Koizumi visited that shrine again

Daniel · 21 Jan 2006

gs001 said:
Not only the war criminals but also ordinary Japanese
soldiers were guilty for their war abuse.
So I think the shrine ought to be burned down completelyView attachment 4232

But does not all war result in violence against innocents? Do you think that monuments for american war "heroes" should be burned down as well? I do not have any sympathy for the Yasukuni or other monuments for soldiers, but I think it is kind of ridiculous that the focus is on this shrine only. What about the bombing of Dresden, what about Hiroshima, what about every single war ever fought? The facts are that the soldiers of every warring nation will commit crimes against the civilian population. Sure, some will be worse than others, and the japanese during WWII were truly bad. But I think that focusing on their crimes and the Yasukuni as unacceptable while accepting monuments for other war criminals from the allied countries, lends credibility to the horrendous killings commited by the US and UK.

MajideSaiaku · 22 Jan 2006

gs001 said:
Not only the war criminals but also ordinary Japanese
soldiers were guilty for their war abuse.
So I think the shrine ought to be burned down completelyView attachment 4232

Im just tired of these ignorant burn it down posts, its clear some folk arent interested in discussion and are more interested in bringing their hatred onto a forum to troll. I'm all for conflicting points of view if they can be better presented to appear reasonable and logical, but these "all japanese are war criminals, burn down their shrines and desecrate the graves of the war dead because our fanatical demands must be followed" is annoying.

Maybe i should come and burn down your forbidden city, dig up the graves and desecrate the remains of the dead who helped prop up and create the communist regime.....your blinding arrogance, ignorance, and trolling is annoying, lucky for you im not a mod, the mods here seem to be able to tolerate a level of poor behaviour, to give people a chance, but i would just ban posts like yours outright.

Im not saying china doesnt deserve an apology, and im not saying honouring war criminals is right, but i need not go into detail yet again as to why your post, and other like it are just wrong.

China has nothing to be proud of about its history, your country was just as bad as japans war-time actions, and yet, you dont feel all chinese are guilty...odd that "oh but i wasnt alive durring the communist revolution, so it doesnt effect me, im innocent"......there you go....think about it.

When some chinese can stop pretending their country is so innocent, and stop making ignorant statements or labelling all japanese as guilty, and therefor undeserving of their own country's way of dealing with its dead, and calling for the demolition of their cultural and religious centers, then maybe ill have more sympathy for your argument.

That goes for some westerners here aswell whos indepth wisdom about the subject is about one news article from a news website.
I think its even more unforgivable that a westerner can call for the destruction of another countries war memorial, gravesite, or religious structure, when your suppoused to have been brought up in a country where your meant to have some level of maturity and understanding.

edit: it also occurs to me, wouldnt this be one of the thousands of sites banned by the chinese government for chinese to visit?, if thats the case those of you with chinese flags, are you actually in/from china?, i dont know for sure so i could be mistaken.

gaijinalways · 28 Jan 2006

Nurizeko You do relise that the war criminals names at that shrine are dwarfed by the number of innocent and crimeless soldiers names also listed there.

Do you also realize that some of the 'innocent' people also don't want their names on the shrine? Taiwanese and Koreans who were forced to fight in the war for the Japanese have their names on the Shrine. One moderator on another forum tried to claim that the Koreans volunteered for the war, but having your country razed and your family threatened with torture if you refuse to fight for the imperial army is hardly voluntary, regardless of the contract signed. The familes have appealed and tried to legally get the names removed, but since the shrine is a private one, the government doesn't want to get involved.

The relation with Germany has more to do with a different route that Germany took with issuing apologies to European countries and acknowledging to each country. Japan has at most only issued a general apology, while some of their politicians claim the war never happened or that Japan was trying to 'liberate' Asia. I don't think any leading politicians in Germany are pushing this kind of arguement.

godppgo · 1 Feb 2006

gs001 said:
Not only the war criminals but also ordinary Japanese
soldiers were guilty for their war abuse.
So I think the shrine ought to be burned down completelyView attachment 4232

You clearly do not understand Japanese's attitude towards the dead.
Japanese regarded the dead as kami (ﾂ神) and they are to be worshiped.
When most Japanese go to Yasukuni Jinja, they go to worship the deads' soul, not glorifying war crimes.

