Japan China dispute over islands.
- Thread starter Gaki
- Start date
bossel
後輩
- 28 Sep 2003
- 1,485
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Are we solving problems here? I thought, this is just a discussion forum. If you don't like what I write there is an easy way out of it: don't read it!sima_yi said:
BTW, it's rather strange to bring up this thread again where I didn't post for a month & tell me to shut up. That's really more like an invitation to post again.
bossel
後輩
- 28 Sep 2003
- 1,485
- 45
What I wrote:sima_yi said:
"I don't really care if there is one big chunk or several smaller chunks. What I'm all for is the choice of the people. If Taiwanese want to be separated, then be it."
Maybe you should go to one of your teachers & let him explain to you what the above actually means.
shiroma
先輩
- 1 Mar 2004
- 481
- 18
shiroma
先輩
- 1 Mar 2004
- 481
- 18
Mystery Sub Sparks Japan Alert (BBC)
Suspected Chinese Nuclear Sub Enters Japanese Waters (Kyodo)
More articles: 1 2 3
MSDF P3C Orion
Suspected Chinese Nuclear Sub Enters Japanese Waters (Kyodo)
More articles: 1 2 3
MSDF P3C Orion
Last edited:
shiroma
先輩
- 1 Mar 2004
- 481
- 18
Chinese anti-Japan Activists Seek Apology from Police
Interesting, while it is nothing but a domestic issue inside the Dynasty.
Interesting, while it is nothing but a domestic issue inside the Dynasty.
Eisuke
先輩
- 28 Nov 2003
- 292
- 6
Those islands officially belong to Japan period. "The Senkaku Islands are Japan's territory and there is no doubt about it historically and under international laws," Chief Cabinet Secretary Yasuo Fukuda said. The United States administered them after World War II, but turned them over to Japan in 1972.
How did the island become part of japan? when? I don't think it's logical for USA to give the island to anyone since it was officially belong to chinese for a long long period. I think it's around 1403+ in ming dynasty. Almost 600 years.
It was forced to cession to japan together with taiwan after chinese lost the War. Then took controled by Amercian lately in wwII. I think it's logical and reasonable to give it back to taiwan instead of the invader.
If you say the one who lately controled the island is the owner of it then it should be usa. If you will say the original owner of the island has the rights over the island. then it should be chinese. and most people live there are immigrants from china in the early time. non japanese.
It was forced to cession to japan together with taiwan after chinese lost the War. Then took controled by Amercian lately in wwII. I think it's logical and reasonable to give it back to taiwan instead of the invader.
If you say the one who lately controled the island is the owner of it then it should be usa. If you will say the original owner of the island has the rights over the island. then it should be chinese. and most people live there are immigrants from china in the early time. non japanese.
Eisuke
先輩
- 28 Nov 2003
- 292
- 6
kiuyiw said:
It was not until a survey in 1968 found potential oil fields on the East China Sea that both Chinas claimed sovereignty over the islands. The ROC claimed them for the first time on June 11, 1971, which was followed by the PRC on December 30.
China claims that she had already ruled these islands before Japan controlled them while Japan claims that they were terra nullius. 'Terra nullius' is a Latin expression meaning "empty land" or "no man's land".
These islands were on the sea route between Okinawa Mainland and Fujian. Chinese envoys to the Ryukyu Kingdom and, in far higher frequency, Okinawan ships passed by them.
China claims that these islands were within Ming's sea-defense area and belonged to Taiwan. The Chinese claimed that the islands were first mentioned in literature in 1372. The islands were first documented during the Ming Dynasty, by royal visitors from Ming China to the Ryukyu Kingdom at the current Okinawa prefecture of Japan. The documentation mentions, "When crossing the sea, we can saw black ocean? current underneath. The guide said, after passing this black current, they will leave the boundary of China. At this stage, we can see a series of islands that cannot be seen in the return trip." During the Qing Dynasty, when the ex-Ming Dynasty general Zheng Jing was defeated, Taiwan and its surrounding islands became under the control of the Qing. The islands were used only as a landmark for the trip to Ryukyu kingdoms. Some Chinese insist that during the Cixi era, the islands were presented as a gift to a mandarin "for the purpose of collecting herbs on the islands," but its credibility is questioned.
Japanese scholars claims that neither China nor Okinawa had recognition of sovereignty over the uninhabited islands so that Chinese documents only prove that Kumejima, the first inhabited island the Chinese met, belonged to Okinawa. Japanese scholars show that the History of Ming, the official history book of the Ming Dynasty compiled during the Qing period, classifies Taiwan and surrounding island to "foreign countries". They also bring official Chinese records about Taiwan or Fujian that never mention to these islands. Anyway, it is certain that no one effectively controlled them.
