Japan - no longer eastern?

I've been thinking about this for a while, it seems like Japan are no longer an eastern country, as a whole, the Japanese see themselves as Westerners (mindset not geographicly of course), and the Western world seems Japan as part of the club, the wages are level with the high end of the West (up there with the UK and the US, the big boys), and have the second largest economy in the world under the US. They also have copied the US in cities and roads, Japanese streets and roads (not in cities, but just out of cities) tend to be really wide like the US, cities and the fad with building huge buildings (not saying it'd wrong, I like big skylines ) like Tokyo is a copy from the US, there are loads of 4 wheel drive trucks out there, much similar to the US, they dress, as a whole, the same way - western clothes. The big difference is the US have a heritage of "cowboys", fighting red Indians, and Indians living there 200 years before and that is greatly shown in North America (including Canada) a lot of Americans and Canadians in rural areas still consider themselves to be "cowboys", the Native Americans still consider themselves Native Americans and that is shown a lot with Totem poles, etc, all over North America and some still wear Native American dress, but North America is Western and these people are western. Japan on the other hand is just like North America, vastly different heritage and culture, but it's expressed in the same way, Japan's far eastern archtechture is hardly used anymore and is only seen on "heritage sites" or buildings they want to give a Far Eastern look for a tourist attraction or just to look different. A few people still wear traditional Japanese dress, much like a few in North America still dress like cowboys or Native Americans, yet the majority dress like westerners.

So, I conclude that Japan is a Western nation (not geographically) with a Far Eastern heritage, much like North American with a cowboys and indians herirage, still practiced, yet that much.

What do you think?

Posting from the viewpoint of a European, who has not visited to Japan...

I think that you are right that there are many ways in which Japan/Japanese culture becomes 'Westernised' - things like fashion, popularity of food chains like McDonalds, types of buildings, that you mentioned. Also, yes, they are a 'wealthy' country in the sense that most people can afford to have a high standard of living - another similarity with Western Europe and the US that sets them apart from some of the poorer Asian countries.

It seems to me that, with the more ability that becoming a 'well-off country' has given them, Japan is taking more influences from the west (Europe and US). This seems natural, that they choose what appears to be good/attractice/effective/efficient from Western culture and lifestyle. And this naturally changes Japanese culture somewhat, so that 'modern' Japanese culture is very different from the 'traditional' culture.

This happens in all countries to some extent, but it is quite rapid in Japan at the moment.

I can also understand the feeling that (especially with better technology enabling good communications and transportation systems across the world) things become a bit homogenised - for example if you go to Japan and see similar buildings, same food chains, similar products in shops, same sorts of fashions, same type of music, etc. etc.

On the other hand, Japan has its own very old and unique culture, in the same way that Europe does. Both very old cultures, but both very different too. Maybe the two parts of the world are moving forward in the same direction at the moment, but they come from different places. It's not possible to change the past, and Japan will always have its history. I personally think that its ingrained, older culture does affect the way in which Japan assimilates influences from other countries/continents. In the same way that European countries assimilated lots of influences from the US but still retain differences - often rooted in their original cultures.

I don't know if that made much sense.

Without addressing each point individually, I do see a lot of westernization in Japan. I think that this is a mix of things, including the pressures of being a part of the "first world" country club. However, I think that the perception of Japan as a "western" country is partially due to Japan's desire to be seen as separate from the rest of asia.

I think that the analogy with America and cowboys and indians is not very strong. Personally, I don't see that as my heritage, and I think upon those times in terms that are anything but nostalgiac. Also, you would be hard-pressed to find anyone wearing Native American dress these days. I believe that the totem is relegated mostly to the northwest of the US and Canada; most tribes do not use them.

The history of Japanese society runs back much farther than cowboys and indians, so this analogy would be closer to just the Native American's history, and that is a heritage most Americans do not relate to at all.

