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Japan to teach patriotism to children

Now I've no complete idea on what are you talking about now. What does Venezuela have to do with avoiding brainwash of children? And why protecting them from being brainwashed is an utopia at all?
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Really, if your not familiar with what is happening there I 'll have to go and find some links for you to read up on the growing "nationalism in Venezuela". Oh that is from the US press, but evidently in the Venezuelan press they are calling it the new "patriotism" in their country.

In many cases the line between nationalism and patriotism is a fine line defined by how the person is viewing it.


THank you for clarifying that because from this statement it is very easy to get the impression to me at least, that you were talking about utopia.

Still, I would perfer to live in a world where one could grow free without being brainwashed by either the government or religious organizations.
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Either way you still are talking about utopia from your point of view. If you are not tell me one country in the world where people can grow up in total ignorance or freedom from brainwashing.

Schools should be this or schools should be that....it's still utopia you are talking about, there is no school anywhere that is totally free from bias, as much as you would like it to be or not. It's called the human factor.

Let them choose on their own...mmmm who is going to be the one that influences their decision process? Think about that, somehow, somewhere, someone is going to be a factor in the decision that they make, it is impossible to not think otherwise. Once again utopia.


Actually a flag it's just what it is, a flag.
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It's called semantics here, if you really believe that a flag is just a flag, try taking a walk through parts of Baghdad with the flag of the US drapped over your shoulders. I highly doubt you will see the end of that particular street alive, but then again to you a flag is just a flag. Get the point?
 
I am aware of what's happening on venezuela, I just don't get it's relevance for any of this discussion subject.

There is no doubt that one personality is result of both his interaction with other and their influence with him, no discussion there. Still, there is a difference between having a teacher who is patriotic (even if for sometimes he states his own belives on classes), and having a school program with the objective of transforming children into government's puppets.

The point it's always the same. Giving too much importance to, in this case, a piece of tissue, it's wrong. Making others to belive that is worse.

About your example, even if one, as myself, does not consider the flag to be something more than just a flag, it shouldn't mean that I'm retarded and that I don't realize that it may symbolise something more to other people.
 
I am aware of what's happening on venezuela, I just don't get it's relevance for any of this discussion subject.
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I use this an example of what can happen, even in todays world, when one person with power can influence and "brainwash" an entire country into believing that what they are learning is patriotic and not nationalist. Hitler did the same during the 1930's in Germany. Too many people in my opinion underestimate the power of Japan and it's history. They may not seem nationalistic now, but the history here suggests something totally different.

To institute "ai kokumin" studies into the Japanese classroom needs to be done with very careful thought to the history of Japan as well. So the Japanese children of today do not repeat the errors of their grandfather's.


No argument from me here, however when you have a society that treats the nail the sticks out with a hammer the government and it's educational polices and directives need to be thoroughly examined by multiple "professionals" and not just instituted by the party currently in power. Which seemingly could possibly happen if Abe has his "way".



Like it or not. The flag is a very powerful symbol of both good and evil to most people throughout the world. There are just too many examples out there that to not accept that fact. A flag while physically is just a piece of cloth brings emotions and feelings that just about no other inanimate object does.

Oh and if it wasnt a flag it would be something else entirely. Throughout thousands of years of human history symbols have been used to identify countries and their people. In my opinion your ideas about this are somewhat naeve in believing it to be otherwise. Likes, dislikes or feelings about the subject aside, the fact is the flag of many countries bring out many strong feelings and emotions among billions of people in the world. That is something that will never change, however much you may hope it to be otherwise.

it shouldn't mean that I'm retarded
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Your words not mine, and you are greatly mistaken if you thought that is what I was inferring to.
 
What I like or dislike isn't important at all. And I do know that many people are attached to symbols such as flags, religious artifacts or national monuments and that they grant them a degree of importance I don't find... healthy. Still, allowing children to grow without being brainwashed is certainly a good starting point.
Obeika said:
Your words not mine, and you are greatly mistaken if you thought that is what I was inferring to.
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Yes, don't worry. I knew you didn't mean that. I was just making a point.
 

