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Japan Bashing

How far can a foreigner take criticism of Japan before it becomes inappropriate?

  • No criticism is valid because it is not your culture and foreigners can't understand it.

    Votes: 20 6.6%
  • A minor amount of criticism is acceptable, so long as it doesn't offend anyone.

    Votes: 38 12.5%
  • Polite criticism is acceptable, as long as you take into consideration cultural differences while ma

    Votes: 200 65.6%
  • Anything goes.

    Votes: 39 12.8%
  • No opinion.

    Votes: 8 2.6%

  • Total voters
    305
Take a peek at www.debito.org for a glimpse of the many topics
You talk as if I haven't been to that site several times throughout the years.
Also, did you not see where I brought up Japanese Only signs on my previous post. Like I said, it's okay to have constructive criticism, but one much be very careful to not be racist oneself when pointing out the racism in others.

Your jumping on me only makes me feel more strongly about the way I feel on matters.

I'm happy that Debito cares about the treatment of other foreigners in Japan. And I think it's neat how he forcibly ingrained himself in by becoming a naturalized citizen himself. But I'm not sure I agree with his methods.
 
I'm happy that Debito cares about the treatment of other foreigners in Japan. And I think it's neat how he forcibly ingrained himself in by becoming a naturalized citizen himself. But I'm not sure I agree with his methods.
He says he's Japanese, but seems to promote only his non-Japanese side, while antagonizing the rest of the Japanese. Seems hypocritical.
 
He says he's Japanese, but seems to promote only his non-Japanese side, while antagonizing the rest of the Japanese. Seems hypocritical.

He is Japanese.
He promotes the rights of foreigners living in Japan having been one himself at one time.
How is that hypocritical?
 
What do you mean by "Japanese". It isn't just a legal concept. It's also a cultural/racial concept.
 
Well, nothing he can do to change his Haplogroup arrangement. Nationality shouldn't be a racial thing anyway. Sorry, but my American upbringing makes me think that nationality is just citizenship. It doesn't matter you're ethnicity, you can still be an "American". Even the Native Americans are immigrants from Siberia, in my mind.
But if a person wants to be Japanese and be considered Japanese, ruffling feathers isn't exactly the most Japanese thing to do.

I can agree a little bit on the cultural thing. But Arudo Debito has done a lot to try to intricate into Japanese culture as far as my knowledge of him goes. Has Arudo Debito not tried to become Japanese culturally?
 
What do you mean by "Japanese". It isn't just a legal concept. It's also a cultural/racial concept.
Does that have anything to do with whether his actions are hypocritical or not?
 
Debito is a great example that you can be naturalized in Japan (no matter how loud you are).

We have many activists more than Debito, "no anthem, no flag, and no Japan" in Japan like other democratic countries, even after Chinese people paid their respect on them at the Olympic. And of course, it is totally up to your choice where to live. I don't know Debito in person, but I hope he is better than them.

And it is mysterious for me why the "NO" people do not go to "YES" countries, for no law/constitution prevents you from living your favorite countries. It is easy for Japanese people to win the green card lottery for the US, so the US is not the YES country for them.
 
Debito is a great example that you can be naturalized in Japan (no matter how loud you are).

That's a weird thing to say. Of all people in Japan, shouldn't its citizens be the most vocal?
 
"American" is citizenship, but even Americans have their own racial/ethnic/cultural identities. You are European American, African-American, native-American, etc. "Japanese" is both citizenship and cultural/ethnic identity. The majority in Japan are "Japanese-Japanese".

Imagine someone who just got citizenship in the US whining how racist white/black/hispanic or whatever Americans are. Like you said "one much be very careful to not be racist oneself when pointing out the racism in others."
 
Yes, I saw that, but i was very confused about your next statement there:
No matter how many Japanese Only signs there are or whatever, it doesn't make it right to become Japanophobic in return.
If there are a huge number of such things, it is a pretty strong indication that the foreigners will begin to rightfully feel Japanophobic, so your point does not hold water.