Of all, 2,466,532 souls are worshiped at Yasukuni Jinja from Meiji Restoration (窶督ｾﾅｽﾂ｡ﾋ?崢新) to the war in pacific (窶佚･窶愬塚?ｸﾂ静ｭ窶侏?. Myself have relatives who sacrificed their lives during the pacific war. Am I not allowed to pay my respect to them as human beings?

I cannot understand why Chinese (especially young Chinese people) keep on bringing up how their grandfathers got their *** kicked by the Japanese some 60 years back. Many major western powers invaded and looted China during the late 1800s and some of China's priced national treasures are now in displayed at various European museums. Somehow the Chinese "selectively" remembered the Japanese's part of war crime while all others are forgivened?

Whining about Yasukuni Jinja only reminds people how backward your people were and only makes you look more pathetic as a nation. China has the potential to be a great nation one day. At least act like one.

bossel · 2 Feb 2006

godppgo said:
Many major western powers invaded and looted China during the late 1800s and some of China's priced national treasures are now in displayed at various European museums. Somehow the Chinese "selectively" remembered the Japanese's part of war crime while all others are forgivened?

If you frequented some Chinese fora you'd find quite a number of threads esp. about the Opium Wars, but also about Western colonialism. Chinese nationalists do not only pick on Japan.

celtician · 16 Feb 2006

The Japanese don't have a difference between 'soldier' and "citizen' because I think Japan has always been a militaristic isolated country so maybe "Poodlehed Koizumi" doesn't know the difference!!

gs001 · 1 Mar 2006

godppgo said:
Of all, 2,466,532 souls are worshiped at Yasukuni Jinja from Meiji Restoration (ﾃ｣sﾎｾSﾐﾂ) to the war in pacific (ｴﾂ･ﾂ酢｣ｾﾋ?ﾕ・. Myself have relatives who sacrificed their lives during the pacific war. Am I not allowed to pay my respect to them as human beings?

Someone has been to the shrine and quoted the number of Japanese soldier fall in battle:
Manchuria incident ---17,175
China incident--- 191,220
Pacific war---2,133,778
is that true?
and I want to know the duration of "China incident"
(1931-1945)? or (1931-1941)?
though at that time, China's army was very very very weak,
and led by JiangJieShi such a idiot,
but I still can't believe you only lost 191,220 soldier during
14 years?
and I heard Japan lost 50,000 during the conflict between Japan and Soviet Union at Manchuria border in 1938, where they be categorized?
think you.

shiroma · 8 Mar 2006

Note that the ones who criticize the issue have no respect to soldiers who had to die in action.

Has Hu Jintao ever visited any premise to pay attentions to Eighth Route Army's sacrifice at the civil war that brought the success to the communist revolution.

No wonder they can feel zero understandings for ones from foreign nations who fell in battles, they laugh at Arlington too.

Shrapnel · 4 Apr 2006

May I add

godppgo said:
You clearly do not understand Japanese's attitude towards the dead.
Japanese regarded the dead as kami (ﾂ神) and they are to be worshiped.
When most Japanese go to Yasukuni Jinja, they go to worship the deads' soul, not glorifying war crimes.
Of all, 2,466,532 souls are worshiped at Yasukuni Jinja from Meiji Restoration (窶督ｾﾅｽﾂ｡ﾋ?崢新) to the war in pacific (窶佚･窶愬塚?ｸﾂ静ｭ窶侏?. Myself have relatives who sacrificed their lives during the pacific war. Am I not allowed to pay my respect to them as human beings?
I cannot understand why Chinese (especially young Chinese people) keep on bringing up how their grandfathers got their *** kicked by the Japanese some 60 years back. Many major western powers invaded and looted China during the late 1800s and some of China's priced national treasures are now in displayed at various European museums. Somehow the Chinese "selectively" remembered the Japanese's part of war crime while all others are forgivened?
Whining about Yasukuni Jinja only reminds people how backward your people were and only makes you look more pathetic as a nation. China has the potential to be a great nation one day. At least act like one.

I agree. China should also stop selling Uranium to Axis of Evil nations as well, excluding John Howards Australia( gotta keep a double standard, right?). They've even sold the stuff to AQ Khan but that's besides the point.

