Japan acted worse than Germany during WWII

[Maciamo]

So should China, celtician. China should revise its textbooks. Tell of the communist atrocities in the early years of the PRC, tell of the annexation of Tibet and how it wasn't rightly theirs. Why is China extempt from writing lies in their textbooks and at the same time telling Japan to revise theirs. Its not fair.

Funny how China and Japan are similar after all ! The main difference is that China is improving fast !

 

[kkkktttt]

Funny how China and Japan are similar after all ! The main difference is that China is improving fast !

Maciamoさん、日本の学校教科書の記述で、「嘘」の部分を是非とも具体的にあげてください。
もっと具体的で理論的な討論をしましょう。

感情的な議論ならば他のサイトでもうんざりするほど行われています。あなたの主催するこのサイトを他には見られないレベルの高いものとするためにも、ぜひともご自身の語学力を生かしてください。お願いします。

 

[Maciamo]

Maciamoさん、日本の学校教科書の記述で、「嘘」の部分を是非とも具体的にあげてください。
もっと具体的で理論的な討論をしましょう。

感情的な議論ならば他のサイトでもうんざりするほど行われています。あなたの主催するこのサイトを他には見られないレベルの高いものとするためにも、ぜひともご自身の語学力を生かしてください。お願いします。

No need to get angry. I never said that Japanese textbooks had lies in them. It's just that the writers chose not to mention or not give details embarrassing facts, which are usually found in European (also German) textbooks. How many of the 33 official history textbooks give explanations about the biological experiments of Unit 731, mass plunder, rapes and killings of the Japanese Imperial Army, actually show pictures or videos of them, talk about the harsh treatments of POW's, about sexual slavery (aka comfort women), and slave labour used by such companies as Mitsui and Mitsubishi ? All this is explained in European textbooks about the Nazi. We are shown horrible videos and photos of concentration camps, and some schools have school trips to Auschwitz or other concentrations camps. Is there even a single school in Japan that shows such pictures and videos or has school trips to Nanking, Unit 731 or other sites? As long as the Japanese will avoid showing this and clearly explaining their responsibility in schools, Japan will not be considered to have done enough to be respectable again in the eyes of the world. Germany and Austria have done it. Why can't Japan do it, even 60 years after the end of the war? My understanding is that it is because Japanese politicians/people are closer in their way of thinking to Communist China than to Europe. That is only what I wanted to say. It is not an emotional argument (感情的な議論) as you claim. Just how things are.

I have just posted a poll to see how many people agree with me about the content of the textbooks.

 

[kkkktttt]

No need to get angry. I never said that Japanese textbooks had lies in them.

別に怒ってないですよ？私は具体的資料に基づいた客観的な議論の方がより実りのあるものになると言っているだけです。
日本の歴史教科書について議論されるとき、一体どれだけの人が日本の教科書を実際に読んだことがあると思いますか？
中国や欧米のメディアの記者がこれらを報道する際、一体どれだけの人が実際に問題の教科書に目を通したことがあると思いますか？
あなたは、日本人が中国の教育についてよく知らずにその批判をしている状態を「洗脳」だと言っていましたが、あなたの論理を敷衍すれば、この問題は世界中のほとんどの人が「洗脳」状態で論じていることになるのです。

今朝のテレビの時事討論番組で、日中外相会談を終えた日本の町村外務大臣が出演していたのですが、
会談の際、中国の武大偉外務次官に対して、「失礼ですが、あなたは日本の歴史教科書を実際にお読みになったことがありますか？日本の教科書は過去の侵略を美化などしてなどいませんよ？わたしは文部大臣を二度経験したこともあるから、日本の教科書は全部読んでいます」と質問したそうです。
外務次官の答えは、「読んだことはない」だったそうです。
中国の外務次官でさえこうなんです。

もちろん、読んだ上で批判すべきところがあるかもしれません。ただ、問題となっているものを具体的に取り上げないで議論をすれば、それはいきおい観念的なものとなってしまい、両者の相互理解は難しくなるのではないですか？そうなれば議論は感情的なものとなってしまうでしょう。私が言いたかったことはそういうことです。


