Memorizing Kanji

[HeeroKoseru]

Hello, everyone. I want to start off saying I've just finished the first 750ish Kanji in RTK(Remembering the Kanji) I'm using Anki, and I'm using the 24/7(as much as possible) immersion method. I have chose this route, because it's the only thing that's actually made sense, and helped me. I was going to a class in college, but realized quickly it wasn't "real japanese" I don't want to learn polite Japanese, I want to learn street talk, slang, and basically real Japanese.My class was teaching me polite japanese while requiring we do 5 Kanji a week, so I quickly just dismissed the class.

5 Kanji a week? yeah, right. I'll do it myself. Plus, the instructor called 富士山 he called it "Fuji-chan" and I had to just drop this class, it was free anyways. (Wonder why LOL) Anyways, I've been doing this Kanji, and some of these I just cannot seem to remember, it's NOT many maybe like 5 out of the like 788 I'm learning. I've looked for different approaches to this, and I'm just really trying to see if you guys, or ladies have anything to recommend for me?

I've been told to just write it down thirty times each, every new Kanji I learn. But, I've not really tried it. Yeah, kind of stupid on my part, but I just found this article about it, and I'm just about to sleep. So, I don't have the time. Plus, I learned quiet a bit today. I usually just remember most of the Kanji without much trouble, like right now I'm watching a Japanese ending to Pokemon and I can see a lot of Kanji I know. It's pretty awesome, just having fun, and messing around.


Anything to recommend a beginning person for remembering Kanji better? Leave me something, anything if you don't mind. Have a good morning,evening,night wherever you are. ありがとう

 

[Angel Valis]

Wow...just wow...that was pretty disrespectful right there.

First, polite Japanese is just as "real" as casual Japanese, as is honorific Japanese. If you actually want to learn the language as it's actually spoken, you need to learn it all.

Second, 富士山 is read as "fujisan". In Japan, you can find quite a few anthropomorphic versions of Mt. Fuji, likely due to "san" also being a post-name honorific. Another post-name (diminutive) honorific is "chan".

While maybe a bit silly, they simply replaced "san" with "chan" (I highly doubt they were the first person to do so either); not the end of the world and is worth no more than perhaps an eye-roll if it bothers you for some reason.

 

[nekojita]

You have to define "memorizing" and "forgetting" first.

A lot of people seem to have the ideal that there's a binary "I know a kanji" vs "I don't know a kanji". But you might know a kanji but forget how to write it, or know it but get tripped up by its use in some obscure word/place-name (or in slang which often uses kanji idiosyncratically or as a play on words: うｐ乙! / コメ鯖 / 迷場面 etc - yes, I spend too much time on ニコニコ動画)

Reading (recognising a word/meaning, knowing how the word is pronounced), and production (writing or the ability to produce it using an IME etc) are different skills. Depending on which one you want to improve you should do different types of practice.

(ETA: 富士ちゃん! )

 

[Andromedashun]

Try zkanji. Good software for studying Kanji I think.

 

[HeeroKoseru]

Wow...just wow...that was pretty disrespectful right there.

First, polite Japanese is just as "real" as casual Japanese, as is honorific Japanese. If you actually want to learn the language as it's actually spoken, you need to learn it all.

Second, 窶｢xﾅｽmﾅｽR is read as "fujisan". In Japan, you can find quite a few anthropomorphic versions of Mt. Fuji, likely due to "san" also being a post-name honorific. Another post-name (diminutive) honorific is "chan".

While maybe a bit silly, they simply replaced "san" with "chan" (I highly doubt they were the first person to do so either); not the end of the world and is worth no more than perhaps an eye-roll if it bothers you for some reason.

Perhaps, I didn't clarify it enough. I don't want to learn JUST POLITE Japanese. I know people that have moved to be an english teacher knowing Japanese, and it was NOT the same at all. They couldn't understand most things being said to them, nor understand. I said I wanted to learn real Japanese, as in ALL Japanese. My class only taught the polite way, and pretty much the same as speaking either old english in America, or overly polite things that no one has ever said, and if they do it's once in a blue moon you'd ever hear it.

So, I took up learning it by myself.