I think the discussion that Japan is trying to pull away from the rest of asia in terms of culture and economy is interesting, but we should leave the parallels in North America alone--they just don't line up.

thepainneverends... said:

[...] it seems like Japan are no longer an eastern country, as a whole, the Japanese see themselves as Westerners (mindset not geographicly of course)

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No, they don't

thepainneverends... said:

the wages are level with the high end of the West (up there with the UK and the US, the big boys), and have the second largest economy in the world under the US.

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Wages for whom? Wage inequality in Japan is increasing in a way that leaves a great disparity between those people who would be considered afluent, and people who have to sleep in the park at Shinjuku. Japan also doesn't have any way of dealing with the homeless, they had some 3 homeless centers for the entire nation in 1997. Wage inequality is better between upper management and lower workers in Japan, but between the affluent and the poor it's quite large. So in a sense, yes, I'd say that Japan is beging to be like western countries in that in the next 5-10 years there will be an explosion of the homeless, poverty and the working poor.

"People thought that income and wealth distribution in Japan was equal, and maybe that was true 20 years ago," said Toshiaki Tachibanaki, an economics professor at Kyoto University. "But I say that kind of myth should be abandoned. Japan has become a normal country." The disparities that exist now are far less pronounced than they are in the United States and Britain. In the average big Japanese company, the chief executive made 35.7 million yen, or roughly $350,000, according to one estimate, while the Labor Ministry puts the average salaryman's pay at 5.5 million yen, or roughly $56,000. By comparison, total compensation in 1998 for chief executives at the 500 largest American companies averaged about $8 million, according to Graef Crystal, a compensation consultant. ---source here.

Wage inequality between women and men is frankly horendous.

thepainneverends... said:

They also have copied the US in cities and roads, Japanese streets and roads (not in cities, but just out of cities) tend to be really wide like the US, cities and the fad with building huge buildings (not saying it'd wrong, I like big skylines )

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This is why all the roads are quite narrow, the cars are quite small, and they drive on the opposite side of the road from the US??

thepainneverends... said:

[...] like Tokyo is a copy from the US, there are loads of 4 wheel drive trucks out there, much similar to the US, they dress, as a whole, the same way - western clothes.

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How are they supposed to dress? In kimono and yukata carying a sword around? Every time someone in Japan wears a pair of cowboy boots someone says that they are 'copying' the west--- I'm not exactly sure how they are supposed to dress. This is 2005, not the Meiji Restoration era...

thepainneverends... said:

The big difference is the US have a heritage of "cowboys", fighting red Indians, and Indians living there 200 years before and that is greatly shown in North America (including Canada) a lot of Americans and Canadians in rural areas still consider themselves to be "cowboys", the Native Americans still consider themselves Native Americans and that is shown a lot with Totem poles, etc, all over North America and some still wear Native American dress, but North America is Western and these people are western.

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First, I don't see anyone in Japan walking around with a lassoo, so don't worry about Japan usurping 'cowboy chic'... Second, 200 years before what? The subjugation of American Indians began about the time that Christopher Columbus in 1492... Followed by Spaniards and other Europeans who brought diseases which although not fatal in Europeans, highly effected the American Indians, who had no defenses for these things.

Read here for the rest, including frontier warfare, which I think is what you are refering to, which still started in the late 1700's.

thepainneverends... said:

Japan on the other hand is just like North America, vastly different heritage and culture, but it's expressed in the same way[...]

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I'm going to paraphrase Wolfgang Pauli when I say that this statement isn't right. It isn't even wrong...

thepainneverends... said:

Japan's far eastern archtechture is hardly used anymore and is only seen on "heritage sites" or buildings they want to give a Far Eastern look for a tourist attraction or just to look different. A few people still wear traditional Japanese dress, much like a few in North America still dress like cowboys or Native Americans, yet the majority dress like westerners.