After WW2, China was left with the biggest bowl of sour grapes then any other asian country in the entire region, why ? Not only did Japan survive one atomic bombing , but two atomic bombings, and she arose from those ashes and surged ahead of every other nation, economically and politically and became the second largest economy in the world. And while that may be short lived Japan is still a trend setter in many area's e.g. automotive industry, entertainment, and home appliance technology, and so on.

The Chinese would of rather liked to have seen Japan reduced down to a third world country and then the Chinese would have nothing to whine about even if Koizumi were to visit the shrine. On the contrary, Japan was blessed for being cursed.

What has to be understood also is that Japan has already made formal apologies and has doled out millions of yen in ODA money. Thanks to Koizumi this is over. The youth of today want to move on.

Henry G · 21 Apr 2006

Just like Germany, Japan still had its high standard workforce after the Second World Two. What's more, in order to contain Communism, US offered huge amount of support to Japan. Those are reasons why Japan developed so fast. I wonder if the nationalism in China not the Communism won the civil war, everything will be different. China could receive the support not Japan. And today's Japan would be totally different.
The problem in China today is fear actually. The terrible fear for another Japan invasion. So anything that can be connected to militarism would cause tremendous anti-Japan sentiment.

dangdaga · 21 Apr 2006

if they can remove those convitcted war criminals, china and south corea won't have any problems with these visits.
After all, hitler and his henchmens are war criminals, too..what will happen if German have a temple honouring them.

shiroma · 15 Aug 2006

NHK news

Koizumi Visits Yasukuni

Prime Minister Junichiro Koizumi has visited Yasukuni Shrine in Tokyo on the August 15 anniversary of the end of World War II.

He is the first Japanese prime minister to visit the shrine on this date since Prime Minister Yasuhiro Nakasone in 1985.

Mr Koizumi arrived at the shrine at around 7:40 a.m. Wearing formal dress, he bowed before the altar at the main building, without following formal Shinto religious style. He signed the register as "Prime Minister Junichiro Koizumi" and bought a flower as an offering.

He left the shrine in his security convoy, about 15 minutes later, without speaking to the media.

In each of his five previous annual visits to the shrine, Mr Koizumi said he visits to pay respects to those who died in wars and to pray that Japan will never go to war again.

China and South Korea have condemned his annual visits to Yasukuni Shrine, which honors not only those who died for Japan in past wars, but also enshrines top Japanese war criminals, most of whom were executed after World War II.

This is Mr Koizumi's sixth annual visit to the shrine, but the first on August 15. When first seeking the Liberal Democratic Party leadership, he promised to visit on this date. Last Wednesday, Mr Koizumi said he would honor that promise.

On Thursday, he said it made no difference when he would visit the shrine because the media would criticize any visit.

Japan Observes the 61st Anniversary of the End of WW2

A government-sponsored memorial ceremony was held in Tokyo on Tuesday, the 61st anniversary of the end of World War Two, to remember more than three million Japanese who died in the war.

The annual ceremony began shortly before noon at Tokyo's Budo-kan Hall, attended by about 6,000 people.

Prime Minister Junichiro Koizumi said in his address that Japan had inflicted great harm and pain on other countries, its Asian neighbors in particular, in the war.

He pledged that Japan will work to bring eternal peace to the world as a member of the international community, learning lessons from the war and keeping its promise never to wage war again.

The participants observed a minute of silence at noon.

The Emperor said in his speech that he pays sincere respects to those who died in the war and prays for global peace and the further development of Japan.

Sixty-one years after the end of the war, more than 40 percent of the relatives of the war dead who attended the ceremony were more than 70 years old.

The oldest of the participants was Ms Yoshie Tabata, who is 101 years old. The only parent present at the memorial, Ms Tabata lost her son.

Representatives of the relatives also delivered speeches, followed by participants offering chrysanthemums at the altar to console the souls of the war dead.