 

[FinancialWar]

Hello, everyone. I want to start off saying I've just finished the first 750ish Kanji in RTK(Remembering the Kanji) I'm using Anki, and I'm using the 24/7(as much as possible) immersion method. I have chose this route, because it's the only thing that's actually made sense, and helped me. I was going to a class in college, but realized quickly it wasn't "real japanese" I don't want to learn polite Japanese, I want to learn street talk, slang, and basically real Japanese.My class was teaching me polite japanese while requiring we do 5 Kanji a week, so I quickly just dismissed the class.

5 Kanji a week? yeah, right. I'll do it myself. Plus, the instructor called 富士山 he called it "Fuji-chan" and I had to just drop this class, it was free anyways. (Wonder why LOL) Anyways, I've been doing this Kanji, and some of these I just cannot seem to remember, it's NOT many maybe like 5 out of the like 788 I'm learning. I've looked for different approaches to this, and I'm just really trying to see if you guys, or ladies have anything to recommend for me?

I've been told to just write it down thirty times each, every new Kanji I learn. But, I've not really tried it. Yeah, kind of stupid on my part, but I just found this article about it, and I'm just about to sleep. So, I don't have the time. Plus, I learned quiet a bit today. I usually just remember most of the Kanji without much trouble, like right now I'm watching a Japanese ending to Pokemon and I can see a lot of Kanji I know. It's pretty awesome, just having fun, and messing around.


Anything to recommend a beginning person for remembering Kanji better? Leave me something, anything if you don't mind. Have a good morning,evening,night wherever you are. ありがとう

Most people who do RTK memorise 2500 in three to six months, 100 to 200 Kanjis a week.

 

[FinancialWar]

Try zkanji. Good software for studying Kanji I think.

A software based on Kanjidict and SRS? what's the point?

 

[lanthas]

I'm using kanjidamage.com for learning. It's a bit like RTK in that it uses mnemonics, but it's even more focused on deconstructing each kanji into its parts (subkanji and radicals) and making sure to teach those parts before the kanji itself. This makes learning faster and remembering easier. Importantly, it also includes the pronunciations and a few common example words for each kanji, where RTK only gives you the meaning which by itself is not all that useful... After all, there are plenty of cases where the meanings of the individual kanji have nothing to do with the meaning of the word they're in (e.g. 宿題 lodging + topic = homework, 泥棒 mud + pole = burglar).

In my experience, if there's a kanji that you keep forgetting, the problem is that the mnemonic isn't good enough (for you). Instead of repeating it over and over trying to make it stick, realize that it's not working and make up your own, different mnemonic. Involve items and situations that you yourself have seen in real life or books/movies. For example, where the B-like radical in 限 is usually described as meaning "village", in my mnemonics it stands for Brussels . A specific city with specific attributes that lets me make more memorable (for me) mnemonics.

Good luck with your studies!

 

[HeeroKoseru]

Daaamn I'm doing it as fast as I can, but that's a crazy amount. I'm shooting for it though. For some reason, I get really addicted to learning them, and drawing them. Thanks for that though. I had no idea you could do it in like a three month span.

 

[HeeroKoseru]

I'm using kanjidamage.com for learning. It's a bit like RTK in that it uses mnemonics, but it's even more focused on deconstructing each kanji into its parts (subkanji and radicals) and making sure to teach those parts before the kanji itself. This makes learning faster and remembering easier. Importantly, it also includes the pronunciations and a few common example words for each kanji, where RTK only gives you the meaning which by itself is not all that useful... After all, there are plenty of cases where the meanings of the individual kanji have nothing to do with the meaning of the word they're in (e.g. 宿題 lodging + topic = homework, 泥棒 mud + pole = burglar).

In my experience, if there's a kanji that you keep forgetting, the problem is that the mnemonic isn't good enough (for you). Instead of repeating it over and over trying to make it stick, realize that it's not working and make up your own, different mnemonic. Involve items and situations that you yourself have seen in real life or books/movies. For example, where the B-like radical in 限 is usually described as meaning "village", in my mnemonics it stands for Brussels . A specific city with specific attributes that lets me make more memorable (for me) mnemonics.

Good luck with your studies!

That's a very useful piece of information! Thanks! I've been using this method, and didn't even see I did that as well thank you I just learned like the two I couldn't remember for the life of me.

 

[lanthas]

Good to hear!