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This is because Japan is a modern society, not a pavillion at the Epcot Center. Again, I'm not sure how they are supposed to look, and why, to satisfy whom? You take a similar tact that others have in saying that the Japanese aren't "Japanese enough"... They're all supposed to be quiet and meek, and walk around in kimono bowing politely underneath the falling sakura blossoms... Also, it's not moored in anything factual, as Japan's modern architecture is quite different than western nations, as is it's youth culture, and practically everything else... There simply is not the big connection that you suppose there is. If they seem western because they wear pants, that's a narrow mindset.

thepainneverends... said:

So, I conclude that Japan is a Western nation (not geographically) with a Far Eastern heritage, much like North American with a cowboys and indians herirage, still practiced, yet that much.

What do you think?

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I couldn't disagree with you more. Have you been to Japan?

yukio_michael said:

No, they don't

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It's expressed everywhere, Japanese TV advertisments, billboard advertisments, anime. Westerers are used in advertising wherever they can be used. As for Anime, I have NEVER in my life seen a Japanese or Asian looking Anime charactor. Also, a lot of Japanese people working in the UK(yes, I've met them) have given me the impression they're at least insecure about being Japanese and they're fluent in English and in a diverse country who sees Asian, Middle Eastern, African people more than the see white people everyday.

yukio_michael said:

Wages for whom? Wage inequality in Japan is increasing in a way that leaves a great disparity between those people who would be considered afluent, and people who have to sleep in the park at Shinjuku. Japan also doesn't have any way of dealing with the homeless, they had some 3 homeless centers for the entire nation in 1997. Wage inequality is better between upper management and lower workers in Japan, but between the affluent and the poor it's quite large. So in a sense, yes, I'd say that Japan is beging to be like western countries in that in the next 5-10 years there will be an explosion of the homeless, poverty and the working poor.
"People thought that income and wealth distribution in Japan was equal, and maybe that was true 20 years ago," said Toshiaki Tachibanaki, an economics professor at Kyoto University. "But I say that kind of myth should be abandoned. Japan has become a normal country." The disparities that exist now are far less pronounced than they are in the United States and Britain. In the average big Japanese company, the chief executive made 35.7 million yen, or roughly $350,000, according to one estimate, while the Labor Ministry puts the average salaryman's pay at 5.5 million yen, or roughly $56,000. By comparison, total compensation in 1998 for chief executives at the 500 largest American companies averaged about $8 million, according to Graef Crystal, a compensation consultant. ---source here.
Wage inequality between women and men is frankly horendous.

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I'm taking my data from various average wage sources, it's not like I'm gonna go and ask everyone in the damn country.

yukio_michael said:

This is why all the roads are quite narrow, the cars are quite small, and they drive on the opposite side of the road from the US??

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Small cars? There's a huge amount of pick-up trucks in Japan (another sign of wanting to be Western no less). No, I haven't been to Japan, but from what I've seen from pics, videos, etc, the roads and streets look pretty wide to, ok, not in all areas, but a lot. As for the pick-ups, why do you need a pick-up in a small country, they hardly even drive them, and you have a extensive public transport system?

yukio_michael said:

How are they supposed to dress? In kimono and yukata carying a sword around? Every time someone in Japan wears a pair of cowboy boots someone says that they are 'copying' the west--- I'm not exactly sure how they are supposed to dress. This is 2005, not the Meiji Restoration era...
First, I don't see anyone in Japan walking around with a lassoo, so don't worry about Japan usurping 'cowboy chic'... Second, 200 years before what? The subjugation of American Indians began about the time that Christopher Columbus in 1492... Followed by Spaniards and other Europeans who brought diseases which although not fatal in Europeans, highly effected the American Indians, who had no defenses for these things.
Read here for the rest, including frontier warfare, which I think is what you are refering to, which still started in the late 1700's.
I'm going to paraphrase Wolfgang Pauli when I say that this statement isn't right. It isn't even wrong...

