Mac's Learning English

Mac · 28 Apr 2004

Thank you for your information, DoMo.
I'm going to learn English by using those homepages from today.

akihabara · 29 Apr 2004

I got fed up with eating rice. 米は食べるのはもうたくさんだわ！
I'm fed up with eating rice. 米を食べるのに飽き飽きしている。

英語ではその二つの文の意味をはっきり区別するのは難しいです。
日本語でも意味はほぼ同じですか？二つ目の文はちょっと言い訳そうだけど。

昨日のＮＨＫラジオの英会話番組でたまたま、"be + (過去分詞)" と "get + (過去分詞)" の違いについて説明していました。それによると、"be + (過去分詞)" は単に事実を伝えるのに対して、"get + (過去分詞)" はインフォーマルで、何かに「やられる」という感じがあるとのことです。
In the yesterday lesson of NHK radio english program, there happened to be a explanation of the differece between "be + (past participle)" and "get + (past participle)". According to that, "get+" is rather informal and has a feeling of unexpectedly being forced by something, whereas "be+" conveys facts simply.
これは英語の "米の場合" にも当てはまるのでしょうか？
Does this go for the "rice case" in English ?

日本語では確かに意味としては同じですが、やはり
もうたくさんだわ！＝＞感情をぶつけている。(vent her feelings)
飽き飽きしている。＝＞事実を述べている。 (state the facts)
の違いがあります。

Elizabeth · 29 Apr 2004

ﾂ催ｰ窶愿ｺ窶堙娯?嗄窶喩窶嗚ﾆ停?ｰﾆ淡ﾆ棚窶堙娯?ｰp窶ｰﾃｯﾋ彙窶敕披?枠窶堙窶堋ｽ窶堙懌?堋ｽ窶堙慊、"be + (窶ｰﾃ溪?ｹﾅｽ窶｢ﾂｪﾅｽﾅ?" 窶堙 "get + (窶ｰﾃ溪?ｹﾅｽ窶｢ﾂｪﾅｽﾅ?" 窶堙戸?｡窶堋｢窶堙俄?堙や?堋｢窶堙?静?窶督ｾ窶堋ｵ窶堙??堋｢窶堙懌?堋ｵ窶堋ｽﾂ。窶堋ｻ窶堙ｪ窶堙俄?堙ｦ窶堙ｩ窶堙?、"be + (窶ｰﾃ溪?ｹﾅｽ窶｢ﾂｪﾅｽﾅ?" 窶堙坂?儕窶堙嫁ｽ窶毒ｽﾃ?窶堙ｰ窶彖窶堋ｦ窶堙ｩ窶堙娯?堙俄?佚寂?堋ｵ窶堙?、"get + (窶ｰﾃ溪?ｹﾅｽ窶｢ﾂｪﾅｽﾅ?" 窶堙哉辰ﾆ停?愴稚ﾆ辿ﾂーﾆ筑ﾆ停?ｹ窶堙?、窶ｰﾂｽ窶堋ｩ窶堙可「窶堙｢窶堙ｧ窶堙ｪ窶堙ｩﾂ」窶堙??堋｢窶堋､ﾅ?'窶堋ｶ窶堋ｪ窶堋?窶堙ｩ窶堙??堙娯?堋ｱ窶堙??堙??堋ｷﾂ。
In the yesterday lesson of NHK radio english program, there happened to be a explanation of the differece between "be + (past participle)" and "get + (past participle)". According to that, "get+" is rather informal and has a feeling of unexpectedly being forced by something, whereas "be+" conveys facts simply.
窶堋ｱ窶堙ｪ窶堙坂?ｰpﾅ津ｪ窶堙 "窶｢ﾃ??堙個湘ｪﾂ坂?｡" 窶堙俄?堙?窶懌?凪?堙??堙坂?堙懌?堙ｩ窶堙娯?堙??堋ｵ窶堙･窶堋､窶堋ｩﾂ？
Does this go for the "rice case" in English ?

Was this American English they were talking about ? Got + (past participle) is more informal, but not necessarily about anything unexpected or that conveys a sense of being forced. Do you happen to remember a particular example they used, Akihabara? Almost the opposite in fact. It is used more than anything as an excuse or reason for something that developed gradually over time. (Because) I got (or became) so sick of eating rice during the war I eventually stopped. Or, I got (became) so tired of eating rice that I divorced my wife. Something of that order.

akihabara · 30 Apr 2004

Er, yes American English it is. I translated "窶堙｢窶堙ｧ窶堙ｪ窶堙ｩ" into "being forced", but it may be wrong, I don't know.
Could you read the pages of the textbook here please? Thank you, in advance.
サービス終了のお知らせ

One of the examples is,
"You'll get stuck in a rut and burn out."

Elizabeth · 30 Apr 2004

akihabara said:
Er, yes American English it is. I translated "窶堙｢窶堙ｧ窶堙ｪ窶堙ｩ" into "being forced", but it may be wrong, I don't know.

I'm not exactly sure either but isn't the rareru conjugation normally the passive form ?

Elizabeth · 30 Apr 2004

Could you read the pages of the textbook here please? Thank you, in advance.
サービス終了のお知らせ

One of the examples is,
"You'll get stuck in a rut and burn out."

I'll read them and get back on this shortly.

PaulTB · 30 Apr 2004

Well 窶堙｢窶堙ｧ窶堙ｪ窶堙ｩ could be used for

"I got done by the police" ﾅ遅ﾅｽ@窶堙俄?堙｢窶堙ｧ窶堙ｪ窶堋ｽ

but I'm not sure that was the usage being got at. ;-)

Elizabeth said:
I'm not exactly sure either but isn't the rareru conjugation normally the passive form ?

suffering passive. It often implies some degree of not-being-able-to-avoid [action].