There's another thing I should add: don't focus on learning the kanji at high speed. It makes you impatient, you start skipping ahead after only sort-of learning a character, and soon enough you get frustrated because you're looking ahead at the huge pile of characters that's still to come while at the same time you're already forgetting the ones that you learned previously.

Learning kanji is not a contest; and even if you don't go as fast as possible, you'll still be learning much faster than at school. Take it one character at a time; instead of looking ahead, look back at what you've already achieved; and make sure to be aware of yourself getting tired: after a certain point your learning efficiency (and effectiveness) drops so much that it's useless to continue, even if you didn't reach your "quota" for the day.

 

[HeeroKoseru]

Good to hear!

There's another thing I should add: don't focus on learning the kanji at high speed. It makes you impatient, you start skipping ahead after only sort-of learning a character, and soon enough you get frustrated because you're looking ahead at the huge pile of characters that's still to come while at the same time you're already forgetting the ones that you learned previously.

Learning kanji is not a contest; and even if you don't go as fast as possible, you'll still be learning much faster than at school. Take it one character at a time; instead of looking ahead, look back at what you've already achieved; and make sure to be aware of yourself getting tired: after a certain point your learning efficiency (and effectiveness) drops so much that it's useless to continue, even if you didn't reach your "quota" for the day.

Ah, yeah. I completely understand what you're saying here. I learned about 8-9 today, just because yesterday I kept failing the same 2 cards, but I thought of a story for them, plus I wrote them around 30 times a piece, and they are sticking very well for the moment. It may just be 8-9 today, but that's okay. No sense in rushing, anyways. The way I'm going I just want to be fluent in Kanji in atleast a years time, which is only about 6 characters daily.

And, I know after that since I'm listening to Japanese basically 24/7, or as much as I possibly can I'll be able to pronounce words a lot better, and have a good start on learning sentences, and vocabulary. I'm just taking it slow, because I'm actually enjoying the content I'm listening to, and sometimes it's just bothersome to even learn 20-30 a day, after a long day I just want to watch some raw japanese television, or play some video games.

Thanks for you advice, I really do appreciate it.

 

[Tamayo]

Perhaps, I didn't clarify it enough. I don't want to learn JUST POLITE Japanese. I know people that have moved to be an english teacher knowing Japanese, and it was NOT the same at all. They couldn't understand most things being said to them, nor understand. I said I wanted to learn real Japanese, as in ALL Japanese. My class only taught the polite way, and pretty much the same as speaking either old english in America, or overly polite things that no one has ever said, and if they do it's once in a blue moon you'd ever hear it.

So, I took up learning it by myself.

I see what you mean and totally sympathize with the urge to jump into regular, every-day talk with friends and family, and I'm sure you already know this, but you DO need some degree of fluency in polite Japanese before the informal. I think it's a lot safer to cover all your bases and make sure that you're prepared for any situation, rather than gearing up towards a very specific type of situation, even in spite of the fact that the specific one may be the case during the vast majority of the time.

What I mean is that, while you might seem very misplaced and awkward at times, I doubt you'll ever offend people by speaking to them politely when they weren't expecting it. On the other hand, it isn't too terribly hard to imagine making a few people angry if you talk to them in the casual form with no regards to their/your social status or your relationship with them.

Just try to keep in mind that casual speech doesn't always involve more than simply omitting and/or shortening parts of a sentence, so in many cases, it'll probably even be beneficial for you to know the polite form of what you're trying to say beforehand. Just some food for thought.

 

[nekojita]

I just want to be fluent in Kanji in at least a years time, which is only about 6 characters daily.

Wouldn't it be nice if things were linear and easy like that? Sadly that's not the truth. In practice when you get better at the language you'll come to realise that counting how many kanji you "know" is a pointless statistic. No such thing. Do you mean "know" as in learnt through a system like RTK or "know" as in able to pass ２級 of the 漢字検定, because those things technically cover the same number of kanji but in terms of actual difficulty are lightyears apart.

Rather than learning more and more obscure kanji you might be better off learning more vocabulary using kanji you already know. Also, if you think only the joyo kanji are used in real life and therefore you can learn so many and be "done", you've got some nasty surprises to come. "Real Japanese" also doesn't stick to government-issued lists.

 

[Torisashi]

Can you give examples of the kanji you are having a hard time remembering? Maybe people can give you hints on they remembered them.