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North American Europeans have porbably remained true to about 50-60% of the way they dressed when they first came (ok, they weren't wearing fashion lables, etc, but they were wearing the basics of which all fashion clothing, etc, is build on). So, why didn't Japan remain to their own style even a bit? Are they insecure of being Japanese? What difference does it make if they don't dress western? Just another display of insecurity if you ask me...

yukio_michael said:

This is because Japan is a modern society, not a pavillion at the Epcot Center. Again, I'm not sure how they are supposed to look, and why, to satisfy whom? You take a similar tact that others have in saying that the Japanese aren't "Japanese enough"... They're all supposed to be quiet and meek, and walk around in kimono bowing politely underneath the falling sakura blossoms... Also, it's not moored in anything factual, as Japan's modern architecture is quite different than western nations, as is it's youth culture, and practically everything else... There simply is not the big connection that you suppose there is. If they seem western because they wear pants, that's a narrow mindset.

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Well, the Japanese have hardly remained true to their archutechture, which gives me the impression they try hard to be Western. Also, no, they should just satisfy themselves, quite rightly, but they're obviously not satisfied with their Japanese culture.

yukio_michael said:

I couldn't disagree with you more. Have you been to Japan?

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I haven't, but I've met a lot of Japanese people, seen pics and videos of Japan a lot, Searched Japan on the Internet a lot, yes, I know a lot of the info is current, but it gives me a damn good impression.

thepainneverends... said:

It's expressed everywhere, Japanese TV advertisments, billboard advertisments, anime. Westerers are used in advertising wherever they can be used. As for Anime, I have NEVER in my life seen a Japanese or Asian looking Anime charactor.

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Anime itself is younger than the wetern animation that "inspired" it's creation/creators. There are some thematic elements to it that have western characteristics, speficially the eyes. Topically however, I think anime is quite different from it's western counter part. Pschologically, I don't know what western infulence on artwork in anime has to do with the Japanese, but I don't think it has anything to do with a need to be 'more western'.

thepainneverends... said:

Also, a lot of Japanese immigrants(yes, I've met them) have given me the impression they're at least insecure about being Japanese and they're fluent in English and in a diverse country who sees Asian, Middle Eastern, African people more than the see white people everyday.

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I think an exagerated sense of nationality and ethnic identity will make people feel out of place when they move away from a place that encourages such an identity.

thepainneverends... said:

I'm taking my data from various average wage sources, it's not like I'm gonna go and ask everyone in the damn country.

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There's a good deal of information from major periodicals out there, some of which are linked to on the Economy sub-forum. Remember the end of the economic bubble in Japan, they are still recovering from it. Also, it might be more related to society rather than economy, but a culture that encourages long hours, and no vacations, and a disparity in earnings for equally working women isn't exactly a model of high standards of living.

thepainneverends... said:

Small cars? There's a huge amount of pick-up trucks in Japan (another sign of wanting to be Western no less).

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Where are you getting the information from for huge, because I've not seen a single one. I don't doubt that someone drives a pickup, but it doesn't mean that they're wanting to be western--- If I drive a Nissan Skyline, does that mean I want to be Japanese?

thepainneverends... said:

No, I haven't been to Japan, but from what I've seen from pics, videos, etc, the roads and streets look pretty wide to, ok, not in all areas, but a lot. As for the pick-ups, why do you need a pick-up in a small country, they hardly even drive them, and you have a extensive public transport system?

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The roads are small, not as small as roads in the UK (where I have seen more SUVs than I have ever seen in Japan), but comparitively to the US, which has rather wide roads, they are enough only for a single car to traverse. Id first question the purchase of SUVs / Hummers etc etc, in the US, where the majority of the time frankly those things are not needed, and moreover, obnoxious eyesores. In Japan there is a very large ammount of people living in a very limited area, there just isn't the space to make that sort of fad practical.

thepainneverends... said:

North American Europeans have porbably remained true to about 50-60% of the way they dressed when they first came (ok, they weren't wearing fashion lables, etc, but they were wearing the basics of which all fashion clothing, etc, is build on).

