Japanese parenting

[nahadef]

I'm a Westerner married to a Japanese. We're mostly in agreement when parenting, but things come up.

For example, my daughter is pretty apathetic to commands. She might be disabled, or maybe she's just not that kind of kid. Raising a kid bilingually makes judgement calls a lot harder in regards to their development. Anyway, my attitude is that if she doesn't listen, she should be prohibited from things she likes, like cartoons or anime. My partner instead threatens. She says she'll put her outside if she doesn't eat dinner. This upsets me, since it doesn't seem like a parent's behaviour.

I've told her that I think it's fine to restrict luxuries for misbehaviour, but not to inflict suffering. I feel it creates and adversarial relationship between parents and children. Her reply? That's totally fine in Japan.

Generally, I have no 'Japanese' questions after being here ten years (MIKE CASH), but I have little experience in child-rearing here. In N.America, the punishment model may have been normal decades ago, but it's not so much today. How about today in Japan? Can you share your experiences?

 

[bloodsinger]

I don't know about Japan, but in my own experience (I'm also an Asian , Singaporean. Maybe there's similarities), I think it's quite common (As in your wife's punishment method). But with changing times comes new methods, so these kind of punishment are becoming less common compared to in the past where threats to disown or asking you to stand at the doorway for a long period of time or being kicked out of the house for awhile and corporal punishment such as caning is quite common.

But I think now with more organisations that are against child abuse be it verbal or corporal, more awareness has been raised and more parents would be wary about giving these kind of punishments. So, now punishments more like grounding and banning certain activities and curfew.

I feel that western countries are more lenient with their children though while Asians are stricter.

-Opinion from a person who lives in an Asian home and Asian country

 

[Mark of Zorro]

Threatening to take away anime is still threatening. Taking away anime is still inflicting suffering. The difference is that being put outside is pretty extreme depending on age. So I have to ask, how old is your daughter?

My wife is Japanese and while I don't agree with all her Japanese ideas of parenting, even what I disagree with is pretty mild. But she has never even considered leaving him alone outside. Of course, he is only two. I don't know what age Japanese start that.

My biggest worry is just the insularity and unfriendliness of the surrounding community. Japanese are so fake and so distant. When I was a kid, I was in neighbor's houses all the time learning all sorts of things. Here I hardly ever see kids outside unless they are going to or from school. I certainly never see a kid knocking on a neighbor's door much less going in. Its bizarre and I think it stunts their growth.

 

[Mike Cash]

Would it be correct to assume a tone of personal animosity and a preference that I not participate in the discussion?

 

[nahadef]

Would it be correct to assume a tone of personal animosity and a preference that I not participate in the discussion?

No, just making a note that I have mentioned my time here, and how you would be making a mental note of that fact in that it is irrelevant to the discussion

 

[tokkyo]

I'm not Japanese or married to Japanese, but one of my colleagues did indeed talk about being forced to stay outside as punishment as a child. She compared it to how Westerners are often sent to their room as punishment, whereas Japanese are sent outside. She wondered why being sent to your room was considered punishment at all..

So at the very least, it's not just your wife..

 

[ejay1]

I don't know about Japan, but in my own experience (I'm also an Asian , Singaporean. Maybe there's similarities), I think it's quite common (As in your wife's punishment method). But with changing times comes new methods, so these kind of punishment are becoming less common compared to in the past where threats to disown or asking you to stand at the doorway for a long period of time or being kicked out of the house for awhile and corporal punishment such as caning is quite common.

But I think now with more organisations that are against child abuse be it verbal or corporal, more awareness has been raised and more parents would be wary about giving these kind of punishments. So, now punishments more like grounding and banning certain activities and curfew.

I feel that western countries are more lenient with their children though while Asians are stricter.

-Opinion from a person who lives in an Asian home and Asian country

I am also asian....but this isnt a sign of strict parents....it looks to be lazy parenting which is quite common in Japan nowadays
I get the feeling that japanese moms are more like older friends of their children and less of a parent
which has more to do with the "what about me and my needs come first" attitude of MODERN japanese culture

 

[Petaris]

I have a similar situation with my wife, however slightly reversed. My wife seems set on a very hands off approach to parenting and will just say "you shouldn't do that" but won't take any action to prevent whatever our son is doing (he is two and a half, "you shouldn't do that" doesn't mean a whole lot to him just yet), where I will go take whatever it is away, or take him away from it, or otherwise resolve the issue.

