Japan China dispute over islands.

[qwertyu]

Eisuke is one scary dude. The "facts" he posted are so far off - Taiwan and nearby islands a separate country?? - one needs to rethink the concept of brainwashing. Is it the exclusive franchise of "rogue" states like Iran, Russsia, China and N. Korea? What about Americans who believe Iraq was responsible for 9/11? What about the Japanese like Koizumi who rewrite WWII history and support the naked aggression against Iraqi? There's no excuse for people who are connected to the internet to be so ignorant because they can find the answer from credible sources.

 

[Tonysoong]

Fantastic post by Bossel -

For me, this sums it up (from the first of Bossel's links)

"They had little value until offshore oil exploration began in the 1970s..."

Don't let all the right-wing nationalists fool you. You see a lot of flag burning and 50 or so people yelling at the embassy in Beijing, but if you listen close, both the Japanese and Chinese govenments are trying to make it as much of a non-issue as possible (that some Chinese people were arrested is the only reason this is even in the news again) while not giving any ground on their claims.

Just as a bit of advice - if you want to go around burning flags, you will look a bit less childish if you take the trouble to get cotton flags. They tear easier and burn nicer than polyester ones (if you have seen news footage recently you will know what I mean).

You are poor as a critical reader in misunderstanding the neutralised stance of Bossel. Read it again before leaping at your present comments, pal.

 

[Tonysoong]

United States returned Okinotorishima to Japan along with other Ogasawara islands in 1968. This is an excellent summary by Time Magazine.Island Preservation Activity

Expansionism means you want more than you are entitled, which is dangerously foolish. China is gowing into a mutually profitable partner to the rest of the world, but a rival to whoever deserves the title of China's hostile rival--- just a tip, pal.

 

[Iron Chef]

I know this is a sensitive matter for a lot of people so just a friendly reminder for everyone to stay on-topic please without resorting to ganging up on any particular person or their point of view. This is an interesting debate, let's keep it that way without getting too personal so everyone can feel free to express their opinion. Thanks!

 

[Tonysoong]

To Wang: I have to be polite in this forum,So I have only one sentence for you:Whether China attack TaiWan depends on TaiWan,splittism =war.

Secessionism does not equate war. The most rational way of reunification is the two sides reunifying on equal basis. Any way, Taiwan is a democracy.

This may not be the proper occasion for discussion of Taiwan-Mainland relationship though.

 

[Tonysoong]

I am not dreaming it is a clear fact that it is Japanese.

Calm down, gentlemen, this is a forum where i think nobody expects to see a street fight.

 

[lexico]

Secessionism does not equate war. The most rational way of reunification is the two sides reunifying on equal basis. Any way, Taiwan is a democracy.

This may not be the proper occasion for discussion of Taiwan-Mainland relationship though.

I would love to see that happen. I have (had) friends and teachers from both sides, so...

And while we're at it, let's not forget the Original Taiwanese ﾃ､iﾃ?sﾅ陳ｴﾂ住窶督ｯ窶伉ｰ who's suffered so much by so many, esp. during the 50 yr colonial rule.
Has Japan ever thanked them and apologized to them, "Thank you for letting us use your land, air, sea, and the people for 50 yrs. We are sorry for all the hurt we've given you, including the horrible acts of taking comfort women and dragging men to war which was not yours, and for humiliating you after the war by our non-repentance" ?

 

[Tonysoong]

.

China stop your land claim stealing. China already has very much land so stop trying to steal even more land with those ridiculous claims, you're just a bunch of expansionistic imperialists. You already invaded Tibet and Xinjiang that is actually Eastern Turkestan, what is next? You want to claim Siberia because of the oil reserves too?
China is a ULTRA Overpopulated country that sucks up very much resources like a ever growing BLACK HOLE.

Wang:

Cursing and abusing perhaps won't stop anyone claiming anything that he thinks is his own.

You need behave yourself if you want your words to carry any weight--- don't curse or abuse -- to be a gentleman or lady, which i think your parents and teachers must have told you.

 

[Tonysoong]

I And while we're at it, let's not forget the Original Taiwanese ﾃ､iﾃ?sﾅ陳ｴﾂ住窶督ｯ窶伉ｰ who's suffered so much by so many, esp. during the 50 yr colonial rule.
Has Japan ever thanked them and apologized to them, "Thank you for letting us use your land, air, sea, and the people for 50 yrs. We are sorry for all the hurt we've given you, including the horrible acts of taking comfort women and dragging men to war which was not yours, and for humiliating you after the war by our non-repentance" ?

Japan (or perhaps some Japanese to be more exact) may have always been worried by its small size, so let's try to understand them and help them realize what is the proper way for them to carry around.

