Japan plans foreign fingerprinting

[pipokun]

It is interesting to read threads in 2ch or else about something like "help! I want to go abroad, but I have criminal records!".
My conclusion is that US, UK and Australia is the 3 intolerent countries for some Japanese (not incl. me, of course).

A funny story...
if someone named pepokun arrested and registered at a black list of an Asian country who is trying to eradicate human-traficking or yakuza entering, it is likely that I can not enter the country.

 

[KirinMan]

I want to apologize if I came across a bit crass in my last post here. The point I am asking about is how far do you feel or think that countries can go in having some type of control over the entrance of foreigner's into their countries?

Is it wrong to not expect some type of controls over where one can go or what one can do when living in a foreign country? At least until that person establishes themselves as a viable member of that country or society?

If people feel that there should be total freedom from having their background's checked or being forced to carry around identification identifying them as a foreign resident, then how does a country, in this case Japan, maintain control over who comes and goes within their country?

Short time visitors of course have visa's. Long term residents, and those here for specific reasons must carry the foreigner registration card. If one complains about getting finger printed for that card then are you also against having to carry some type of identification as well?

As I have stated before I have a strong tendency to give people the benefit of the doubt and also look at things more positively than negatively, so I look at the fingerprinting at the most a necessary nuisance that one has to deal with living here.

 

[Sirius2B]

I don't plan to visit Japan soon, and if I go, I would not be bothered to put my fingerprints somewhere.

On the other hand, it is to be asked if this policy was motivated to satisfy, for example, a right-wing, xenophobic agenda of some politicians (I don't know Japanese politics at all, but I guess for similar cases).

Then I will ask, if all visitors would be fingerprinting equally, or there is such think as a "list of countries" specially targeted. Just for information.

After that, my complains would not go to Japan or the USA or any government that does it... but the goverments of those other countries, if they do not respond in tune, and do not fingerprints Japanese or US tourists.
Therefore, my respect to Brazil, that began to fingerprint US citizens after they begin to do the same with Brazilians.

I remember that I discussed this theme in another forum (Pravda.ru), and that many Americans in that forum, felt weird und angry, seeing photographs of the "good boys of USA" being fingerprinted by entering a foreign country... before, they failed to understand what a foreigner may felt being treated in a similar way when entering the USA.

No wonder, that Brazil is a Latin American power, that knows what dignity means, and responds in tune to everything it sees in the international arena.

Regards.

 

[Sukotto]

I just read an article on www.asahi.com about this issue. They say that the Ministry of Justice is now planning on holding onto these fingerprints for 70~80 years. They also plan to make a database of these prints to assist in criminal investigations.
A quote from the article:
ﾂ 窶邸窶督ｱﾂ湘遺?堙俄?堙ｦ窶堙ｩ窶堙?、窶愿ｼﾂ坂?伉審ﾂ債ｸﾅｽﾅｾ窶堙俄?板ｼﾅｽﾃｨ窶堙個人窶堋ｳ窶堋ｵﾅｽw窶堙固ｽw窶禿､窶堙ｰﾂ催固ｽﾃｦﾂ。窶佚篠湘崘ｽﾃ停?堙坂?扼ﾅ?ﾃ披?啅窶唹窶唹窶毒督〜窶啖窶唹窶唹窶毒督人窶堙俄?堙娯?堙壺?堙ｩﾂ。窶ｰﾃ溪?ｹﾅｽ窶堙俄?佚樞?ｹﾅｽ窶ｹﾂｭﾂ青ｧﾂ祥??｢ﾂｪ窶堙俄?堋ｵ窶堋ｽ窶禿ｱ窶啗窶唹窶毒督人窶｢ﾂｪ窶堙固ｽw窶禿､ﾂ・ﾅ?ﾃｧﾅｽﾃ環真窶堙姑椎?ﾆ湛ﾆ暖窶堙｢ﾂ坂?伉催崘炭ﾅｽ窶毒遅ﾅｽ@窶ｹ@ﾂ構ﾂ（窶喇窶喘窶嗤窶嗜ﾂ）窶堙固ｽﾃｨ窶掏ﾅｽﾃ槌椎?ﾆ湛ﾆ暖窶堙遺?堙??堙?湘?坂?｡窶堋ｷ窶堙ｩ窶堙吮?堋ｩﾂ、ﾆ断ﾂーﾆ耽ﾆ遅ﾂーﾆ湛窶ｰﾂｻ窶堋ｵ窶堙??敕?催溪??ﾂ債ｸ窶堙俄?堙?窶藩懌?廃窶堋ｷ窶堙ｩ窶｢ﾃｻﾅ津ｼﾂ。窶ｹﾃ溪?堋ｭ窶邸ﾋ???堋ｪﾂ青ｬ窶板ｧ窶堋ｷ窶堙ｪ窶堙篠、窶藩?秋窶堙俄?堙?ﾅｽn窶堙溪?堙ｩ窶能窶凖ｨ窶堋ｾﾂ。
Funny how quickly anti-terrorism measures can morph into something else, isn't it?

