The bilingual books work better because the translations are generally more faithful to each other. This example is not so great. "Costing me a fortune in free drinks" is not the best translation from a learning perspective. I don't even think it's a great translation in general.Regarding the method you describe, I'm thinking you mean something like this.
And that's why people are still helping you.I've been polite and civil in my attempts at understanding.
They would say oh this guy is seriously trying to learn Japanese. I want to help him. Otherwise the default reaction will be oh yet another one of these people trying to learn Japanese from song lyrics and Google.Regardless, suppose I were to go through Genki and ask a question about it here, what would people say? Check out the text book? Ok, I'll help you out because you're doing the textbook now? I mean, it started with exposure to authentic text not being effective to me having to use a specific textbook (not Tae Kim's book).
You seem pretty adept at learning concepts from reference material and parsing out things. It doesn't seem like a big stretch to learn from material that's actually designed for learning.I'd like if someone took the time to teach me things based on the material I bring without forcing to use the method they've used. I think it's a fair request considering it can certainly be ignored. In fact, I'd rather be ignored then coerced to use a method which I know doesn't work for me.
If someone were to ask me money to help I would comply. I've paid people before through paypal for their criticism of my drawings without them asking. I already a couple of people in mind for this thread I'd like to reward for their help. Let's not make assumptions here pleaseYou're essentially asking for a bunch of free labor to teach you very basic stuff that's covered in beginning courses of Japanese.
Do you understand the text or do you only think you understand it? In other words, has a proficient reader checked your translation or are you merely assuming it's correct?I've been translating Paper Mario on the side and I can honestly say I can understand most of what's written.
Neither. I mean not exactly.Do you understand the text or do you only think you understand it? In other words, has a proficient reader checked your translation or are you merely assuming it's correct?
Don't worry, that's certainly my intention. I have a few translations/comments ready but I want to finish what I've already started before moving on.If you don't, feel free to post some segments here on the forum.
Which is not what I'm doing. I've explained at length and more than once that the translation exercise I'm pursuing is part of what I'm doing to learn, not all of it. Anyone willing to look beyond appearances will realize this.oh yet another one of these people trying to learn Japanese from song lyrics and Google.
Well hopefully people will realize that if I were to give in to Genki as the sole way to learn a language I would've done so the first 5 times I was told to do soBut you will just have to listen to the constant refrain of get a text book. ;-)
So that's why I couldn't figure it out, I wasn't parsing the text correctly.As for いっぱいの酒代, it's actually [いっぱいの酒]代, i.e, いっぱいの酒の代金, as same as 一食の食事代, 一冊の本代 or 一足の靴代
I don't know why that is but like you said, I should probably focus on covering more of the basics asap than investigate this one further.Speaking strictly, いっぱい分の酒代 is more grammatical, but those expressions are quite commonly used in conversations.
Yes, that's right.Finally, just for confirmation, ルイネロさんもうやめにしないかい? is said by the barman right before these lines?
Well that pretty much clears it up. It confirms that it's too complex for me at this point in time.Anyway, I would usually explain あんたの当たらない占いなんかいっぱいの酒代にもなりゃしないよ。 like this;
The core of the sentence is 占いなんか酒代にならない.
あんたの当たらない modifies 占い.
いっぱいの modifies 酒代.
も is for emphasis here, meaning "even".
なりゃしない is a colloquial contraction of なりはしない. "The -masu stem of verb + はしない" is an emphasized negative form, so なりはしない is almost the same as ならない in meaning.
Here's the definition of なる.
Alright, so here's another one. This one from a fortune teller in Paper Mario:
「空中に ふわふわ うかぶ 街の中
とうぎ場の ロビーが 見えます かいだんを おぼった先にある」
''Inside a city floating in the sky, I see that there are some stairs in the lobby of the competition arena.''
(there's more to it but I wanted to start small).
1) One thing I've noticed is that expressions like: はわふわ seem to happen quite often in Japanese. I found another one earlier one: まあまあ. Is there a word for those types of expressions?
先 isn't likely to be a typo, but おぼった almost certainly is. Look again and see if it isn't のぼった.2) The part I'm finding more difficult is (warning: potentially basic question asked by a beginner):
「おぼった先にある」
I'm fine with the にある construction which says that something exists there (inanimate object). It's the 「おぼった」 which is giving me trouble. Maybe the 先 is a typo on my part.
Zizka said:Well hopefully people will realize that if I were to give in to Genki as the sole way to learn a language I would've done so the first 5 times I was told to do so.
