My grammar questions

[Zuba]

おはようございます。皆さんは元気ですか。私はとても元気です。

So I finished looking over the grammar from the chapter I am currently studying and I have a few questions.

First, it went over the volitional short form. It says that I would use this form to suggest plans to close friends. It seems it is just more forceful than the ないか form for invitation.

寒いし、一緒に家でお茶を飲もう。It is cold, among other things, so lets drink tea together in the house.
寒いし、一緒に家でお茶をのみましょう。This should be the same just politer.

In the above two examples, from what I understand of the volitional form it is used to show your volition to others. So it would seem that by using it you are saying to someone "lets do this."

行こうか Shall we go?
行きましょうか。Again, just politer.

When used with か I think it just comes across stronger than the ないか form as I mentioned earlier.

Next is the て form of a verb used with おく. おく is a helping verb and it adds the meaning of "doing something in preparation for something."

明日私は仕事に早く行かなくちゃいけないから、今夜仕事の服を洗濯しておこうと思います。Because I have to go to work early tomorrow, I intend to wash my clothes tonight. {In preparation for leaving early.}

予約しておきます。To make a reservation. (In preparation to go)

This one seems pretty straight forward to me. By adding it you simple add the extra layer of meaning that this action is being done for a future reason.

And the final question for is today is about qualifying nouns. You just use the short form of verbs and just simply put them before the noun. The only thing is the one doing the action in this phrase must be marked with が。

母が買った机は大きいです。The desk my Mom bought is big.

昨日私は父がくれた携帯を壊したから、今日新しい携帯を買いに行くつもりです。Because I broke the phone my Dad gave me yesterday, I will go buy a new one today.

This is SUPER EXCITING finally learning how to form these. I kind of knew how, but I was never fully sure.

じゃ、また。

 

[Toritoribe]

You did quite well!! The only correction I would add is just 仕事の服 vs. 仕事着, but this is just a tiny thing, even not a mistake.

 

[Zuba]

どうもありがとうございます。

Thanks for always helping me out!

 

[Zuba]

こんばんは、皆さん。元気ですか。私は元気です。

I wanted to do some review so below is just a short dialogue.

（小さいなラーメン屋で）

Aさん お疲れ様です。元気ですか。

Bさん お疲れ様です。はい、私はとても元気です。

Aさん Bさんはよさそうんですね。

Bさん うん。昨日昇進をくれたんです。今部長になったんです。

Aさん そうですか。いいですね。おめでとうございます。

Bさん ありがとうございます。じゃ、昇進だし、今夜田中さんは美味しくて人気だと言っていたバルに行きませんか。

Aさん えっと、私はワインなら飲みますけど。

Bさん 大丈夫です。ワインがあるでしょう。

Aさん じゃ、喜んで。

Bさん いいです。え、（携帯を見ました）今は十二時だから、速く会社に戻らなくてちゃいけません。行きましょう。

The idea here is that these two are co-workers who are somewhat friendly and are about the same social status. They are on lunch break away from the office.

I was trying to use as much grammar as I could, but I was also trying to keep it somewhat natural. Writing a dialogue can be a little hard.

じゃ、また。

 

[Toritoribe]

Aさん お疲れ様です。

Bさん お疲れ様です。
(It's OK just お疲れ様です。 for both A and B.)

Aさん Bさんはよさそうんですね。
(Doesn't make sense. 機嫌よさそうですね。"Looks to be in a good mood", maybe?)

Bさん ええ。実は昨日昇進して、部長になったんです。

Aさん そうなんですか。すごいですね。おめでとうございます。

Bさん ありがとうございます。じゃあ、今夜田中さんが美味しくて人気だと言っていたバルに行きませんか。
(Note 田中さんは美味しくて人気だと言っていた is an attributive clause modifying バル. は can't be used to indicate the subject in attributive clauses. You need to use が instead.)

Aさん えーっと、私はワインなら飲むんですけど。

Bさん 大丈夫です。ワインもあるでしょう。

Aさん じゃ、喜んで。

Bさん いいですねえ。あ、（携帯を見ました）もう十二時だから、速く会社に戻らなくちゃいけません。(て is unnecessary.) 行きましょう。

Far better than the dialogue you made previously.

 

[Zuba]

どうもありがとうございます。

I have a few questions.

First, is it seems that 元気ですか。 is not used very much. I am a bit confused on this. Are other forms of asking how someone is more common?

ええ。実は昨日昇進して、部長になったんです

For this sentence would it be ok to say ええ、実は明日昇進してくれて、部長になったんです。

For some reason I want to use くれる to state the promotion was given to him. Is it necessary or I am just making the sentence more complex than it needs to be?

Why is ええ used instead of うん? From what I can gather maybe it sounds too feminine?

The other things make sense to me and make the conversation sound more natural.