Jukina · 16 Aug 2006

Warcrimes are warcrimes! Someone could said that war itself is a crime. There is no war, which dont offer sufferings. War is gruel. How much russians, chineses, americans, koreans, british, finnish etc. have done warcrimes? A lot! And still there are around the world memorials for unknown soldier, white crosses in France, etc.
Finland was on Axis side during the war and fought against Russians. We had our own war criminals convicted. Still we have special graveyards almost in every city and bigger villages. We have also special day when we remember those who gave their lives for the people and country. No political problems in EU.
Koizumi and official Japan have apologizied allready warcrimes.
Why japaneses dont have right to remember those who passed away during the war? They have also payed! Oh yes! Please, visit in Peace Memorial Museum in Hiroshima. And read personal stories of A-bomb victims. Most of them just civilians, women and children.

El P8s · 16 Aug 2006

Surely Japan comitted warcrimes on a bigger scale than their opponents but stereotyping japanese soldiers in ww2 as brutal killers is stupid and racist.
I it is absolutly ok for japanese gouverment officials to visit this shrine ,if they make it clear ,that they are by no means approving of the crimes comitted.

Btw Jukina I don't think Finnland was on the side of the Axis they only went to war against russia because Stalin wanted to force to hand over certain strips of their territory.

El P8s · 16 Aug 2006

dangdaga said:
if they can remove those convitcted war criminals, china and south corea won't have any problems with these visits.
After all, hitler and his henchmens are war criminals, too..what will happen if German have a temple honouring them.

Well you have someono who killed more people than Germany and Japan put together in a glas coffin so should you really dishing out the guilt here.

Although I do agree with you on removing the convicted war criminals.

kirby36 · 17 Aug 2006

moffeltoff said:
Surely Japan comitted warcrimes on a bigger scale than their opponents but stereotyping japanese soldiers in ww2 as brutal killers is stupid and racist.

Isn't stupid and racist for Hollywood and Holocaust survivor Jews re-tell and stereotype German Nazi's as brutal killers ?

Have you seen Schindler's List ?

Have you seen post-WW 2 news reels with ordinary Germans' face disgusted at dead babies jarred alive in glass containers for medical experiments during the Third Reich.

Germany is the most racist European nation,with many reported racially motivated acts against foreigners there.

It's to my intrigue,how could someone in Germany defends Japanese' sins,Germans too have a bag full of them from WW 2.

Han Chan · 17 Aug 2006

kirby36 said:
Isn't stupid and racist for Hollywood and Holocaust survivor Jews re-tell and stereotype German Nazi's as brutal killers ?
Have you seen Schindler's List ?
Have you seen post-WW 2 news reels with ordinary Germans' face disgusted at live babies jarred in glass containers for medical experiments during the Third Reich.
Germany is the most racist European nation,with many reported racially motivated acts against foreigners there.
It's to my intrigue,how could someone in Germany defends Japanese' sins,Germans too have a bag full of them from WW 2.

I do not think it is fair to say that Germany is the most racist country in Europe. The average german is not racist, but the number of right-extreme racists there is worrying. The racist are most numerous in the former DDR - East Germany. One of the important factors you need to take into consideration is that there have been very significant social problems and unemployment in East Germany.

Compared to USA I do not think that there are any significantly racist coutries in Europe.

You do find racism in Japan, but the good thing is that it is becomming less and less and the youg generation is more openminded than the old.

kirby36 · 17 Aug 2006

Jukina said:
Finland was on Axis side during the war and fought against Russians.We had our own war criminals convicted.Still we have special graveyards almost in every city and bigger villages. We have also special day when we remember those who gave their lives for the people and country.No political problems in EU.

Did Finland commit comparable scale of atrocities as German Nazis and Japan Imperial Army ?

There would be a big political tremble in EU if Germany ever builds a National Shrine in honor of Third Reich and Adolf Hitler plus his Nazi henchmen with Germany's Chancellor makes annual visit in face of diplomatic protests from European nations where Nazis trampled in WW 2.

El P8s · 17 Aug 2006

kirby36 said:
Isn't stupid and racist for Hollywood and Holocaust survivor Jews re-tell and stereotype German Nazi's as brutal killers ?
Have you seen Schindler's List ?
Have you seen post-WW 2 news reels with ordinary Germans' face disgusted at dead babies jarred alive in glass containers for medical experiments during the Third Reich.
Germany is the most racist European nation,with many reported racially motivated acts against foreigners there.
It's to my intrigue,how could someone in Germany defends Japanese' sins,Germans too have a bag full of them from WW 2.

