National Fervor Returning to Japan?

Emoni · 29 Dec 2006

http://news.yahoo.com/s/csm/20061228/wl_csm/onationalism

I just read this, and figured I'd test the waters and see the opinions of those on JRef on this. I'm mostly hoping for the opinions of the more veteran posters. I left Japan right before Abe was elected, and while he does seem to be energizing Japan, ideas such as the pomotion of nationalism in schools that I have heard about somewhat worries me.

Now, there have always been more extreme political parties in Japan, and the freedom for that seems to be more so than even in the United States; however, it seems that the sense of nationalism might be on the rise. I believe the article to be a slight bit exagurated though.

Why am I posting? I am curious to the response to this article and how accurate you believe it to be (from those with real experience with Japan.) Is there a rise to nationalism in Japan? Is this a dangerous path or good for energizing Japan?

pipokun · 29 Dec 2006

That story, reinforced by textbooks that downplay or deny Japan's role in invading Korea and Manchuria, rang loudly in the 1960s, '70s, and '80s, and ignored as the economy boomed in the late 1980s.

All I can say is that the staff writer does not read the textbooks and he should know more about the far-left movement like the ones in other countries back in the 60's and 70's.
Just go to Tampa, Florida. If you're lucky, you can meet a ball player, Hideki Matsui, in the spring camp as well as Japanese self defense force members there. This is also a post-war result.

yukio_michael · 30 Dec 2006

[...]including the idea that the CIA sent the Beatles to Japan in 1966 to dissipate an anti-US mood and "emasculate" Japanese youths.

Oh my. ...and why would the US send a British band? Wouldn't we send Elvis??

Thinking about this, if Japan wants to invigorate its youth, it should make the passage from youth to adulthood easier for Japanese males, and create more, and more equal opportunities for Japanese women.

Japanese men are emasculated by the time they begin work. They've worked hard all their lives, through school and college, and what they look forward to is more rigid and strict discipline throughout work. They also enjoy an overall negative opinion, as being sexist, weak, or overly dominating, depending on who you ask, and what day you ask them. It's hard for them to win. I'm not saying it's ALL bad, but I don't know many Japanese people who say that they love their working environment, it's just something they've come to accept.

This is why you have people stitching teddy bears on themselves and hanging out in Harajuku. This is why you have freeters. This is why people have such a strong attachment to fantasy. This is why manga can be so popular an escape mechanism, especially for women... Simply, there are major aspects of Japanese adult life, like there are aspects of many different peoples lives everywhere, that are unfulfilling, and that the alternative is to avoid confronting these issues, because they are 'traditional'...

...this is why, since World War II, people are expected to work extra for less pay--- This is EXPECTED of you, and it's pinned on of all things, tradition, in order to use a sort of nationalism to get people to fall in line.

Regardless. There is a place for keigo in the workplace, we can keep strong traditions, but Japan has to address the issues of self-fulfillment, and happiness in its working population. The remedy thus far, like many many places in the world, is to fill the void with consumerism.

ed: Nationalism also breeds a sense of expected sacrifice which makes things like longer hours for less pay seem like noble deeds in service to your country.

The United States uses this sort of lingo, 'patriotism', to wrap concepts with the idea that being against a certain concept, say war, or invasion, is to be essentially un-patriotic.

caster51 · 30 Dec 2006

Difference between patriotism of Japan and patriotism of other country.
at first, There is a society and then, the individual exist...
The United States is opposite....
The enemy is always necessary for the United States patriotism for that.
The enemy is not necessary for the patriotism of Japan.
The patriotism of Japan is to create the society that the people happily do more.
that is ,There is no individual if there is no community or society.
Strength of the community in Japan is proportional to strength of "Spirit of harmony", and American public's (nation) strength is proportional to strength of individual "Competition".
The patriotism of Japan strengthens the unity of the Japanese.

the country where need an enemy might warn japanese patriotism because they consider same

Goldiegirl · 30 Dec 2006

As a US citizen I don't need an enemy to be Patriotic. I love my country, and I don't hate anyone to feel that way. It's not wise to use words like "never" when they are just an opinion.

