Japan Bashing

bah all the other students i work with at college are so evil, they make fun of everyone and everything..doesnt matter who they hurt. They p*ss me cause they stuff about Japan and Japanese people a couple of time and it really makes me made cause its quite rude. They dont know what they are talking about..i just wish i was confident enough to tell them that V.V

Critisicism when done constructively and serves a purpose of maybe helping whom (Or what) is being criticized to do better or do something right, can be helpful. But when criticism is used more as a means of insult, then in that context, I find it unneccessary.

Criticism is alright if it is done in moderation and it isn't meant to hurt anyone. Like if someone says, "I don't like the pollution in Japan" or "I don't really like the crowds in Tokyo" that kind of criticism is ok to me. But if someone says something like "Japanese people are so short and think they know everything! We sure showed them when we bombed them" or something to that effect makes me extremely angry. I hate ignorant people like that.

Depends on the person

If you want to "criticize" another culture, how willing are you to have others criticize yours? it's all very subjective.

From my international experience, I strongly believe that those who chose "No criticism is valid because it is not your culture and foreigners can't understand it." are people who are either too stupid to understand even their own culture, or have never really left their country (except for beach holidays and a week of sightseeing maybe).

I may not mind people criticing my birth country's culture, because
1) it is difficult given that there is a different culture in each of the 3 linguistic groups, each of which linked to a neighbouring country. So if one criticises the Flemings, they may also criticise the Dutch, but maybe not (maybe the Walloons !).

2) I don't mind criticising anything I don't like there myself (and I harsher on it and with my compatriots than with anybody else).

3) I am not very attached to my birth country, having lived in many other countries and feeling more "international".

Yumi-Takana said:

Criticism is alright if it is done in moderation and it isn't meant to hurt anyone.

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I disagree. There is almost no point in criticism if you don't shock people enough for them to realise their weaknesses and change. This is not only true for cultural criticism, but any "justified" criticism. If you want a child to learn, sometime it is good to embarass him/her or make him/her ashamed of his/her ignorance/mistakes, so that they will not forget so easily about their failure and not do it again.

Like if someone says, "I don't like the pollution in Japan" or "I don't really like the crowds in Tokyo" that kind of criticism is ok to me. But if someone says something like "Japanese people are so short and think they know everything!

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Your examples are not even criticism to me. They are just a personal opinions, or unreflected, emotional comments.

True criticism should be logically argued, pinpoint the problem(s), explain why it shouldn't be like that (not because of personal feelings, but for example because it could be dangerous/harmful to society), then provide possible solutions. Basically criticism is saying something like "you shouldn't do x because of y and do z instead for this and that reasons".

"Japanese people are so short and think they know everything! We sure showed them when we bombed them"

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This reaction (won't call it "criticism") sounds very puerile, or very "lower class". I don't remember meeting anybody saying things like that (not just about Japan but in general, except if it was obviously said as a gross joke).

Carth said:

Critisicism when done constructively and serves a purpose of maybe helping whom (Or what) is being criticized to do better or do something right, can be helpful. But when criticism is used more as a means of insult, then in that context, I find it unneccessary.

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That's a good point. But "emotional criticism meant as an insult and not based on any fact" is for me just an insult, not criticism. But I agree that it is possible to criticise based on real facts, and not being constructive about it because the person criticising does not explain why it is bad and how it should be changed.

Black Piano said:

bah all the other students i work with at college are so evil, they make fun of everyone and everything..doesnt matter who they hurt. They p*ss me cause they stuff about Japan and Japanese people a couple of time and it really makes me made cause its quite rude. They dont know what they are talking about..i just wish i was confident enough to tell them that V.V

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We are not talking about adults here (and probably not very mature teenagers either). We could forgive this behaviour on grounds of the lack of maturity, but I sincerely hope they will stop behaving like that past 20 years old (I see you are 17, so I guess the people you refer to are about the same age).

Pachipro said:

In my 32 year relationship with Japan, I have come to the conclusion, even when I was living there, that this is not my country, I was not born here, and I am not a citizen. I am a guest and if I don't like it, I can just leave. Or, I can attempt to learn the language and culture to gain an understanding of just where the Japanese are coming from and the basis for their thinking.

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I think even people born and raised in Japan with the Japanese citizenship can leave the country if they can't stand living there anymore. That's probably why, despite all the linguistic and cultural differences, there are 875,000 Japanese citizens living outside Japan (mostly in Western countries), a third of whom permanently.

