My grammar questions

[Zuba]

どうもありがとうございます。

Thank you for pointing that out, Mike. I forgot that with your own family you do not use the polite form when referring to them.

My next grammar question is about the て form of verbs followed by もらう . Like all the rest mentioned in my previous post もらう adds the meaning of "receiving" a favor form another party. The text book tells me that it has the nuance that you persuaded or arranged the favor. The person performing the action is marked with に.

私は係長に古い違う書類を変更してもらいました。I got the chief clerk to change the old wrong paperwork for me. I think the verb here might by incorrect.

Apparently you can also use もらう with the て form of verbs to acknowledge the goodwill of others.

山さんは通行人に落とした山さんの財布を返してもらいました。The passerby returned Yama's wallet he lost on the train.

Next on the agenda is といい. This follows the present short form of verbs and is used to say you hope something good will occur.

今日は晴れになるといいです。I hope today will become sunny.

For talking about other you use といいですね

かわいい彼女を会うといいですね。I hope you meet a cute girlfriend.

For talking about yourself use といいですが

私が毎日勉強する図書館は混まないといいですが。I hope the library I study at everyday is not crowded.

One interesting thing to note is that when referring to things you hope to do you use the potential form of verbs.

明日山に休みに行けるといいですが。I hope I can go and relax in the mountains tomorrow.

To make a indirect request use the て form of a verb followed by くれるといいですが。

私の誕生日のパーティーに来てくれるといいですが。I hope you will come to my birthday party.

I have more questions, but the world sees fit to not allow me a longer period of free time. I shall be back later today.

よろしくお願いします。

 

[Toritoribe]

私は係長に古い違う書類を変更してもらいました。I got the chief clerk to change the old wrong paperwork for me.

古くて間違っている書類を変更/交換してもらいました。
The verb differs what "change" means; "to revise" or "to replace the whole document with the new one".

山さんは通行人に落とした山さんの財布を返してもらいました。The passerby returned Yama's wallet he lost on the train.

山さんは落とした財布を通りすがりの人に拾ってもらいました。
The usage of ～てもらう is correct.

かわいい彼女を会うといいですね。I hope you meet a cute girlfriend.

かわいい彼女に会えるといいですね。
会う is understandable, but 会える is more natural also here, as you mentioned later.

私が毎日勉強する図書館は混まないといいですが。I hope the library I study at everyday is not crowded.

は performs as the contrastive marker, i.e., it connotes "I don't care even if other libraries are crowded" or like that. が is more appropriate.

私の誕生日のパーティーに来てくれるといいですが。I hope you will come to my birthday party.

来てくれるとうれしい/ありがたい/助かるんですけど is usually used for "you", i.e., the one you are talking to. いいんですけど is used mostly for third person(s). This is probably from the politeness of です. "I'm glad/happy if you~" sounds more polite than "It's good if you~" also in English, right?
This is not mentioned in your textbook yet, but this ん is the explanatory ん, and it's more natural to add ん here.

 

[Zuba]

どうもありがとうございます。

Thank your very much for answering my questions.

I do have a few questions.

Why is 通りすがりの人 used in instead of 通行人? From what I can gather, based off of checking a dictionary, The first puts more emphasis on someone that happens by while the second is more just general foot traffic.

When I am using といい with others, as in I hope someone else does something, in the textbook the verbs are just in the plain form. Should I change them to the potential form?

アメリカに旅行しに行くといいですね。
アメリカに旅行しに行けるといいですね。

Which one is correct? Or should I say which one is more "natural" as both appear to be "correct."

は performs as the contrastive marker, i.e., it connotes "I don't care even if other libraries are crowded" or like that. が is more appropriate.

I have not been acquainted with this grammar structure yet, but it pops in every now and then. I hope it is covered soon.

I just noticed that I did not add the ん for といいんですが and くれるといいんですが. My bad.

So does that mean if using てくれるといいんですが to say "I hope you do X" is not correct? In the textbook the example is directed to the one you are speaking to.

私の手作りのケーキを食べてくれるといいんですが。 I hope you eat my homemade cookies.

よろしくお願いします。

 

[Mike Cash]

Thank you for pointing that out, Mike. I forgot that with your own family you do not use the polite form when referring to them.

That's an over simplification. But it is true for younger siblings.

私の手作りのケーキを食べてくれるといいんですが。 I hope you eat my homemade cookies.

That sounds more like a threat...

 

[Toritoribe]

Why is 通りすがりの人 used in instead of 通行人?

通行人 is too formal and therefore it's less polite than 通りすがりの人. It could even sound somewhat rude, just like 外国の人 vs. 外国人.

When I am using といい with others, as in I hope someone else does something, in the textbook the verbs are just in the plain form. Should I change them to the potential form?