in the US, the "patriot" act is supposed to be for terrorist stuff only too,
the possibility of it:
http://www.truthout.org/docs_02/04.05D.JVB.Patriot.htm
and I'm pretty sure it has happened already.

US history (COINTELPRO) shows that governments before have used their powers to go beyond the law and spy on and actively disrupt political dissent, "patriot" seems to try and legalize such spying.


Has Japan ever witnessed spying on political dissidents/opposition in the post WW2 era? Active disruption/attempts at "neutralization" of dissent? Are their fears this law could be used against Japanese citizens? Could it be a first step towards finger printing all Japanese citizens as well? Other than that I agree with Sirius2B on this.

 

[Taiko666]

Thanks for your comments Obeika!

All Japanese students studying in London except some short-term students with tourist visa are required to submit police reports when they get student visa and need to submit all finger prints to the police.

If this is true then I'm surprised and depressed. How do you know this, Pipokun? What sort of police reports? I'll ask my Japanese girlfriend about this- she studied in London for a year. Mind you, that was 5 years ago, things may have become more crazy.

[Later] - Dang, now the UK's at it too.
http://www.ukvisas.gov.uk/servlet/F...t/Xcelerate/ShowPage&c=Page&cid=1165344659165
The Government's five-year Strategy for Asylum and Immigration entitled ﾂ'Controlling our borders: making migration work for Britain' published on 7 February 2005 announced that UKvisas will be collecting biometrics data from all visa applicants, irrespective of nationality.
I hadn't heard about this before, and I regularly read BBC news. Obviously, this takes the wind out of my sails a bit. But I still think it stinks...

Is it wrong to not expect some type of controls over where one can go or what one can do when living in a foreign country? At least until that person establishes themselves as a viable member of that country or society?

I see nothing wrong with having my background checked. I think education, work history and criminal record are both the mininum and maximum requirements. But since it's already been checked, and I've presumably been judged to be acceptable to Japan, I object to having my prints and mug-shot taken in case I become a criminal at some point in the future.

Long term residents, and those here for specific reasons must carry the foreigner registration card. If one complains about getting finger printed for that card then are you also against having to carry some type of identification as well?

Yes, I object to having to carry identification on pain of imprisonment! If everyone had to carry id then I'd be a lot easier with it. However, the current law is not only discrimatory, it's becoming increasingly unworkable. With more and more citizens not 'looking Japanese' (naturalized citizens, children of mixed-marriages etc) the situation will become chaotic. Unless these citizens carry some sort of id to prove they are Japanese, they're in for some interesting times down at the koban.
Anyway, now that even the UK's on the slippery slope, it's obvious that 'resistance is useless.' Perhaps that's why Debito et al don't seem to be focussing on this issue any more.

My solution: end discrimination! Every citizen should carry id, and have biometric data in their passports. Until then, the 'them and us' policies of Japan, the USA, and now the UK should be shelved. But switching into realism mode, this would be incredibly unpopular... hence the need to soften up the public by targeting those without a voice: foreigners.

 

[KirinMan]

I agree with much of what you say, but I am a realist in knowing that even though what you wrote would be great I never foresee it happening in my lifetime.

this would be incredibly unpopular... hence the need to soften up the public by targeting those without a voice: foreigners.

Well the gaijin registration card has been in existance for a lot longer than the problems with world terrorism. As well as the green card too.

It may not make it right, but it is one thing that people have to deal with with living here. I happened to ask a good friend of mine his ideas on the subject and you know he thinks of it in a positive light as well. He thinks that the card itself is also a protection for foreigners living in Japan. Yet when I asked him about the scenario that you gave in your earlier post he became very thoughtful and did comment that he foresees all Japanese, someday needing to have some type of identification system, as the current system does have quite a few holes in it.