 

[nahadef]

Daaamn I'm doing it as fast as I can, but that's a crazy amount. I'm shooting for it though. For some reason, I get really addicted to learning them, and drawing them. Thanks for that though. I had no idea you could do it in like a three month span.

That estimation was BS of sorts. The OP is Chinese and learned a majority of symbols in the native language first. Though the grammar is very different, and the kanji generally a little different, Chinese have a huge advantage in studying Japanese. A grain of salt is an understatement on how to read FW's posts on language study.

I can't give an optimal quote, but it's very difficult to learn kanji for vocab you don't already know. The visualization is one thing, the reading another, and the meaning yet another. That's a lot to ask at one time. I only studied kanji for about two years, and got about 700. And keep in mind that native speakers do 80 the first year, 160 the second, and 200 per year after that. 100 a week is unrealistic, and also not a road to fluency, as there is no review or reinforcement at that pace. Taking a little time is healthy for the human mind to process and integrate information.

 

[HeeroKoseru]

Wouldn't it be nice if things were linear and easy like that? Sadly that's not the truth. In practice when you get better at the language you'll come to realise that counting how many kanji you "know" is a pointless statistic. No such thing. Do you mean "know" as in learnt through a system like RTK or "know" as in able to pass ２級 of the 漢字検定, because those things technically cover the same number of kanji but in terms of actual difficulty are lightyears apart.

Rather than learning more and more obscure kanji you might be better off learning more vocabulary using kanji you already know. Also, if you think only the joyo kanji are used in real life and therefore you can learn so many and be "done", you've got some nasty surprises to come. "Real Japanese" also doesn't stick to government-issued lists.

I just meant learning through an RTK is all. I never plan to actually move to Japan, or anything. I just value the language, and find it very beautiful. I just have more respect for their culture, and language more than anything. The traditions that the Japanese practice are just great, and how well-mannered MOST of them are. Something about this culture just seems.. smart. Like not in a brain-wracking smart, but more like a smart way to live, and carry themselves.

My main part is I'd like to be able to speak it pretty fluently, but I've heard without knowing Kanji it's useless, so I just started from here I guess. I don't know much about which way would be better, I've heard Vocabulary just because, you'd learn everything at the same time, but I've also heard the same thing about when you start doing sentences knowing the Kanji it'll be much better.

The main thing I cannot get around is, I've been in immersion for about two months and I still can't pick up many words. Don't get me wrong, I've learned A LOT more than I would have. But, I do have sentence/vocabulary cards I cannot really understand them that well. I can however understand the vocabulary word, and pronounce it without trouble. I'm not even really sure how the hell you're supposed to do them either, come to think of it. With Kanji you just write it down, and go on after it sticks. Am I supposed to memorize the vocabulary word, and sentence or..? Say it aloud, and move on? I've never thought about it really. I just kind of skimmed through them. Oh, and hey thanks for the input. I like being realistic about things, and hearing others. It's helps a lot.

 

[HeeroKoseru]

I see what you mean and totally sympathize with the urge to jump into regular, every-day talk with friends and family, and I'm sure you already know this, but you DO need some degree of fluency in polite Japanese before the informal. I think it's a lot safer to cover all your bases and make sure that you're prepared for any situation, rather than gearing up towards a very specific type of situation, even in spite of the fact that the specific one may be the case during the vast majority of the time.

What I mean is that, while you might seem very misplaced and awkward at times, I doubt you'll ever offend people by speaking to them politely when they weren't expecting it. On the other hand, it isn't too terribly hard to imagine making a few people angry if you talk to them in the casual form with no regards to their/your social status or your relationship with them.

Just try to keep in mind that casual speech doesn't always involve more than simply omitting and/or shortening parts of a sentence, so in many cases, it'll probably even be beneficial for you to know the polite form of what you're trying to say beforehand. Just some food for thought.

Thanks, for the input I really appreciate it. I do plan to learn it all eventually. I know I need to learn both. I do not plan to ever migrate to Japan, just vacation there. I appreciate the culture, and have since a child but enough about that. I just strictly meant that I wanted to learn it all, the first guy that responded to my thread came across as I was being mean about it, or something. I'm just implying I want to learn Japanese from Japanese, not an American guy that just has a bunch of plastic models on his desk going on about Japan, without ever being there. He used way too many things incorrectly, and I was just thrown off by him.