Yes, one must be careful not to be racist oneself. But, just where did that stem from in your mind?

I'm happy that Debito cares about the treatment of other foreigners in Japan. And I think it's neat how he forcibly ingrained himself in by becoming a naturalized citizen himself. But I'm not sure I agree with his methods.
You make it sound like he naturalized to be a stronger advocate of human rights here.

BTW, I don't always agree with what he writes or how he acts, either.

He says he's Japanese, but seems to promote only his non-Japanese side, while antagonizing the rest of the Japanese. Seems hypocritical.
He says he is Japanese because that is his citizenship now. His American citizenship is no longer a part of his life, and he is obviously proud of calling himself Japanese. Just because he is in favor of helping the foreigners here doesn't make that hypocritical. If a person advocated gay rights but was not gay, is that hypocritical?

But if a person wants to be Japanese and be considered Japanese, ruffling feathers isn't exactly the most Japanese thing to do.
Tell that to the Aum Shinrikyo or the Red Army. Not that such a statement is meant to compare Arudou with those creeps, but what I'm saying is, there are plenty of Japanese who are waking up to human rights, women's rights, equal rights, etc. and are being vocal about it. Are they not truly Japanese? Besides, being vocal is often one very good way to get noticed, and that is just the start in getting things changed. Squeaky wheel, you know.

Has Arudo Debito not tried to become Japanese culturally?
What the heck does this have to do with anything? Plenty of foreigners eat with chopsticks and wear kimonos and sleep on futons and bow and follow certain polite manners, etc. and they have NOT taken Japanese citizenship, but do you say they are weird? Arudou is by law a Japanese citizen. Who cares (or knows) what he does culturally? Is he supposed to retain American ways? You pose a very strange question.
 
Regarding Debito

Debito is known to distort things in his posts and delete posts of all reasonable people. I am sorry for you if you believe everything in his site. I suggest a good starting point is to read the comments on occidentalism.org/?p=908 in the article titles Debito leading foreigners down the garden path. That will give you a little idea.
 
Debito is known to distort things in his posts and delete posts of all reasonable people. I am sorry for you if you believe everything in his site.
Reread what I wrote above.

BTW, I don't always agree with what he writes or how he acts, either.
 
And others would not, Dave. Stalemate. Go ask Debito if you don't believe his web site. I really don't care.
 
will begin to rightfully feel Japanophobic.
I'm sorry, I cannot agree.
I do not believe racism is ever justified.

An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind.
If you experience racism from Japanese and it makes you racist towards them, then you're no better. You've just become a mirror image of the racism you faced.
 
I'm sorry, I cannot agree.
I do not believe racism is ever justified.
Being Japanophobic does not mean that those foreigners are racist. You misunderstood what I wrote. "Phobic" means to dislike. If someone or some country treats you badly, you are justified in disliking them. That is, it's human nature.

Besides, Japanese are not a "race", so there is no "racism" involved, if you want to get technical about it.

How do YOU feel foreigners should feel and respond to the racist and discriminatory elements in Japan?
 
...
If someone or some country treats you badly, you are justified in disliking them. That is, it's human nature.

I don't know if it is just human nature or not, but once you get naturalized in Japan, you don't have to sue the ultra-racist governor Ishihara like the Korean bureaucrat did. And you will simply be promoted to the senior position like her bother.

Japan is the country where you can get a position in the public sector without being naturalized. And if you are ambitious, just get naturalized to be a higher ranked official or politician.
 
Usually I think that all people around the world is the same, only the languages are a bit different, but it's not quite accurate though, I know that too.
For Japanese people the most "weird" thing I have found out is that they never say that they love each other and don't openly express their feelings, that is something I find ... well, odd ... how ever ok, I suppose sometimes it's better to say nothing than to say a lot of sh*t you don't mean anyways ...
 
Becoming naturalized is still no solution to the discrimination, pipokun. You ought to know that by now.

