My Girl gives her body

[Remixer]

Oh, that's what you meant.

Yeah, that is my approach.

However, you should know, that as a consequence, you will reject most women you get to know as a potential partner.

Some of them really can't handle it. So, if you get stabbed or anything of the sort, I told you so.

That also depends if you are as much of a picky ******* as me, though.

EDIT: Also, you have to have patience.

Good luck and hopefully you will find the right woman for you one day.




Remixer

 

[Kristo]

I have lived to take chances and face the consequences not blaming anyone but myself no matter what. Yeah! the road I will take might be dangerous but its better to die honorably like a samurai than to live in shame like a clown without talent...the way I feel about this whole thing is worse than if the girl had just put a gun to my head...but then I will not be the one telling the story now...
Patience has been my guiding principle dealing with people of the opposite sex...but thats not doing me any good you will agree.

 

[Remixer]

Patience is also a major principle of mine when dealing with love in general. Also I agree with your position on honorable living rather than idiocy.

But no, I don't agree that patience does not do you any good.

Take your time and stay persistent on finding the right woman. Rushing into a gut feeling of love and/or lust is more likely to end up breaking your heart at the end than to develop into a long-lasting love and partnership.

Even if you have screened your potential partner thoroughly and accept all of her traits, good and bad ones, completely, even then there might be some issues deep within her personality that could blow your mind away.

Don't take it too much to heart, misjudgment is also a part of life.

By the way, how old are you?




Remixer

 

[Kristo]

Well there are different ways of living one's life...making choices and accepting them is the key. Your comments are very helpful and most of them are not debatable.

The thing is in our different societites challenges come in different ways...I have been through a variety. I am with you on the same boat only this time my flexibility toward emtional issues will be adjusted with circumstances.

I'm 32.

 

[Remixer]

I understand what you're saying, and I agree with it.

One has to make their own choices and know the tolerance one has for dealing with traits of others.

I'm often called intolerant, although I don't believe I am. As long as others aren't involved and hurt because of the actions of one person, I couldn't give the smallest crap in the Universe about what they do.

Also, you would be mistaken to associate me with any society. True, I have lived most of my life in the Western Society (Germany and Australia) but I have also lived and do live right now in the Arab/Islamic Society.

Furthermore, I travel constantly, one day I'm in Europe, the other in China, another in Singapore and then another in Dubai.

I know the Western Society the best, yes, but I also am very familiar with many others and know the lifestyles and etiquette in them.

I hope my advice was/is of any help to you. To be honest, I never thought a 32-year old would take my advice, but I learn new things everyday.

Cheers



Remixer

 

[Drew-san]

"Forced prostitution", such things are non-existent.

Such things are very existent...

 

[kusojiji]

I'm often called intolerant, although I don't believe I am.

Lots of intolerant people don't want to believe they are.

 

[Remixer]

Lots of intolerant people don't want to believe they are.

What a good point you have made.

But those intolerant people walk hand-in-hand with ignorance.

By God, you would by definition be an intolerant person just by looking at your ignorance.





Remixer

 

[Haruspex]

Lots of intolerant people don't want to believe they are.

You're a very fine specimen.

 

[Drew-san]

You're a very fine specimen.

Thats almost the same thing I thought when I read that post.

 

[Adulado]

Since you've been with her already why don't you take it to the end? So to the other better half, who would want a person who's been with a prostitute? Since you've been with her already shouldn't you take responsibility, that would be more responsible and honorable, don't you think?

 

[Remixer]

What on earth is he supposed to take responsibility for?

Sleeping with her? Having been in a relationship with her?

And in your opinion, what would taking responsibility look like in this case?





Remixer

 

[MadamePapillon]

What on earth is he supposed to take responsibility for?

Sleeping with her? Having been in a relationship with her?

And in your opinion, what would taking responsibility look like in this case?





Remixer

I think he means giving her a chance. They were already in a relationship and she had the responsibility to come forward and be honest about what she was doing. She did so, so now it's his turn to take the responsibility of giving her a chance and not betraying her trust (because it must have taken a good deal of trust to tell somebody something like that about yourself).

That's my take on what he said anyways ... I could be wrong.

 

[Adulado]

I think he means giving her a chance. They were already in a relationship and she had the responsibility to come forward and be honest about what she was doing. She did so, so now it's his turn to take the responsibility of giving her a chance and not betraying her trust (because it must have taken a good deal of trust to tell somebody something like that about yourself).
That's my take on what he said anyways ... I could be wrong.

