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Japan Bashing

How far can a foreigner take criticism of Japan before it becomes inappropriate?

  • No criticism is valid because it is not your culture and foreigners can't understand it.

    Votes: 20 6.6%

  • A minor amount of criticism is acceptable, so long as it doesn't offend anyone.

    Votes: 38 12.5%

  • Polite criticism is acceptable, as long as you take into consideration cultural differences while ma

    Votes: 200 65.6%

  • Anything goes.

    Votes: 39 12.8%

  • No opinion.

    Votes: 8 2.6%
  • Total voters
    305
FrustratedDave said:
I know I am going to get flamed again for saying this, but your level of Japanese plays a huge part in how you are ultimately treated.
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No arguments there, as long as you agree that language is not the only part.

And if you were to be near native level in speaking it would only take you 2 seconds to say to someone that you have naturalized and that would be the end of it.
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I don't know Arudou's level of Japanese, but I was under the impression it was very good. He said he was naturalized, yet was denied entry to the onsen.

Naturalizing in most advanced countries is hard these days, Japan is no exception, so until you earn the right I think that you should roll with the punches.
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Why should foreigners roll with discrimination punches? Especially those who have earned their PR?

Russians were causing problems, so the owner decided to carte blanche ban all foreigners. Problem is, Arudou was not admitted despite being a naturalized citizen. I believe the reason was that the owner said other customers wouldn't know that just by looking at him.

The sign was there so that the owner could enforce it if need be. I don't know how true this information is , but I have come accross it several times now.
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The sign was later taken down due to the court case, as I recall, so it shows how improper and illegal it was.

Remember, too, that he was not the only plaintiff. Two other foreigners were with him in that court case.
 
Glenski said:
No arguments there, as long as you agree that language is not the only part.
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We are in agreement here, but remember it is the biggest part.

Glenski said:
I don't know Arudou's level of Japanese, but I was under the impression it was very good. He said he was naturalized, yet was denied entry to the onsen.
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My first impression when I heard the tapes the other day on the ID incedent was that he has a very big "namari", it also seemed like he speaking as if he was literally translating English in his head first and then speaking. What I mean by that is that it was not was not what I Japanese would say in some places through out the tape. Just my opinion, maybe a native could make a comment?

Glenski said:
Why should foreigners roll with discrimination punches? Especially those who have earned their PR?
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When I say roll with the punches, I am meaning follow the laws that other foriegners have to follow too. I know there are a few things I would like changed for PR people but I am not going to get upset about it if they don't change.

I know the Russian Saliors were the ones who originaly cause most of the problems and that is why the sign was put up. However, the owner was letting in other foriegners at the time Dave was not admitted and from what I have read Dave was intentionaly going there to start trouble and the owner knew it so he refused entry to him. So no he was not banning all foriengers that passed through the doors. And Iron Chef actually just said the same thing as to what I have read about the place b/c he was let in .

Glenski said:
The sign was later taken down due to the court case, as I recall, so it shows how improper and illegal it was.

Remember, too, that he was not the only plaintiff. Two other foreigners were with him in that court case.
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Yes , but you don't know the circumstances that they were refused. Eg, A guy of different race starts causing trouble in a restaurant and is then kicked out for the sake of the other patrons. At the time he was the only person of that race being kicked out so he decides to sue and cry racial discrimination. Every one knows that once those two words come out everything else is not taken into accout and the fact that he was causeing trouble rarely hoolds water b/c it is a case of "he said she said". I think we need to look at the situation more objectively or find out really what happened and as to why they were refused.
 
From what I remember hearing from friends at the time living in Otaru was that some of the Russian sailors liked to sneak their alcohol with them into that particular onsen and drink while soaking which I suppose is frowned upon. Naturally, after a while the noise levels would become quite boisterous and other patrons would complain to the proprietor. At least I think that was the impetus for them putting up the sign in the first place.
 
I've been avoiding this thread, especially since I moved to Korea. I have no stomach for Japan bashing anymore. You want to hear Japan bashing? Come here, to Korea. Meet some Koreans. Mention Japan... even in passing. You'll hear Japan bashing until you are physically sick.