Oh I dont know, I think that your opinions and thoughts on the matter are very important, because someday I think that you, along with anyone and everyone else will come across or have the opportunity to be in a position to influence how someone thinks or feels about a given topic. Even in our discussion here I hope that I have learned something as well.

I agree with you wholeheartedly about your point about children.

Yes, don't worry. I knew you didn't mean that. I was just making a point.
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Gotchya' thank you by the way for sharing your ideas and thoughts on this topic.
 
I would avoid the mainstream US press on anything, especially international news (it has always been poor in this respect. ask anyone who has spent a decent time abroad), including stuff the Bush administration criticizes, which includes Venezuela.

There's a lot of disinformation out there about what is going on in that country.

The Venezuelan Revolution: 100 Questions-100 Answers
Is one source you can get via inter-library loan.

I believe Venezuela is an example of successfully standing up to the US, so far. The US never likes this and labels anything remotely close using a countries resources for the population instead of primarily export as commie.
The 2nd link above is a book about US involvement in the attempted coup a couple years back, including declassified documents as sources.


'Third world' nationalism - bad.
US nationalism - good.
Japanese nationalism - as long as it doesn't bother Uncle Scam.
 
I believe Venezuela is an example of successfully standing up to the US, so far. The US never likes this and labels anything remotely close using a countries resources for the population instead of primarily export as commie.
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Like I wrote depending on the perspective of the viewer nationalism and patriotism are two different sides of the same sheet of paper.

It isnt just the Bush administration either that is guilty of expounding it's version of nationalism it goes back from Clinton and damn near every other US Administration as well It's just easier to remember recent history that's all.

Japan does not need to aggravate the situation with it's neighbors any more and would be better off in teaching it's students the place it's country has in the world along with a healthy dose of honesty in regards to it's history, both good and bad, political agenda aside as well.
 
Gentlemen, gentlemen...as it does appear that most of us now participating in this thread are of the sort, I would like to first make appeal to the matter of keeping slightly tighter bounds on the thread topic, please.
Next, I would like to suggest that it would probably be found that there is no need or great benefit in resigning ourselves to emotionally pointed arguments or exchanges on this topic either. We may all adhere to our variances of understandings of those concerns which have room for variance--and that would surely include most of the immediate subjec matter, indeed.


As for my way of taking things, I have vouched for 'love of country' (#27) yet would never concede to that phrase's being so equal with the more commonly, pragmatically understanding involved with the term 'patriotism'.
Especially is that so in regards to how such a concept, here in Japan, could (and I'm speaking of that latter term) breath life into a form of nationalized thought over and against other nations. I see it as something that would not be healthy.


Having a 'love for ones on country', however, (again, as I see it) does not stem from any political format nor even any idea of 'established nation'. (It is high time that we homo sapiens pushed our level of consciousness to higher levels of acceptance, erasing the mental lines that have always partitioned us off from one another.) In Japan, as we know it, the tendency to adhere, in various ways to various degrees, to in-group bonding is strong--perhaps more so than many other national groups-- and that may well be the root of such concerns regarding even 'patriotism'. (which by pragmatic definition always regresses to a matter of fighting)


While those who are philosophically inclined can finely nuance the meanings of 'patriotism' and 'nationalism', in the more pragmatic reality, the overlap is far too great to be ignored--and in my opinion, is not to be. I am of the opinion that it would be wrong to incourage children towards anything other than developing a love for what is their own, and then work on extending that to a love for what is someone else's--neither tainted with 'patriotism' nor 'nationalism.

I hope the volleying will at least be with less emotional lean in it.
 
Mars Man thank you for your input here. It was thoughtful to say the least.

I have many personal concerns about the subject itself, I have Japanese children and am concerned about the subject matter that they are being taught in their classrooms. Fortunately I am able to give them a broader view of how the rest of the world views Japan and its history so I make it an important part of my day to understand and help form my childrens thoughts and views about the country that they are now living in.