You're right. it's not for nothing she told him the truth besides who else will take responsibility for him for being with an ex-prostitute.

 

[Remixer]

I see.

So, in your opinion, he should disregard the impact her "truth" had on his own feelings and take responsibility for her to trust him so much?

I can understand how you might infer that he should help her situation and do something, and I agree to that extent.

However, he has zero obligation, in any way, to keep their relationship alive for the following reasons:

1. She slept and still CONTINUES to sleep with strangers for money.

2. She refused him helping her out financially.

3. I cannot imagine anything more hurtful that my woman could do to me than sleep with other men (for ANY reason) and be disloyal.

And if you seriously think that the simple fact that she must have trusted him a great deal to tell him about her secret nullifies everything else, then you are simply, and quite utterly, wrong.

For one, I agree he should respect her trust. Good.

Should HE trust a woman whom sleeps with others for money while in a relationship with him? No.

Should HE trust a woman whom refuses his help, although you claim that she must trust him a lot? No.

Should HE trust a woman whom CONTINUES to sleep with other men, disregarding his very own feelings to an incredibly rude extent? No.

As someone said before in this Thread (I don't remember who): A relationship is an emotional investment and the actions of the partner are very much his business.

For her part, she should take responsibility for his feelings first, don't you think?





Remixer

 

[Adulado]

I didn't read the part where he said she was still a prostitute while in relationship, I thought it was before. Then the author of this thread starts talking about morality, ethic etc etc then begin stating he's been with several girls. Then you figure the irony here. If he doesn't want to commit more mistakes then he should end in this relationship.

 

[ショーン]

my advice would be to make sure you know that you care enough where you don't want her to do something like this. You sound like you do care since you posted this so it shouldn't be terribly difficult for you to think of what to say.

 

[Nall-ohki]

Remixer,

A lot of people are calling you intolerant (believe me, it was all that was going through my head as I read your posts). While attempting to avoid a flame war, let me respond to your posts.

The first point I wish to make is that, while prostitution may be an undesirable profession to many, it is not moral or ethically wrong to many, many people. Try not to be so harsh when you speak about this if you want to avoid waves - people don't like being lectured to, and have very solid reasons for why prostitution is NOT an immoral act.

1. She slept and still CONTINUES to sleep with strangers for money.

2. She refused him helping her out financially.

You are putting much higher priority on 1. here than on 2.. To a lot of people, myself included, it is far less shameful and far more moral to take it upon yourself to solve your problems, even if it very unpleasant, than to rely on someone else to save you.

I do not see prostitution as a moral wrong, and so have no idea why being a prostitute would be worse than relying on someone else for everything. Indeed, I see very little difference in the end - in the second case, the relationship now has the addition of monetary gain. Is it somehow more moral in that case for her to stick around with him and provide companionship and sex to him instead of the same to other men? Both cases have their ups and downs, but at least in the first case, she retains her independence.

I myself would have a lot of trouble accepting my significant other bailing me out of debt, or becoming dependant upon them.

3. I cannot imagine anything more hurtful that my woman could do to me than sleep with other men (for ANY reason) and be disloyal.

How is she being disloyal? She said she's a prostitute, and being a prostitute is part of being her at this point in your life. She would not stop being a prostitute if she wasn't with him, and will continue being one after.

Additionally, this statement reeks of gender roles - that a woman is judged to be 'unclean', or less desirable because she engages in sexual behavior that is not the accepted norm. Millions of men pay women to have sex with them, but somehow women are the primary wrongdoers somehow. "It takes two to tango", as the saying goes.

Should HE trust a woman whom refuses his help, although you claim that she must trust him a lot? No.

This makes an assumption that refusing his help is something wrong with her, which really no one on this forum should be able to presume with the information available. How is refusing help untrustworthy?

If I offer to help you carry your suitcase, and you refuse, should I then think you are untrustworthy?

Should HE trust a woman whom CONTINUES to sleep with other men, disregarding his very own feelings to an incredibly rude extent? No.

Why does being a prostitute make someone untrustworthy? It may disregard his feelings, but I fail to see how continuing to support herself the way she has since before she met him is less important than how he feels about it. If he doesn't like it, he can ask her to change. If she is unwilling, he has to decide if he wants to stay in the relationship, or if he's going to get over it.