Emoni · 30 Dec 2006

caster51 said:
Difference between patriotism of Japan and patriotism of other country.
at first, There is a society and then, the individual exist...
The United States is opposite....
The enemy is always necessary for the United States patriotism for that.
The enemy is not necessary for the patriotism of Japan.
The patriotism of Japan is to create the society that the people happily do more.
that is ,There is no individual if there is no community or society.
Strength of the community in Japan is proportional to strength of "Spirit of harmony", and American public's (nation) strength is proportional to strength of individual "Competition".
The patriotism of Japan strengthens the unity of the Japanese.
the country where need an enemy might warn japanese patriotism because they consider same

I'm by no means a supporter of patriotic rhetoric, but I have to say some of the statements you are making are seriously lacking in explaination. We always need an enemy? Japan doesn't? Would you care to explain more?

I'm aware of Matsui... however I'm also really aware that this is one vague stretch.

Thanks for the posts, I just hope for a deeper explaination than unsupported opinions. Example supported opinions are much more interesting, even if disagreed with.

yukio_michael · 30 Dec 2006

caster51 said:
The enemy is always necessary for the United States patriotism for that. The enemy is not necessary for the patriotism of Japan.

You might think differently if you read Mishima Yukio's book, Patriotism. I'm sorry I don't have a Japanese title. But again, what you say has no bearing in actual fact... Why would you think American patriotism requires an enemy? If you look at both World War I, AND World War II, the United States were both times very aprehensive about going to war and didn't participate until later in each conflict.

caster51 said:
The patriotism of Japan is to create the society that the people happily do more. that is ,There is no individual if there is no community or society.

Isn't that what I said? Isn't nationalism, patriotism used as a means to control thought---? The United States is simply in a position where its population isn't REQUIRED to sacrifice anything... Japan's dismal economy dictates that the population abide by a certain set of rules in order to get by... I don't know many people in the United States who would feel good about their lives having to shop at 99(cent) stores for dinner.

caster51 · 30 Dec 2006

If you assume that it is patriotism to wish a strong society and to make itﾂ、The United States patriotism is to defeat it to the rival by the competition.

Patriotism is the most important spirit related to the fate of the nation for
China and South Korea.

China has many different race groups.
Therefore, a comprehensible, common spirit is necessary for them.

It is impossible to create a common spirit to 1.3 billion with different sense of
values that exceeds 60 reces.
To be the easiest and effective are to make strong "Enemy".
To make Japan an enemy, China builds the patriotism pavilion in the whole
country.
The uplift of the anti-Japanese sentiment is aimed at.

The history of South Korea is a history of rule.
The race is divided into parts and it exists in hostile relations in the south and
north.

Patriotism is necessary for national unity in such the same race confrontation
as the history to be ruled.
The easiest method is to make Japan that remains the memory of rule an enemy.

Emoni · 30 Dec 2006

caster51 said:
China has many different race groups.
Therefore, a comprehensible, common spirit is necessary for them.
It is impossible to create a common spirit to 1.3 billion with different sense of
values that exceeds 60 reces.
To be the easiest and effective are to make strong "Enemy".

Patriotism is necessary for national unity in such the same race confrontation
as the history to be ruled.
The easiest method is to make Japan that remains the memory of rule an enemy.

Wait a second... if race is a factor, I'm sorry to put this to you, then Japan is going to be turning on itself as well. Japan DOES include, while limited, mixed ethnic groups. Okinawans, the small amount of Ainu, and do I even need to mention the large number of Koreans and Chinese who are just as much a part of Japan as the Japanese?