But, Lexico, Is South Korea, which has been much more pacific-orientated, any bit larger than Japan? Oh, perhaps the Korean people with their pacific-orientation are in a better position to help enlighten some of our Japanese neighbors.

 

[Wang]

Wang:

Cursing and abusing perhaps won't stop anyone claiming anything that he thinks is his own.

You need behave yourself if you want your words to carry any weight--- don't curse or abuse -- to be a gentleman or lady, which i think your parents and teachers must have told you.

That reply was for a other guy. Why are you digging up old posts.

Japan (or perhaps some Japanese to be more exact) may have always been worried by its small size

Japan is not a small country.

Japan is slightly smaller than California, the third largest state in the USA. Japan is bigger than (unified) Germany, and the U.K. it is 1,7 times the size of North and South Korea combined, 10 times the size of Taiwan and 350 times the size of Hong Kong. (source: "1994 Britannica Book of the Year".)

On a world map, Japan seems a small nation, dwarfed by China and Russia with North America facing over the vast Pacific, but Japan is larger in land mass (145,869 sq. mi/377,835 sq. km) than many of the world's 180 countries, including the United Kingdom and Italy.

http://www.indiana.edu/~japan/Digests/geo.html

 

[lexico]

Japan (or perhaps some Japanese to be more exact) may have always been worried by its small size, so let's try to understand them and help them realize what is the proper way for them to carry around.

Well, size doesn't matter. It's a person, and an equal in the international setting, right ?

But, Lexico, Is South Korea, which has been much more pacific-orientated, any bit larger than Japan?

O, we're just a small country, not even as big as Japan, and the population is also perhaps somewhere near 60% of that of Japan ?

Oh, perhaps the Korean people with their pacific-orientation are in a better position to help enlighten some of our Japanese neighbors.

I never thought of it that way. Perhaps there are great possiblities that Korea and Japan can help each other once the uncomfortable *remainders of Old Japan* is cleared out of the way. I'm guessing (about the two positive articles that Wang posted yesterday and today) that Kim Dae Jung's mild populatiry with the Japanese may have influenced to some degree the softening of the hard-liner rhetoric. But mostly (from Machiavellian point of view) that the tough, serious response from PRC people and gov't (of course S. Korea as usual) has had a positive effect in the signs of change. There was a passage from a book written by one Japanese-Korean Mizuno Shunpei ﾂ絶?ｦ窶禿ｬﾂ俊窶｢ﾂｽ;

"To deal with the Japanese well, diplomacy alone might not be enough.
One must be ready to play hard ball." (paraphrase)

I tend to agree. Do you honestly think that Japan would have been so malleable to the wishes of the US if US lacked the military superiority ? Carrot and stick, I always say. As for Japan, more stick, but not to forget the carrot. Just my impression. I hope nobody gets offended by my opinion. Different measures for different times, I guess.

 

[lexico]

That reply was for a other guy. Why are you digging up old posts.

Don't take it too seriously, Wang. Criticism can be one sign of brotherly-love. Whether you like Tony or not really doesn't matter. Sorry for the unwarranted comment.

 

[Tonysoong]

Well, size doesn't matter. It's a person, and an equal in the international setting, right ?
O, we're just a small country, not even as big as Japan, and the population is also perhaps somewhere near 60% of that of Japan ? I never thought of it that way. Perhaps there are great possiblities that Korea and Japan can help each other once the uncomfortable *remainders of Old Japan* is cleared out of the way. I'm guessing (about the two positive articles that Wang posted yesterday and today) that Kim Dae Jung's mild populatiry with the Japanese may have influenced to some degree the softening of the hard-liner rhetoric. But mostly (from Machiavellian point of view) that the tough, serious response from PRC people and gov't (of course S. Korea as usual) has had a positive effect in the signs of change. There was a passage from a book written by one Japanese-Korean Mizuno Shunpei ﾂ絶?ｦ窶禿ｬﾂ俊窶｢ﾂｽ;

"To deal with the Japanese well, diplomacy alone might not be enough.
One must be ready to play hard ball." (paraphrase)

I tend to agree. Do you honestly think that Japan would have been so malleable to the wishes of the US if US lacked the military superiority ? Carrot and stick, I always say. As for Japan, more stick, but not to forget the carrot. Just my impression. I hope nobody gets offended by my opinion. Different measures for different times, I guess.

Good point, Lexico, But i still doubt whether they have digested the American carrots and whether sticks can knock reason and morality into the head of a someone.

I don't mean any offense to any individual though

 

[lexico]

Good point, Lexico, But i still doubt whether they have digested the American carrots and whether sticks can knock reason and morality into the head of a someone.