じゃ、また。

 

[Mike Cash]

For some reason I want to use くれる to state the promotion was given to him. Is it necessary or I am just making the sentence more complex than it needs to be?

No. Yes.

だれがしてくれた？

You need to go back and review the verbs of giving and receiving again. I think you're confusing くれる and もらう. Your earlier post regarding them also made it sound like you weren't understanding them correctly.

Why is ええ used instead of うん? From what I can gather maybe it sounds too feminine?

Why say "yes" instead of "yeah" or "yeah" instead of "uh-huh"? Why say "uh-huh" instead of just grunting? I don't know about the way society worked where and when you were raised, but where and when I was raised, we would get called out for using one that was socially or situationally inappropriate. Hell, I remember very clearly in Japan having a teacher reprimand me when he got tired of overlooking my gaijin faux pas of using ええ instead of はい when speaking to him. That was in the 80s and it brought me up so short that I think I may have overcorrected as I don't think I've said ええ to anybody since then.

Situations and the relations between the parties doing the talking and the relations between the the people doing the talking and any people being mentioned drive a hell of a lot of Japanese word and grammatical construction choices. You not only have to learn which are appropriate when, you also have to learn to work it in the other direction and figure out the various relations between parties based on the usages you see or hear. I once saw a wonderful example of this from an old short story I was reading. There was a three way conversation going on between a man, his wife, and a caller to their home...and the text contained not a single instance of "he said" or "remarked X" or "Y interjected" or anything whatsoever except the words of the people speaking. Remarkably, from an English speaker's point of view and entirely unremarkably from a Japanese speaker's point of view, no such devices were the slightest bit necessary. Three people talking, and not only was it entirely clear who was saying what by their language use, their standings relative to each other were also entirely clear.

Point being, when you see or hear Japanese people talking, be it expository or conversational, you have to learn to pay attention to the situation and the relations between the people and what register of speech is being used so you can actively learn to pick up on important clues that native speakers pick up automatically and unconsciously. There's more to learning this language than grammar and vocabulary. A lot more.

By the way, a week or so ago I overheard one half of a cell phone conversation 90% of which consisted of the guy saying ええ、ええ、ええ over and over again to the point I wanted to go over and slap his mental tone arm into the next groove. For ten minutes or more that was practically all that came out of his mouth. Never a はい. Never a うん.

 

[Zuba]

どうもありがとうございます。

Thanks again, Mike. I will make sure to do some more review of もらう and くれる.

Thanks for explaining ええ and うん to me. I got a lot of insight from it.

じゃ、また。

 

[Toritoribe]

First, is it seems that 元気ですか。 is not used very much. I am a bit confused on this. Are other forms of asking how someone is more common?

There is no habit to ask those kind of things among people who meet with each other in daily basis like co-workers in Japanese greetings. Just お疲れ様です。is enough.

 

[Zuba]

どうもありがとうございます。

Ok that is interesting to know. Here in the US it is common to ask those you see even on a daily basis how they are doing so it is just a habit I have to always ask how someone is doing.

Also about what Mike said in his earlier post would はい be "Yes" ええ "Yeah" and うん "uh-uh"?

じゃ、また。

 

[Toritoribe]

Yes, the nuance differs depending on the context, though.

 

[Mike Cash]

Yes, the nuance differs depending on the context, though.

And on the intonation/rhythm as well.

Nothing is more polite or well-received than a good, clear, crisp, prompt, single はい. And nothing is more compactly 生意気 than some of the other ways of saying it.

 

[Zuba]

こんばんは。皆さんは元気ですか。私は元気です。

I have noticed a pattern and I was wondering, does 中 when added to the end of a noun mean "during X"?

Like 大会中 during the tournament? Or 話し中 During the talk?

If so can I simply attach 中 to nouns and change the meaning to during X?

And also should I end my posts with よろしくお願いします? I figure I should since I am asking you all to do something and I am putting myself in your hands.

じゃ、また。

 

[Toritoribe]

Actually, it's a bit more complicated probably than you expected. Please refer to the following threads.
かと思うと | Japan Forum
How do you know... ON/KUN and beyond | Page 6 | Japan Forum
入られて / 中 / 歳 / 才 / 乗せられる | Japan Forum

And also should I end my posts with よろしくお願いします? I figure I should since I am asking you all to do something and I am putting myself in your hands.

よろしくお願いします sounds far more polite than じゃ、また. The latter one is just a farewell greeting, actually.

 

[Mike Cash]

I have noticed a pattern and I was wondering, does 中 when added to the end of a noun mean "during X"?

When pronounced as ちゅう, yes. When pronounced as じゅう, no.

In the latter case it means "throughout X"

And also should I end my posts with よろしくお願いします?

It would sound a lot better.

 

[Zuba]

おはようございます。皆さんは元気ですか。私は元気です。

Yesterday I learned about 時 to mean "when." And I am a little worried I do not understand it very well.

