Korean History Dilemma

tokapi said:

The 'sandwich analogy' of late has its roots in history as well as the current situation. The 'sandwich analogy' has its roots in Korea's victim mentality and feelings of being in crisis. Korea is surrounded by four strong nations: China, Russia, Japan, and the U.S. Korea saw many nations clash and observed many nations fall and become divided in the modern era. This left an inerasable scar on Koreans. Koreans became worried that they would be hurt in the battles of the big nations around them.
So,Korean Dilemma is real indeed.
* For complete article,read post#7 ...
Korean Fate

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This can be as well their great chance. They know one word from Germany and for sure have related own ones, coming from China (they translated enough of their old books, to have learned about this):

Was mich nicht umbringt, macht mich stark

What does not kill me, makes me strong. . .

Thanks again for the fine link and advice of that book!!
Any such sources find an open eye here indeed.

Chi65 said:

Was mich nicht umbringt, macht mich stark

What does not kill me, makes me strong. . .

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1 passage from the ( 韓國的智慧 ) book's preface ... 朝鮮半島是一部不斷挑戰地緣政治和文化命運的歷史

( 朝鮮半島は絶えずその他の縁の政治と文化の運命の歴史に挑戦します Korea peninsula never ceases to challenge its history of geographic politics destiny & fate of the culture.

http://www.ireading.cc/book/book.aspx?bid=00161241

Astroboy said:

I fully understand that Koreans want unification .... like German unification. So Koreans seek the same path as Germans....
http://edition.cnn.com/2001/WORLD/asiapcf/east/03/19/korea.nazi/
I don't know German history dilenmma, but I'm sure that there must be some similarity between 2 nations.

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Sorry, Astroboy, it keeps coming up (which means, good question after all, congrats!), and thus I just feel now like telling you, that this is in fact also an interesting theme, but cannot be sorted out on this thread, not even on this forum maybe.
Shame though, because it is in fact rewarding, to compar all three states, Korea, Japan and Germany for some reasons. . .and who has influenced whom with what etc. and differs how.
(Ahh, I hear one of my chinese friends complaining, he wants to be part in this. . . .aehm, next time, maybe)
For instance, the story of the split itself has not much in common in Germany and Korea, nor has Korea caused the WW2, but the state of the split itself and how to overcome it, yes, in a way.
While Japan has a lot in common with us in terms of war, but no split, etc.
And very important, how we are now doing after the fall of the wall, and how the Koreans might, in case, was a constant theme for the Koreans with us indeed, and very interesting for all sides, the japanese artist visitors included!

tokapi said:

1 passage from the ( ﾅ?ﾃ佛｡ﾂ?窶廬窶冫ﾅ壇 ) book's preface ... 窶卍ｩ窶朗窶敖ｼ窶懌?｡ﾂ青･ﾋ?ｪ窶｢窶昶?｢sﾂ敕絶?卍ｧﾂ戰窶冢緣ﾂ青ｭﾅｽﾂ｡ﾋ彗窶｢ﾂｶ窶ｰﾂｻ窶督ｽ窶ｰ^窶廬歷ﾅｽj
( 窶卍ｩ窶朗窶敖ｼ窶懌?｡窶堙債静｢窶堋ｦ窶堋ｸ窶堋ｻ窶堙娯?伉ｼ窶堙娯?ｰﾂ鞘?堙個青ｭﾅｽﾂ｡窶堙??｢ﾂｶ窶ｰﾂｻ窶堙娯?ｰ^窶督ｽ窶堙娯?氾ｰﾅｽj窶堙俄?卍ｧﾂ静ｭ窶堋ｵ窶堙懌?堋ｷ Korea peninsula never ceases to challenge its history of geographic politics destiny & fate of the culture.
http://www.ireading.cc/book/book.aspx?bid=00161241

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Interesting, and the truth, hehe!
I only wish, my reading of Hanzi would be much more advanced, it will take me ages to go through all this, in case I wish to read the book, but pinjin and the like also takes time, but is more OK. I wish, someone would translate this book into english. . .or hangul at least. Looks like a basic to me.
(Do they have a christmas wish list in the korean embassy here? I must suggest it , for their own good too)
Its OK, I can trace some main parts of your above writings so far. . .
and it does not surprise me.
Thanks for sharing, oh source of knowledge !

pipokun said:

The most interesting thing was the exhibition, something like "Hangul, our great language all over the world !!!", though it was only in Korean and I don't understand the language.