前の文書を受けた上で「Funny how China and Japan are similar after all」となるならば、引用文の主語をChina→Japanと変換することも可能ですね？「日本のやっていることは中国のやっていることと同じ」なんですから。
とするならば、あなたは、「Japan is exempt from writing lies in their textbooks and at the same time telling China to revise theirs」と言っていると受け取られても仕方がないと思いますが？
ですから、私は、あなたに、具体的に日本が「writing」している教科書のどこが「lies」なのかと尋ねたわけです。具体的に指摘してくれれば、そこから議論が出来るでしょ？

まあ、この点は、「lies」ではないとあなたも認めているので、もうよいでしょう。

It's just that the writers chose not to mention or not give details embarrassing facts, which are usually found in European (also German) textbooks. How many of the 33 official history textbooks give explanations about the biological experiments of Unit 731, mass plunder, rapes and killings of the Japanese Imperial Army, actually show pictures or videos of them, talk about the harsh treatments of POW's, about sexual slavery (aka comfort women), and slave labour used by such companies as Mitsui and Mitsubishi ? All this is explained in European textbooks about the Nazi. We are shown horrible videos and photos of concentration camps, and some schools have school trips to Auschwitz or other concentrations camps.

わたしは、他のスレッドでも書いたとおり、「ドイツ」による「ユダヤ人虐殺」に対する歴史教育ついては、世界の手本になるものだと思っています。

ちなみに、歴史の授業では、検定された教科書に加えて、副教材として「資料集」などを用いるのが一般的です。わたしの場合も「資料集」と「図説・写真集」を用いた授業を受けました。
被害の写真などもこの副教材に載っていたのを記憶しています。ちなみに、これらの副教材は文部科学省による検定を必要としないため、編集者の「個性」がより顕著に表れます。
あなた自身が欧州の例であげているのと同じく、日本でも歴史の授業は教科書のみで行われるのではありません。

ただし、中国の反日デモなどで参加者は「日本の歴史教科書は侵略の歴史を美化している」と批判しています。
私は、日本の教科書は過去の侵略戦争を「美化」しているとは思いません。「詳しくない」は「量的」な問題ですが、「美化」は「質的」な問題です。
もし、この点に置いて異論がおありならば、「日本による戦争」を「美化」している「具体的な記述」をあげて反論してください。

Is there even a single school in Japan that shows such pictures and videos or has school trips to Nanking, Unit 731 or other sites? As long as the Japanese will avoid showing this and clearly explaining their responsibility in schools, Japan will not be considered to have done enough to be respectable again in the eyes of the world.

また、「school trips」についてですが、地続きの欧州と異なって、日本は外国に簡単に「school trips」することは出来ませんが、中には中国や韓国へ「反省の旅」をする学校もありますよ。
下にその一例を挙げておきます。
大阪府立箕面高校国際教養科９７年度中国修学旅行に関する報告
Digital Chosunilbo (Japanese Edition) : Daily News in Japanese About Korea

また、一般の旅行客についてですが、ニューヨーク・タイムズ元記者のインタビュー記事で、記者自身が述べているとおり、南京における「南京大虐殺記念館」の訪問者の多くは「日本人」です。
「私は昨年、妻といっしょに見学しました。結婚50周年の記念旅行の途中でした。その博物館にははっきりと犠牲者の数が30万だったと書かれているのですね。見学にきている人の大多数が日本人なのにはやや意外な感じがしました」
Re: だから？ 南京大虐殺なかったっていうの？ まさか？ 木田貴常

とりあえず、ご自分の意見を固める前に、ご自身で調べてみるなり、こちらで質問してみるなりしてみては？私が、あなたの議論を「感情的」だといったのも、このような点が気になったからです。
下のスレッドでも、明かな「自己矛盾」を起こしていますね。

また、あなたは天皇が中国に対して謝罪した事実についても知りませんでした。少し調べれば簡単に分かることなのに。

立場の相違は埋めようがないかもしれませんが、論理矛盾は立場の違いを超えて問題でしょう。

Germany and Austria have done it. Why can't Japan do it, even 60 years after the end of the war ?