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Are you saying that people are still wearing buckled hats? Coincidentally, when English colonialists came to America, they didn't bring any looms with them, so for the first few years, the only clothing that they wore was the clothing that they brought with them, which they had to mend when it wore out. In any case, fashion throughout the years in the west is hardly static.

thepainneverends... said:

So, why didn't Japan remain to their own style even a bit? Are they insecure of being Japanese? What difference does it make if they don't dress western? Just another display of insecurity if you ask me...

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You'd be happy to know that there is someone in a kimono on television right now. My girlfriend wears a yukata probably once a week during the summer months. Japanese adults may dress more conservatively, but the youth in Japan have a distinct sense of unique fashion quite different than the west, and I am not refering to gothic lolita, adorn style, etc etc... Regardless Japan has very strong feelings of affinity towards it's traditional clothing which is shown often in commericals, popular culture, music, etcetera.

thepainneverends... said:

Well, the Japanese have hardly remained true to their archutechture, which gives me the impression they try hard to be Western.

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Quite a good deal of their original architecture was firebombed during the war--- much moreso was their damage from fireboming, than there was the two atomic bombs. In any case, I don't suppose you think that the offices of Sony should be in a pagoda do you?

thepainneverends... said:

Also, no, they should just satisfy themselves, quite rightly, but they're obviously not satisfied with their Japanese culture.

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I imagine you are basing this on the abundance of literature, film, music and critical work out their done by the Japanese decrying the Japanese culture? I don't think there is a direct connection between unhapiness and voicing your unhappiness--- suffice it to say, there are lots of people in Japan who don't like their situation, but they wouldn't blame their culture.

thepainneverends... said:

I haven't, but I've met a lot of Japanese people, seen pics and videos of Japan a lot, Searched Japan on the Internet a lot, yes, I know a lot of the info is current, but it gives me a damn good impression.

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It's sounds to me like you're trying to convince yourself that it's not a place worthy of visiting, but I think you should if only to give yourself information that goes beyond what you read second hand.

thepainneverends said:

Also, a lot of Japanese people working in the UK(yes, I've met them) have given me the impression they're at least insecure about being Japanese and they're fluent in English and in a diverse country who sees Asian, Middle Eastern, African people more than the see white people everyday.

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As you met Japanese people working in the UK, that indicates that they are interested in other cultures (specifically, European cultures). I mean, I've read a lot on this forum about the Japanese people viewing foreigners in Japan very much as 'outsiders' and being proud of their own country and Japaneseness. But, I would assume that Japanese who visit and work in Europe have at least some interest in the European culture, and that's why they went there - unless there is another motive such as they married a European. For example, my ex was Japanese, but had lived for several years in Europe and was very what you might call 'Westernized' in many ways - but (after thinking) I wasn't surprised by this because I knew that he has a lot of interest in different cultures.

What I'm clumsily trying to say is that there's a good chance the Japanese people you meet in the UK would be more 'Westernized' than those who don't travel in Europe or the US, simply by the fact that they are there at all. I'm sure that if you go to Japan, you can meet a lot of people who are less 'Westernized', most especially the older generation (also there are proportionally a lot of older people in Japan).

As for the pick-ups, why do you need a pick-up in a small country, they hardly even drive them, and you have a extensive public transport system?

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The same reason people drive pick-ups in the UK, I guess. <<
What about people who live and work in the countryside, and/or who do jobs that involve carting large things around? Not all of Japan is city.
I don't know about Japan's public transport system from personal knowledge, but the UK is also a small country with what is supposed to be a good public transport system *hollow laugh* and I'd rather have a pick-up any day.
Seriously, have you tried carrying a tree on a train?

So, why didn't Japan remain to their own style even a bit? Are they insecure of being Japanese? What difference does it make if they don't dress western? Just another display of insecurity if you ask me...