Although we aren't at this point yet we also disagree on spanking (corporal punishment seems like too strong of a term for my version of this). I think there are *some* things that warrant a little swat on the butt for continued misbehavior and other more serious misbehavior. I have seen a lot of "non-parenting" in my life and the child very often tends to be out of control. They seem to have no respect for adults, or other kids, and seem to think they have the right to do what they like without consequences. While I would not lock our son out of the house at any age, there does have to be consequences for bad behavior. What those consequences are should be determined based on the behavior (spanking would be at the very serious end of this spectrum, as usually there is a better option).

As an example, my wife has older siblings both with kids. Her sister takes a vary light handed approach to parenting and her kids (though getting better now that they are older) are always wild and rarely seem to listen when they are told not to do something. Her brother, actually his wife, takes a more serious approach that I know has resulted in spankings when deemed necessary. His kids are always well behaved, listen when they are told not to do something (though it is rarely necessary to tell them), and very polite. These are of course only two examples, but I have seen many more that seem to re-enforce the idea that children need a fair amount of guidance and appropriate discipline to help shape them into good people.

Over all my impression has been that many younger Japanese parents (25 - 40) are very light on the parenting aspect in more ways then just discipline, but it really just depends on the person and I suspect is influenced by how that person was raised.

**Everything I have written above is my opinion, YMMV!**

 

[Mark of Zorro]

**Everything I have written above is my opinion, YMMV!**

That you are spanking your two and half year old son is not an opinion. That sir, is a fact.
The only time I ever hit my son was when he was about one and half, and it was a reflex because of a sharp pain caused by his teeth biting into my arm. I did not wail on him, but in reflex I hit him on the back harder than I would have liked. No harm done, but I felt like crap.
As far as I am concerned, the only reason to spank my son would be to keep him from touching something or doing something that would be a serious danger to him. But about the only way for there to exist such a danger is that I was not paying attention. I worry about my son running from the yard into the street, so I put up a fence. I worried about him breaking the glass in the shoji doors, so I covered them with wood. Etc... He does not want to sit down at the dinner table? Okay, he is two. Eventually he will want to sit down like the rest of us. And yes, that is what he now does and why.
Now I will admit that it takes a lot of thought and work to get by without spanking at such an age. I know I would be lost without my wife pretty much constantly on the ball and those tireless day care workers, plus occasional visits from Grandma. They all work hard to train my son and endure all his whinings and foibles. But nobody hits him, not even on the butt. And his behavior is pretty good. He is learning the slow, but deep way right now. Spanking would be the fast way, but somewhat shallow in its deliverance of real understanding.
In fact, SPANKING is the mark of the lazy parent. I might have spanked him this morning because he insisted on taking a shower with me...its a pain in the butt keeping an eye on him while I wash my hair and shave...plus its still chilly in the morning and I have to spray him with warm water to keep him warm...and I really don't have time....but instead I endured it. I figure he will get bored with the idea of showering with me eventually as I don't pay much attention to him or play with him.
Mind, I am not one of those who woke up one fine day and decided I was dead set against spanking. I may yet employ it when he is older and most definitely knows better...maybe when he is five or six. But it will be the last resort of last resorts. Even now, at two and half, after all those attempts at calm reasoning, saying sorry that he can't have all he wants right now, plain refusal to obey his every demand and letting him suffer that, he is getting more and more reasonable. Its the better way....but its a hell of a lot of work, thought and patience, that I don't deny.

I also don't deny that it does seem many Japanese parents do nothing and that is worse than spanking. Many Japanese parents leave the parenting to the schools, and the result is the schools have become gulags of big brotherish meddling and military regimentation of these kid's lives. They do things every day with no reason but to keep them too busy to do anything else. They have to write reports on their day for the teachers to read and judge. I think its pretty sick.