いずれにせよ、「ドイツ」による「ユダヤ人に対する虐殺の歴史」に関する歴史教育とは比較にならないですね。
この点、今回の反日デモをきっかけに、日本政府から中国側に対して歴史教育の共同研究を提案したそうですから、その成果に期待したいと思います。
また、より印象を深めるためには良質の映像資料などを制作することも必要かと思います。


ところで、人類の歴史的犯罪はなにも日本とドイツのみによって行われたわけではありません。
また、ここで問題となっているのは「加害」の歴史のはずです。自国の「被害」の歴史についてならば、日本人もよく知っているでしょう？

フランスにおけるヴィシー政権下のように、他の欧州諸国もナチス・ドイツによるユダヤ人迫害に協力した歴史を有しています。
ところで、欧州各国が行っている「ユダヤ人虐殺授業」とは、この「ナチスへの加担」の歴史をどのように教えているのですか？自国もまたユダヤ人虐殺の加害者なのだという側面に対する教育もしているのでしょうか？

フランスの場合、以下のような指摘がなされています。自国のアイデンティティにも関わる深い葛藤があるようですね。
http://www.kyoto-su.ac.jp/~konokatu/kuroda(05-1-25

アルジェリアとの関係についても同様の葛藤が見られますね？
ディプロ2001-2 - L'histoire expurgee de la guerre d'Algerie


また、植民地支配の歴史についてですが。
昨年、英国のHarry王子がナチスの制服姿で仮装パーティーに出席した写真がサン紙に大きく掲載され、英国のみならずヨーロッパ全土に波紋を広げましたね？

これを受けて、BBCは昨年12月、英国の16歳以上の4000人を対象にホロコーストに関する世論調査を実施した結果、アウシュビッツの名前すら一度も聞いたことがないと答えたのが全体の45％にのぼりました。35歳未満では60％を超え、若者の間でホロコーストに関する知識が乏しくなる傾向が顕著だったことが明らかになりました。
アウシュビッツ収容所を

つまり、
「All this is explained in European textbooks about the Nazi. We are shown horrible videos and photos of concentration camps, and some schools have school trips to Auschwitz or other concentrations camps」
にもかかわらず、このありさまなのです。

もっとも、イギリス人にとって、「ナチス・ドイツ」による「ユダヤ人迫害」の歴史は、「第三者の被害」の歴史であって、「加害者としての歴史」である日本の侵略戦争に対する歴史教育と対比することは出来ません。

この点、このことが報道された際、ほとんど問題とされず驚いたことがあります。それは、この「仮装パーティー」のそもそもの「仮装のテーマ」についてです。
「植民地主義者とアフリカ原住民」です。
虐殺されていった「アフリカ原住民」にとって、「植民地主義者」とは「ユダヤ人にとってのヒトラー」と異ならないでしょう。そういう意味で、Harry王子仮装は、本来のテーマからそれほどズレてはいなかったのかもしれません。

「仮装パーティー」というのは、いわば「おふざけ」でしょう？しかも、このパーティーに参加していたのは貴族・上流階級の子弟達です。いわば、「植民地主義者」の直接の子孫達なんですよ。

また、私が他のスレッドでも述べたように、欧州によるアフリカ諸国に対する植民地の歴史は未だ完全には精算されていません。参加者の中にも、一族が、植民地支配に由来する広大な農場などをアフリカに有する者もいるでしょう。

自国の「加害者としての歴史」について、おそらくはイギリスにおける最高レベルの教育を受けてきた若者達の「歴史認識」がいかほどかを知るよい例だと思いますがいかがでしょう。

この点については、下の記事も参考になると思います。
Wayback Machine

My understanding is that it is because Japanese politicians/people are closer in their way of thinking to Communist China than to Europe.

日本と欧州が本当にそれほど違うのか、以下のサイトをご参考の上、「具体的」に反論してください。
日韓条約、外交文書公開 欧米の植民地支配と謝罪 East Asia News Watch/ウェブリブログ

わたしは、このサイトの趣旨に「他者の罪責をあげて自己の責任の希釈化を図る意図」が読んでとれ、この点賛同しかねます。

しかし、日本を批判する旧欧州列強が、実は日本と同様の問題を抱えているという主張については首肯する点が認められると思います。


ちなみに、私の立場は、現在の日本ではおそらく「中道」にあたると思います。
あなたの立場は、お国や、あなたが過ごしたことのある欧州においてどのような位置を占めるのですか？
ちなみに、日本の保守言論よると、あなたのような立場は、欧州ではむしろ支配的であるそうですが、これは正しいですか？

もしもこの議論に目を通しておられる他の欧米出身の方がいらっしゃたら、その方のご意見をいただきたいと思います。

 

[Hiroshi66]

Translation please?