アメリカに旅行しに行くといいですね。
アメリカに旅行しに行けるといいですね。

Which one is correct? Or should I say which one is more "natural" as both appear to be "correct."

Indeed both are correct, but the nuance is different. When といい is attached to a verb that expresses an action the addressee can control, it's more likely an advice or suggestion rather than the speaker's hope especially when with よ at the end of the sentence. (ね is softer than よ, but the meaning is the same.) Thus, アメリカに旅行に行くといいですよ/ね。 is closer to "you should/you'd better ~" than "I hope ~" since the addressee can control whether they will go to America or not. On the other hand, 晴れるといいですね or 彼女が来るといいですね doesn't have this "force" nuance since 晴れる is non-volitional and people can't control other person's will. The potential form is non-volitional, therefore 旅行に行けるといいですね。 is more common and natural.

So does that mean if using てくれるといいんですが to say "I hope you do X" is not correct? In the textbook the example is directed to the one you are speaking to.

私の手作りのケーキを食べてくれるといいんですが。 I hope you eat my homemade cookies.

If it's really used in a conversation, the listener would interpret that the speaker is talking about someone else (I hope they will eat my homemade cake), not the listener.

 

[Zuba]

どうもありがとうございます。

Thank you for taking the time to answer my questions. It is greatly appreciated and valued.

To recap for referring to others you use といいです and if the addressee has control over the action then you use the volitional form.

君の鞄は重くないといいですね。I hope your bag is not heavy. Here I am talking to someone else and I am expressing my wish that there bag is not heavy and they have not control of this.

明日は休みだから、休めるといいですね。 Because tomorrow is a holiday I hope you can rest. Here the volitional form is used because the addressee has control of this action. I am concerned that the translation is wrong.

For your own actions or thing within your sphere you use といいんですが and again the volitional form is used.

私は今年日本に行けるといいんですが。I hope I can go to Japan this year.

The whole てくれるといいんですが structure is more complex than the book presented so I will move on form this for the time being.

よろしくお願いします。

 

[Zuba]

今晩は、皆さん。元気ですか。私は元気です。

I have a simple, yet more than likely not, question. It involves making requests.

So these the grammar is て form of a verb followed by いただけませんか、(This is the potential, polite form of いただける) くださいませんか、(This is the polite negative form of くださる) もらえませんか、 くれませんか、もらえないか、くれないか。These are listed in order of most polite to least.

ちょっと待っていただけませんか。Would you please wait?

My question in regards to these is what is the politeness level for all of them? My textbook only covers three of them and rest are just listed in order of most polite to least so. I am guessing this is much more complex and nuanced then I realize, but a basic guided would be appreciated.

For reference my textbook states いただけませんか is used with those of a higher status than you, くれませんか is about the same as ください, and くれない is used with friends.

Also I am assuming that the usage of all of these forms are all identical to that of いただけませんか, minus the differing politeness level, so I did not feel the need to make a sentence for each one. Please let me know if I am mistaken in my conclusion and if I should make a sentence for each one.

よろしくお願いします。

 

[Toritoribe]

どうもありがとうございます。

Thank you for taking the time to answer my questions. It is greatly appreciated and valued.

To recap for referring to others you use といいです and if the addressee has control over the action then you use the volitional form.

君の鞄は重くないといいですね。I hope your bag is not heavy. Here I am talking to someone else and I am expressing my wish that there bag is not heavy and they have not control of this.

明日は休みだから、休めるといいですね。 Because tomorrow is a holiday I hope you can rest. Here the volitional form is used because the addressee has control of this action. I am concerned that the translation is wrong.

For your own actions or thing within your sphere you use といいんですが and again the volitional form is used.

私は今年日本に行けるといいんですが。I hope I can go to Japan this year.

The whole てくれるといいんですが structure is more complex than the book presented so I will move on form this for the time being.

よろしくお願いします。

Your understanding is correct. It's not volitional form(休もう, 行こう) but potential form, though.

今晩は、皆さん。元気ですか。私は元気です。

I have a simple, yet more than likely not, question. It involves making requests.

So these the grammar is て form of a verb followed by いただけませんか、(This is the potential, polite form of いただける) くださいませんか、(This is the polite negative form of くださる) もらえませんか、 くれませんか、もらえないか、くれないか。These are listed in order of most polite to least.

ちょっと待っていただけませんか。Would you please wait?

My question in regards to these is what is the politeness level for all of them? My textbook only covers three of them and rest are just listed in order of most polite to least so. I am guessing this is much more complex and nuanced then I realize, but a basic guided would be appreciated.

For reference my textbook states いただけませんか is used with those of a higher status than you, くれませんか is about the same as ください, and くれない is used with friends.

Also I am assuming that the usage of all of these forms are all identical to that of いただけませんか, minus the differing politeness level, so I did not feel the need to make a sentence for each one. Please let me know if I am mistaken in my conclusion and if I should make a sentence for each one.