A woman does not have to change for a man, just as a man does not have to change for a woman. If the differences are unacceptable to either party, then they split up.

For her part, she should take responsibility for his feelings first, don't you think?

Please excuse my dismissal of this, but sentiment this is complete and utter crap. The romantic notion that someone always thinks of the other person first, sacrificing everything if necessary, is romantic drivel and only applies to people whose perceptions are completely altered by hormones during the beginning of a relationship.

People need to always look out for themselves, and their partners a close second. While concessions are a part of every relationship, ignoring your own desires and needs for another will make neither of you happy.

 

[Remixer]

Hey Nall-ohki,

cheers for responding to my comment.

I will respond in a pointwise-layout, with each point referring to each subpart of your comment, because I am extremely bad at doing multiple quotations in one comment (gomenesai Tsuyoiko).


1. Yes, it's quite common for people who don't understand my thought-pattern to call me intolerant. I've grown used to it.


2.

I didn't quite understand your point regarding on what I put my emphasis on. Yes, my first point had more emphasis on it than the second, but somehow you went and defended the second point instead of the first.

Personally, I see it as quite wrong, self-depreciating and not an occupation to respect. However, it is my very own opinion and I never force my opinions on others, as such, it wouldn't matter to me if his girlfriend USED to be a prostitute whatsoever.

I believe respecting oneself and knowing one self's true worth is more important than anything. To go and sleep with others for money instead of just relying on his/her very own partner financially to bail onself out of the situation would be the much worse choice to me.

Independence should never go above a continued act of indecency and disloyalty (to which I will come back in a bit) in my opinion.


3.

Being a prostitute differs at NOTHING with disloyalty to a partner. Because the reasoning is a physical value rather than emotions, it suddenly becomes an OK thing to do?

The analogy with a major closet-**** would probably fit best.

You go into a relationship with a woman, believing her to be decent in nature, and then when she gathers enough courage to tell you about her secret sex-affairs behind your back, it is alright with you simply because it was a part of her nature before you met her, stays the same while you are with her and is going to be the same afterward?

I have to say, your point regarding this is utter crap in its very own respect.

Also, you forget in your Tango-analogy, that the persons in the Tango are his girlfriend and a stranger. A stranger has no obligations towards the relationship between the two, but the partner does.

No, this is not about gender-roles, as you have wrongly assumed.

It is just that this case revolves around his female partner, and I as a man can relate better to his viewpoint than I can to a woman's, which is why I am so direct about this issue.

If the partner in question would be a man, I would also reply in kind, just with less reference to my personal standpoint.


4.

Another crap point to make, to be honest.

For one, I don't know you. Why on earth would I entrust you with my suitcase, with which you could very well run off to, unless it's an extremely heavy one?

In my opinion, a partner should be relied upon when the need arises. Not doing so I interpret to be a lack of trust towards the partner.


5.

I am not likely to understand your position, that prostitution does not infer untrustworthiness when continued in a relationship.

Yes, she is untrustworthy for the following reasons:

1) She slept with other men behind his back. Again referring to the "closet-****" analogy here.

2) She first had to trust him before she was able to tell him. If this occupation of hers is really something she likes to continue in order to keep her independence, she should have been honest about it, in order not to screw with his feelings.

I agree with you however. Neither a man nor a woman should have to change for their partners. That is why, if her actions hurt him for NO GOOD REASON, it would be the best for him to drop her at once and never make contact again.


6.

I have to say, your dismissal is utter crap in its own right.

I can gather that you tend more towards "The end justifies the means" rather than "The means justify the end" position.

Okay, let us assume that indeed her reasoning is valid, then his hurt feelings are of no concern to her, yes?

Because it was to look out for herself, it is all justified and is not even worth a word of apology, simply because his feelings dared to were hurt by her actions to maintain independence?

That is not only spiteful but also extremely self-centered.

Sorry for the generalization, but I would assume no less of an attitude from the United States or any other Western nation.

Oh look there, where Western greed and ridiculous indebtedness halted your economy.





Remixer

 

[MadamePapillon]

Sorry for the generalization, but I would assume no less of an attitude from the United States or any other Western nation.

Oh look there, where Western greed and ridiculous indebtedness halted your economy.

Oh Remixer, once again to completely fail to get the point.