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Well, the Japanese have hardly remained true to their archutechture, which gives me the impression they try hard to be Western.

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There are also issues of practicality. Kimono are difficult to put on properly and difficult to move in. I'm sure the adoption of Western styles of dress was as much a question of convenience as anything else. As Yukio Michael says, his girlfriend wears a yukata once a week during the summer - I would guess because a yukata is much easier to wear than a kimono, and is light and cool to wear - making it practical for the summer time.

The same goes for architecture. Yukio Michael's point about the buildings destroyed during the war is a good one (such as some of the buildings in London, too). But also the practicality of construction, as knowledge of architecture improves. Especially as Japan suffers quite a lot from earthquakes, so needs to use the best of the modern technology to construct buildings that best withstand earthquakes.

yukio_michael said:

Pschologically, I don't know what western infulence on artwork in anime has to do with the Japanese, but I don't think it has anything to do with a need to be 'more western'.

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Also, European artists, particularly at the end of the 19th and beginning of the 20th century, were influenced by Japanese art, which was new to them. The influences work both ways. There is a fashion in England for an 'East Asian' look, in styling (a belief that they have more simplicity) and also I've seen plenty of fabrics (clothes, curtains, soft furnishing fabrics) printed in hanzi (is that the correct name for Chinese character?) - not Japanese, I know, but example of the 'Eastern look'. And, of course, when tourists go to Japan, they often want to hire kimono, walk around and even pretend to be geisha!

As in my first post, I'm not meaning to argue with you, because of course there are signs Japan becomes more 'Westernized'. But I don't think that means they lose their traditional culture. I think it's very firmly rooted, just like the French culture or the Latvian culture. It's just a natural outcome of better communications hence more influences spreading over the whole world.

Economic prosperity and material goods have little to do with culture and mindset. For instance, we you are in Shanghai, you could be forgiven to think that you are in London or New York (never had that feeling in Japan).

I'd say that culturally the USA is halfway between Europe and Japan, and increasingly going toward Japan and becoming more different from Europe (while Japan is increasingly becoming more like the USA). But Japan is still much closer culturally to Korea and China than to any Western country. So if Japan is Western, then so are Korea and China. The whole meaning of Eastern and Western culture would then disappear (except if "Eastern" means India )

Maciamo said:

Economic prosperity and material goods have little to do with culture and mindset. For instance, we you are in Shanghai, you could be forgiven to think that you are in London or New York (never had that feeling in Japan).

I'd say that culturally the USA is halfway between Europe and Japan, and increasingly going toward Japan and becoming more different from Europe (while Japan is increasingly becoming more like the USA). But Japan is still much closer culturally to Korea and China than to any Western country. So if Japan is Western, then so are Korea and China. The whole meaning of Eastern and Western culture would then disappear (except if "Eastern" means India )

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This is going on to a completely new country, but South Korea is starting to follow the US (not so much as Japan) and China certainly are in the built-up areas (some of the streets and roads in China are bigger than the US) but in rural and maybe some not so rural areas, China is still very much Chinese.

Now let's go back a bit into history and we won't be surprised to find that Japan has a history of "copying" others who she considered to be superior than Japanese. For example, China was a role model for Japan during the Tong Dynasty (btw, kimono was actually a modification of Chinese female dress worn during that dynasty). It's not until the 18th century when Japan was exposed for the first time the western world. Chinese culture and technologies during that time pales in comparison to the west and with her "copying" nature, Japan did not hesitate to dump the east ideologies and feverously learning everything western. At the same time the Chinese was in denial of the fact that western powers are far more superior than her and as a result resisting reform (This is still true to some degree in the present day).

So back to the question: Is Japan no longer an eastern country? From my point of view, I say Japan is a hybrid of east and west. I am really interested to see what will happen when Japan has caught up or even surpass the USA in both science and culture. Will Japan take on the "role model" role or will she simply find another "superior" culture to adapt to….