I almost got into a fight just for practicing Japanese with a Korean Japanese major at Pukyoung University in Busan. Some Korean guys heard me speaking Japanese to her and just went ballistic, on both of us. What saved us was one of my friends speaks Russian fluently and managed to scare them (all Russian guys here are supposedly mobsters).

I've heard Americans and Canadians complain about Japan. But nothing compares to the venom, vitriol and downright vindictiveness the Koreans harbor for the Japanese. I mean, yeah, maybe they have a reason to be so ticked off, but the line should be drawn somewhere. The behavior is actually making me more and more sympathetic toward Japan as a result, rather than convincing me of their "evil ways."
 


Thanks for sharing your insights,a dose of reality on typical S Koreans' feelings have of Japan & Japanese.

Only a handful of trollish North America's Korean and Japan's zainichi Korean netizens ( some aren't really Koreans,just pretend to be one ) desire closeness between two peoples.They absolutely don't speak for those living in Koreas.
 
Yeah... trolling/flaming seems to be a problem everywhere.
 
bammbamm&pebbles said:
Thanks for sharing your insights,a dose of reality on typical S Koreans' feelings have of Japan & Japanese.
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Not sure if you are being sarcastic. But I'll admit, my post is pretty harsh-sounding. Nevertheless, my point is that most all Koreans are raised to hate Japan. Their government, teachers, and elders all ingrain them with this anti-Japanese sentiment. Any Koreans who like Japanese and Japan generally keep it to themselves unless they are with foreigners. From my experience, Koreans who major in Japanese are often somewhat insular.

Koreans don't have otaku like Japan. As homogeneous as Japan is, Korea is moreso. So the ostracism for being a Japanophile is pretty harsh if you are found out. It's almost like you are considered a traitor.

I'll admit, Japan did some pretty messed-up things during the Second World War. But that doesn't warrant the continued hate and vitriol that mainstream Korean society keeps simmering just beneath the surface. In addition, the political jockeying over Dok-Do/Takeshima just throws gas on the flames.

Not all Koreans have this hate here. But those who don't are bucking a system in a society where doing so leads to very negative social stigmas.
 


Outdated notion ...


Popular Johnny's idol Tomohisa Yamashita, 23, was mobbed by fans at Kimpo Airport in South Korea on April 6 when he was in the departure terminal.

When some local fans found him, they grabbed his hair and clothes. There were about 1,000 fans and local media waiting at the airport.

Johnny's idol Tomohisa Yamashita mobbed by fans in Korea

Popular Johnny's idol Tomohisa Yamashita, 23, was mobbed by fans at Kimpo Airport in South Korea on April 6 when he was in the departure terminal. According to an observer, Yamashita was privately visiting the country with his friends. When some local fans found him, they grabbed his hair and…
japantoday.com
 
I can't say for living in Korea, but I used to frequent antijapan.com a lot. One of the first and foremost hate sites in Korea. But in no way would I assume they are the majority.

And Japanese pop culture seems to be spread throughout Asia. A lot of Japanese pop artists will come to Asian countries like Korea before they'll ever come to the United States or Europe.

And my Chinese friend told me that relations between Japan and Korea and better than those between Japan and China.

I know Korea has it's hate, but surely it can't be that extreme.
 
It's pretty sad to see this hatred from both sides. There is an amount of Koreans hating Japan and vice versa. Of course one can't get rid or try to avoid any prejudice but not even trying to get to know the individual behind a picture you've in mind is actually a big problem. Though it is indeed the most convenient way to just accept what is told and assumed by the majority.

Also as a foreigner I think that to some extend it's up to your own personality to feel discriminated or not. I'm not defending or blaming anyone with that, that's just one thing I concluded for myself. Though as I said there is a border,which I'd define as pretty vague at times, for things that can be tolerated or not.
 
Ahega said:
Though it is indeed the most convenient way to just accept what is told and assumed by the majority.
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I concur with that. It is the most convenient and safe way to live. It could be a very dangerous thing to stand against a large patriotic crowd. Didn't we have a Chinese student in Duke who attempted to mediate between the pro-Tibetan group and the pro-Chinese group before the Olympic games, and later her family in China was attacked by a crazy crowd of pro-Chinese people?
 