The man himself is around 38, and still acts like one of those kids sitting at the Thanksgiving table with "YOU KNOW WHAT I KNOW ABOUT JAPAN AND ANIME?!?!" I dunno, I went to one Anime Convention, and never went back because that's what it reminded me of. Plus, if I'm actually going to learn Japanese.. I don't think it'd be known to go there for 45 minutes once a week. That's like a mockery of trying to learn any language, you know? Hopefully you get what I'm saying. That's the best way I can explain it, I don't mean to come across as a douche. I don't like it when people got into Japan, just for anime itself. Japan didn't come from anime, it's the opposite y'know? Anime comes from Japan, but it's like the last thing that has any interesting things compared to the entire country.

I like Japanese thought process, it's very interested. Which is why I'd like to understand it more. Sorry for the rant. Thanks for your input, friend!

 

[HeeroKoseru]

That estimation was BS of sorts. The OP is Chinese and learned a majority of symbols in the native language first. Though the grammar is very different, and the kanji generally a little different, Chinese have a huge advantage in studying Japanese. A grain of salt is an understatement on how to read FW's posts on language study.

I can't give an optimal quote, but it's very difficult to learn kanji for vocab you don't already know. The visualization is one thing, the reading another, and the meaning yet another. That's a lot to ask at one time. I only studied kanji for about two years, and got about 700. And keep in mind that native speakers do 80 the first year, 160 the second, and 200 per year after that. 100 a week is unrealistic, and also not a road to fluency, as there is no review or reinforcement at that pace. Taking a little time is healthy for the human mind to process and integrate information.

Oh, I didn't even realize that. If you know Hanzi, I'm sure it'd be A LOT easier on you. Yes, you're right on the Kanji. Do you happen to know if they learn how to speak it, before Kanji? LOL wait, that sounds stupid.. Of course, how would they communicate? Right? So, it is possible to learn how to speak while learning Kanji? I'd really like to take my time to learn Kanji, and focus more on communcation/vocabulary, but I'm really confused how to start doing it. Any tips ? I'm sorry if that sounded stupid. yet again, though I'm doing this all on my own so it'd be simple just to ask the stupid questions, and get them out of the way, right?

 

[FinancialWar]

That estimation was BS of sorts. The OP is Chinese and learned a majority of symbols in the native language first. Though the grammar is very different, and the kanji generally a little different, Chinese have a huge advantage in studying Japanese. A grain of salt is an understatement on how to read FW's posts on language study.

I can't give an optimal quote, but it's very difficult to learn kanji for vocab you don't already know. The visualization is one thing, the reading another, and the meaning yet another. That's a lot to ask at one time. I only studied kanji for about two years, and got about 700. And keep in mind that native speakers do 80 the first year, 160 the second, and 200 per year after that. 100 a week is unrealistic, and also not a road to fluency, as there is no review or reinforcement at that pace. Taking a little time is healthy for the human mind to process and integrate information.

The hell you talking amount? Race have nothing to do with it. Most white people can finish it in that time frame, and obviously you can not so you're justify it for your inferior memory.

And your comparing RTK to Japanese kanji education, they are two completely different system, Japanese Kanji education is based mainly on frequency and designed for natives Japanese people in a Japanese environment over a span of 13 years. RTK is based on mnemonic techniques to memorise Kanji by in order of character structural complicity and designed for non-native Japanese to memorise near the same amount of Kanji as the native in as short amount of time as possible instead of 13 years.

In fact, it's obvious that you have never done RTK because if you have read the instruction in the RTK1, the recommended time is only about six months, so you should just stop talking about things you don't understand.

In a nutshell

Japanese Kanji education: for native Japanese, 13 years, order of frequency, no memorisation technique, non-systemic, 2136 Kanji, reading and writing is taught simultaneously.

RTK: for non-native, three to six months, order of structure complicity, mnemonic technique, systemic, 2000 Kanji. writing is taught in RTK1, reading taught in RTK2.

The "I just finished RTK1, please congratulate me" thread. - Reviewing the Kanji - Learning Japanese

OP, if you want real advice on Kanji, go to koohii.com, that site dedicate themselves to the RTK method and other goal-oriented Japanese language learning methods, while here you are going to get are noob and erroneous advices exemplified by nahadef on things they obviously never done before.