I will offer you a little advice though, if you hate the west so much it's probably not a very good idea to go on a forum run and populated by western people and start bashing them. You talk about tact and restraint all the time yet fail to display any yourself.

Practice what you preach, hmm?

 

[Remixer]

Hmmmmm....

I would advise you to make a real point first, instead of a semi-serious poke at my character.

I don't hate the West, never have I stated so either. I don't like certain aspects of it, but then again I also don't like certain aspects of Japanese and Arab culture.

There is always a time and place for tactfulness.

The Western almost-trademark of greediness points towards a bigger problem within it, which is incredible selfishness.

Most notably, I find the UK, the US and Australia to have it as a predominant feature.

It is quite common in the EU mainland and Arab nations as well, but they also have something else in common. Namely, to implement systems for the good of the whole and not to work explicitly in favor of individuals.

To care for oneself only and disregard the feelings of another person is pure idiocy, in my opinion.

I would also advise you to understand my point first before drawing judgment upon it.






Remixer

 

[Haruspex]

Selfishness? Is there something wrong with it? The path to enrichment is the cornerstone of every capitalistic state, and as a part of that the desire to possess assets, which make up one's potential.
I'd rather dance a proper danse macabre than be bogged down by ambiguous and vague ideals.
Something halted our economy? So what? Western economy has seen worse and recovered.
We disregard other peoples' feelings all the time. If you want everyone to be happy, and no one to be exploited or abused, you face a puzzle alone that the whole humanity could not solve in over 5000 years.

 

[Remixer]

You make some incredibly weak points, my friend.

Selfishness with a negative effect on others? Of course there is something wrong with that. Why would I even need to explain the obviousness of the answer?

Whether you choose to follow ideals or not is your own right. If a prostitute as your loved one isn't a bother for you, why would I argue for your feelings, which aren't even hurt?

I am arguing in regards to the Thread Starter's feelings. He quite clearly had a massive issue with her profession and it appeared to me that he couldn't handle it. That alone is reason enough to vindicate my position on this issue along the entire Thread.

Yes, I do indeed want as many people as happy as possible. You are insinuating futile things.

Humanity has never seriously made an attempt to solve the puzzle.

If a child with a 1500-piece puzzle is not bothered by its state of incompleteness for longer than a few minutes, of course it will never be solved.

Should I as an individual stop my attempt because the majority does not have the patience to do so and would rather follow whims and employ short-term measures for short-lived satisfaction with long-term consequences?

Simply because people choose to be "free", although they aren't and continue to fool themselves, does not make it right.

And by the way, selfishness is the path to enrichment, my arse mate.

I have built my own financial basis from scratch without a desire of greed, and I don't believe myself or my actions to be an embodiment of selfishness.

Compare me to you, and you will find the opposite result of your first allegation on how the world of success works.






Remixer

 

[Nall-ohki]

Hey Remixer. Thanks for continuing the debate, and keeping the field civil. It's quite alright to attack arguments, as long as we're not shouting AT each other.

I believe respecting oneself and knowing one self's true worth is more important than anything. To go and sleep with others for money instead of just relying on his/her very own partner financially to bail onself out of the situation would be the much worse choice to me.

Independence should never go above a continued act of indecency and disloyalty (to which I will come back in a bit) in my opinion.

So I ask you: is independence, then, still important? I ask because as I have stated before: prostitution is not a shameful profession to me or many others. It seems very strange to me for someone to have to give up something that they do NOT consider shameful or indecent and have been doing to support themselves and lose their independence.

To someone like me, what you are suggesting is a lose-lose situation.

3.
Being a prostitute differs at NOTHING with disloyalty to a partner. Because the reasoning is a physical value rather than emotions, it suddenly becomes an OK thing to do?

The analogy with a major closet-**** would probably fit best.

Not even close to what I mean. Prostitution is providing a service, and that service is sex. The biggest thing I feel that you don't understand about my and others' point of view is simply this:

SEX IS SEX

Sex is not love.
Sex is not emotional proof.
Sex is not a sacred thing to be protected at all costs.

SEX IS SEX

That is not to say sex cannot be the things above, but it doesn't necessarily have any meaning. People have sex for all kinds of reasons, good and bad. Having others decide for me and for other people what sex should and should not be is a malicious form of control I strongly resent.

People need sex, and people need others to leave them alone about it.