So before 時 is the time reference, the "when" if you will, and after this is the main event. So the pattern seems to be when X then A.

寝る時、携帯を充電します。 When I sleep I charge my phone. The time event is "when I sleep" and the main event is charging the phone.

有名なあの料理店で食べる時、いつもケンさんを誘います。 When I eat at that famous restaurant I always invite Ken.

I think I understand how 時 works when both parts are in the present. But, when the main event is in the past and the time event is in the present this confuses me.


今日仕事に行く時、朝ごはんを食べませんでした。 When I go to work today I did not eat breakfast. The time event is "when I go to work today." So this action has not yet occurred. The main even is not eating breakfast, which has already occurred. This just sounds odd to me. Am I translating it correctly?

お茶を飲む時、茶碗を温めました。 When I drink tea I warmed the cups. Should I translate it as "I warmed the cups when I drink tea."?

The next form is that when the time reference holds true when the event takes place.

元気な時、走りたい。 When I am energetic I want to run. The time event of 元気 holds true when wanting to run, right? Also can I use the たい from of verbs with 時?

So next is when the time event is in the past and the main event is in the present.

バスに乗った時、携帯で勉強します。 When I got on the bus I will studying with my phone. So I got on the bus, which already happened and I am going to study on my phone, which I WILL do.

And the when the time event is in the past and the main event is in the past. This one makes sense to me.

家を出た時、財布を忘れました。 When I left the house I forgot my wallet.

And finally is when the main event occurs during the time event you use the ている form of a verb.

私の一番好きな本を読んでいる時、兄は私の部屋に入りましｔた。 When I was reading my favorite book, my older brother entered my room.

This form makes sense to me as well.

Sorry for focusing so much on just this one piece of grammar, but it was confusing me a lot.

よろしくお願いします。

 

[Toritoribe]

This is also a bit more complicated than you thought. Please refer to the following threads.

Use of 時 after verb | Japan Forum
時 in the following sentence | Japan Forum

 

[Zuba]

どうもありがとうございます。

I looked through the threads and they were helpful. Apparently 時 is more complex than I thought. :nailbiting: Now I am unsure if any of my sentences are right. I will go back and compare my sentences to the ones in the threads again and see if it helps.

じゃ、また。

 

[Toritoribe]

The problem is in the third and forth examples, especially the third one 今日仕事に行く時、朝ごはんを食べませんでした。. You need to grasp the difference in meaning between 行く時 and 行った時 here.

 

[Zuba]

I am still completely lost. I do not know what is wrong with the sentences you pointed out. :arghh::arghh::arghh:
I will look at it again tomorrow. Maybe a good nights sleep will help.

 

[Toritoribe]

1) 今日仕事に行く時、朝ごはんを食べませんでした。
The present form 行く doesn't show the future of now/when the speaker said/wrote this sentence. It indicates the future of the main clause, i.e., when you didn't eat breakfast. The temporal order of this AときB is "B --> A", thus, it can be rephrased to A前B or BてA.

今日仕事に行く前、朝ごはんを食べませんでした。
Before I went to work, I didn't eat breakfast today.

今日朝ごはんを食べないで、仕事に行きました。
I didn't eat breakfast, and went to work today. / I went to work without eating breakfast today.

1') 今日仕事に行った時、朝ごはんを食べませんでした。
In the same logic, the past form 行った indicates the past of "when you didn't eat breakfast". The temporal order is "A --> B", and it can be rephrased to A後B or AてB.

今日仕事に行った後、朝ごはんを食べませんでした。
After I went to work, I didn't eat breakfast today.

今日仕事に行って、朝ごはんを食べませんでした。
I went to work, and I didn't eat breakfast (there) today.
(As you can see, the speaker is talking about breakfast at office in 1', not breakfast at home. Probably he would usually eat it there.)


2) お茶を飲む時、茶碗を温めました。
Unlike the example #1 or #1', these two actions 飲む and 温める are done at almost the same time (well, warming the cup is always done first, of course). In these cases, the main clause is more likely the means or preparation for the subordinate clause, and it can be rephrased to BてA (茶碗を温めて、お茶を飲みました). Besides, although the example sentence can be both past habit and a single past event, 飲んだ時 also can be used without changing the meaning when it's a past event.

お茶を飲む時、いつも茶碗を温めました/温めていました。 (past habit)
今日お茶を飲む時、茶碗を温めました。(single past event)
今日お茶を飲んだ時、茶碗を温めました。(single past event)

お茶を飲んだ時、いつも茶碗を温めました。 is understandable, but it could be interpreted as "I always used to warm the cup after drinking tea ", so the past form 飲んだ is hardly used here.