よろしくお願いします。

くださいませんか sounds less polite than いただけませんか, and therefore is not so commonly used in business scenes (e.g. from shop clerk to customer). The more respectful expressions such like いただけませんでしょうか is the most common in these days, though. Similarly, もらえませんか is more polite than くれませんか. もらえないか/くれないか are closer to imperative ～くれ, mostly used by male.

 

[Zuba]

どうもありがとうございます。

Thank you! I am glad to see my understanding of the usage of といい is correct. The politeness levels for all the verbs I listed is something I feel I will come to grasp more as I study in general. I honestly think that the politeness level dynamic is one of the more complex facets of Japanese, more so than kanji.

 

[Zuba]

今晩は、皆さん。元気ですか。私は元気です。

I am ready to tackle 時 once more.

I am going to tackle one pattern at a time.

A時B when both are in present.

This shows that the action happens before, correct?

寝る時、歯を磨きます。 Before(when) I got to bed I brush my teeth. This shows a habit, right?

I will post more tomorrow. Just a quick one.

よろしくお願いします。

 

[Toritoribe]

Generally, yes. However, it's not always "before". For instance, in a sentence 上司といるとき、静かにしています。, 時 means "during", not "before". The same goes to 彼女はジュースを飲むとき、ストローを使います。. This doesn't mean she uses a straw before drinking juice. いる is a state verb, and 飲む can express several phases of the action "to drink" (e.g. beginning point of the action, during the action, ending point of the action or the whole action from beginning to the ending), thus, these verbs have a certain amount of length of time. In conclusion, the meaning could differ depending on the type of the verb.

As for present habit or future tense, both are possible. It's determined by the context, including adverbs.

毎日寝る時、歯を磨きます。(present habit)
今日は寝る時、歯を磨きます。(future)

 

[Zuba]

どうもありがとうございます。

Ok so the verb affects how the sentence can be read. If the action has any length to it then the reading could be "before" or "while". And temporal nouns affect if it is a habit or not.

彼は踊る時、音楽を聞きます。 When(while) he dances he listen to music. The first verb is a action that could go on for some length, therefore the reading of this sentence could change, right? It could also mean "Before he dances he listens to music." right? This should also show are future action and not a habit.

毎日、私は朝ごはんを食べる時、伸びします。When(before) I eat breakfast I stretch everyday. This shows a habit, right?

よろしくお願いします。

 

[Toritoribe]

The relation between the subordinate clause and main clause also affects the meaning of とき.
e.g.
彼は踊るとき、スニーカーに履き替えます。
It is impossible to change his shoes while dancing (well, unless he is an acrobat performer or something), so "before" is the only possible interpretation here. This can be both present habit and future.

Yes, for the latter one.

 

[Zuba]

こんばんは、皆さん。元気ですか。私は元気です。

どうもありがとうございます。 Thank you very much for explaining how とき works! It is taking a while, but I am grasping it piece by piece. Again thank you. :notworthy:

I have come back! Sorry for not being active.

Back to were I left off about 時.

When A is in the past tense it shows that B will occur after A, correct?

日記を書いた時、メールを確かめる。When(after) I write my diary I check my email. This shows a future action right? If I were to add いつも or something like that it would show a habit, correct?

よろしくお願いします。

 

[Toritoribe]

As I wrote in the thread I linked previously or in my replies in this thread so far, it's not that simple such like "the present form + とき always means before or at the same time " or "the past form + とき always means after " automatically.
とき doesn't work well in your example sentence since the relation between those two clauses is unclear. とき is not all-purpose. You need to use あと（で） if you want to say "after" clearly in that sentence.

It can be both future and present habit, as same as your previous examples with no temporal adverb.

 

[Zuba]

おはようございます。皆さんは元気ですか。私は元気です。

Hello, all!

I believe I have had a revelation in regards to how I should approach 時. After reading through the threads listed above and writing down every scrap of information I could glean about 時 I have concluded that I should not force the English definition of "when" upon it. Or at least not so strongly. It does indeed show "when" a action will occur in relation to another action, however it so far stands apparent to me that it more shows habits, future actions in conjunction with another, or past action or habits, also in conjunction with another action. I am faithful that this fresh way of looking into 時 while yield a better understanding of it.

To start off I will review my previous sentence I wrote.

日記を書いた時、メールを確かめる。I will break this sentence down piece by piece to insure my understanding of all the components is correct. I am aware that it is probably not correct, or at least not natural, but I am wary of making a new sentence and further warping my understanding of 時 further.

日記を書いた時 For this fragment it shows that this action "should" be done before the clause after. From my gleanings when the verb before 時 is a action verb in the past the action will do done by the time the second action starts. The verb before 時 more acts as a sign post for "when" the action in B occurs or occurred.