 

[ejay1]

That you are spanking your two and half year old son is not an opinion. That sir, is a fact.
The only time I ever hit my son was when he was about one and half, and it was a reflex because of a sharp pain caused by his teeth biting into my arm. I did not wail on him, but in reflex I hit him on the back harder than I would have liked. No harm done, but I felt like crap.
As far as I am concerned, the only reason to spank my son would be to keep him from touching something or doing something that would be a serious danger to him. But about the only way for there to exist such a danger is that I was not paying attention. I worry about my son running from the yard into the street, so I put up a fence. I worried about him breaking the glass in the shoji doors, so I covered them with wood. Etc... He does not want to sit down at the dinner table? Okay, he is two. Eventually he will want to sit down like the rest of us. And yes, that is what he now does and why.
Now I will admit that it takes a lot of thought and work to get by without spanking at such an age. I know I would be lost without my wife pretty much constantly on the ball and those tireless day care workers, plus occasional visits from Grandma. They all work hard to train my son and endure all his whinings and foibles. But nobody hits him, not even on the butt. And his behavior is pretty good. He is learning the slow, but deep way right now. Spanking would be the fast way, but somewhat shallow in its deliverance of real understanding.
In fact, SPANKING is the mark of the lazy parent. I might have spanked him this morning because he insisted on taking a shower with me...its a pain in the butt keeping an eye on him while I wash my hair and shave...plus its still chilly in the morning and I have to spray him with warm water to keep him warm...and I really don't have time....but instead I endured it. I figure he will get bored with the idea of showering with me eventually as I don't pay much attention to him or play with him.
Mind, I am not one of those who woke up one fine day and decided I was dead set against spanking. I may yet employ it when he is older and most definitely knows better...maybe when he is five or six. But it will be the last resort of last resorts. Even now, at two and half, after all those attempts at calm reasoning, saying sorry that he can't have all he wants right now, plain refusal to obey his every demand and letting him suffer that, he is getting more and more reasonable. Its the better way....but its a hell of a lot of work, thought and patience, that I don't deny.

I also don't deny that it does seem many Japanese parents do nothing and that is worse than spanking. Many Japanese parents leave the parenting to the schools, and the result is the schools have become gulags of big brotherish meddling and military regimentation of these kid's lives. They do things every day with no reason but to keep them too busy to do anything else. They have to write reports on their day for the teachers to read and judge. I think its pretty sick.

I also seem to see a difference in how pure japanese kids act around their parents compared to japanese kids with a japanese father and asian mom
. the regular japanese kids sometimes even act like the one in charge with their parents....that **** doesnt pass if their mom is non-japanese asian (korean, filipina, thai) moms dont play that game...your bound to get slapped if you talk that ****

 

[Petaris]

That you are spanking your two and half year old son is not an opinion. That sir, is a fact.
The only time I ever hit my son was when he was about one and half, and it was a reflex because of a sharp pain caused by his teeth biting into my arm. I did not wail on him, but in reflex I hit him on the back harder than I would have liked. No harm done, but I felt like crap.
As far as I am concerned, the only reason to spank my son would be to keep him from touching something or doing something that would be a serious danger to him. But about the only way for there to exist such a danger is that I was not paying attention. I worry about my son running from the yard into the street, so I put up a fence. I worried about him breaking the glass in the shoji doors, so I covered them with wood. Etc... He does not want to sit down at the dinner table? Okay, he is two. Eventually he will want to sit down like the rest of us. And yes, that is what he now does and why.
Now I will admit that it takes a lot of thought and work to get by without spanking at such an age. I know I would be lost without my wife pretty much constantly on the ball and those tireless day care workers, plus occasional visits from Grandma. They all work hard to train my son and endure all his whinings and foibles. But nobody hits him, not even on the butt. And his behavior is pretty good. He is learning the slow, but deep way right now. Spanking would be the fast way, but somewhat shallow in its deliverance of real understanding.
In fact, SPANKING is the mark of the lazy parent. I might have spanked him this morning because he insisted on taking a shower with me...its a pain in the butt keeping an eye on him while I wash my hair and shave...plus its still chilly in the morning and I have to spray him with warm water to keep him warm...and I really don't have time....but instead I endured it. I figure he will get bored with the idea of showering with me eventually as I don't pay much attention to him or play with him.
Mind, I am not one of those who woke up one fine day and decided I was dead set against spanking. I may yet employ it when he is older and most definitely knows better...maybe when he is five or six. But it will be the last resort of last resorts. Even now, at two and half, after all those attempts at calm reasoning, saying sorry that he can't have all he wants right now, plain refusal to obey his every demand and letting him suffer that, he is getting more and more reasonable. Its the better way....but its a hell of a lot of work, thought and patience, that I don't deny.