There have been a number of occasions that they have come home and told me stories about how their teachers glossed over topics such as Pearl Harbor and made the US out to be the instigator of the events that lead up to WWII. There are a number of other examples I could share as well. They were confused as to whom they should believe. The discussion we had was informative for both myself and them as well. Fortunately I was able to instill upon them that they need to learn to think for themselves and to work hard at making a decision based not on the facts of one side of a story but try to look at things from many different angles, even if you do not like the direction that the information takes you in regards to your country or heritage.

Now back to the topic at hand. Making the teachers stand for the national anthem, or face the threat of being fired. Is a type of nationalism not patriotism however much the two may or may not overlap. Having a Gov of a major metropolitan area say things that the "foreigners" that are living in Japan are the reasons that crime is on the rise. Having a PTA President tell an Amer-Asian child that if they hadn't been born then there wouldn't be any Amer-Asian problem are some of the growing roots of nationalism here in Japan. From the highest levels of government to the local level as well.

To allow these thoughts or thought patterns to continue is in my opinion wrong. That is why I am concerned about the process in which Japan will take in instituting this "pride in country" education. Many people need to voice their opinions and let their leaders know that these types of examples like I have given among a huge list of many more will not be tolerated.

The problem as I see it though is that inside many peoples hearts they actually believe what they are hearing, mostly because they have not been taught to think for themselves.

Hence the concern about making sure the line between nationalism and patriotism are clearly defined before they are taught in schools here.
 
Now back to the topic at hand. Making the teachers stand for the national anthem, or face the threat of being fired. Is a type of nationalism not patriotism however much the two may or may not overlap. Having a Gov of a major metropolitan area say things that the "foreigners" that are living in Japan are the reasons that crime is on the rise. Having a PTA President tell an Amer-Asian child that if they hadn't been born then there wouldn't be any Amer-Asian problem are some of the growing roots of nationalism here in Japan. From the highest levels of government to the local level as well.

Hello OBEIKA,
I am not living in Japan but in the Netherlands. Exactly what you just described happens also in my country. Muslims are terrorists or have other unpleasant names. I guess that people in general are a little scared for different cultures living in "their" country. People may say that they don't like foreigners, you may of course deep in your heart not trust those strangers. Maybe it is quite natural?

But never ever should a member of our governments offend or hurt the feelings of the foreigners living in their countries. That is below level.
Of course I understand your feelings and it is easy for me to talk because I live in Europe. Asians see things different from Europeans, I know because I grew up in the Far East, in Indonesia.

Long before the Japanese occupation of Indonesia in 1942, Japanese kids went to Japanese schools. The Japanese living in Indonesia very seldom contacted the Dutch. Yet there are thousands of Eurasians coming from Europeans (mostly Dutch) who lived and worked in Indonesia.
Maybe the Japanese have really trouble to like foreigners. During WWII I learned that they can even hate foreigners.
 
Elizabeth thank you for your post, I was unaware that this was happening in Europe as well.

It's kind of scary that history could repeat itself. That is what I think I am mostly afraid of, not so much for myself but for my children.
 
Thanks for that futher explanation Obeika san. I think I fully understand your points made, yet still deem that both 'patriotism' and 'nationalism' are outdated belief-systems of a sort. The religiousity that is hardwired into the human brain can surely be use in a much broader sense. For that reason, I have taught my children, who have also grown up here in Japan, to be world citizens, and have constantly focused on that, so that there has been very little need to chose between the two states that could be represented by the little lady (Japanese national) and myself (American national).

I fully agree with you on the point of critical thinking; and have as well as am making every effort to instil a feel for critical thinking in my three sons. It is something that the education system at the lower levels too greatly lacks. I teach them to love the world, free from the two terms which have been discussed, and thus have no need for worrying, really, about the degrees which they could be differentiated. (I would argue, that without the concept of nation--the underlying basis of 'nationalism' in the pragmatic realm--we could not have a patriot--the underlying element of 'patriotism'--as a good study of the terms clearly enough leads to.