As for learning more about the language and culture, what would happen if someone learns so much about them that he/she surpasses the knowledge of the ordinary Japanese, and still has complaints because he/she is not fully accepted/recognised because he/she looks different ? What does this person have to face ignorance in daily life, knowing more about the culture than the natives, and be dismayed at the little locals know about their own country ? I have already reached this stage about parts of the culture (history, religion, geography and demographics... sometimes even kanji). So, despite the fact that the Japanese call me "gaijin" ("outsider") and ask me questions like "Do you know where Matsuyama is ?" or "Can you use chopsticks ?", I cannot find a common ground because I quickly realise that not only do I know where is Matsuyama, I can also tell its population, history, important sights, etc., which my Japanese interlocutor cannot. Because I have written about many Japanese cities for JREF's Travel Guide and wrote statistics pages about cities population, prefectural GDP per capita, etc.

I have reached situations in which a new Japanese acquaintance tells me where his/her hometown is, and I say "oh yes, your are from Amagasaki near Kobe in Hyogo prefecture; isn't the population about 460,000 ?" Or "Oh, you are from Kyoto, have you been to the Fushimi Inari Taisha ?". Usually I only meet blank stares as my interlocutor as no idea, even about their hometown. Likewise, many Japanese ask me if I am Christian (heaven forbids ! ), so I feel obliged to ask them if they are Buddhist or Shintoist. Some don't even know what is Shintoism (even when I show them the explanation in my Japanese-Japanese dictionary), and if they are Buddhist, many are not sure which sect they belong to, even when I tell them the whole list. No wonder I have people telling me that they didn't like European history or geography at school because it's "too complicated" - if they don't even know their own country.

So what should a foreigner in Japan be supposed to do ? Learn about the basics of the culture and country and immediately know more than ordinary (university-educated) Japanese, or just stay at the same ignorance level as them ? Should I be surprised when my (Japanese) wife asks me what this or that kanji means ? This is where 'adapting into Japanese society' is so different from adapting in the Italian or German society (to mention two countries where I have also lived). If an Italian tell you about a famous Italian painter and you admit that you don't know, their reaction will be "what, you don't know x ?! He is so famous !", in disbelief. In Japan the same situation can happened, but in reverse; the foreigner asks the Japanese "what you don't know who is x ?! He is so famous in Japan". Yet, I found the same local ignorance in Australia (I still remember asking some people about governor Macquarie, one of the founding fathers of Australia, and nobody knew who he was).

dayjp said:

If you live in Japan, Japan bashing is a way to stay sane. Often, the better you know the culture and the language, the more difficult it gets.

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If only one had told me that before, I would not have come to Japan ! There is no way for me to stay in a country, talk to the locals, and not learn about the coountry's culture ! So the longer one stays, and the harder it gets. I don't mind life in Japan as long as the people I meet do not fall in the forbidden category described in this article. No, I don't want to hear this stupid theory about Asian being farmers and European hunters anymore !

Congratulations on your new sub-forum!

If I remember correctly, I gave you the data for your theory on Japanese emigrants and stressful Japanese life before.

What do you think of non-Japanese expats living in Japan? Ghosn-san must be just an exception, but I believe you know much more the culture/history than Japanese or non-Japanese expats. I think it is totally unfair and you should be qualified to be a millionaire here.

What about this? I put Japan in the same category as my native country. Or any other country, for that matter. Japan is as it is. That's the starting point for anything I say about Japan. There are things that I personally disagree with, but that holds true for any country, or company, or any other social group on the planet. I don't think that my native country's culture is inherently correct and Japanese inherently wrong, nor the reverse. I don't try to be an ex-pat in Japan, nor do I think of myself as one. I just try to be. I come across many problems, and I get frustrated, just as I used to back where I came from. And I complain from time to time. This is natural, and anyone who does this is perfectly within their rights.

However, categorically denying an aspect of any country's culture falls far outside of one's reasonable rights and priviledges as an individual. Especially if you don't know what you're talking about. I want to say an example, but I don't really know any other non-Japanese people anymore, so I don't hear much "Japan-bashing". I'm sorry about this, but the point is that "your" country or culture is not inherently superior to any other country or culture, Japan and its people included. Most people can only see another country or culture through the lens of their native one, and that's fine, but you must keep in mind that everybody has their own cultural lens. Why is yours better than anyone else's?