Maciamo - China is improving fast? That's kinda funny. As long as China is in Tibet and Turkestan it is in no way improving.

Also - I wonder why the two red squares next to my name are there. Why am I being infamous? Because I am speaking out against the Chinese illegal occupation of Tibet and Turkestan? Or because I believe in Japan and the fact that it has come a long way in 60 years. Just because China is the new powerhouse of Asia doesn't mean it is exempt from all this.

 

[Maciamo]

Maciamo - China is improving fast? That's kinda funny. As long as China is in Tibet and Turkestan it is in no way improving.

China has many issues at hand. The economy is growing fast, people enjoy more freedom and the country becomes more open to the world every year. That's quite a lot of improvement in the last 2 decades, I think.

Also - I wonder why the two red squares next to my name are there. Why am I being infamous?

Did you read about the reputation points system ?

 

[Hiroshi66]

Those improvements are shattered because of atrocities the Chinese commit. The student massacres of 1989, the ongoing cultural genocide in Tibet, Mongolia, and Turkestan...

 

[Maciamo]

Those improvements are shattered because of atrocities the Chinese commit. The student massacres of 1989, the ongoing cultural genocide in Tibet, Mongolia, and Turkestan...

These atrocities are more than 10 or 15 years old. The situation has jsutly been improving since then, and even much more since the cultural revolution (well at thta point there could only have been improvement ).

 

[Hiroshi66]

Maciamo, today at 18:56.

That's quite a lot of improvement in the last 2 decades, I think.

Maciamo, today at 20:39.

These atrocities are more than 10 or 15 years old.

First off, Tianmen did happen in the last two decades. Second off, the cultural genocide in Chinese annexed territories is ongoing, its happening at this very hour.

Pardom me for asking, but why do you support the PRC so much? The ROC has shown far more progress than the mainland PRC. The PRC's actions since 1949 remind me of pre-war Japan in some ways.

 

[Maciamo]

Maciamo, today at 18:56.

That's quite a lot of improvement in the last 2 decades, I think.

Maciamo, today at 20:39.

These atrocities are more than 10 or 15 years old.

First off, Tianmen did happen in the last two decades. Second off, the cultural genocide in Chinese annexed territories is ongoing, its happening at this very hour.

So what ? Do you have a problem with language or what ? 2 decades ago student demonstrations were met with tanks at Tiananmen Square. This year, dozens of demonstrations take place and nobody gets killed. Isn't that an improvement compared to 20 or 15 years ago ?

Pardom me for asking, but why do you support the PRC so much?

You visibly have no clue about my feelings. I prefer Japan to the PRC; that is why I live in Japan, not in the PRC, and that is also why I don't want Japan to behave like the PRC. So far all your posts have had for aim to try to justify that Japan was as bad as the PRC because it didn't need to apologise and take its responsibilities the sam way as Germany did. So the way I understand your posts (or Eisuke, kkkktttt, miles7tp and others's) is that you want Japan to look politically challenged like the PRC. For me there is no question that at the moment Japan is politically retarded, and that many Japanese people are as brainwashed against China or irresponsible toward their past as Chinese people are brainwashed against Japan and irresponsible toward their own past. That doesn't need to be debate. It's fair enough, and recent discussion on this forum have only confirmed it.

It is justly what makes me angry because I do not want Japanese politicians or so many ordinary people to be as backward as they are in their way of thinking now. I only hope for progress, but all my attempts at showing that Japan should evolve and mature are met with criticism from the very people I am trying to change. That makes me feel so desperate about them... and I feel that all those Japanese people sustaining that Japan is not to blame creating tensions with its neighbours, that Japanese textbooks are ok and that politicians can visit Yasukuni if they want, are so deeply indoctrinated (or stupid, but I don't want to say that) that there will be no way to change them. They are "lost" in some way, and will live all their lives without admitting their country's past and present mistakes, always agreeing with the politicians and the rest of the herd...

It makes me very angry because :
- first, I didn't know that so many Japanese people were like that, so set in justifying their past rather than accepting it (I thought that it was ignorance about their past, but I recently realised that it wasn't)
- secondly, I don't want to live in Japan if it is to be surrounded by revisionists or neo-facists in disguise supporting the LDP, which chose a class-A war criminal as first PM and whose members worship other war criminals at Yasukuni-jinja.