 

[nahadef]

Oh, I didn't even realize that. If you know Hanzi, I'm sure it'd be A LOT easier on you. Yes, you're right on the Kanji. Do you happen to know if they learn how to speak it, before Kanji? LOL wait, that sounds stupid.. Of course, how would they communicate? Right? So, it is possible to learn how to speak while learning Kanji? I'd really like to take my time to learn Kanji, and focus more on communcation/vocabulary, but I'm really confused how to start doing it. Any tips ? I'm sorry if that sounded stupid. yet again, though I'm doing this all on my own so it'd be simple just to ask the stupid questions, and get them out of the way, right?

It's simply crazy to learn to read before you can speak, which is why kids speak at age two, and they start to read around five (depending on the parent).

Most textbooks are light on kanji in the early units. Just get a beginners text. Personally, I didn't like the texts which were rooted in English. Depending on your familiarity with Japanese, you may or may not need explanations on the major differences. If not, a simple N5 text would build up your vocabulary and introduce you to essential grammar points. Take a look here: Amazon.co.jp: n5: 窶怒

I really think low level students are served best by self study. Around mid level, the differences become difficult enough to justify taking classes.

The hell you talking amount? Race have nothing to do with it. Most white people can finish it in that time frame, and obviously you can not so you're justify it for your inferior memory.

I know you're not the sharpest tool in the shed, but this statement goes way beyond your usual ignorance. For the record, in case you're honestly confused, no, I don't think kanji is a genetic thing. Holy ****, that's a dumb supposition. Nice one, FW. Did you honestly think it was genetic? Unbelievable.

3000 kanji in six months is not realistic, and is likely to be forgotten, no matter how white you are.

 

[ismail]

Perhaps, I didn't clarify it enough. I don't want to learn JUST POLITE Japanese. I know people that have moved to be an english teacher knowing Japanese, and it was NOT the same at all. They couldn't understand most things being said to them, nor understand. I said I wanted to learn real Japanese, as in ALL Japanese. My class only taught the polite way, and pretty much the same as speaking either old english in America, or overly polite things that no one has ever said, and if they do it's once in a blue moon you'd ever hear it.

So, I took up learning it by myself.

Japan is not like other countries, people are actually talking the polite way most of the time.
don't think you'll look cool in Japan if you talk like manga characters (well they will give the impression they are impressed, but don't think they really are).

 

[FinancialWar]

A Chinese person can go through RTK in maybe a week or two. A non-Chinese person, three to six six months, so I have no idea what you were trying to say I'm Chinese and the estimate is unrealised. RTK wasn't designed for Chinese. Maybe it's unrealistic for you because you can only do 700 in two years. Maybe if you draw less cartoon and study more Kanji. Just a food for thought...

ps. stop forcing your intellectual limitation upon others. RTK method is tried and proven

Please rephrase "unrealistic for me" in the future.

 

[nahadef]

A Chinese person can go through RTK in maybe a week or two. A non-Chinese person, three to six six months, so I have no idea what you were trying to say I'm Chinese and the estimate is unrealised. RTK wasn't designed for Chinese. Maybe it's unrealistic for you because you can only do 700 in two years. Maybe if you draw less cartoon and study more Kanji. Just a food for thought...

I stopped studying kanji five years ago. Remember that the next time you want to make a nonsensical insult.

Edit: Wait, I thought you said it wasn't about race... Why are you bringing up Chinese people now? Geez....

 

[nahadef]

ps. stop forcing your intellectual limitation upon others. RTK method is tried and proven

Please rephrase "unrealistic for me" in the future.

To address your edits:
Can we have a survey of how many people learned 3000 kanji in six months and who think that is a reasonable way to study? Unrealistic, not that it can technically be done, but that if you do it, you have actually learned and can use them. When learning a language and trying to communicate, spending all your study time learning upper level characters is a waste of time. You learn to crawl before you walk.

Japanese learn 2000 kanji over eleven years or so. They must be real dummies according to your logic.

I know you're not a happy guy, but why do you have to have these bitter posts to emphasise the fact all the time? "3000 kanji in six months is what intelligent people do..."