Let's hope that our efforts to be more open-minded and internationally orientated, as I feel we both lean towards, lead to some results through our children's grandchildren
!! MM

Nice to see you posting here Elizabeth !! Thanks for sharing !!
 
Actually a flag it's just what it is, a flag.
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Flags can also be strong iconic symbols for some. Try walking through downtown Atlanta with a Confederate flag draped around your shoulders and see what kind of reactions you elicit. 8-p
 
But its empty symbolism, Chef.

Patriotism is caring about your country, attaching emotions to a peice of coloured fabric is your own choice.

For example, I know the Scottish Salire represents my country, just as my school uniform had the school crest, or my previous jobs had the employee badge with the company logo, but it isnt my country.

No-one should be demonized for "disrespecting" the flag, because its merely a peice of fabric, a logo, a symbol of a nation.

No-one should be called un-patriotic for not saluting a flag, or singing an anthem to it.

No-one should lose their job because they dont want to do the above.
 
I appologize if my posts seem to be heated.
I don't necessarily intend them to be.
If there's one thing I can't stand is "The US is the greatest country" or even "goodest" that US politicians say, hint at, or actually believe (not just Bush).
It is labeled as unPatriotic in some corners to question this non-sense. Even labeled by some as "America-bashing" or "hating". How rediculous. Perhaps worse, people that believe such crap, including some people supposedly close to me. Maybe the worst comes only from bigots like AM radio personality Rush Limbaugh and I shouldn't worry? I know most people that frequent jref don't ascribe to such opinions. The area that I live in is probably the most conservative in my state (but not country, thank gawd), so I appologize if some of this comes out here.


Maybe some of the nationalism and jingoism has died down in the last year and a half in the US, but it is still present and much present even before 2001. "They" used it to start wars of aggression and continue an illegal occupation. What we fear what might happen in Japan or Europe is going on with the US. People dissappeared without the human right to a trial? Luckily some courts in Europe are attempting to bring CIA persons to justice for those extra-judicial secret renditions. It's a disgusting. Brings to mind other stuff I've barely started to learn about: the dirty wars throughout Latin America that spawned groups such as Mothers of the Dissappeared in Argentina (that the US also had a dirty hand in). Attempts to conquer another country? Attempts to cover it up as a mere mistake or we have to "pay for what we broke". Yeah, pay in $$ big time, just get the heck out, the US has zero credibility in Iraq and probably any where else it seeks to initiate anything internationally for maybe decades to come.


Anyway,
thanks for all your posts everybody.
They slightly put my mind at ease with this sort of stuff.
 
Maybe nationalism is not so bad?
but when mixed with religion, as in Imperial Japan, and Nazi Germany,
it can be disasterous.
 

I think that our children are fortunate to be born to parents of two different nations and cultures. They are exposed to much more culturally and hopefully will have more open minds as they grow up and learn to think for themselves.

If the terms "nationalism" and "patriotism" are outdated what would you use in their place? I realize that they are both fundamentally intertwined yet personally I still see a place for their use. I guess I was raised or should I say educated to understand the differences between the two, without the political baggage attached either.

I also think that the word "patriot" is mostly used by American's to describe themselves. Do you or anyone else here for that matter know if the word patriot is used in the same or similar context in other English speaking countries?

In Japanese the word "patriot" means 窶ｹ~ﾂ坂? ,窶堋ｫ窶堙｣窶堋､窶堋ｱ窶堋ｭ, or ﾂ坂?佛ｽm, 窶堋ｱ窶堋ｭ窶堋ｵ, or ﾋ?､ﾂ坂?倪?堙固ｽuﾅｽm, 窶堋?窶堋｢窶堋ｱ窶堋ｭ窶堙娯?堋ｵ窶堋ｵ and the word nationalism means 窶督ｯ窶伉ｰﾅｽﾃ･窶ｹ`, 窶堙昶?堙ｱ窶堋ｼ窶堋ｭ窶堋ｵ窶堙｣窶堋ｬ or ﾋ?､ﾂ坂?佛ｽﾃ･窶ｹ` 窶堋?窶堋｢窶堋ｱ窶堋ｭ窶堋ｵ窶堙｣窶堋ｬ. All of which bring up thoughts and memories of WWII, uyoku etc etc. So I guess even here in Japan the words may be outdated as well.