Japan's formal incorporation and the Treaty of Shimonoseki
After the Meiji Restoration , the Japanese Government conducted surveys of the islands from 1885 that confirmed for her that these uninhabited islands had no trace of having been under the control of China. Thus Japan decided to erect a marker on the islands to formally incorporate them in a Cabinet Decision on 14 January 1895. Among these islands, four islands were borrowed and developed by the Koga family.
Today China does not approve Japan's formal incorporation and claims that it is the Treaty of Shimonoseki on April 17, 1895 that separated the islands from China although the treaty lacks the explicit mention to them. Thus China claims that they should have been "returned" after World War II, under provisions of the Cairo Declaration, Potsdam Proclamation, and Article 2 of the San Francisco Treaty. However, in her testimonial in 1920 the ROC admitted that they belonged to the Yaeyama District of Okinawa Prefecture.
U.S. occupation
After World War II, the islands came under the U.S. occupation as part of Okinawa. The U.S. and the Ryukyu Government under the U.S. occupation explicitly ruled these island, and the U.S. navy used Kuba-jima and Taisho-jima as maneuver areas. In 1972 the islands were returned from the U.S. to Japan as part of Okinawa.
Japanese scholars point out that it was not so difficult for the ROC to occupy these island in 1945 because she had already incorporated Taiwan and the surrounding islands two months before the U.S. military occupation extended to Yaeyama Islands. Thus they claim that this proves her lack of willingness to own the islands. They also bring official Chinese publications that show the island as part of Okinawa.
The country who controls these islands the latest is Japan.
The people living there are already mixed with Japanese and therefore became Japanese people ethnically and officially.
um. I didn't know all of that before. thank you for the explain.
But I think the Treaty of Shimonoseki is just some kind of invasion too. since Japan has lost the wwII it should return all the land which it conquered during wwII including manchuria and some other part of the land which officially belong to taiwan before WWII.
yes there are some japanese moved to the island lately but the main nationality there is still chinese. They MIXED with japanese but doesn't means they become japanese ethnically.
But I think the Treaty of Shimonoseki is just some kind of invasion too. since Japan has lost the wwII it should return all the land which it conquered during wwII including manchuria and some other part of the land which officially belong to taiwan before WWII.
yes there are some japanese moved to the island lately but the main nationality there is still chinese. They MIXED with japanese but doesn't means they become japanese ethnically.
Fishing Island belongs to China!!!! 钓鱼岛是属于中国的！！！！
Fishing Island belongs to China!!!! 钓鱼岛是属于中国的！！！！
Fishing Island belongs to China!!!! 钓鱼岛是属于中国的！！！！
Fishing Island belongs to China!!!! 钓鱼岛是属于中国的！！！！
Fishing Island belongs to China!!!! 钓鱼岛是属于中国的！！！！
Fishing Island belongs to China!!!! 钓鱼岛是属于中国的！！！！
Fishing Island belongs to China!!!! 钓鱼岛是属于中国的！！！！
Fishing Island belongs to China!!!! 钓鱼岛是属于中国的！！！！
Fishing Island belongs to China!!!! 钓鱼岛是属于中国的！！！！
Fishing Island belongs to China!!!! 钓鱼岛是属于中国的！！！！
Fishing Island belongs to China!!!! 钓鱼岛是属于中国的！！！！
Fishing Island belongs to China!!!! 钓鱼岛是属于中国的！！！！
Fishing Island belongs to China!!!! 钓鱼岛是属于中国的！！！！
Fishing Island belongs to China!!!! 钓鱼岛是属于中国的！！！！
Fishing Island belongs to China!!!! 钓鱼岛是属于中国的！！！！
Fishing Island belongs to China!!!! 钓鱼岛是属于中国的！！！！
Fishing Island belongs to China!!!! 钓鱼岛是属于中国的！！！！
Fishing Island belongs to China!!!! 钓鱼岛是属于中国的！！！！
Fishing Island belongs to China!!!! 钓鱼岛是属于中国的！！！！
Fishing Island belongs to China!!!! 钓鱼岛是属于中国的！！！！
Fishing Island belongs to China!!!! 钓鱼岛是属于中国的！！！！
Fishing Island belongs to China!!!! 钓鱼岛是属于中国的！！！！
Fishing Island belongs to China!!!! 钓鱼岛是属于中国的！！！！
shiroma
先輩
- 1 Mar 2004
- 481
- 18
- 14 Apr 2005
- 10
- 0
The senkaku is mine
this is a part of the evidence.
this is a part of the evidence.
qwertyu
Underdogs Unite!