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S Korea even has a national holiday for Hangul ( an invention accomplished with much help of Mongol phonetic expertise of Ming Dynasty Han-Chinese linguist ( 明朝翰林學士 named 黃鑽 ),it heals the population's deep-seated inferior complex ....

the korean can not read even 40 years ago of newspaper because they gave up Kanji for their korean pride though It is Japan that spread Hangul.
they can not write even own name in Kanji.

korean history became a Privilege of Scholar who can read ancient Chinese like korean history documment.
and they can fake own history because most korean can not read it.
it is easy for some influential person or authorities to brainwash a new history.

On page three, post number 67, I basically asked, in so many words, that those who post on this thread remain fairly within the bounds of being on topic according to the basic outline of the OP.

Also Mikawa Ossan added that it should be in relation to how it connects with relations with Japan, as well.

In that the OP is a bit vague, I will again point out the three matters of topic here:


This thread will not be allowed to become a Korea bashing thread. Also, in that a warning has been ignored by some, this thread will be more strictly watched.

Chi65 said:

Sorry, Astroboy, it keeps coming up (which means, good question after all, congrats!), and thus I just feel now like telling you, that this is in fact also an interesting theme, but cannot be sorted out on this thread, not even on this forum maybe.
Shame though, because it is in fact rewarding, to compar all three states, Korea, Japan and Germany for some reasons. . .and who has influenced whom with what etc. and differs how.
(Ahh, I hear one of my chinese friends complaining, he wants to be part in this. . . .aehm, next time, maybe)
For instance, the story of the split itself has not much in common in Germany and Korea, nor has Korea caused the WW2, but the state of the split itself and how to overcome it, yes, in a way.
While Japan has a lot in common with us in terms of war, but no split, etc.
And very important, how we are now doing after the fall of the wall, and how the Koreans might, in case, was a constant theme for the Koreans with us indeed, and very interesting for all sides, the japanese artist visitors included!

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I think that Korean virtually caused separation of country by themselves.

Until the end of WWII, Japan, Korean and Taiwan jointly worked to establish East Asia Co-prosperity Sphere. But once Japan failed, Korean said .... "we are victor, and we demand compensation as a victor".

In English, it is called "traitor"

Later, although nobody asked them to kill each other, Korean started civil war, and they destroyed their country completely. Plus seperated, while it was well developed by Japan and one Korea,

Nobody asked, but they wanted.

No, the joint came through Japanese interests and dominance. . ., and when freed from it, they rightly wanted compensation for having been dominated, not for being victors(except maybe a few radicals thinking this way). Thus it has nothing to do with being traitors after all.

They then had according problems, to find back to themselves, after all the assimilation -actions...And being pretty hotheaded about this, they still sometimes have similar problems at times.
We saw some very interesting also actual korean documentations about this here during the Berlinale, and not for the first time. They are still working hard on this, by looking back too.

Most of them very much wish to unite with their north, but some rulers don't, more from the north, btw., who also have the key for education/manipulation/indoctrination of the young ones, much more strict than in the south.
The older ones are far less of a problem, they mostly just want to unite their families again, no matter how.

This again was pretty similar to our east-west problem, since the DDR for long very much tried to keep US or any western influences out, which created a new problem after the fall of the wall, a higher rate of Neo nazis on their side, for example, with values of exactly that Nazi time. It is known by now, that many old Nazis indeed survived in the former DDR, on higher ranks, also, as some from the west later went to the former DDR to pick up on this, partly successfull. Which makes it a continuous serious problem, because of ongoing violence from some, especially towards foreigners.
And since some from the west indeed tried to misuse their innocence and those with new curiosity about all things west, it also went against the western Germans(understandably in a way, but on the other hand, they also partly violently ignored according warnings from those of us, who saw this coming!), and still does after the fall. It may take some generations after all. . .until we come even alltogether.