You go into a relationship with a woman, believing her to be decent in nature, and then when she gathers enough courage to tell you about her secret sex-affairs behind your back, it is alright with you simply because it was a part of her nature before you met her, stays the same while you are with her and is going to be the same afterward?

As above, when one stops equating sex and emotional bonding, what you are saying makes very little sense.

For one, I don't know you. Why on earth would I entrust you with my suitcase, with which you could very well run off to, unless it's an extremely heavy one?

In my opinion, a partner should be relied upon when the need arises. Not doing so I interpret to be a lack of trust towards the partner.

I feel you missed the meat of my analogy, then. It was primarily to point out that what you said made no sense.

Interpretation is all well and good, but you have no idea why she would not want to do that - she may not even know herself.

For one thing, there was more at stake here than just trust - by trusting her partner financially, she would be giving up essentially her current life. Such a prospect should be terrifying to anyone, but would be far worse to possibly do it in someone you may not see a solid future in.

Before you hop on me for confirming what you said, let me say this: the OP clearly has issues with her past and such. I guarantee you that she was watching for his reaction when she told him about this stuff. Since he obviously had reservations, I'm sure she picked up on it. How would you trust someone in that situation who doesn't trust you? The logical answer would be to refuse in this case.

Yes, she is untrustworthy for the following reasons:

1) She slept with other men behind his back. Again referring to the "closet-****" analogy here.

2) She first had to trust him before she was able to tell him. If this occupation of hers is really something she likes to continue in order to keep her independence, she should have been honest about it, in order not to screw with his feelings.

The closet **** analogy doesn't work for me, as I've stated above. I also see no evidence that she was deceitful in what she was doing. Only reserved in letting him now because of his possible reaction (very understandable). Since he reacted in the way he did - coming to this forum and asking people what to do, he obviously was conflicted about it. Not because of anything she did wrong, but because many people have a problem with prostitutes.

I agree with you however. Neither a man nor a woman should have to change for their partners. That is why, if her actions hurt him for NO GOOD REASON, it would be the best for him to drop her at once and never make contact again.

Or she should leave him.

6.
I have to say, your dismissal is utter crap in its own right.

I can gather that you tend more towards "The end justifies the means" rather than "The means justify the end" position.

"End justifies the means" is hardly what I said. What I'm saying is that you do the best you can for others by watching out for yourself first. This does not mean that you should always only think of yourself only, but it does mean that for important things, you have to be sure that you're taken care of.

Okay, let us assume that indeed her reasoning is valid, then his hurt feelings are of no concern to her, yes?

No, his hurt feelings would be her concern because she loves him.

Because it was to look out for herself, it is all justified and is not even worth a word of apology, simply because his feelings dared to were hurt by her actions to maintain independence?

Pfft. Nothing's 'justified', because nothing has to be justified. She did nothing wrong here, and merely stated her needs. Needs are never 'wrong', and don't have to be justified to anyone: not your partner, not god. Sure this can be abused, but that's why we all have moral compasses.

The fact that he was hurt is unfortunate, but subvert her own needs to make him happy would make her unhappy, and consequently, him as well. Just because people love each other doesn't mean they can stay together. Hell, it doesn't even mean they can get together in the first place.

Sorry for the generalization, but I would assume no less of an attitude from the United States or any other Western nation.

Oh yeah, I guess you did attack me directly.

I'm kinda sad...

 

[Haruspex]

You make some incredibly weak points, my friend.

Selfishness with a negative effect on others? Of course there is something wrong with that. Why would I even need to explain the obviousness of the answer?

You need to explain that because it is not obvious. If it is that obvious, you are surely capable of formulating an argument in favor of it.

Simply because people choose to be "free", although they aren't and continue to fool themselves, does not make it right.

Ok, so you're offering freedom? Your plan would further constrain my freedom. If I have to choose between two options, I would like to be free to a larger extent if possible.

And by the way, selfishness is the path to enrichment, my arse mate.

Do you wish to strike deals that benefit you or your partners? Please don't give me the cheesy "both" answer, because I will truly lose all my faith in the sincerity of the human kind.

I have built my own financial basis from scratch without a desire of greed, and I don't believe myself or my actions to be an embodiment of selfishness.

You made money at the expense of others. Believe it or not, for every good deal you made, someone else was impoverished by the amount he could have kept had he negotiated with someone who was more lenient and soft.

Compare me to you, and you will find the opposite result of your first allegation on how the world of success works.

So does that make me unsuccessful?