 

[pipokun]

My current passport is a machine readable one, but next one must be more high-tech one. It is hard to forge it now, but some stupid backpackers sold it abroad before.
A bit different stories, but a Japanese singer quit his activities for a while after a car accident. He drove with his IDP for years...
I don't see any differences between British and American drivers, but it is quite easier to get a liscense in the US and some Japanese abusers went to get ones.
I don't oppose the controversial basic resident register card, even though liberal heads claim it would bring a terribly government controlled society.

 

[Sukotto]

On registration cards,
isn't it a requirement to carry one's passport at all times already when in a foreign country?
and/or what's wrong with only that? Why need another card?



Fingerprinting by itself doesn't seem as bad,
but if you combine it with all the other stuff like
the US gov't has been doing in building Fortress America

Not the board game

Some authors and social and/or political scientists such as Bertram Gross have been warning about this type of thing for years.
Such authors suggest that things like Fortress America could be symptoms of a "friendly fascism" which would have evolved from the "classical fascism" of WW2 era.


This all ties into the need to maintain its imperial policy, which we see in the modern day United States. This quote by ultra-right wing guy:

"For any imperial policy to work effectively...it needs moral and intellectual guidance.... It is much to be doubted that the United States can continue to play an imperial role without the endorsement of its intellectual class.... It is always possible to hope that this intellectual class will...help formulate a new set of more specific principles that will relate the ideals which sustain American democracy to the harsh and nasty imperatives of imperial power."
--Irving Kristol

Bush has taken the step of putting US citizen's lives on the line to maintain empire, where as since the US invasion of Vietnam it has been done mainly with military "advisors" and fought by local regimes or para-militaries/death squads etc.. so opposition by the US public does not grow, as the 1980s in Central America shows.


Thus the need to keep it "friendly" instead of the classic in the streets and boot wearing gov't agents, "storm troopers". Although that is happening to some degree in the States with the Bush regime, disapperances of terrorist suspects, the ability of the president to simply label anybody including a US citizen as an "enemy combatant" and apparently (somehow) strip people of their rights and toss them in Guantanimo indefinately w/out legal representation (an appeals court has ruled recently is ok), as well as with the militarization of local police forces with all the riot gear and such.


Has Japan ever experienced anything similar to COINTELPRO in the states of gov't spying on (and actively trying to disrupt) political dissent or that of Reagan gov't spying on opposition to his Central American policies?

Granted it might be a leap from finger printing to trying to disrupt political dissent, but it is the same general direction. The dystopias popular of sci-fi thrillers are not inevitable futures (except the parts that already exist and are just presented in fiction as metaphor). I see no need for bio-passports or having one's dna coded into their passport. That seems to be for nothing more than control.

 

[Mikawa Ossan]

On registration cards,
isn't it a requirement to carry one's passport at all times already when in a foreign country?
and/or what's wrong with only that? Why need another card?

Good point!
The card takes the place of your passport, so to speak, and you carry that around in place of your passport. Personally I would hate to have to lug my passport around with me everywhere I go. I think part of has to do with the fact that on the registration card, they can put all of your important information vis a vis Japan in one convenient place.

The registration card is the same size as a credit card, so it's no hassle to carry around at all; just stick it in your wallet and you're good to go!

 

[pipokun]

My body image is no problem considering the visa waiver program.

 

[Thunderthief]

Nice to know ill be finger printed and mug shotted like a dirty criminal next time I go to japan.

 

[KirinMan]

Nice to know ill be finger printed and mug shotted like a dirty criminal next time I go to japan.

You know if that's how you feel about it then maybe it would be a better thing for you not to come here. Save a lot of people headaches from having to listen to your xenophobic attitude.

 

[craftsman]

Nice to know ill be finger printed and mug shotted like a dirty criminal next time I go to japan.

I know the feeling you're talking about but I can say exactly the same about visiting America.

 

[made of stone]

All Japanese students studying in London except some short-term students with tourist visa are required to submit police reports when they get student visa and need to submit all finger prints to the police.
If you're a Japan-loving advocate, please say something to the British immigration to work more efficiently...

Pipokun, where do you get this information? I ask because in the last few months I completed a one year student visa application here in the UK for a Japanese friend, and there was no need, or even request, to provide fingerprints, or produce police records. Sure there was a question 'have you ever been convicted of a crime in any country' and another 'have you ever had a proven connection to any terrorist organisation' (the exact phrasing I can't recall, but that was the exact meaning).