So in sum, I think that as long as you criticize Japan, but are mindful that there's plenty of dirty laundry in your basket, too, you are OK. Perhaps too simply put. (^o^)

Mikawa Ossan said:

What about this? I put Japan in the same category as my native country. Or any other country, for that matter. Japan is as it is. That's the starting point for anything I say about Japan. There are things that I personally disagree with, but that holds true for any country, or company, or any other social group on the planet. I don't think that my native country's culture is inherently correct and Japanese inherently wrong, nor the reverse. I don't try to be an ex-pat in Japan, nor do I think of myself as one. I just try to be. I come across many problems, and I get frustrated, just as I used to back where I came from. And I complain from time to time. This is natural, and anyone who does this is perfectly within their rights.
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I completely agree with that.

Maciamo said:

As for learning more about the language and culture, what would happen if someone learns so much about them that he/she surpass the knowledge of the ordinary Japanese, and still have complaints because he/she is not fully accepted/recognised because he/she looks different ? What is this person has to face ignorance in daily life, knowing more about the culture than the natives, and be dismayed at the little locals know abou their own country ? I have already reached this stage about parts of the culture (history, religion, geography and demographics... sometimes even kanji). So, despite the fact that the Japanese call me "gaijin" ("outsider") and ask me questions like "Do you know where Matsuyama is ?" or "Can you use chopsticks ?", I cannot find a common ground because I quickly realise that not only do I know where is Matsuyama, I can also tell its population, history, important sights, etc., which my Japanese interlocutor cannot. Because I have written about many Japanese cities for JREF's Travel Guide and wrote statistics pages about cities population, prefectural GDP per capita, etc.

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I was in the same boat as you as I knew alot more about Japanese history than many Japanese I met as I had a great interest in learning as much as I could while at university. I even know more details than my wife, but she knows the basics. The same goes for some aspects of the culture and the local area I lived in, but I would not be dismayed that they knew less than I do as it was probably not an interest of theirs. In some aspects, they knew more than I did as it was an interest of theirs and not mine.

It's the same in this country as I probably know more about American history, politics, the local town I live in, etc. than do many natives. But that is because I choose to learn about such things while others do not. Are they ignorant? Not really, unless they do not know the basics that everyone, from high school drop-outs to university educated should know, like who our founding fathers were or who is the vice-president of the US and such or the mayor of the town. These types I would rather not associate with. But it doesn't bother me nor am I dismayed as it is their choice.

So what should a foreigner in Japan be supposed to do ? Learn about the basics of the culture and country and immediately know more than ordinary (university-educated) Japanese, or just stay at the same ignorance level as them ?

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If that is the foreigners choice than so be it, but I wonder if it is really basic knowledge for the average Japanese, even university educated, to know what the GDP of his/her prefecture is for example, or the history of the Yoritomo family if that is not their interest. What you consider basic information and education may be information that is not required to be known even among University graduates.

Should I be surprised when my (Japanese) wife asks me what this or that kanji means ? This is where 'adapting into Japanese society' is so different from adapting in the Italian or German society (to mention two countries where I have also lived). If an Italian tell you about a famous Italian painter and you admit that you don't know, their reaction will be "what, you don't know x ?! He is so famous !", in disbelief. In Japan the same situation can happened, but in reverse; the foreigner asks the Japanese "what you don't know who is x ?! He is so famous in Japan". Yet, I found the same local ignorance in Australia (I still remember asking some people about governor Macquarie, one of the founding fathers of Australia, and nobody knew who he was).

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No, you shouldn't be surprised if your wife asks you as her interests are different from yours.

I can't understand why it is so different from adapting into Italian or German society. If I went to live in Italy for example and had no interest in learning about their arts and someone said to me in disbelief, "What, you don't know x?! He is so famous!" I would reply that I had never studied about "x" as I don't have an interest in the arts. On the other hand, I may have an interest in a part of Italian culture that my Italian friend didn't have and he might not know about the "x" that I was talking about.

For example there are many people in New York City who have lived there all their lives and have never once visited the Statue of Liberty or the Empire State Building. Thay may not even know how many stories the building has and they are University educated. Does this make them ignorant? No, as it was just not an interest of theirs. But if they do not know where the Statue of Liberty came from and why it stands in New York Harbor than I would say they are ignorant as everyone should know this basic information. I'm sure there are also many educated people who cannot tell you the GDP of New York City or per capita income as it is not in their interest and is not a basic educational requirement.