And, not every foreigner here (me included) even wants to naturalize.
 
"Phobic" means to dislike. If someone or some country treats you badly, you are justified in disliking them.
If a person treats you badly, you are justified in disliking that person.
Not a whole country.

Besides, Japanese are not a "race", so there is no "racism" involved, if you want to get technical about it.
No race is a race. Race is a completely relative term.
I can just as easily say Asian isn't a race.

How do YOU feel foreigners should feel and respond to the racist and discriminatory elements in Japan?
Personally, I would respond as passively and humbly as possible.
But I guess that's just me.
 
Becoming naturalized is still no solution to the discrimination, pipokun. You ought to know that by now.

And, not every foreigner here (me included) even wants to naturalize.
It would solve 99% of most foriengers problems IMO.

And if you really believed that naturalizing would not help then you would not need to say what you said in your last statement. It sounds like you are saying "Even if naturalizing did solve your problems, some of us don't want to naturalize anyway... " . Not naturalizing is is "YOUR" choice and no one elses, so don't you think that those who do choose to not naturalize should show a little bit more empathy towards what Japan decides for it country?
 

Obviously naturalization helps when it comes to legal or procedural issues. But I don't see how it would alleviate any of the 'standard gaijin gripes'. The many new Japanese you meet every day will still judge you by your 'non-Japanese' looks.

And it's not exactly true that naturalizing or not is completely the choice of the foreigner. Japan makes it damn hard to naturalize. I'm sure there are many people who would naturalize if they could.
 
If a person treats you badly, you are justified in disliking that person.
Not a whole country.
And if it's the government that treats you badly, or a lot of shopkeepers...? Increases the numbers, doesn't it?

No race is a race. Race is a completely relative term.
I can just as easily say Asian isn't a race.
Again, if you want to get technical...

Personally, I would respond as passively and humbly as possible.
But I guess that's just me.
I guess so. But in some ways, passive doesn't cut it. How else are things going to change unless something active is done?

Not naturalizing is is "YOUR" choice and no one elses, so don't you think that those who do choose to not naturalize should show a little bit more empathy towards what Japan decides for it country?
It's my choice. It's every individual's choice. We agree on that.

More empathy towards Japan? Case by case. How do you think Arudou feels despite naturalizing?
 
I know I am going to get flamed again for saying this, but your level of Japanese plays a huge part in how you are ultimately treated. And if you were to be near native level in speaking it would only take you 2 seconds to say to someone that you have naturalized and that would be the end of it.

Naturalizing in most advanced countries is hard these days, Japan is no exception, so until you earn the right I think that you should roll with the punches.

More empathy towards Japan? Case by case. How do you think Arudou feels despite naturalizing?
From what I understand he has brought most of the crap he gets on himself, so I think you have a "exception" with him. I was reading up on the onsen incident and the owner was letting in foriegners at the time he refused Dave, apparently there was some trouble and that is why he was refused. The sign was there so that the owner could enforce it if need be. I don't know how true this information is , but I have come accross it several times now.
 
Interesting discussion. I will chime in with my 2 yen lol as irrelevant as it may be.

1) I have been to the now infamous onsen Debito cited on two different occasions both BEFORE the whole stink was raised while I was living in Sapporo at the time (mid 90s) and I was (as far as I can recall) treated no different than any other nor was I turned away. I used to frequent Yubari, Otaru, that whole area quite frequently back in the day and by chance:

2) I have also met Debito in person quite by accident (around the same time, '97 I think actually) and he struck me as well... yeah, one of those guys who immediately finds the faults and negatives in anything and everything. You know the type, the ones who like to moan and complain about every percieved slight/inconvenience against them. I don't remember much else about what was said beyond introductions, just a first impression really so maybe my depiction of him now in hindsight is not an accurate one, dunno. I give him credit though for taking up this whole issue (and everything related to it) as his own personal crusade but personally I could care less and am not the type to take up the banner.
 
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