Zizka said:I think we can in good faith that both definitions are basically the same. So to dismiss A Guide to Japanese Grammar as valuable reference to learn the language because it's not qualified as textbook is unfair. What does it matter if I learn this information from Genki or from AGJG?
The first sentence ends with 見えます, i.e., 空中に ふわふわ うかぶ 街の中 とうぎ場の ロビーが 見えます is a single sentence, and かいだんを のぼった先にある is the beginning of the next sentence, which continues to the next line. Try again.Alright, so here's another one. This one from a fortune teller in Paper Mario:
「空中に ふわふわ うかぶ 街の中
とうぎ場の ロビーが 見えます かいだんを おぼった先にある」
''Inside a city floating in the sky, I see that there are some stairs in the lobby of the competition arena.''
(there's more to it but I wanted to start small).
Ah great, thanks. I figured there was some kind of terminology for this.ふわふわ is a 擬態語(ぎたいご), a mimetic word, which often describe types of movement, shapes or feelings in terms through symbolic sounds.
I wasn't sure about this one. I looked up both in the dictionary. Good to know.This is a minor thing, but 空中 is not the same as 空.
Question 1: Why not put a period if it's the end of the sentence? It is because it's more of an independent clause than a full sentence? Anyways, I'll try again.The first sentence ends with 見えます, i.e., 空中に ふわふわ うかぶ 街の中 とうぎ場の ロビーが 見えます is a single sentence, and かいだんを のぼった先にある
That's fine, I sort of derailed a bit myself. As long as it doesn't completely change tangent.Since I've answered a few of your questions in my post above, maybe you'll indulge me here.
Well, there are more than one verb here:The three lines in the second picture is a single sentence. What is the core of the sentence?
Hint: the core is "an object and the main verb".
Hint2: 先 is not used only for "temporal".
This is one thing that I'm very certain you're not clear on, as it's more of an advanced point than the more simple areas you seem to be struggling with. With the caveat that it may be beyond your current level, here is my attempt to explain this.Question 2: I find the にある there a bit out of place. Why not simply write:
「かいだんを のぼった」?
It's the particle 「に」with the 「ある」used to express the existence of inanimate objects.
Exactly. That's why the first sentence ends with 見えます, too. If the main verb is (先に)ある, your translation should be "there is~/ it exists ~", not "I see". (This is just for your future reference, but your initial English translation "I see that there are some stairs in the lobby of the competition arena." is translated to とうぎ場のロビーにかいだんがあるのが見えます.)The one at the very end?
Sure! If it's any comfort, I went to check for Genki on amazon this morning. I was a bit put off by the price which goes over 100$. I probably would've gotten it if it had been cheaper. Even the used copies on amazon.ca are about the same price. This is for all three books though (Correction key, workbook and textbook).We just want to help, and I appreciate that you're trying to understand that.
Is a noun phrase because even though there's a verb here, it's connected to 「かいだん」with the 「の」particle which is used to link 普通名詞(s) therefore implying that we're dealing with a noun phrase?階段をのぼった先 is a noun phrase. The main noun is 先, and it is being modified by 階段をのぼった.
The point is not the difference between using one reference material over another. The point is not taking time to learn specific lessons where specific topics are covered such as verb conjugation, transitive/intransitive verb handling, adjective tense, na-adjective vs. i-adjective, etc. You are haphazardly covering them as they come up in the material you are trying to read.I think we can in good faith that both definitions are basically the same. So to dismiss A Guide to Japanese Grammar as valuable reference to learn the language because it's not qualified as textbook is unfair. What does it matter if I learn this information from Genki or from AGJG?
One thing I've been told is that the internet can't suffice to learn the language and yet AGJG is available for free. Given that the information provided in the comparison above is nearly identical, I don't see what the issue with using the internet would be. It's be dishonest to limit the content of Genki and AGJG to the 「の」particle, but I think it warrants rethinking some Japanese learning related axioms Even then, I bought the books, I'm just saying that it's not so simple as saying: "Learning from the internet doesn't work, give it up."
I'm taking some time to reply to this while waiting for some explanations about my last translation attempt.You are haphazardly covering them as they come up in the material you are trying to read.
So here goes:
「かいだんを のぼった先にある
トビラの 近くに はられている 紙を
風使いの チカラを はがすのです。」
"Use strong wind on the paper stuck on the wall near the door at the top of the stairs to rip it off."
Regarding the explanation about にある, I read it 4 times to try to understand it. What I understand is that it's used to express that the noun phrase that precedes it is in a state of existence.
Would I be right to say that:
Is a noun phrase because even though there's a verb here, it's connected to 「かいだん」with the 「の」particle which is used to link 普通名詞(s) therefore implying that we're dealing with a noun phrase?