- 5 May 2005
- 143
- 14
First of all, forget this naive "brother" Taiwan nonsense. There is just no way for any sane government of China to allow Taiwanese secession because it would be the worst political/tactical blunder in recent history. An "independent" Taiwan will immediately become a second Guam for US and Japanese military bases. China will be committing naval suicide, effectively giving up its entire Eastern sea coast. It can never, ever safe-guard itself from a naval attack for the forseeable future.
I guess if the US and Japan have not been openly weighing a Pacific confrontation with China, China might have less reasons to want to pull Taiwan in closer, but there you have it.
The more Taiwanese like Wang profess their hatred towards China and their allegiance to Japan, the more China will be convinced that Taiwan will be a dangerous liability to its security.
I guess if the US and Japan have not been openly weighing a Pacific confrontation with China, China might have less reasons to want to pull Taiwan in closer, but there you have it.
The more Taiwanese like Wang profess their hatred towards China and their allegiance to Japan, the more China will be convinced that Taiwan will be a dangerous liability to its security.
qwertyu
Underdogs Unite!
- 5 May 2005
- 143
- 14
Having lived in HK, I don't fully trust the British, who waged the infamous Opium War and colonised huge stretches of Asia, do you? Here are some other Japanese historians' take on the Senkaku/Diaoyu Islands:
http://japanfocus.org/157.html
Japanese Militarism & Diaoyutai (Senkaku) Island - A Japanese Historian's View
"The Diaoyu Islands are China's irredenta, an area that historically belonged to China but is currently under Japanese control (to adapt the dictionary definition of the word). There is a powerful current of irredentism concerning these islands among Chinese people not only in China proper, but all over the world. Many Chinese feel that China was unjustly deprived of the Diaoyu Islands and that they should be a rightful part of Chinese territory.
Major support for Chinese irredentism comes from the history of relations between Imperial China (Ming and Qing) and the Ryukyu Kingdom. The acknowledged boundary between China and Ryukyu until the demise of the Ryukyu Kingdom was somewhere in the sea east and south of the Diaoyu Islands (west and north of the Ryukyu Islands). This Sino-Ryukyuan boundary became a Sino-Japanese boundary when Japan took over Ryukyu and proclaimed it Okinawa Prefecture in 1879. After the incorporation of Ryukyu in the empire of Japan, the Japanese government turned its attention to other small islands in the surrounding seas. In 1885, Tokyo declared sovereignty over the North and South Ufuagarijima (today's Daito) Islands and placed them under the jurisdiction of Okinawa Prefecture. About this time, the Japanese-appointed governor of Okinawa petitioned Tokyo for the take-over of the Diaoyu Islands. (Another uninhabited island to the south of the Daito Islands was added to the Daito group as Okino Daitojima in 1900.) The Japanese government hesitated, but decided to incorporate the Diaoyu Islands in Japanese territory in January 1895 in the midst of the Sino-Japanese War, which ended with the Treaty of Shimonoseki in November of the same year. The Treaty stipulates, among other things, that China cedes to Japan "the island of Formosa together with all islands appertaining or belonging to said island of Formosa" [Article II{b}]. Whether the Diaoyu Islands, which were not called Senkaku by Japan until 1900, are implied in "islands appertaining or belonging to said island of Formosa" is an unsettled question. China's answer is affirmative, while Japan insists that these islands were terra nullius when Japan took over. Japan justifies its position by the international law of how terra nullius becomes a specific state's territory. The legality of the Japanese occupation of the Diaoyu Islands on January 14, 1895 as well as the question of how these islands figured in the negotiation for the Treaty of Shimonseki deserves renewed attention."