I asked a friend of mine what was the first thing that came to his mind when he heard these words and he told me "war".

He is a social studies teacher and is also concerned himself about how the current Japanese administration plans to institute this subject into the Japanese curriculum. He mentioned that because of WWII that many Japanese still have feelings of shame and guilt and when the current government brings up this topic they cringe at the thought of children being taught the same things that caused the war in the first place.

They want to see the kids being taught to love their fellow man and their country next.
 
Yes, Obeika san, I'm right there with you on the point about our children, and am sure there are some number of couples of mixed national background and even some of pure Japanese background that work at instilling such internationally healthy attitudes in their children.

Obeika said:
If the terms "nationalism" and "patriotism" are outdated what would you use in their place?
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Not wanting to stay off the immediate topic too much, I'd simply say that in my seeing the terms as linguistic symbols of belief-system of sorts, both of which are defineable in historical terms of an in-group in opposition to an out-group, I simply don't use any single term. Paraphrases of the concept which I hold--regardless of how idealistic it may well be--seem to work well enough. (every year I give a talk on Internationalism here, and as far as I can tell, the explanation works for the audience as well)


Obeika said:
Do you or anyone else here for that matter know if the word patriot is used in the same or similar context in other English speaking countries?
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I believe I do recall seeing that it is more of an 'American' usage, stemming from, of course, the Revolutionary War--there is the 'Patriot's Day' in a couple of New England states. Otherwise, I'm not sure.


Thanks for the Japanese explanation there, I hadn't checked out the possible wordings, but was fairly satisfied with the wording chosen. (which can be seen on the other thread on this subject) I think ﾋ?､ﾂ坂?伉心ﾂ (aikokushin; quite directly translated [love for country heart]) is a great improvement on those general terms compariable to the English 'patriot (ﾂ〜ism)' and 'national (ﾂ〜ism)'.

Another thing that had caught my eye (as in the other thread) was the matter of trying to instil religious sentiment--or however the real thing might turn out.

Thanks for you comments and information and thoughts there. Let's just keep our fingers crossed yet.
 
Hi Obeika and Mars Man,

I have two adopted children from India, a son and a daughter. They are even more Dutch than I am, they have grown up in Holland. My son is an illustrator and computer expert, my daughter is a lawyer. Their skin is different from the Dutch of course but that is all.
And I still have a bit of an Indonesian mentality in me although I am snow white.
I am still very grateful that my father brought me to Indonesia when I was 1½ year young so that I could grow up overthere.

I believe that it is very good to live in other countries, learn about other cultures.
It has learnt me that bad countries don't exist, only bad governments, and thank goodness there are real fine people in every country in this world.
I am a proud inhabitant of our beautiful world.
 
Glossing over the WWII? Where? In Okinawa?
I am not from Okinawa or I am not student now, but my story was quite different one.
Go ahead, please.
 
pipokun said:
Glossing over the WWII? Where? In Okinawa?
I am not from Okinawa or I am not student now, but my story was quite different one.
Go ahead, please.
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Ok so your story was quite different, how so?

Go ahead, please.

Sarcasm aside here, if you would like people to share more I for one would think that after everything I have written here on this thread, particularly the concerns I have about the topic itself, I would hope to expect that someone who jumps in, in the middle of it, would share some information about what they are talking about before making a post like this one, wouldn't you agree?

Edited to apologize for the comment about jumping in the middle of the thread, I went back and reviewed the thread and see that you have made a few other posts here, however I still would like to ask you to elaborate more.
 