I think those kinds of questions are normal in any developed country's immigration procedures. And presumably, if you do answer 'yes' to these questions then you would have to produce the additional information, or provide fingerprints as a safety net of sorts to enter the country; that seems quite reasonable and fair.

On another point, it's very interesting to read about the possible difference in attitude between the US and UK.

I'm British and I too had a very hard time accepting being fingerprinted for my 'alien' card when it came down to it. Actually, it was something I didn't know about till after I'd arrived in Japan, and I did have second thoughts about going straight home again rather than put the finger to the ink, because I'm a great believer in civil liberties and very much anti-racism, and it struck me as an affront in both senses. After a good, long ponder though, I realised that the few thousand pounds, and six months of my life it had taken me to get to Japan, and the potentially life-changing experience I might have if I stayed, meant that I had to put up with it.

Having decided to accept it as a necessary evil, I was again surprised at the way it was conducted at the ward office. The chap seemed highly embarrassed to have to take me out to a cubicle round the back, I would've been happier to have it done out in the open. But it seemed like it had to be hidden, as if it was somehow a shameful thing. That's the only time I ever felt regarded like that in my six years in Japan.

I think it's a big step backward for Japan to revert to this. Perhaps not in tourist number terms, but it gives very much the wrong message in the way foreign visitors are treated.

 

[pipokun]

I know some liberal right groups against the x-ray stuff or else, but it is also some British people who showed a bit brutality against immigrants.
I don't think the violence against immigrants is something in other counries except Japan at all.
The religious cult, AUM, killed people under the name of their religious right.
The far-left terrorist such as Japan Red Army also did same thing under the name of their political right. They are also Japanese.

I don't know how many people care if your government introduces the resident card or family registraion for natives. We just follow the rule if we want to study or work in the country concerned.

And if you think no civil right group in Japan, it is wrong.

 

[Thunderthief]

You know if that's how you feel about it then maybe it would be a better thing for you not to come here. Save a lot of people headaches from having to listen to your xenophobic attitude.

How is complaining about that being xenophobic? Please explain.

 

[KirinMan]

How is complaining about that being xenophobic? Please explain.

No I don't care to explain, you need to figure it out yourself.

 

[Sukotto]

useless lettering on my behalf

xenophobia or ignorant hypocracy?
(no ill intended)


People have a right to self-determination including the right to freedom of association; to form groups, such as ones called countries. These groups will often have social norms some which the group feels so strongly about they call them laws and enforce them with penalties, sometimes via force/violence, but usually with the penalty for violating them being things such as compulsory monetary payments or jail time or perhaps the refusal entry into a particular geographic area, i.e. the territory said social group dominates or controls. Social humility or ostracization are also often informal or even formal penalties.

In case you did not know,
the US also has implemented such laws as required finger printing of immigrants. If such laws do not violate international human rights treaties, then there should be no problem. And if one is opposed to such a law, they should look first to their "home country", especially if they were in violation of basic human RIGHTS (not privilages granted by ANY government) standards or else stay home. But we should not say, "if you come to my country, you have to do X, but if I go to your country I do not have to do X".
Perhaps Thunderthief did not know the US started to require this in recent years. So, sure the world is closing down for just about anything but corporate wealth extraction. Just look let's look in the mirror first.
or something



I do have mixed feelings,
There is also the general idea of being a guest among other people,
which I believe is very important.

There is also the idea restriction of movement. All governments collude to prevent the true freedom of movement via such things as passports and who can and cannot come and go. For example it is illegal for by the US gov't for the "free people" of the US to travel to Cuba. The World Passport is one fun way to make fun of this.
See also Slate article

 

[KirinMan]

In case you did not know,
the US also has implemented such laws as required finger printing of immigrants. If such laws do not violate international human rights treaties, then there should be no problem. And if one is opposed to such a law, they should look first to their "home country", especially if they were in violation of basic human RIGHTS (not privilages granted by ANY government) standards or else stay home. But we should not say, "if you come to my country, you have to do X, but if I go to your country I do not have to do X".
Perhaps Thunderthief did not know the US started to require this in recent years. So, sure the world is closing down for just about anything but corporate wealth extraction. Just look let's look in the mirror first.
or something

I have a hard time believing that he Thunderthief, didn't know this. He comes across as being against it, but doesnt take the time to think about what his own country is doing, as you point out here in your post.