I don't mean any offense to any individual though

O, needless to say they haven't.
Without a philosophical understanding of the baisic social fabic woven with trust and reciprocity, no lesson's been learned at all.
But there's always hope unless humanity is headed for the dumps.
Until then, carrots and sticks it is !
It means we still want to have hope. ;-)

 

[Tonysoong]

Yes, I do hope all humanity can work together to fight against any destruction of our hope, yet not dropping our stick in case we need its application some day!

 

[supersugar]

[MP=0,0,true]http://140.136.121.244/mid/flag.mp3 [/MP]

:? :? :? Can't link mp3?

 

[Wang]

Lol. Here you can download the Taiwanese Anthem (orchestrated). http://www.national-anthems.net/web/find.webpage?from=anthems&what=taiwan_national&id=TW




This is also a good flag.

 

[supersugar]

Taiwan isn't a nation yet. That's ROC Anthem. The group seek independent in taiwan aren't surpass 45%. And your flag looks simplely ugly.

 

[Wang]

Taiwan isn't a nation yet.

Yes not yet but Taiwan will become a officially independent nation.

I think the flag looks quite good.

Survey backs sovereign and independent Taiwan

POST-ELECTION POLL: In the wake of US President Bush's re-election, respondents were asked about US-Taiwan relations, US-China ties and cross-strait links
By Joy Su
STAFF REPORTER
Tuesday, Nov 09, 2004,Page 3

Advertising Over 70 percent of respondents in a recent opinion poll conducted by the Taiwan Thinktank say Taiwan is a sovereign and independent nation.
The survey results, released yesterday, indicate 14.5 percent of those polled believe Taiwan is not a sovereign independent nation, while 2.9 percent felt it was hard to say, and another 10 percent did not know.

"The opinions of the people of Taiwan play an important role in the US-Taiwan-China triangular relationship ? The question now is how to handle a new Taiwan, a Taiwan with new problems and new opinions," said Lai I-chung (ﾃｻﾂｮﾅ党窶吮?ｰ), director of foreign policy studies at the think tank.

The survey focused on reaction to US President George W. Bush's re-election, its impact on cross-strait relations and expectations for the next four years. The poll surveyed 1,076 people over the age of 20 nationwide in telephone interviews last Thursday and Friday.

According to the think tank, the poll's results are within a 95 percent confidence index with a standard deviation of 3.04.

Survey backs sovereign and independent Taiwan - Taipei Times

 

[supersugar]

Your so called Over 70 percent are to recognize ROC is a sovereign and independent nation,not your dream taiwan republic. Don't garble, ok? Do remember taiwan is a province of ROC, will never become a nation.

 

[Wang]

Your so called Over 70 percent are to recognize ROC is a sovereign and independent nation,not your dream taiwan republic. Don't garble, ok? Do remember taiwan is a province of ROC, will never become a nation.

I don't think so. I believe freedom will prevail!

 

[Tonysoong]

Taiwan is still ROC, I like that idea (or fact). If we mainland Chinese had another chance to make a choice, I believe an overwhelming majority of us would doubtlessly choose ROC rejecting PRC. History played a joke on the Chinese. We blindly allowed communism to take advantage of us and expelled a democratic-orientated political party (KMT) and its government.

BTW, I, and a number of friends around me hold that the communist takeover in China partly resulted from Japanese invasion of China ---- the CCP took advantage of the Japanese invasion to develop its military power when KMT was fighting the Japanese invaders.

 

[supersugar]

I don't think so. I believe freedom will prevail!

Yes, no one could reject the people's desire. Taiwan and the rest of China will reunited soon after mainland become democracy,too.

 

[supersugar]

Taiwan is still ROC, I like that idea (or fact). If we mainland Chinese had another chance to make a choice, I believe an overwhelming majority of us would doubtlessly choose ROC rejecting PRC. History played a joke on the Chinese. We blindly allowed communism to take advantage of us and expelled a democratic-orientated political party (KMT) and its government.

BTW, I, and a number of friends around me hold that the communist takeover in China partly resulted from Japanese invasion of China ---- the CCP took advantage of the Japanese invasion to develop its military power when KMT was fighting the Japanese invaders.

In fact to let the ccp rule China was Japan's polt even before it surrender. Like this it could instead China to become the most important ally of US and the front line of defending communist expanding.

 

[Wang]

Yes, no one could reject the people's desire. Taiwan and the rest of China will reunited soon after mainland become democracy,too.

When the People's Republic of China becomes a democracy then Taiwanese, Tibetans, Mongols, Uygurs etc can all more easily vote if they want to become a independent nation. All those people have their right to self-determination.