I also don't deny that it does seem many Japanese parents do nothing and that is worse than spanking. Many Japanese parents leave the parenting to the schools, and the result is the schools have become gulags of big brotherish meddling and military regimentation of these kid's lives. They do things every day with no reason but to keep them too busy to do anything else. They have to write reports on their day for the teachers to read and judge. I think its pretty sick.

Did you even read my post before posting your response? I didn't say I spanked my two and half year old. I am sorry if that was not clear enough with the "Although we are not at this point yet.." phrase. I also indicated that it would be a punishment reserved for very serious misbehavior.

It seems like every thread you join and every topic you start is for the sole purpose of trying to start an argument. Why is this?

As for your last paragraph, its pretty much the same in the US. The schools are expected to raise the kids.

 

[Mike Cash]

oh this cheered me up, and I know that you know why.

Why? Because you imagine that I've been put in my place by it? All he did was to make himself look petulant and further prove my point.

 

[nahadef]

Why? Because you imagine that I've been put in my place by it? All he did was to make himself look petulant and further prove my point.

No Mike, I said 'no'. No animosity, and no preference you don't participate. I wasn't trying to put you in your place either, nor acting petulant either. Just having a little humour. Lighten up

By all means, if you have two cents to drop in on the topic, I'd love to hear it.

 

[Mark of Zorro]

Did you even read my post before posting your response? I didn't say I spanked my two and half year old. I am sorry if that was not clear enough with the "Although we are not at this point yet.." phrase. I also indicated that it would be a punishment reserved for very serious misbehavior.

I took the "at this point yet" to mean you were not arguing about it yet.

It seems like every thread you join and every topic you start is for the sole purpose of trying to start an argument. Why is this?

Seems is the operative word. What I think is really going on is that people don't like to have their opinions challenged. And its something that will happen a lot as I am in more disagreement with the status quo than most people.

As for your last paragraph, its pretty much the same in the US. The schools are expected to raise the kids.

I see. I have not been back to the States long enough in the last two decades to notice myself.

Anyway, glad to find you are not spanking your two and half year old. I had a friend who did and I did not think too much about it at the time. The memories make me cringe. Not that he was brutal about it, but it was most unfair to that poor boy.

 

[Grandpa Frank]

Back on topic.

Not to sound like the old " I walked 5 miles through the snow in my bare feet to go to school " type story , but many kids when I was a child got punished the hard way. When we did something bad , dad's belt or a wooden paddle were common. My mother took a broomstick to me a few times. What would now be classified as abusive treatment and get parents arrested was once fairly normal. I learned what was right and wrong and behaved most of the time. I don't think I turned out to bad from it all. A swat on the fanny with an open hand doesn't seem to horrible to me.

Uncle Frank

 

[nahadef]

As I said Mike, lighten up. If there's anyone on this forum deserving of being poked with a stick, it's you.

 

[thomas]

< mantra mode >

Gentlemen, please follow Frank's advice and stay on topic: "Japanese parenting" is what this thread is about. Cross your daggers in the PM section. Thank you.

</ mantra mode >

 

[Mike Cash]

He made me at least a co-topic in his original post, so I fail to see how I am off topic.

Def could do with a little more tightness in his composition when starting new threads and a lot less stream of consciousness and extraneous matter which leads his threads to rapidly drift in an unintended direction. He also needs to maintain some distinction between them and not bleed one over into another by indulging his childish whim to make a personal jab and making clear allusions to points he didn't like in a prior thread. He muddied his own waters on this. I certainly don't think I or anyone else should be expected to let something like the stunt he pulled in the opening post to pass without comment. And I certainly don't appreciate the repeated "Lighten up" remarks coming from the person whose own petty childishness instigated things in the first place. I was quietly and peacefully minding my own business when he decided to start crap with me in a thread I had yet to say a single word in. You don't get to intentionally and maliciously poke people with a stick and then tell them to "Lighten up" as though they are the ones at fault when you get a reaction out of them, Def.