"A minor amount of criticism is acceptable, so long as it doesn't offend anyone."
 
Ace, I'm here. I see it and hear it every day. And yes, they do. Idols and celebrities are, always are, and have always been, exceptions to rules like this. You don't see these kids with Japanese stuff get yelled at like I do, and not just by elders, but by other kids their age. Certain Japanese things can fly under the radar, like that Sgt. Frog show, or Pokemon, but talk about anything more substantially Japanese, and you get the sick eye.

It's not that they are the majority. It's that their viewpoint is acceptable. It's in line with culture and society. Plenty of people here don't hate Japan. But they don't talk about that because plenty others do, and loudly, and make it known.

Ahega said:
Also as a foreigner I think that to some extent it's up to your own personality to feel discriminated against or not.
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This is true. Although sometimes you can't avoid the fact that something is simply flat-out discrimination, period. However, you can choose to get mad and offended, or simply to walk away.

Over time, though, it gets to you. Whether you like it or not.
 
My source told me,S Korea's Hannara Party has pro-Japan element and they have been nurturing ' chummy ' relations between Japanese & S Korea in recent years and an agenda regards Mongolia a ' brotherly ' nation.
 
Japan can take solace in the fact that Koreans don't particularly like anyone except Koreans.
 
If you're referring to Korean Jref members,many have been immediately banned for ' outward Japan bashing ' on this forum.
 
Any member who goes overboard with hate..............

can get banned. We have had hate filled members rant against Americans, Koreans, Japanese, and other groups; they all get banned. We try to keep JREF family friendly. Swearing, personal attacks(flaming), hateful rants, dirty or gore filled photos, spam, promoting personal agendas,fanatically religious posts are all frowned upon. Even members who try to hide their strong prejudices( but don't hide it well enough) can be voted off the island. We work hard to avoid censorship of posts and threads here on JREF and often hold discussions and votes on posts that push the limits of good taste. Just my 2 cents worth, can't speak for others.

Uncle Frank

☝
 
Since this website's inception in 2004,no more than one S Korean was here to expressed strong interest in Japanese culture or studied Japanese language or participated in discussion of Japanese pop entertainment.Clearly,they only come with personal agenda,either seek some sort of ' superficial ' ties to Japanese people or bash Japan.

The list is long for ' Japanophile ' SE Asians and Chinese,most proven to have concrete desire to learn the Japanese language & about Japan.
 
bammbamm&pebbles said:
If you're referring to Korean Jref members,many have been immediately banned for ' outward Japan bashing ' on this forum.
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Nope. Not referring to them. More-or-less referring to the tons of people I run into here who have a lot of anger and resentment for Japan. Granted, to some extent it's justified, historically speaking. But it gets wearisome. A lot of it, however, is limited to current politics and the entire Dok-do/Takeshima affair (which just blows my mind with how stupid it is). But if you get them going, they'll tell you every evil thing Japan ever did to them. To which, my typical response is, "Well, they outlawed slavery in Korea!" which often gets a rather dubious response.

Wait, doesn't this kind of prove my point?

Regardless, I'm not here to bash Korea or Japan. I'm just trying to comment that, man, it's sometimes really bothersome to hear all of this negativity toward Japan on the forums and in threads like this when I get to see slogans on T-Shirts, anti-Japanese news stories on TV, and so on.
 
My 2 previous posts regarding Korean Jref members were not in response to you,just random comments.

On the contrary,anti-Japan sentiment is very low in Taiwan.Some local TV programs often ' benchmark ' Japan for many things.
 
I don't get why the history of a country is always used as an excuse to bash the people of the country. Those events are often generations away and you get blamed for something you've not done. Of course no one should neither forget what happened in the past nor glorify it (or the other way around).
So is it with the Japanese and their colonial history and I know it too from the doings of Germany in WWII. I think the historical distance should be great enough by now to understand what happened and why things developed in such a way.In the end no one wants to be blamed for something the ancestors did. But as I said, it's a good excuse, isn't it?
 