3) バスに乗った時、携帯で勉強します。
Sorry, I overlooked this one. Now you can see 乗った is not past, right? (The two interpretations, future and present habit, are both possible here.)


4) 家を出た時、財布を忘れました。
This is understandable, but the followings are more natural.
家を出る時、財布を忘れました。
財布を忘れて、家を出ました。
or
家を出た時、財布を忘れたのに気づきました。
家を出た後、財布を忘れたのに気づきました。
家を出て、財布を忘れたのに気づきました。
After I left home, I realized I'd forgotten my wallet.

 

[Zuba]

どうもありがとうございます。

Thank your very much! I think I am starting to understand it.

バスに乗る時、時々雑誌を読みました。 When I rode the bus I sometimes would read magazines. This is showing the "past habit', right? A is stating the "time event", or when B would be occurring. But since B has already occurred and there is a adverb there it shows this was a past action. Correct?


バスに乗った時、携帯で勉強します。 When I ride the bus I will study on my phone. This interpretation shows that you will study when you ride the bus. A is the time event and shows that you rode the bus, but B is in the present and shows what you will do. Thus A is not past, but more showing that A has already occurred when B will happen. Correct?

From what I can gather A does see not always occur first, but depends on B, certain adverbs, and temporal nouns to clarify which action happened first and whether it is a habit or single event.

起った時、お手洗いに行きます。 When I wake up I go the bathroom. A will already happen by the time B starts. Thus this shows a future action or a habit. A is not in the "past" , but is more stating it will be done when B happens.

I and tentative about whether any of what I wrote is correct, but I feel I am making some progress toward grasping this.

よろしくお願いします。

 

[Toritoribe]

1) バスに乗る時、時々雑誌を読みました。
乗る means "to get on (the bus)", thus, バスに乗る時 actually means "before(or at the same time) I got/get/will get in the bus" (the tense differs depending on the tense of the main verb). 時々 shows this is a past habit, so 読んでいました is more natural. 読みました is acceptable, though. Thus, it can be rephrased to;
バスに乗る前、時々雑誌を読みました/読んでいました。
I used to sometimes read magazines before getting on the bus (probably while waiting the but at the bus stop).
or
時々雑誌を読んで（から）、バスに乗りました。
I used to sometimes read magazines, and (then) get on the bus.


2) バスに乗った時、携帯で勉強します。
乗った is acceptable, but 乗っている is more appropriate for "I got on the bus and be in the bus now." This can be both future and a present habit.
バスに乗った/乗っている時、いつも携帯で勉強します。 (present habit)
明日バスに乗った/乗っている時、携帯で勉強します。 (future)

乗っている is a state, so there is no difference in meaning between 乗っている時 and 乗っていた時 when the main clause is a past habit or a single past event. See the explanation #1 in the following post again.
時 in the following sentence | Japan Forum
バスに乗っている/乗っていた時、いつも携帯で勉強しました。 (past habit)
昨日バスに乗っている/乗っていた時、携帯で勉強しました。 (past)


3)起きた時、お手洗いに行きます。
The third one is correct except a typo 起った. You can't use 起きる時 here since you can't go to the bathroom before waking up/while sleeping.

 

[Zuba]

おはようございます。皆さんは元気ですか。私は元気です。

Sorry for the week long absence, but I have returned. I have decided to ask about the other grammar I learned then come back to 時 since it is holding up my progress in studying.

I also feel I should systematize how 時 works with the different verb tenses. I am relying too much on "feeling out" how 時 works and it merely reaps more confusion. The mechanics of 時 are simply so foreign to how my mind operates that I have concluded that systematizing it ruthlessly will bring about better results. Anyway that is for a later date, hopefully tomorrow or Saturday.

First on the list is the て form of verbs followed by あげる. あげる here acts as a helping verb and shows that the action was done as a favor.

私は駅にキムさんを迎えに行ってあげました。 I went to go pick up Kim from the station.

If the beneficiary does not work into the sentence add them in plus のために

田中さんはリンさんのために料理してあげるといっていました。Tanaka said he would cook for Rin.

This all makes sense to me as you are adding the meaning that a action was done as a favor for someone.

Next is the て form of verbs followed by くれる。Like in the above statement くれる adds the meaning that a action was done for you or someone in your inner circle.

友達が部屋を掃除してくれました。My friend cleaned my room. The beneficiary here does not need to be stated because it is implied from context that the beneficiary is the speaker.

Similarly to あげる if you need or want to explicitly state the beneficiary use のために,

母が弟さんのためにお茶を温めてくれたと思います。I think my Mom warmed up tea for my younger brother.

That is all for the moment, I need to be off to work now. I intend to post the rest later today.
よろしくお願いします。

 

[Mike Cash]

母が弟さんのためにお茶を温めてくれたと思います。I think my Mom warmed up tea for my younger brother.

You're taking about your own younger brother so you don't need さん.