Again, another hot similar aspect for Koreans to consider.
South Koreans had very open ears for this and wondered, how they could bypass similar movements. . .they thought, and maybe still think, it should come much more slowly than it did with us, so the general atmosphere during the last years. In case you are interested in first hand informations. That was not just the thoughts of artists, btw.

Japan was not in the talks in this matter, actually, and usually the very nice Japanese artists just listened with interest and then coped via art again, being as welcomed as any other nationalities in an international camp.
And the Koreans even were befriended with Chinese sometimes, who also worked in Seoul, for example, as I remember well. Only the radical fundamentalistic North Korea was kind of "uncomfortale", as a system, not most of the people though. . .

I hope, this helps a bit further.

Astroboy said:

I think that Korean virtually caused separation of country by themselves.

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This would have to be most true. The reason being simply that some of the people of that nation state that was, had wanted to embrace Communism, others not, so there was internal civil strife. It developed into a civil war of sorts, and when the USSR, out of spite for the vote of joining in to help the pro non-communists, boycotted the UN meeting and the vote went in favor of intervention, other countries--mainly the US--stepped in to liberate the peninsula from the Chinese communist influence.

Astroboy said:

Until the end of WWII, Japan, Korean and Taiwan jointly worked to establish East Asia Co-prosperity Sphere.

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This is most false. As Chi65 has pointed out too, it was Japan that had occupied the peninsual (and Taiwan) militarily and by governance; there's no way the people acting a puppets could have overridden any Japanese demands to act.

Mars Man said:

This would have to be most true. The reason being simply that some of the people of that nation state that was, had wanted to embrace Communism, others not, so there was internal civil strife. It developed into a civil war of sorts, and when the USSR, out of spite for the vote of joining in to help the pro non-communists, boycotted the UN meeting and the vote went in favor of intervention, other countries--mainly the US--stepped in to liberate the peninsula from the Chinese communist influence.

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There also was another party, under those, its not that simple, some roots go deeper. . .

Chi65 said:

There also was another party, under those, its not that simple, some roots go deeper. . .

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True. In fact, at that time pretty much the whole of most of the nation states in the world divided up into 'parties.' However in regards this particular theme, and forum, we are focusing on the relation between Japan and Korea now, and in this thread, how the delimma of Korea's understanding of its history might have any effect on that relationship.

The point is, that it would be inaccurate to see Korea as being a traitor from the perspective of present relations between the two nation states. That was the target of the objection I had raised, and we need not bring any outside parties into the matter.

However, I would still insist that we need not worry much at all about how Korea sees their history, and neither should they. We should all focus on moving into making the future history.

This is most false. As Chi65 has pointed out too, it was Japan that had occupied the peninsual (and Taiwan) militarily and by governance; there's no way the people acting a puppets could have overridden any Japanese demands to act.

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This is the typical Korean perspective, and if you view the history from Korean perspective with an eye of 21st century, you are right.

But when we look back at a hundred years ago, the world did not look like today. Global standard of early 20th century was "Either colonize or colonized".

Without establishment of Co-prosperity sphere under Empire Japan, Japan must have waited until ruins. So Nothing wrong at all. Japan did annex Korea in line with the international law, and Japanese colonization was much better that that of the West in Africa, India and South East Asia.

I understand that Koreans want to paint Japan as Baddie, but such a campaign is not valid anymore to Japanese. IF you live in Japan, you must feel something different from some 10-20 years ago. Interesting, isn't it?

In a way, Japanese must appreciate Korean anti-Japan sentiment fueled by the ultra-nationalistic governements for the past ten years.

Japan has become more normalized than before, and we can discuss history more openly. North Korean abduction issue also helped Japan increase militaristic strength. Almost all lawmakers support. All is fine now, I think.

May I add something, first to MM, I was not talking about parties of the rest of the world, I was talking about inner circles within Korea, about which I cannot elaborate here, because it was and is quite complicated, and not so widely known (filmers do and did, in fact).

I do not even know, if I am doing them a favour to talk about it here, because also not so far ago, a highly experienced academic of that kind, who was into uniting, by teaching both ways of looking at things, was severely mistaken and put under arrest in south Korea, for being a pro northern one, which was completely wrong! We got him out again, from here!!
All he wanted, was to mediate, in case that function is known. So do and did many other Koreans for long. Its one of their survival threngths.