 

[theBrokenMonkey]

I might be wrong here, but I am under the impression the Japan has some issues regarding the general behaviour of the younger generations as a whole. People born before the late 70's or so were all brought up to be the polite, in-line, people that still are somewhat the back bone of Japan, while the generation who grew up during the 80's and 90's tend to be a little more out of order.

Is this a typical western misinterpretation or is there something to it?

The small kids today, I would say, seem not to be more out of order than the small kids in Sweden. Though one might argue that kids in Sweden are spoiled beyond and reason and many of them might actually benefit from being yelled at properly once in a while.

I think the most shocking thing here is how many the parents are who, without a second thought drive around in their cars without using child safety seats or even seat belts. Maybe I am just being swedish about this, I don't know of the policies on this matter int the US or UK or anywhere else, but it still shocks me whenever I see it. The actually said on the news the other day that about 60% of japanese parents do not use safety seat or seat belt for their kids. Maybe a little bit off-topic... Sorry. Just had to mention it.

My wife used to do the threat-hing sometimes to our two year old, though not about making him stand outside. We have talked about it and I think she actually understood my point about it not being so very nice. At least she does not do it anymore. Discipline is very important for small children though and we fight all through the days to teach him what is, and what is not, okay to do.

 

[nahadef]

Brokenmonkey,
I've heard a lot of the same, that things are lax now. Even in schools, physical discipline was the norm, and now, it can degenerate into hooliganism in the worse places.

If parents are lax, my wife certainly doesn't fall in line with that. I'm stricter than my parents were with me (I think), but my wife makes me look like a softy. We've always used carseats though, 100% of the time.

 

[Mark of Zorro]

Not to sound like the old " I walked 5 miles through the snow in my bare feet to go to school " type story , but many kids when I was a child got punished the hard way. When we did something bad , dad's belt or a wooden paddle were common. My mother took a broomstick to me a few times. What would now be classified as abusive treatment and get parents arrested was once fairly normal. I learned what was right and wrong and behaved most of the time. I don't think I turned out to bad from it all. A swat on the fanny with an open hand doesn't seem to horrible to me.

Uncle Frank

I caught the tail end of that era. My mother was the liberal type...she gave me freedom, she almost never hit me, she tried her best to reason with me and did a pretty good job of it, explaining the why of most everything and getting me to analyze my own behavior. My father was absent. My grandfather was busy. I don't remember my Aunt ever hitting me, but she could be pretty scary. On the other hand, when she found the time to teach, she was stern and impatient, but accurate in method of the actual thing she was teaching. My grandmother waffled between nice and stern, but she could also go to fire and brimstone in the right conditions. If anyone hit me, it was her. Not to make her sound like a demon, cause she wasn't, but there was a special tree/bush with thin whippy branches, and she would break one off, strip it of bark and whip me pretty good if I messed up. On the other hand, she made excellent cookies! And I remember all her baking more than the whipping, so there you go.

In school, I got paddled a few times. And that era closed when I ended junior high. And its not even so much that I am so against paddling a bit, cause teachers go their hands full, and some stuff that went on proved that so many parents just were not doing their job. Trouble is, teachers were making up excuses to paddle cause they got off on it. At least one instance I can remember the reason was very, very piss poor to go paddling me so hard. Might have been blatant stupidity, but personally, I think that biatch got off on it. (and teachers only seem to be getting crazier. look up the child who got punished for daring to chew his pop tart into the shape of a gun).

Now, one of the biggest problems I have with corporal punishment is not the bruises nor the welts nor even a little blood. Those heal. (broken bones, teeth, scars, and organ damage are right out though). The biggest problem I have is the installation of FEAR driven home deep with that pain. And I have a problem with today's society in America where it seems the installation of fear in the populace is just fine and dandy, and I wonder if it comes from the good ole days (see my sig) that the older crowd is turning America into a country of fear in response to their own childhood.

On the other hand, as I indicated before, Japan seems to be the land of paranoia, with big brother watching you all the time and the local rumor mill out of control. Anything you do is liable to be misinterpreted and blabbed about. The only good thing is that it happens so much that the Japanese just look at a lot of stuff and say "oh well" rather than pull the American sitcom neighbor thing and call the police to try and put a stop to it.