I understand that many Japanese are not like that (e.g. my wife), but unfortunately it is not by coincidence that the LDP has been in power since its creation by war criminals (other contributed too, like yakuza Yoshio Kodama). I have also realised in the last few weeks, while discussing about the recent anti-Japanese demonstartions in China with dozens of Japanese people, some of whom I have known for 1 or 2 years, that their position was totally in line with the LDP politicians I criticised. I didn't expect it from most of them. It was a shock. It's like discovering that most of your friends and colleagues are secretly neo-nazis but look so innocent on the outside. I hurts my humanistic feelings. But well, Japan has no tradition of humanism or philosophical enlightenment, so maybe it is no wonder after all that those people should still think the way they do.

 

[kkkktttt]

So what? Do you have a problem with language or what ? 2 decades ago student demonstrations were met with tanks at Tiananmen Square. This year, dozens of demonstrations take place and nobody gets killed. Isn't that an improvement compared to 20 or 15 years ago ?.

天安門事件でのデモの抗議対象は共産党政府でしょ？
今回のデモの抗議対象は日本
この差が分からないですか？

中国政府は、台湾の独立阻止に関しては武力の行使も辞さないと明らかにしています。
その点を考えれば、共産党政権の存立そのものを揺るがすデモが行われたとしたら、中国政府がどのような行動に出るのか分からないですね。

また、今回の反日デモに対しては、欧米のメディアも一様に、中国政府に対して厳しい眼を向けています。これらの言論機関も「ネオ・ナチ」になるのですか？

ところで、私は日本の侵略戦争に対しては何ら弁解していないですよ。あるならば「具体的」に指摘してください。
私がここで主張しているのは、あなた自身が日本の保守右翼言論の論調と同様の論法で「欧州の歴史的責任」を回避ないし希釈化しようとしているからなのです。
いわば、あなたの日本の右翼に対する「怒り」は一種の「近親憎悪」ですよ。

ところであなた自身は、欧州では右派なのか左派なのか、この点をなぜ答えてくれないのですか？何か不都合があるのですか？

I hurts my humanistic feelings.

原爆投下を肯定する「humanist」にお目にかかることが出来るとは思いもよりませんでした。

 

[Maciamo]

窶弖ﾋ??窶禿･ﾅｽ窶毒陳鞘?堙??堙姑断ﾆ停?壺?堙個抗窶ｹc窶佚篠湘帚?堙坂?ｹﾂ､ﾅｽY窶怡ﾂ青ｭ窶｢{窶堙??堋ｵ窶堙･ﾂ？
ﾂ債｡窶ｰﾃｱ窶堙姑断ﾆ停?壺?堙個抗窶ｹc窶佚篠湘帚?堙坂?愿ｺ窶怒
窶堋ｱ窶堙個債ｷ窶堋ｪ窶｢ﾂｪ窶堋ｩ窶堙ｧ窶堙遺?堋｢窶堙??堋ｷ窶堋ｩﾂ？

That's true, but nevertheless Chinese people enjoy more freedom (including political) than they did 20 years ago. Just look at what is posted on the Internet, without strict supervision or sanction from the Communist Party. We do have quite a few members from the PRC.

窶吮??ﾂ坂?伉青ｭ窶｢{窶堙債、窶佚､ﾋ徘窶堙娯?愿??板ｧ窶亘ﾅｽ~窶堙嫁?ﾃ問?堋ｵ窶堙??堙坂?｢ﾂ絶?氾坂?堙個行ﾅｽg窶堙?ﾅｽﾂｫ窶堋ｳ窶堙遺?堋｢窶堙??督ｾ窶堙ｧ窶堋ｩ窶堙俄?堋ｵ窶堙??堋｢窶堙懌?堋ｷﾂ。
窶堋ｻ窶堙娯?彑窶堙ｰﾂ考窶堋ｦ窶堙ｪ窶堙篠、窶ｹﾂ､ﾅｽY窶怡ﾂ青ｭﾅ陳?窶堙娯?伉ｶ窶板ｧ窶堋ｻ窶堙娯?堙?窶堙娯?堙ｰ窶派窶堙ｩ窶堋ｪ窶堋ｷﾆ断ﾆ停?壺?堋ｪﾂ行窶堙ｭ窶堙ｪ窶堋ｽ窶堙??堋ｵ窶堋ｽ窶堙ｧﾂ、窶吮??ﾂ坂?伉青ｭ窶｢{窶堋ｪ窶堙??堙娯?堙ｦ窶堋､窶堙按行窶慊ｮ窶堙可出窶堙ｩ窶堙娯?堋ｩ窶｢ﾂｪ窶堋ｩ窶堙ｧ窶堙遺?堋｢窶堙??堋ｷ窶堙仰。