メールを確かめる Because the first clause(is that what they are called?) was in the past tense and "should" have already been completed this action will take place after it.

The main issue here is that this complete sentence can show that this set of actions can occur in the future or is a habit that is done.

I sincerely hope this is right. I know feel like I just re-hashed what I already know of 時 and that I really am still just as lost and perplexed as when I began. If this is all wrong, which I am beginning to conclude more and more as I re-read it, I am going to have to eradicate all my understanding of 時 and start again. :banghead:

よろしくお願いします。じゃ、また。

 

[Toritoribe]

Your understanding is basically correct. The problem is that とき is not all-purpose, as I wrote. Here is another example 日記を書いたとき、銀行に行きます. This sentence is grammatically perfectly correct, but doesn't make much sense, either. If the speaker wants to show the temporal order of the two actions, 日記を書いたあとで or 書いてから is used instead. There is no reason to stick to とき since it's far more important to convey what they want to say correctly.

 

[Mike Cash]

You are in danger of over-obsessing on one point at the expense of making progress on others.

You don't have to understand absolutely every nuance of everything you encounter. Spend a reasonable amount of time and effort achieving your best understanding of a point, then keep moving along and trust to increased exposure over time to refine your understanding.

 

[Majestic]

I believe I have had a revelation in regards to how I should approach (something). After reading through the threads listed above and writing down every scrap of information I could glean about (something) I have concluded that I should not force the English definition of (something) on to (something)

The above is huge progress, not only in regards to the specific usage of 時, but in regards to so many Japanese idioms and sentence structures. Getting rid of trying to learn Japanese in a strict word-for-word style is like getting rid of the training wheels on a bicycle. Training wheels are great for beginners. They serve a very good purpose. But at some point you need to remove them so you can make further progress.
In learning Japanese, there are many times that one has to accept the fact that the direct English translation of the target structure just doesn't help understanding (either English is too rigid, or the Japanese is too idiomatic, or maybe both). Anyway, the point is; when you can start saying "this doesn't fit nicely into an English pattern", instead of "why doesn't this phrase conform to the English structure I'm assuming it should conform to", you have made a huge step.

 

[Zuba]

こんばんは。皆さんは元気ですか。私は元気です。

Thank you all for the great responses.
I am afraid I was modicum obsessed with 時. I was so determined to comprehend it I was allowing my study of other grammar to fall short. I forced the idea of "when" on 時 so strongly that I felt like I had to master its use because "when" felt like a very basic grammar structure to me.
Thanks again to all of your input, I know see that I need to tackle new grammar with a open mind. Not taking a outrageous amount of time on it. The acquiring of new grammar and the understanding of the culture more will allow me to review the grammar I am hazy on with a better understanding. Also being able to see the grammar for more of what it wants to be and not shoving the English definition upon it without mercy.

With that said I have just a single new grammar structure to ask about for today.

そうです is attached to the plain form of verbs, adjectives, and nouns and is used to say hearsay. To quote the source you append によると to it.

新聞によると、この株価はまた高くなったそうです。 According to the newspaper, this stock went up in price again.

よろしくお願いします。じゃ、また。

 

[Toritoribe]

Yes, your sentence is correct.

 

[Zuba]

こんばんは。皆さんは元気ですか。私はつかれました。

Today I bring a inquiry in regards to たら. It roughly means "if" The concept pattern is AたらB. A must occur before B. A and B must also be naturally related, even if the occurrence of A is not very probable or highly probable.

雨を降ったら、傘を持ちます。If it rains, I will bring a umbrella.

この会社の議長になったら、全部を直します。If I become chairman at this company, I will fix everything. In this example the prospect of becoming chairman is not very likely.

When たら is used in a highly likely event, it translates more closely to "when."

明日仕事に行ったら、山さんに花をあげようと思います。When (The "if" here is very likely) I intend to give Yama flower.

よろしくお願いします。じゃ、また。

 

[Mike Cash]

雨を降ったら

Check your particle.

 

[Toritoribe]

雨を降ったら、傘を持ちます。If it rains, I will bring a umbrella.

Besides the particle Mike-san pointed out, 持って行く is more appropriate for "to bring".

The following thread might be somewhat helpful to understand たら.
たら vs. ば vs. と? Conditonals | Japan Forum
Need a word or phrase translated? | Page 286 | Japan Forum

 

[Zuba]

こんにちは。元気ですか。私は元気です。

Thank you for listing the other threads. They were very helpful. The main concept appears to be that たら is used in one-off situations. Again the A must occur before B still applies.

祭りで社長に会ったら、仕事を話さなくちゃいけません。If I meet my boss at the festival, I will have to talk about work.

よろしくお願いします。じゃ、また。