I would guess that it is the same in any country, even Japan. So, if I say something that is basic to me because of my interest in, say, Japanese history, about the Yoritomo family and my Japanese friend doesn't know it, it would not surprise me. But, if he didn't know that Kyoto use to be the ancient capitol of Japan, for example, than I would be surprised and think he was ignorant.

Criticism is perfectly fine, just being rude and impolite for the sake of causing offense, thats where the line is drawn.

Im quite happy to criticise many things, not just japan.

I don't think the poll is complete. I agree with the first answer, but as a perpetual student, when learning critisism in the form of questioning as in why... or how come... is used to gain knowledge of a situation. This is good to gain clarity of a forum. I don't mind if someone critisizes the culture of the country I live in, hell I do it. I would like to be told if I am being preceived as bashing or critisizing another culture. Then I would like to be taught what my bashing preception really meant to the person of the said culture.

Pachipro said:

Are they ignorant? Not really, unless they do not know the basics that everyone, from high school drop-outs to university educated should know, like who our founding fathers were or who is the vice-president of the US and such or the mayor of the town. These types I would rather not associate with.

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I think that the problem is that I come from a society where the exigencies regarding "cultural knowledge" are much higher than in most other countries, and Japan may well be at the bottom of the scale in the developed world in this regard (difficult to say whether the US or Australia are before or after, as the educational gap are much bigger there than in homogenous and "everyone-knows-about-the-same" Japan).

I can't understand why it is so different from adapting into Italian or German society.

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Probably because Italian and German people have higher exigencies about cultural knowledge. I had a hard time in Australia though. With British people, only faced blatant ignorance among the "lower classes", even about their own mother tongue. I met people who couldn't understand any word a bit formal that I used (I tried writing it down, as I thought it may be a pronuciation problem, but they had never seen the words before. I forgot what they were, but one of them was "mausoleum"; I used this word to talk about the Taj Mahal when I was in India with some British tourists I had met on the way).

But, if he didn't know that Kyoto use to be the ancient capitol of Japan, for example, than I would be surprised and think he was ignorant.

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I guess it's just a matter of education system and cultural dispositions. I don't say people should know about their prefecture's GDP, but I can't believe that some Japanese believe that Argentina is in Europe, Napoleon was a medieval knight in armour (sic !) or can't name even 2/3 of Japan's prefectures. Likewise, I would be amazed if a US citizen didn't know that Montana or Delaware were the name of a US states or thought that New York were their capital (such people exist ! I have met some). I can't think of anyone in my country (or most European countries) lacking such basic knowledge.

"Mausoleum" is a lovely word.... How sad people hadn't heard of it... I think I'm not especially well-educated but I knew that word... I don't know where from...

Anyway, what I really wanted to say, it doesn't belong here so much, but I wanted to pat on the back the forum moderators who speedily banned a recent Japan-basher. Nice one mods.

Actually it was the first time on here I encountered a purely mindless Japan-basher - most people at least take a little time to reason their arguments.

Having lived here for 2.5 years, I've come across the following beliefs about complaining and Japan:

• Anything goes. ***** as much as you want, when you want, where you want. Nobody will stop you.
• Bitching to foreigners will be theraputic, as generally everyone piles on their complaints, you have a giant bitchfest, and it's very mollifying.
• Bitching to Japanese will simply get you more frustrating, because bitching is not very Japanese, and Japanese people in general tend to get a tad defense when you start shitting on their country for no apparent reason.
• Discussing problems with Japan with Japanese is the best. They agree, and crap on their own country more than the most unruly group of foreigners could, with more poignant complaints, and more passion behind them.

It took me a while to figure these out. I would ***** about discrimination, but because of my lack of social graces, I wasn't adept at complaining in a Japanese way which means it didn't work out so well. I'd just get complaints back at me, because of the way I was talking.

For instance, the previously mentioned 4 foreigner rule in baseball (you can only have 4 foreigners on a baseball team)... If I said, "Gee, that blows, because the level of play sucks" then I get complaints. If I say, "Gee, if the Hanshin Tigers had another player like George Arias, then they may have won the Nippon Series!" then I get a slew of complaints about the 4 foreigner rule, and the underperforming of Japanese Hanshin players.