Stereotyping even from Holocaust surviors is racist and stupid =)
I am not sure if you aren't educated well enough or if you are just plain racist that you continou to stereotype whole nations it should be everyones right no matter where he is from to express his opinion it's a human right freedom of speech heard of it?
Without a doubt what happened in WW2 was terrible but making people responsibul for something ,which happened before they were even born bares of all logik.
I very much doubt you have ever been to Germany and saying germany is the most racist country in europe is an interesting theses ,which I think you won't be able to prove =)
And if you would have read my post carefully you would have noticed ,that I was applying to the normal soldiers in WW2 and not the convicted criminals.

El P8s · 17 Aug 2006

Han Chan said:
Compared to USA I do not think that there are any significantly racist coutries in Europe.

You can't racist if you're American remember the current american gouverment rids the world of all evil using bombs and loads of G.I. Joes. =)

ricecake · 17 Aug 2006

moffeltoff said:
Stereotyping even from Holocaust surviors is racist and stupid
I am not sure if you aren't educated well enough or if you are just plain racist

Does it mean you have no doubts Jews are racists and Hollywood is Jew-owned racist American enterprise,the once proudly proclaimed Aryan-racist dead German Nazis now victimized by Jew racism ?

Do you know Holocaust denial is a crime in Austria,notorious Holocaust denier David Irving pleaded guilty this year ?

This is unwarranted comment directed at a fellow poster for someone like you have been accused other nationalities as racists,yourself might have been one !

El P8s · 17 Aug 2006

ricecake said:
Does it mean you have no doubts Jews are racists and Hollywood is Jew-owned racist American enterprise,the once proudly proclaimed Aryan-racist dead German Nazis now victimized by Jew racism ?
Do you know Holocaust denial is a crime in Austria,notorious Holocaust denier David Irving pleaded guilty this year ?
This is unwarranted insulting racist comment directed at a fellow poster for someone like you have been accused other nationalities as racists,yourself might have been one !

No I accused him of beeing racist for stereotyping Germans as racist and again if you would have read my post I was applying to individual persons not to whole nations.
And no I never said anything like that about Hollywood that's your opinion the only thing I said was ,that surviving the holocaust or beeing a victim of racism in generall does not stop you from beeing racist yourself.
I never denied the holocaust the only thing I said about it was ,that I couldn't have influenced it as kirby suggested because I was born 44years later.
Btw I'm not arian at all I am a dirty german/english mongrel with brown hair and hasel eyes sorry to disappoint you

Hiroyuki Nagashima · 17 Aug 2006

ricecake said:
Does it mean you have no doubts Jews are racists and Hollywood is Jew-owned racist American enterprise,the once proudly proclaimed Aryan-racist dead German Nazis now victimized by Jew racism ?
Do you know Holocaust denial is a crime in Austria,notorious Holocaust denier David Irving pleaded guilty this year ?
This is unwarranted insulting racist comment directed at a fellow poster for someone like you have been accused other nationalities as racists,yourself might have been one !

..... :?
There were a large number of people who resisted the Nazis in a German.
Sophie Scholl – Die letzten Tage (Film) | Inhalt, Besetzung & Kritik
The fearsome Nazi judicial machine, unrestrained by the niceties of due process, took only one business day to vilify, convict and behead three idealistic students who led a resistance movement called the White Rose.
Jlrweb.com is for sale | HugeDomains

11,900 human beings were sentenced to death penalty between ten years from 1934 to 1944, and about 1,100 houses seem to have been women.

Davey · 17 Aug 2006

Please stop going off topic about german nazi's and stay on the Koizumi and the shrine!!!

caster51 · 17 Aug 2006

I think German made a stupid law.☝
The Jew's massacre against cannan ppl is being written in the Old Testament.
i dont think the Jew can criticize the German
german imputed the responsibility to the Nazi.
that is why German need a law of Holocaust denial...
anyway all victor can make a new law to judge loser by ex post facto.
we never forget...
all loser will be the War criminal

that is, kill them all in the WAR for victory.

Koizumi visited that shrine again

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