Hello pipokun,

I bet that you are still a very young man. I guess that you are from Tokyo?
I sincerely hope to read your story very soon. I have always realized that there are thousands of sights and outlooks by any story in this world.

Gloss over WWII, no please, that was a nightmare for all of us who lived is those days, in Europe, in America and in Asia.
Governments declared wars, young men were killed, millions of women and children got killed, two bombs fell on Japan, Tokyo was bombed by fire bombs, I vited Nagasaki. I have seen plces in Germany right after WWII.
When you have my age pipokun you know that World War Two was too horrible for words.

I always tell young people (where ever they live) let this never happen again.
The world is getting too small for patriotism. Young Africans are coming to Europe in order to find a better life. At least that's what they hope to find.

One of the most beautiful years were just after WW2, I was 18 years old and believed in peace for all people in this world. But also today I know that good people always win by thinking positively and trying not to be an egoist.

So please tell us your side of the story, it is good to speak things out instead of keeping hurt or angry feelings inside.
 
Off topic here....sorry folks, from my point of view I felt moved to include the following comment.

Elizabeth you are a very gentle, thoughtful, considerate human being. I must say that I wish I had your tolerance, understanding and thoughtfulness. Thank you for sharing your thoughts and insights.

I for one, in the short time that I have been posting here have found myself looking forward to your comments and thoughts.

You are similar in age to my mother, alive and well at 86 soon to be 87 on February 5th. I wish that she had the ability to post here as well.

No insult intended here, you must be the Grand Madame of this message board. Thank you.

Back on topic here......

Mars Man I like the word Internationalism because it describes in a healthy unbiased manner the way all countries governments should strive to attain. And like Elizabeth said, and to which I agree, there are no bad countries in the world only bad governments.

I like to tell my children that in all the places I have been on this earth the people, the average everyday people, outside of language differences and some cultural differences are pretty much the same. We all just want to have a better, safer, life for our children.

I've got my fingers crossed too. Thank you.
 
It is simple that peace is the most important thing and Japan should never repeat the past.
A teacher used a book, Kike Wadatsumi no Koe, for our history lesson.
It seems there is an English translation, Listen to the Voices from the Sea, and I highly recommend you should read it, esp., for young students.
At a school meeting, we watched a documentary film about Hiroshima & Nagasaki. That was not to be victimized too much, but to teach the victim in the war is not soldier, but ordinary people after all.
Of course, the tragedies of Okinawa was also the one.

It all depend upon your political stance, which, do you think, was the main factor that Japan does not start any war for 60 years, Japanese constitution, the US force, Cold War, Japanese effort for peace or else.
Just count how many Self Defence Force members killed or were killed.
 
It is simple that peace is the most important thing and Japan should never repeat the past.
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I agree wholeheartedly and I hope that everyone else agrees with us here as well.

I'm sorry I have never heard of that book, however here in Okinawa there is a period of study called "Heiwa-gakkshu" (Peace Studies) that is in every elementary school that I know of.
However that doesn't stop the teachers from teaching their position of how the war started in the first place. There are teachers that "blame" the US for the destruction that took place in Japan, conveniently overlooking the destruction, pain, and suffering that countless numbers of people suffered at the hands of the Japanese Imperial Army and Navy.

I have personally heard a teacher say the following; (I'm paraphrasing here because the conversation was in Japanese.)

There is just too much history to cover about Japan that we can not waste time talking about the "causes" of WWII. I want to spend more time covering the shogunate era and before. In nearly 5000 years of history the period leading up to and after WWII is just a drop in the bucket and not really worth spending a lot of time on.


Well outside of training accidents and natural deaths, zero self-defence forces have died in the service of Japan. And even those can not be interred in Yasukuni Shrine because they are not recognized as being as members of the Japanese military that died in the service of their country.

That is another topic however, just answering your comment/question here that's all.

What happened after the war has no bearing on the topic at hand, without the assistance of the US Japan would not be in the position it is in today. And that is a fact.
 
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