It's just the nature of the beast. We want to complain in our way, but get poor responses, and then ***** about the responses we got as opposed to what we wanted to get. ***** their way, and you get some buddies who hate the same things. Dislike governor Ishihara? The Japaense do too! Dislike the sound trucks during election weeks? You don't hold a candle to your bartender who is asleep from 4am-noon!

And then you start to realize that bitching is fine, but far more theraputic when you do it the right way. Everyone ******* about their own countries with their countrymen, but how many times have you heard a bitter American lash out at people who bash America even if they would have made the same comment? How many times have you heard someone say, "How could Americans be so stupid as to elect Bush?" and have someone who despises Bush argue that Americans aren't stupid, and try to berate the person for a comment they mostly agree with...

Point is, anything goes. Restricting bitching would only cause a lot more people to lose it in Japan. But if you want to be taken seriously, then don't ***** to Japanese, or ***** in a Japanese way about Japan to the Japanese for better results.

budd said:

if a japanese person come into this forum and post a thread on why america sux, nobody betta say nothin
all i'm sayin

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Ditto that times 100.

If you can't take someones criticism on your own country, then it's wrong for you to bash someone elses.

Also, if you find it necessary to criticize every little aspect without sufficient evidence why for example, "Japan sucks", then your argument is insubstantial. In any good paper you might write for a College class, you have a thesis and argue that based on facts. That, like everyone knows, gives your paper a cohesive and valid argument - which can have either a positive or negative opinion/outlook (this is if you are writing a persuasive essay - even if you are writing a persuasive essay, one needs substantial evidence to support his or her own thesis).

Senseiman came up with an interesting comment. Here in Jland they have a much more heightened sense of of nationality...Why???? Anyway....How many times have you experienced a conversation with just a regular citizen of this country like this:
Ao you likeu sushi?
You: No not really.
A: Ahhh you donto like Japan

Retarded or what?

celtician said:

How many times have you experienced a conversation with just a regular citizen of this country like this:
A: Do you likeu sushi?
You: No not really.
A: Ahhh you donto like Japan

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Strangely, I've never experienced anything like that.

celtician said:

Anyway....How many times have you experienced a conversation with just a regular citizen of this country like this:
A: Do you likeu sushi?
You: No not really.
A: Ahhh you donto like Japan

Retarded or what?

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I have never even heard of a conversation like this EXCEPT--

There is a kind of joke that I've heard Japanese people use amongst themselves, and I use it too, when talking in Japanese from time to time.

It goes something like this:

A-san (Japanese person) says something like, "Believe it or not, but I've never (insert something Japanese).

B-san (another Japanese person) says, "Really? Are you sure you're Japanese?"

It's not the same as your example, but it's what I know. Remember, sometimes something that sounds racist or discriminating is the same kind of joke that Japanese would use amongst themselves. Does that excuse the comment? It does with me, but that's just one man's opinion.

I had something to say here... but changed my mind.

I guess what I find 'annoying' in Japan is sometimes the attempt to justify not complaining about something even though you have provided evidence with links to articles, etc. and are knowledgable about your topic area, and yet someone gets bashed for stating there is a problem concerning that area in Japan and how you think it could be solved. Now sometimes you get into an expansion comparing this situation in Japan compared to other countries, but sometimes you wish people's anwers were not just 'oh, you don't know enough Japanese' or 'you're not Japanese, so how would you know' (both of which seem to be common slogans used even by Japanophiles here in Japan).

Beyond that, people will complain, and Pierro Le Fuo's comments really ring true for me. I just find it difficult to get Japanese people to even recognize a problem sometimes, with them sometimes taking the stance that 'only foreigners complain about it, so it is a foreign problem'!

No way

senseiman said:

In another thread (Why does Japan suck so much) the issue of whether or not a foreigner should criticize Japan was raised. One poster said that it is inappropriate for someone to criticize someone elses country, while I felt that it was perfectly reasonable to do so, so long as you could back up what you were saying.
What do you think? Is it OK for foreigners to 'bash' Japan, and if so how far can you go before you go too far?

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Is it okay for illegal immigrants who illegally snuck into the U.S. to scream for justice whenever they don't get their way ?

Should foreigner living in Japan bash Japan just because they are not treated as equals ?

Japan has the highest standard of living than any country on earth in my opinion and if I had my Druthers on the matter no one would be allowed to Japan Bash.

As foreigners you are guest. If you have something good to say then say it, but to criticize the machine is trifling.