What I don't understand here is why のぼった is in the past. If you were to give instructions to someone, you wouldn't use the past, would you? I mean, it's not the passive form here so I guess it's something of an imperative like we would use when giving instructions.
A wise choice.Finally, regarding the money, I was thinking of donating to the forum directly.
One of the highest compliments a person will ever receive on this forum...Your case however appears to not be hopeless.
Regarding トビラ, I couldn't find "column" anywhere as a definition for it. I couldn't find it in both kana in a dictionary or on Google. In-game, the paper was near a door on top of the stairs which further reinforces that トビラ is essentially 扉 here.トビラの 近くに はられている 紙を
column (poss.) nearby (at) affixed(intrans.) paper (direct-obj)
Regarding this excerpt, I don't understand how you got the "strong wind" which is why I left it out of my translation. 使う means to use. If I look up 使い on jinsho I get:風使いの チカラを はがすのです。
wind-strong (noun-modifier) force (direct-obj) tear-off (explanatory) (polite).
Also, in your first excerpt you defined 「の」as a "possessive" while in the second one you used it as a "noun-modifier". Are they mutually interchangeable in this context? This is probably more advanced stuff which doesn't need to be covered now but I'm just curious.Noun - used as a suffix, Noun - used as a prefix
4. use; usage; user;
Yes, you're right. Sorry, it's door.Regarding トビラ, I couldn't find "column" anywhere as a definition for it. I couldn't find it in both kana in a dictionary or on Google. In-game, the paper was near a door on top of the stairs which further reinforces that トビラ is essentially 扉 here.
Again, my bad. Which is another reason why I often don't jump into these threads.Regarding this excerpt, I don't understand how you got the "strong wind" which is why I left it out of my translation. 使う means to use. If I look up 使い on jinsho I get:
I also mentioned earlier, I don't really get into the grammar any more. I don't really differentiate between them in my mind. I just thought that from an English-speaking perspective this usage doesn't seem like the possessive usage so I called it a noun-modifier.Also, in your first excerpt you defined 「の」as a "possessive" while in the second one you used it as a "noun-modifier". Are they mutually interchangeable in this context? This is probably more advanced stuff which doesn't need to be covered now but I'm just curious.
That's good to hear. It's a significantly different price.(by the way, I find the grammatical explanation superior to A Guide to Japanese Grammar).
Sure! If it's any comfort, I went to check for Genki on amazon this morning. I was a bit put off by the price which goes over 100$. I probably would've gotten it if it had been cheaper. Even the used copies on amazon.ca are about the same price. This is for all three books though (Correction key, workbook and textbook).
First of all, this may seem "weird" to you because you're not used to it, but it's not, really. There are many homonyms with different meanings expressed with different kanji, and also places where there is some overlap and the nuances are more subtle. I can't speak to your dictionary, but 貼 of 貼る is a 常用漢字(じょうようかんじ - you can look it up) and is thus certainly not "rare" or "infrequently used" in any sense. Considering that this game doesn't exactly use standard Japanese orthography (with many common kanji replaced by hiragana and katakana, spaces between words, etc.) you probably don't want to read too much into why certain things are written with certain scripts. It's a stylistic choice as much as anything.What's weird here is that there seems to be two different kanjis for the same meaning. In my dictionary, 「貼る」is grayed out. Might be because it's the less frequently used version of 「張る」? So out of curiosity, I google translated with both kanji and the meanings differ. This means that by using 「貼る」you get one meaning while using 「張る」 you get another one. In this case, however, no kanji are used whatsoever.
So here goes:
「かいだんを のぼった先にある
トビラの 近くに はられている 紙を
風使いの チカラを かりて はがすのです。」
"Use strong wind on the paper stuck on the wall near the door at the top of the stairs to rip it off."
"In a state of existence" is a very vague explanation that makes me wonder how well you truly understand this point. (Yは)Xにある is one of the most common ways in Japanese to say "Y (where Y is an inanimate object) is (i.e. exists) in X". Switching it around, XにあるY is a noun phrase meaning "the Y (that exists) in X".Regarding the explanation about にある, I read it 4 times to try to understand it. What I understand is that it's used to express that the noun phrase that precedes it is in a state of existence.
Would I be right to say that:
Is a noun phrase because even though there's a verb here, it's connected to 「かいだん」with the 「の」particle which is used to link 普通名詞(s) therefore implying that we're dealing with a noun phrase?