Also the very rooted shamans play a very strong role in this, about which I also do not wish to elaborate, for similar reasons.
Not to mention the German role in this once more, we were and are their Asylum, and pathway to the world, if they are once more in trouble.
And they know this very well. So should others know.

And there is much more even, I only just touched the surface.

One word, that explains the real consciousnes of many Koreans very well, is:

We do not want all the world to play football in our gardens, without cleaning up afterwards.

While playfull guests, who don't leave a mess, are very welcome. . .

Maybe that helps.

http://japanese.yonhapnews.co.kr/headline/2008/05/23/0200000000AJP20080523001000882.HTML
ﾂ広ﾅ?J窶忱窶伉ｾ窶ｰﾂ､窶敕ｨ窶堙娯?｢ﾂ｡ﾂ青ｻ窶敕ｨﾂ焦凪?凪?ｹﾅｽﾂｮ窶堙可出ﾂ静按、ﾂ坂?壺?氾ｭ窶｢ﾂｶﾂ康窶堋ｳ窶堙ｱ
...
ﾅｽvﾂ春ﾅ?ﾃｺ窶堙家但ﾆ辰ﾆ断ﾆ停?愴弾ﾆ達ﾆ弾ﾆ達ﾂー窶堙娯?禿｢窶佚ｨ窶堙坂?堙遺?堋ｩ窶堙≫?堋ｽ窶堋ｩ窶堙??堙固ｽﾂｿ窶禿｢窶堙俄?堙債、ﾂ「窶堋?窶堙≫?堋ｽﾂ」窶堙??堙娯?愬｡窶堋ｦ窶堋ｪ窶｢ﾃ披?堙≫?堙??堋ｫ窶堋ｽﾂ。窶佚ｦﾋ?ｪ窶堙可坂?壺?ｹﾃ･窶氾ｭﾂ人窶堙固ｽq窶伉ｷ窶堙??堋?窶堙ｩ窶堋ｽ窶堙溪?堙俄?愿ｺ窶怒窶堙俄?｢ﾃｩ窶堙ｧ窶堋ｵ窶堙遺?堋ｪ窶堙ｧ窶堙?窶愿ｺ窶怒ﾂ人窶堙??堙遺?堋｢窶堋ｱ窶堙?、窶佚ｦ窶愿ｱ窶堙可神ﾅｽﾃ絶?堙ｰﾅｽﾃｳ窶堋ｯﾅ恥窶堋ｪ窶堙遺?堋ｭ窶堙??堙坂?堙遺?堙ｧ窶堋ｸﾂ職窶ｹﾃ??露窶佚ｰ窶堙固ｽﾂｩ窶燃窶堋ｪ窶堙遺?堋｢窶堙??堋｢窶堋､窶彑窶堙ｰ窶ｹ窶懌?堋ｰ窶堙遺?堋ｪ窶堙ｧﾂ、ﾋ?ｪﾅｽﾅｾ窶堙最?窶ｹ窶慊｡ﾂ（窶堋ｩ窶堙≫?堙??堋､ﾂ）窶堋ｪ窶堋?窶堙≫?堋ｽ窶堙?振窶堙ｨ窶｢ﾃ披?堙ｩﾂ。

Mr. Koma is a shinto priest and the 60th offspring from the first settler.
According to him, he suffered from a kind of identity crisis when young:
1. He felt alienated from Japan because he was an offspring of the ancient country, Goguryeo, even though he has lived in Japan.
2. He had no choice but to inherit the shrine and become a priest.

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The sense of alienation related to nationality is usually quite a modern concept.
And I am just wondering what he thinks of the fact that the ancient country was overthrown by the subsequent Korean dynasty. I think he should loudly ask for apology and reparation of his 60 generation grudge from Korean people.

*Chuckles at the various anti-Korean posts*


I guess some people have a complex here.

Astroboy said:

Japanese colonization was much better that that of the West in Africa, India and South East Asia.

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I'm not one to say that the Japanese are some sort of devils, but your comment is incorrect. Please tell me how cultural genocide is a much better sort of colonization?