You're going to have to explain a lot more of the basis of this "patriotism" that you are referring to because it is turning into grouping races against eachother on either side. This is also EXACTLY the dangers of nationalism as well, and an issue that has been a problem in Japan for some time especially for immigrants.

pipokun · 30 Dec 2006

What if you would meet a teacher saying in your country...
"No Stars and Stripes in public schools!!!"
"I have to give you a lesson to sing the national anthem today."
I just thought they were just weird.

Mrjones · 30 Dec 2006

Well I quess everyone who is imigrant turn out to be little bit more a side with native country. the thing is probably that there still is racism everywhere, and the good are those who fight agaisnt in their own country.

caster51 · 30 Dec 2006

Wait a second...

in case of china, If there is no CCp, can they unite....?
chinese is more individualism than american

caster51 · 30 Dec 2006

if race is a factor, I'm sorry to put this to you, then Japan is going to be turning on itself as well. Japan DOES include

their idea is the same as harmony of wajin.
japanese already concider them(ainu, okinawan) same race(jomon DNA)...

even okinawan and ainu think that mother country is Japan

Mrjones · 30 Dec 2006

"in case of china, If there is no CCp, can they unite....?
chinese is more individualism than american"

incase of violated copyright law, I would say you fail.

caster51 · 30 Dec 2006

Mrjones said:
"in case of china, If there is no CCp, can they unite....?
chinese is more individualism than american"
incase of violated copyright law, I would say you fail.

they dont care of their law.
one of patriotism of Japan is to obey the law of japan.

Mrjones · 30 Dec 2006

"one of patriotism of Japan is to obey the law of japan."
non-sense.

Emoni · 31 Dec 2006

Mrjones said:
"one of patriotism of Japan is to obey the law of japan."
non-sense.

Non-sense indeed.

One of the problems I see with nationalist fervor beyond patriotism is the assumed superiority over all other nations. Anything taken to extremes is bad in this case, and that goes for patriotism too. I'm not trying to compare the two.

It is the mindset of inherent right to supremacy, ethnic purity, and rewriting parts of history is a problem. While I'm sorry to say your posts aren't holding much water for me caster51, they are illustrating the mindset above and serving as an example.

In my personal opinion, the slide towards nationalism is dangerous for Japan ESPECIALLY in schools. Schools were effectively used as organizational brain washing in the World War II period. To "measure levels of loyalty" from students who cannot possibly have a sense of the world or a concept of government and country at 8, is simply absurd. To change this into ethnicity is likewise absurd considering that there is already evidence that "ethnic Japanese" are not from Japan at all but most likely from Korea, China, or Mongolia thousands of years ago. Ainu and others seem to predate these "Japanese" and if you go further back you most likely will find the islands barren of even Ainu who simply came in before. Supremacy of a country declared by doctrine is a dangerous start for ANY nation.

Maybe this simply a minor worry and nothing new, but I do know that if Japan has any hope of mending fences with Asia (and likewise the same effort must be shown by other countries as well!) that a more international attitude must be taken, not an inward focused arrogance and self-pride.

I guess if we start seeing images of the Emperor and preaching of Shinto beliefs as national history THEN we'll have something to worry about. Abe at the same time has put forth a dual-party historical research team on other issues with China, so this shows he is trying to work with others as well.

This will be an interesting time for Japan in the next decade.

caster51 · 1 Jan 2007

It is the mindset of inherent right to supremacy, ethnic purity, and rewriting parts of history is a problem.

Japan was ever an Empire with korean and Taiwan.
Japan gave up ethnic purity
if it compared with tha past at that time, i would say japan as as ethnic purity more than past.

ewriting parts of history is a problem

???
for example?

one of patriotism of Japan is to obey the law of japan."
non-sense

you should explain that.

Emoni · 1 Jan 2007

caster51 said:
Japan was ever an Empire with korean and Taiwan.
Japan gave up ethnic purity
if it compared with tha past at that time, i would say japan as as ethnic purity more than past.
???
for example?
you should explain that.