Elizabeth · 30 Apr 2004

PaulTB said:
Well 窶堙｢窶堙ｧ窶堙ｪ窶堙ｩ could be used for

"I got done by the police" ﾅ遅ﾅｽ@窶堙俄?堙｢窶堙ｧ窶堙ｪ窶堋ｽ

but I'm not sure that was the usage being got at. ;-)

suffering passive. It often implies some degree of not-being-able-to-avoid [action].

Looking just at the workform example of 'Our office got renovated' v. 'Our office was renovated' both can certainly be unavoidable and uncontrollable depending on the situation, although I don't agree that 'got' in this case necessarily has the nuance of something sudden or drastic. Perhaps 窶堙｢窶堋ｳ窶堋ｹ窶堙ｩ would be a closer translation of forced against your will by outside control as it's usually used in English. :?

窶氾｡窶堋ｦ窶堙篠、ﾂ「ﾆ棚ﾆ稚ﾆ達ﾆ湛窶堋ｪ窶ｰﾃｼ窶倪?｢窶堋ｳ窶堙ｪ窶堙懌?堋ｵ窶堋ｽﾂ」窶堙?陳ｾ窶堋｢窶堋ｽ窶堋｢ﾂ湘ｪﾂ坂?｡ﾂ、ﾅｽg窶堋｢窶堙｢窶堋ｷ窶堋ｭ窶堙遺?堙ｩﾂ湘｣ﾂ、ﾅ致窶ｰﾃｦ窶堙ｰ窶板ｧ窶堙??堙??堙｢窶堙ｩ窶堋ｱ窶堙??堙??堋ｷ窶堋ｩ窶堙ｧﾂ、Our office was renovated.窶堙??堋ｷ窶堙ｩ窶堙娯?堋ｪ窶｢ﾂ≫?凖岩?堙??堋ｵ窶堙･窶堋､ﾂ。窶堋ｱ窶堙ｪ窶堙俄?佚寂?堋ｵ窶堙?、Our office got renovated.窶堙債、窶ｰﾂｽ窶堋ｩﾂ「ﾂ（窶堋｢窶堋ｫ窶堙遺?堙ｨﾂ）窶堙｢窶堙ｧ窶堙ｪ窶堙??堋ｵ窶堙懌?堙≫?堋ｽﾂ」窶堙??堋｢窶堋､ﾆ男ﾆ停?ｦﾆ但ﾆ停?愴湛窶堋ｪ窶堋?窶堙ｨﾂ、窶堋ｿ窶堙･窶堙≫?堙?陳ｾ窶堋ｦ窶堙遺?堋｢ﾅ?'窶堋ｶ窶堋ｪ窶堋?窶堙ｨ窶堙懌?堋ｷﾂ。

akihabara · 1 May 2004

Thank you for your comments and rapid reply. Sorry, I've been got stuck in off-line chores.
It would appear that it depends on the context and I had better not to believe everything I read in textbooks especially in a matter of fine nuance. As to these sense of English, I wish I could have native friends near myself.
But the problem is that it took me over an hour to write this.

Elizabeth said:
Perhaps 窶堙｢窶堋ｳ窶堋ｹ窶堙ｩ would be a closer translation of forced against your will by outside control as it's usually used in English.

I think you mean 窶堋ｳ窶堋ｹ窶堙ｧ窶堙ｪ窶堙ｩ.
I was fired by the company.
ﾅｽ窶樞?堙坂?ｰﾃｯﾅｽﾃ絶?堙ｰﾅｽﾂｫ窶堙溪?堋ｳ窶堋ｹ窶堙ｧ窶堙ｪ窶堋ｽﾂ。
emphasises that I was forced to leave. ( So I have a grudge against it. I will kill them sometime soon. [just a joke])
ﾅｽ窶樞?堙坂?ｰﾃｯﾅｽﾃ絶?堙ｰﾅｽﾃｱ窶堙俄?堙遺?堙≫?堋ｽﾂ。
Although the company made me leave there, I don't think I want to kill them.
There are a lot of decent companies in the world.
窶堋ｶ窶堙｡ﾂ、窶堙懌?堋ｽ窶堙仰！

Elizabeth · 1 May 2004

I think you mean 窶堋ｳ窶堋ｹ窶堙ｧ窶堙ｪ窶堙ｩ.
I was fired by the company.
ﾅｽ窶樞?堙坂?ｰﾃｯﾅｽﾃ絶?堙ｰﾅｽﾂｫ窶堙溪?堋ｳ窶堋ｹ窶堙ｧ窶堙ｪ窶堋ｽﾂ。
emphasises that I was forced to leave. ( So I have a grudge against it. I will kill them sometime soon. [just a joke])
ﾅｽ窶樞?堙坂?ｰﾃｯﾅｽﾃ絶?堙ｰﾅｽﾃｱ窶堙俄?堙遺?堙≫?堋ｽﾂ。
Although the company made me leave there, I don't think I want to kill them.
There are a lot of decent companies in the world.
窶堋ｶ窶堙｡ﾂ、窶堙懌?堋ｽ窶堙仰！

In the case of rareru it depends on the verb. Our office got renovated doesn't imply we were forced to have it done or that it was anything unpleasant. Especially because it is so informal you can even use it in a slightly upbeat tone, like you are bragging about your office (as opposed to the others) already having been done.

And there's no 窶堙｢窶堋ｳ窶堋ｹ窶堙ｩﾂ？ Make (force) someone into doing something? Anyway, as far as I'm aware the causative 窶堋ｳ窶堋ｹ窶堙ｩﾂﾂ（窶堋ｳ窶堋ｹ窶堙ｧ窶堙ｪ窶堙ｩﾂ） form always implies forcing/being forced or allowing/being allowed.

Mac's Learning English

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