Plus, the goals of the colonization were different. While Africa, India and South East Asia was mostly exploitation of resources, colonization Korea was more of converting the nation into an extention of Japan itself.

Please tell me how cultural genocide is a much better sort of colonization?

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what is cultural genocide?

you mean this?
let's wear colored clothes, shall we?
白衣退散 色服奨励



why does not korean wear white traditional clothes today?
today's korean traditional clothes are so colorful

colonization Korea was more of converting the nation into an extention of Japan itself.

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it is called M&A

caster51 said:

what is cultural genocide?

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The use of 內窶朗ﾋ?ｪﾃｩ窶 to destroy Korean identity

caster51 said:

it is called M&A

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And an unequal M&A cannot be considered "much better" when the lower partner are treated like slaves.




It seems there's quite a bit of sterotyping here, but then, I guess I should have expected it.

The use of 內鮮一體 to destroy Korean identity

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So why did korean ask for annexation first?
what korean Identity did Japan destroy ?

And an unequal M&A cannot be considered "much better" when the lower partner are treated like slaves

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there were 11 korean Diet members...
Japan set korean slaves free from Yangbang.

The population of Korea has doubled though nazi did half..

why did japan make so many school for korean?
it is not needed for slaves to make many schools..

caster51 said:

So why did korean ask for annexation first?

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You mean the annexation that was advocated by people who were under the payroll of the Japanese government, and the annexation that was never supported by the King/Emperor of 窶佚･ﾅ?ﾃ倪?凖ｩﾅ｡ﾂ?, and didn't have the Imperial Seal on it?

caster51 said:

what korean Identity did Japan destroy ?

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*Rolls eyes*

I believe this is a question that does not even have to be answered

caster51 said:

there were 11 korean Diet members...

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Most of them had titles (although I would need to look into it)

caster51 said:

Japan set korean slaves free from Yangbang.

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They became slaves after annexation. It's like giving medicine after giving sickness.

caster51 said:

The population of Korea has doubled though nazi did half..

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Incorrect. Korean population grew by 20%, and in the case of Germany, they had a big war on their home ground, which Japan was forcing a war on the mainland. Of course Greater Japan's population grew.

caster51 said:

why did japan make so many school for korean?
it is not needed for slaves to make many schools..

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If the schools gave just enough education for the Koreans to be technical workers instead of being able to form their own industry, how is it different from raising slaves?

Not all "schools" are worthy of being called schools.

You mean the annexation that was advocated by people who were under the payroll of the Japanese government, and the annexation that was never supported by the King/Emperor of 大韓帝國, and didn't have the Imperial Seal on it?

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complete power of attorney to Lee Wan-Yong

If the schools gave just enough education for the Koreans to be technical workers instead of being able to form their own industry, how is it different from raising slaves?

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that is why miracle of han river happend because of education.

how many korean did graduate from japanese militaly academy though taiwanese were not alowed?

an elementary school at that time

Korea and Taiwan were Japan empire until 1945
Taiwan was ceded from Qing dynasty.
as for Taiwan, there is no responsibility of participating in Japan Empire.
Korea participated in the Japan empire in intention of the korean government and korean king by treaty.
that was why Taiwanese was not able to become the officer of a Japanese army.
The Korean also had the suffrage and had 11 Diet members in Japan empire.
they can enter the japanese militaly academy like formar korean president..
ﾂ洪ﾅｽ窶樞?ｰv(hon sakui) is very famous..

Korea is an assailant who joined the war of not the victim but Japan.

However, South Korea is avoided the responsibility and continues , saying a lie that Korea was a colony".
Austriaﾂ apologized because itﾂ admitted that it was an assailant though
Austria was annexed to Germany.

Austria annexation period was only six years from 1938, and annexation by a military invasion of Germany.
A formal procedure like the South Korea-Japan annexation was not stepped on ...

Korea never apologize.
South Korea is an unfair country where acts the victim by the history misinterpretation.

dont you think?

Kang Seung Jae, please overcome my complex by answering my simple questions.

When and where did you learn about the territorial dispute between Korea and Japan? (Please exclude my_family_told_me cases here)
Is it true or just my Korean friends' joke that many Korean kindergarten kids are told about the vicious ambition of Japan as you might call it?

Thank you very much in advance.