looking me in the face (meeting face to face) they turned away from me...."
 
Er... that is what it is in the original. I just used the base form to show it was the phrase I wasn't sure about, not the conjugation.
 
Glenn said:
Er... that is what it is in the original. I just used the base form to show it was the phrase I wasn't sure about, not the conjugation.
Click to expand...
Yeah, I know you weren't sure about the phrase, what I was trying to say was that I'm not sure 頭を合わせる is legitimate to begin with. At least it hasn't come up in anything I've been able to search or the native speakers I've been able to ask about it.

The sentence itself is in a fairly 'literary' mode, though, so it could be something simply too arcane or 'far out' that hasn't reached the general public yet.
☝ At the very least 顔をあわせず should be an OK substitute.
 
I just decided to do the little research I was too lazy to do earlier, and found the following:

Progressive和英辞典
慣用－顔を合わせる
１）彼らは顔を合わせればいつも口喧嘩をする
They never meet without quarreling with each other.

２）恥ずかしくてあの人とは顔を合わせられない
I am too embarrassed to see him.

３）今度また失敗したら友達に合わせる顔がない
How can I face my friends if I fail again?

広辞苑
（慣）顔を合せる
（１）人と会う。面と向かい合う。
（２）対戦する。

大辞林
――を合わ・せる
（１）会う。
「毎日―・せている」
（２）（試合などで）対戦する。
（３）（「顔を合わせられない」の形で）面目なくて会えない。顔が合わせられない。

So it seems I was at least pretty close.
 
shishishu said:
"頭を合わせずソッポを向いたまま、もちろん握手もなし に初めざるをえなかったインタヴューは、最初の３０分間はただ質問を揶揄されるのみ.
Click to expand...


Glenn said:
"The interview, which I had to start with their backs turned to me, not having made eye contact, and of course without having shaken hands, was nothing but having my questions ridiculed for the first 30 minutes."

Not sure exactly what 頭を合わせる means here, so I took at stab at it with "make eye contact." Of course, the translation is sloppy, but it should give you something to work with at any rate.
Click to expand...
"頭を合わせずソッポを向いたまま、もちろん握手もなし に初めざるをえなかったインタヴューは、最初の３０分間はただ質問を揶揄されるのみ。" This should read like this, "顔を合わせずソッポを向いたまま、もちろん握手もなし に始めざるをえなかったインタヴューは、最初の３０分間はただ質問を揶揄されるのみ。"

"初め" should have been "始め".
 
FrustratedDave said:
"頭を合わせずソッポを向いたまま、もちろん握手もなし に初めざるをえなかったインタヴューは、最初の３０分間はただ質問を揶揄されるのみ。" This should read like this, "顔を合わせずソッポを向いたまま、もちろん握手もなし に始めざるをえなかったインタヴューは、最初の３０分間はただ質問を揶揄されるのみ。"
"初め" should have been "始め".
Click to expand...


Wait! you were right. It shoulda been 顔を合わせず. and 始めざる.

Wow... they started the interview without eye contact and with their backs to the interviewer and such? bahaha. That's pretty rude.
 
FrustratedDave said:
Interesting article, however I don't find it to be a good resemblance of how society is currently thinking in regards to this. Just my oppinion.🙂
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I was going to ask on the times being referred to, also. Like with あげる、 the language has become 丁寧すぎる (too soft and 'nonoffensive') to the point that what used to be standard cannot be dealt with normally so is naturally perceived as 乱暴すぎる (excessively harsh and unseemly)。
 
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Hello everybody, just a quick question.. recently I've been hearing people saying ひょとして a lot.. especially in anime. Does it have the same meaning as "まさか" or such?

Searched google for "hyotoshite", only one result, but "ひょとして" gets heaps more results.. Does anybody know?

thankes
 
kawaiisan said:
Hello everybody, just a quick question.. recently I've been hearing people saying ひょとして a lot.. especially in anime. Does it have the same meaning as "まさか" or such?

Searched google for "hyotoshite", only one result, but "ひょとして" gets heaps more results.. Does anybody know?

Thanks
Click to expand...

It's ひょっとして (hyottoshite) not ひょとして.
It means "by any chance, by any remote chance, by some chance (or other), do you happen to" according to 英辞郎 https://www.alc.co.jp
It is used to suggest possibility where it seems to be unlikely.
まさか has strong negative connotation.
 

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