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Living in Korea, I enjoy the satisfaction of saying "Japan!" and hearing their groans when my students ask me which do I like best, Korea or Japan, while their lovingly, detailed "Dok-do belongs to Korea!~" posters adorn the rear wall....

And, well, calling a naturalized citizen a foreigner seems all too backward. What's the point of naturalization if you aren't a citizen? I'm not talking about anyone in particular, but just... get real.
 
Ahega said:
I don't get why the history of a country is always used as an excuse to bash the people of the country.
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Well, America's recent history (read, post-World War II) has been fuel for plenty of America-bashing throughout the world. But that's kind of off-topic.

A lot of individuals are still alive here in Korea whose lives were ruined by the Japanese. Now, I could just sit back and say, "Whatever, get on with your life," but plenty of bleeding hearts (especially Anglophones) get pretty up-in-arms when I say that. "You weren't there, you don't know what it's like. You didn't see your family killed. You didn't experience it." Whatever, I didn't, fine, but holding onto the past like that is patently not healthy, regardless of any justification/rationalization, etc.

MatsuyamaHime said:
Living in Korea, I enjoy the satisfaction of saying "Japan!" and hearing their groans when my students ask me which do I like best, Korea or Japan
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I haven't lived in Japan, but I always get asked if I like living in Korea. I usually respond, "when Koreans aren't being racist, yes." But that's only on Bad Days. There are Bad Days and Good Days, and most often, I have a Good Day (6 out of 7 are good at least).

As an historian, I can understand the different historical forces that have made them the way that they are. Yes, I work in generalizations. That's because I am an historian. And generally, I find the Koreans far more jingoist and nationalist, but that is because, as I've said, they are a dog that's been kicked one time too many. They've had little impact on the world. They're small, they've always been small, and they know it. It's a big blow to their national pride, so they cover it up and try to compensate. Japan is an ideal target, historically speaking, for their anger. They can use Japan to funnel a lot of their own insecurities as a people and culture. That's why they are acting like a screaming infant over Dok-do/Takeshima--they need a victory here, because it will represent vindication after all of the time they've spent as a Japanese vassal. They take their insecurities and funnel them against Americans, too, because we represent yet another foreign power that rules them as a client state, so Japan isn't alone in that regard.

This isn't to say it is or is not justified--it just is. This is partially why I think it is. Korean individuals run the gamut, just like any other culture or people. But, regardless, I see these trends playing out in individuals and having a definite impact on them and their worldviews.
 
Intolerance is intolerance.
And why would anyone be here at Jref if they don't like Japan.

As for the Korea Japan thing, apparently there are enough tolerant people in Japan to build that "EnjoyKorea" site. I would assume there are enough people in Korea to return the favor. Right? I dunno, maybe I need to go to Korea to find out.
 
In entertainment, Japan has been in love with all things Korean since the Kdrama "Winter Sonata" showed here a few years ago. There are tours of middle-aged ladies to see the places it was filmed, the lead actor's homes and even their offices. Several Korean pop boybands are quite popular with teen-aged girls.

When I went to Pusan, Korea back in '92, several men tried to give me a job on the spot when they found out I was teaching in Japan. "And we'll double your salary over what the Japanese pay you!" Another older man spit on me (although that is likely to be anti-American sentiment, there had been riots a few days previously).

I've been in Japan since '90, and I'd have to say Debito's situation in Otaru was a bit different, though. His wife and one daughter, who appears ethnically Japanese, were allowed into the hot spring. He and his other daughter, who appears caucasion were denied. And laws had finally just been passed which made such discrimination illegal. This was all over the news at the time, too.

Now, I'm not particularly fond of the guy, I think he carries a huge chip on his shoulder, but I signed petitions for him. How would you like to be a father whose child is denied entry because she looks too much like you? I can handle being denied entry into certain places: I may not like it, but I'll just take my business elsewhere, or call the cops if they really piss me off. But this was his kid... But I live in Kansai, where things are very different. I keep having to keep my kids heads on their shoulders, because they are quite popular as 'half's.
 
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