 

[pauro12]

I guess it's a bit cultural rather than anything else. Here in the Phils, we do the same. We inflict suffering, and little about limiting luxuries. I've also heard from my parents abroad that westernians avoid inflicting suffering to children, like if a child is crying in your neighbor, you can call a police and report your neighbor. So it's a bit cultural then. I guess I'd suggest that you talk to your wife about this matters, and should formulate a better way of discipline that both of you will agree.

 

[FinancialWar]

I'm a Westerner married to a Japanese. We're mostly in agreement when parenting, but things come up.

For example, my daughter is pretty apathetic to commands. She might be disabled, or maybe she's just not that kind of kid. Raising a kid bilingually makes judgement calls a lot harder in regards to their development. Anyway, my attitude is that if she doesn't listen, she should be prohibited from things she likes, like cartoons or anime. My partner instead threatens. She says she'll put her outside if she doesn't eat dinner. This upsets me, since it doesn't seem like a parent's behaviour.

I've told her that I think it's fine to restrict luxuries for misbehaviour, but not to inflict suffering. I feel it creates and adversarial relationship between parents and children. Her reply? That's totally fine in Japan.

Generally, I have no 'Japanese' questions after being here ten years (MIKE CASH), but I have little experience in child-rearing here. In N.America, the punishment model may have been normal decades ago, but it's not so much today. How about today in Japan? Can you share your experiences?

What do you mean she might be "disabled"? Your daughter is clearly undisciplined and that's you and your wife's fault, your child needs severe discipline, like big time. 養不教、父の過.

First do you have 家訓 and 家憲? If you don't have one immediate graft these two immediately, where 家訓 list general principle and values that defines your family, and 家憲 that list everything from roles, responsibility and privilege of each member of the family, command chain, family hierarchy rules and goals, reward and punishments, each member of the family member must strictly obey the 家憲 at all times and every member must be punishment uniformly to set example for everyone else. Your 家憲 should draw ideas from various classics books to modern pedagogy books to religious books (take only moral lessons and minus the religious bull**** of course).

Now in the art of war, the first chapter clearly states, a clear command is the responsibility of the commander, following the order is the responsibility of the soldier, therefore, a well written and enforced 家憲 is the responsibility of the Father (not the Mother, since Father is the chief of a famility), everyone else, wife and the children must be absolute obey the 家憲, the father upholds the 家憲 by strict follow the rules laid out in the 家憲.

Second enrol her in a traditional martial art class such as kyokushinkai or kodokan, where respect and discipline is harshly enforced. This well teach your child that discipline and punishment is a norm in society and in the family, make sure your child study and memorise 道場訓, which states that one must respect senior, be discipline etc at all times. This will make her physically disciplined and strong and the importance of self denial and frugality, you shall train with your child in the dojo and everyday outside dojo, don't be one of those parent that make their child train and sit on the bench and watch, set out a goal to achieve a black belt within X years.

Third enrol your child in Chinese 国学 class and she learns Chinese classics such as the Art of War, Confucius and Mencius, and Japanese's book of five rings etc, this will teach her Confucius value and military discipline and planning and the importance of chain of command and obedience.

Fourth, teach her Western military classics and ethical classics such as "On War" and "Poor Richard's Almanack" etc, this should her that descipline and order exists both in Eastern culture and Western culture.

Fifth, probably one of the easiest, follow a religion, people who have a religion and more disciplined, they always obey some higher being, I would suggest Judaism or Muslim, they are the most disciplined, since your in Japan, Buddhism or Shinto would do. The risk is that your family might stray into radicalism and fundamentalism, which is why I suggest take moral lessons from different religions instead of blindly following it, that way it will take more effort and time but you will follow the moral guidelines and not believe in bull**** like a guy able to walk on water, or 72 virgins after death etc

Last point, discipline your wife and your self. The best way to train a child is to set example.

 

[nahadef]

Yeah, I'm just going to ignore that all, FW. Seems for the best.

 

[FinancialWar]

That's fine. You sow what you reap. An undisciplined child means undisciplined parents.

Good luck.