First of all, it was unconscionable for the Americans [hey, you Tibetan independence do-gooders listen up] to "return" Ryukyu/Okinawa to Japan, an independent kingdom annexed by Japan in 1874, without ever consulting with the Okinawans if they would prefer independence in lieu of colonisation. Secondly, they mistakenly included the Diayus/Senkakus into Okinawa, which were historically marked [back through Ming records] as being on the continental's [China's] side of the territorial sea boundary. The Americans can't give away what has never been theirs in the first place. Japan's sea boundaries are greatly expanded by claiming the Diaoyus/Senkakus as well as Dokto and Kuriles, which have devastating impact on its neighbours. By awarding Japan the spoils of it's imperial wars, aren't we conceding that might makes right?
http://japanfocus.org/157.html
Japanese Militarism & Diaoyutai (Senkaku) Island - A Japanese Historian's View
"The Diaoyu Islands are China's irredenta, an area that historically belonged to China but is currently under Japanese control (to adapt the dictionary definition of the word). There is a powerful current of irredentism concerning these islands among Chinese people not only in China proper, but all over the world. Many Chinese feel that China was unjustly deprived of the Diaoyu Islands and that they should be a rightful part of Chinese territory.
Major support for Chinese irredentism comes from the history of relations between Imperial China (Ming and Qing) and the Ryukyu Kingdom. The acknowledged boundary between China and Ryukyu until the demise of the Ryukyu Kingdom was somewhere in the sea east and south of the Diaoyu Islands (west and north of the Ryukyu Islands). This Sino-Ryukyuan boundary became a Sino-Japanese boundary when Japan took over Ryukyu and proclaimed it Okinawa Prefecture in 1879. After the incorporation of Ryukyu in the empire of Japan, the Japanese government turned its attention to other small islands in the surrounding seas. In 1885, Tokyo declared sovereignty over the North and South Ufuagarijima (today's Daito) Islands and placed them under the jurisdiction of Okinawa Prefecture. About this time, the Japanese-appointed governor of Okinawa petitioned Tokyo for the take-over of the Diaoyu Islands. (Another uninhabited island to the south of the Daito Islands was added to the Daito group as Okino Daitojima in 1900.) The Japanese government hesitated, but decided to incorporate the Diaoyu Islands in Japanese territory in January 1895 in the midst of the Sino-Japanese War, which ended with the Treaty of Shimonoseki in November of the same year. The Treaty stipulates, among other things, that China cedes to Japan "the island of Formosa together with all islands appertaining or belonging to said island of Formosa" [Article II{b}]. Whether the Diaoyu Islands, which were not called Senkaku by Japan until 1900, are implied in "islands appertaining or belonging to said island of Formosa" is an unsettled question. China's answer is affirmative, while Japan insists that these islands were terra nullius when Japan took over. Japan justifies its position by the international law of how terra nullius becomes a specific state's territory. The legality of the Japanese occupation of the Diaoyu Islands on January 14, 1895 as well as the question of how these islands figured in the negotiation for the Treaty of Shimonseki deserves renewed attention."
First of all, it was unconscionable for the Americans [hey, you Tibetan independence do-gooders listen up] to "return" Ryukyu/Okinawa to Japan, an independent kingdom annexed by Japan in 1874, without ever consulting with the Okinawans if they would prefer independence in lieu of colonisation. Secondly, they mistakenly included the Diayus/Senkakus into Okinawa, which were historically marked [back through Ming records] as being on the continental's [China's] side of the territorial sea boundary. The Americans can't give away what has never been theirs in the first place. Japan's sea boundaries are greatly expanded by claiming the Diaoyus/Senkakus as well as Dokto and Kuriles, which have devastating impact on its neighbours. By awarding Japan the spoils of it's imperial wars, aren't we conceding that might makes right?
qwertyu
Underdogs Unite!
- 5 May 2005
- 143
- 14
There are NO inhabitants on Diaoyu/Senkaku, period. It is uninhabitable, being a few craggy rocks with no infrastructure. Japanese "administration" consists entirely of the hefty investment of putting up a 3 ft lighthouse on one of these rocks.
Ha, I got a Chinese friend to interprete that "evidence". I might translate this poorly, but it is basically a Thank You letter by a group of fishermen from Fujian province who got stranded at sea near the islands and were rescued, which were addressed as "Senkaku Islands", but so what? It also addressed Japan as the "Japan Imperium", prseumably during the period of WWII when Taiwan and Krea were part of Japan. Have you got any GENUINE historical records that demarcate those islands as part of Japan [or even Okinawa] prior to 1874??????
Ha, I got a Chinese friend to interprete that "evidence". I might translate this poorly, but it is basically a Thank You letter by a group of fishermen from Fujian province who got stranded at sea near the islands and were rescued, which were addressed as "Senkaku Islands", but so what? It also addressed Japan as the "Japan Imperium", prseumably during the period of WWII when Taiwan and Krea were part of Japan. Have you got any GENUINE historical records that demarcate those islands as part of Japan [or even Okinawa] prior to 1874??????