Japan strongly promoted the precepts of ethnic purity during wartime in the past, and while Korea, and other countries were under part of the Empire of Japan for sometime, they were by no means treated as equals.
As for asking for an example from anyone else, I think you first need to clarify yourself on many issues you have stated before any of us can accurately even respond to clarify specifics.
You have stated some STRONG opinions as facts with little explanation for these statements or where these are coming from.

caster51 · 1 Jan 2007

Japan strongly promoted the precepts of ethnic purity during wartime in the past, and while Korea, and other countries were under part of the Empire of Japan for sometime, they were by no means treated as equals

however they were japanese.
they were drafted since 1944 sep.
Yes, it was not equal.

Mynor King, Artist:
I was there during the occupation of Japan. It's very funny, even though we were dominated or controlled by the Japanese, if you ask any people about the age of 65 years old, everybody really appreciates the life we enjoyed there instead of right now. It's very interesting

.
http://www.kqed.org/w/baywindow/taiwan/japan.html

As for asking for an example from anyone else, I think you first need to clarify yourself on many issues you have stated before any of us can accurately even respond to clarify specifics

so,you dont know at all about that?

Emoni · 1 Jan 2007

caster51 said:
however they were japanese.
they were drafted since 1944 sep.
Yes, it was not equal.
.
http://www.kqed.org/w/baywindow/taiwan/japan.html
so,you dont know at all about that?

Somehow, I don't think you'd get much agreement from Koreans about being Japanese because they were drafted. Think from both sides.

As for the url, I DO know about that topic as well as numerous others related to the subject. I doubt you even considered how biased the url would be considering its source either. Some countries suffered much less under Japanese occupation and domination than previous or future regimes. Others suffered FAR worse and were treated less than human. The racism campaigns against Chinese were quite extreme. Yet in Vietnam the situation wasn't much different from French colonialism.

Once again, what exactly is your point? How does this relation to nationalism? Please explain with actual details.

taeter_tot · 1 Jan 2007

Korean subjects were also treated inhumanly,brutally tortured and subjugated to racism in their peninsula homeland as well.

S Korea government has ongoing memorial projects and dedicated museums retell heavy-handed tactics carried out by Japanese occupiers in those years.

David43515 · 1 Jan 2007

I teach at a Junior High School here in Hokkaido, so the new law about trying to teach some patriotism was big news among my friends and I. I personally think its a good idea.
As a foreigner living in Japan one of the things that I always found odd was the lack of National Pride that most Japanese suffer from. I`ve always been told that it was a hold over from the post-war days. You see most Japanese look at their own history and think that if you`re proud of your country it means you think it`s better than everywhere else. That isn`t a healthy idea, but neither are the alternative ideas that everywhere else is better, or that Japanese are SO unique that nobody else can ever really understand them. All 3 of those ideas are different forms of extremism.
The article at the begining of this thread shows the far ,far extreme of nationalism in Japan and sensationalizes it. It`s not really that big a deal here. It`s like saying that the KKK and the Nazis are both alive and well in the USA. It`s true, but how much influence does either group have in people`s everyday life?
David in Hokkaido

Mrjones · 1 Jan 2007

Look these things are learnt usually in home, it is also not normal to teach patriotism in school. As I live in Gunma I can tell there is already a healty amount of it in schools, and thats the prefecture the abe comes from.

Emoni · 2 Jan 2007

Thank you David and Mrjones, these are the sorts of posts I'm looking for. Posts that explore how, why, and the details of the situation are exactly what I posted this for. Thank you guys.

National Fervor Returning to Japan?

先輩

先輩

後輩

後輩

先輩

先輩

後輩

後輩

先輩

先輩

先輩

後輩

後輩

先輩

後輩

先輩

先輩

後輩

先輩

後輩

先輩

Kouhai

後輩

先輩

先輩

Similar threads