First of all (and this is a very important point, perhaps the most important point) you'll want to disabuse yourself of the notion that Japanese grammar is going to follow the rules you expect from English. "(As a native English speaker), you'd expect that..." is rarely, if ever, going to help you understand or form Japanese sentences, and will often just serve to confuse you.What I don't understand here is why のぼった is in the past. If you were to give instructions to someone, you wouldn't use the past, would you? I mean, it's not the passive form here so I guess it's something of an imperative like we would use when giving instructions.
me from somewhere else said:In Japanese, what many people refer to as the "past tense" is actually the perfect aspect. The focus is not when the action was performed relative to the present time, but whether or not the action was complete at the time under consideration.
This distinction often manifests itself in relative clauses. With 階段をのぼった先, by the time the hypothetical person reaches the destination at the top of the stairs, s/he has already climbed them (the action is complete). This is why the perfect (or "past tense") is being used here. 階段をのぼる先 would mean something like "the place/destination where one is about to climb the stairs". Given that 先 suggests "the other side" of something, perhaps you can see why this doesn't make as much sense.
This can be a bit confusing at first as it's different from English, but understanding the concept will go a long way towards helping you make sense of how tense is used in Japanese down the line.
That's sort of what I was getting to. I was under the impression that the reason why Genki brought up both functions informally was because they were just essentially noun connectors. That's why I was under the impression they were interchangeable.I don't really differentiate between them in my mind.
I read the link Toritoribe put in his post about 常用漢字。I think I understand what it means. It's the most updated reference when it comes to Kanji in education.you probably don't want to read too much into why certain things are written with certain scripts.
Ah ok, it's very clearly explained. It's a useful suffix then to mean "user"/"trainer" of something. There's a character like that, yes. It can blow gusts of wind.-使い suffix explanation
In my dictionary, they give a list of definitions for both 「張る」and 「貼」which it difficult to figure out which one has which connotation. I understand that 「貼」was just recently added to 常用漢字 but I'll need to research the different in nuance between the two.Nitpicky point perhaps, but "stuck on" the wall has a nuance that 貼る doesn't necessarily have. It more likely just means "posted"
This one is totally clear.本は図書館にある The book is in the library.
I didn't even know you could do a switch like this. I don't understand this one as much as I didn't see this explanation in my books before. For now I'll keep my eyes open for nouns which follow a 「にある」construction. It should allow me to understand what's going on.図書館にある本
Nevermind, I understand now. The difference is essentially that the first one is an independent sentence while the second is a relative clause which'd be part of a sentence. In other words:Again, note that the former is a complete sentence and the latter is a noun phrase (a noun being modified by a relative clause) like my earlier example.
Ok, yes, I understand that.Take a sentence like "Give the book to the man wearing a red hat". "the man wearing a red hat" is a noun phrase. "(you) give" is the main verb hear, while "wear" is only being used as part of a phrase qualifying the man.
Ok, it's more similar to the present perfect than it is related to the simple past then (or just the perfect in general). It does clear things up, i.e. The location where the stairs have been climbed.With 階段をのぼった先, by the time the hypothetical person reaches the destination at the top of the stairs, s/he has already climbed them (the action is complete).
The door at the top of the stairs orかいだんをのぼった先にあるトビラ.
(This is the same example that you gave with the library: 図書館にある本 a book (or "books") in the library).
A door at the destination where you climbed the stairs. (that's a bad translation, I mean, it's not worded right but I think it captures the essence of the sentence).
It's not a complete sentence. All these phrases modify the paper. Something like:かいだんをのぼった先にあるトビラの近くにはられている紙
(Wouldn't this be translated as more than one sentence in English?)
A paper has been affixed near the door at the destination where the stairs were climbed.
に indicates the location of existence, thus, "the noun phrase that precedes it(= に)" is a location. What is "in a state of existence" is the subject, not "the noun phrase that precedes it".Regarding the explanation about にある, I read it 4 times to try to understand it. What I understand is that it's used to express that the noun phrase that precedes it is in a state of existence.
You should do that for all nouns which follow verbs/adjectives, not limiting to にある, just like 先 that follows のぼった, 紙 that follows はられている or 占い that follows 当たらない, or ロトゼタシアの美しい景色 that follows 見た, 茜色の海 that follows 染まった, 大樹の葉 that follows 満ちた in your initial post in this thread.For now I'll keep my eyes open for nouns which follow a 「にある」construction. It should allow me to understand what's going on.
Exactly. のぼった is the past form, but not the past tense here. It's more likely the perfect tense, as you understand correctly.Ok, it's more similar to the present perfect than it is related to the simple past then (or just the perfect in general).
The subject is not "I". It's a suggestion/an instruction said to the listener(s).