Oh and btw America has been fingerprinting immigrants for quite a number of years now and so has Japan, it isnt anything new.

 

[Thunderthief]

Well they never fingerprinted me so I just assumed they didn't, hum.

Would be easier just to do it for arabs and mexicans in the states, and just southeast asians and arabs in japan.

But I guess we can't have racial profiling can we? I suppose it is more logical to throw everyone in the same pool, if a little more inefficent.

But I don't think the majority should have to pay for the misdeeds of minorities.

 

[Sukotto]

But I don't think the majority should have to pay for the misdeeds of minorities.

Exactly, like why should all Arabs, Muslims, or SouthWest Asians pay and be painted with the same brush for the misdeeds of some minority of religious fundamentalists? Terrorists aren't always foreingers as the Aum Shinrikyo (cult responsible for the 1995 Sarin attacks on the Tokyo subway) and Timothy McVeigh clearly display.


and, to make things interesting according to destertnews.com Utah News:
Nichols says bombing was FBI op as well as the Salt Lake Tribune

 

[KirinMan]

Well they never fingerprinted me so I just assumed they didn't, hum.
Would be easier just to do it for arabs and mexicans in the states, and just southeast asians and arabs in japan.
But I guess we can't have racial profiling can we? I suppose it is more logical to throw everyone in the same pool, if a little more inefficent.
But I don't think the majority should have to pay for the misdeeds of minorities.

Well you weren't an immigrant, nor seeking a residence status, you were only here on a tourist visa. The fingerprinting at airports is recent.

But I don't think the majority should have to pay for the misdeeds of minorities

Your way of thinking is naive, how are you going to tell the difference? You also have contradictory feelings about the entire situation, but are clear only when it affects you personally. Can't have it both ways you know.

 

[Mikawa Ossan]

Fingerprinting is for the alien registration card, if I am not mistaken.

This means that if you come here to Japan on a tourist visa, the issue of fingerprinting will not apply to you. It will only apply if you plan to stay for an extended period of time and you need to register at your local municipality.

When I was fingerprinted for my alien card back in the days when they still had it before, it was done out in the open right at the counter where I did all the other paper work. That was in Nagoya. I suppose each place had a slightly different procedure, because I was surprised to hear about Made of Stone's experience.

 

[Shaka]

I was just about to mention this. I guess this is the same way a lot of people felt when the U.S. introduced something similar. I don't know how necessary it is. I just don't see the country being a huge target for terrorists. The only group that has cause problems there has been Aum, and they're Japanese. I can't see this being a good thing for their tourism industry, either. These sorts of measures generally tend to make people feel less welcome.

But on the other hand, the USA is wanting Canadians to have special drivers license as opposed to a passport in the near future. How is this really different than the USA Alien Registration Card? We are after all, guests in Japan. I just see it as my fault for wanting to go there, and that Japan owes me nothing. I would sooner be mumbling over how the US wants us Canadians to carry passports to cross the boarder despite our shared history. Believe me, the USA is less nice to aliens than the Japanese who were only polite to me. I really enjoyed my time in Japan. They are all very friendly, polite, and sacred people. I found Japan to be a very spiritual place to be.

 

[Chris K]

I don't see this hurting tourism at all.

I give my standard answer to this...if you have nothing to hide, then you should not be against this. It will, in the long run, make everyone safer!

I for one don't mind it. If you haven't done anything wrong then why fear having your fingerprints checked by the officials?

when officialdom never makes mistakes or is no way whatsoever corrupt, ill share your point of view.
Also, though not planning to commit any crime on my next visit, you never know what can happen, so id really rather not get fingerprinted on my way in.
I've found myself in a rather unpleasant situation on my last visit, and had I had to resort to violence to resolve the issue, having fingerprints on file would of been a bit of an issue.

Having said that, it won't put me off going as I already appreciate I will get viewed with suspicion and contempt by some, especially 'officialdom' anyhows.

EDIT: OK slightly aggresive post now Ive re-read. I think its important to state I understand that it's not the general populaces wish to have me fingerprinted, and the general populace do not view me with suspicion or contempt. My previous visit has shown me the exact opposite. 'Officialdom' and law enforcement though does attract more than its fair share of biggots. So as you can see the suspicion and contempt is mutual.