You can always find undemocratic things going on in China. Much more than in Japan (although Japan is not a model of democracy). My point was that the situation in China has been improving, while nothing ever changes in Japanese politics. In the US, the political situation and democracy have been considerably worsening since Bush came to power. Same in Italy with Berlusconi, and I'd say even in the UK with Blair. France is neither improving nor really worsening. Could be better. 14 years of Chirac is hardly what I call democracy. Almost monarchy. Do I need to continue with other countries ? You never seem to realise that when I criticise Japan it doesn't mean it's better everywhere else, even in Europe where I come from. The problem is that many Japanese on this forum are overreacting to my criticism of Japan. You just can't take on criticism of your country like some Americans. (see this thread) Typical of isolated countries. Europeans like to criticise anything that is wrong, anywhere (even, or especially in their own country).

窶堙懌?堋ｽﾂ、ﾂ債｡窶ｰﾃｱ窶堙娯?敖ｽ窶愿ｺﾆ断ﾆ停?壺?堙俄?佚寂?堋ｵ窶堙??堙債、窶ｰﾂ｢窶｢ﾃ??堙姑陳?断ﾆ達ﾆ但窶堙?ﾋ?ｪ窶罵窶堙可、窶吮??ﾂ坂?伉青ｭ窶｢{窶堙俄?佚寂?堋ｵ窶堙?陳ｵ窶堋ｵ窶堋｢ﾅ?ﾃ｡窶堙ｰﾅ津ｼ窶堋ｯ窶堙??堋｢窶堙懌?堋ｷﾂ。窶堋ｱ窶堙ｪ窶堙ｧ窶堙固陳ｾﾋ彑窶ｹ@ﾅ?ﾃ問?堙?ﾂ「ﾆ値ﾆ棚ﾂ・ﾆ段ﾆ蛋ﾂ」窶堙俄?堙遺?堙ｩ窶堙娯?堙??堋ｷ窶堋ｩﾂ？

Sorry, I don't understand what you mean here. :?

窶堙??堋ｱ窶堙ｫ窶堙?、ﾅｽ窶樞?堙坂?愿ｺ窶怒窶堙個侵窶板ｪﾂ静ｭ窶侏??堙俄?佚寂?堋ｵ窶堙??堙坂?ｰﾂｽ窶堙ｧ窶｢ﾃ吮?ｰﾃｰ窶堋ｵ窶堙??堋｢窶堙遺?堋｢窶堙??堋ｷ窶堙ｦﾂ。窶堋?窶堙ｩ窶堙遺?堙ｧ窶堙篠「窶ｹﾃｯ窶佚娯?廬ﾂ」窶堙嫁ｽw窶廢窶堋ｵ窶堙??堋ｭ窶堋ｾ窶堋ｳ窶堋｢ﾂ。

What about our discussion where you compared the Japanese invasion of Asia with European colonialism, Algeria, Vietnam, etc. I felt you were comparing only to justify that Japan had to right to invade Asian countries because Europe did the same. I replied that European colonialism was not as brutal, and not an army with sole purpose to massacre, rape and plunder the local population without brining them anything in return. I explained that most former British colonies decided to keep formal relations with the UK, some even the Queen of England as theirs, because they didn't resent colonialism the way China or Korea resent Japan's much shorter occupation. Then you started arguing that the UK was not so virtuous because it only returned Hong Kong to China so that China could learn the capitalist sytem. That was completely out of note with the original discussion about Japan's responsibility in killing millions of people around Asia.

Why always comparing with France or Britain if not to try to downplay Japan's war atrocities ? Of course France has its own responsibility in the Algerian war of independence, and the PRC has killed millions of its own people under Mao Zedong. But that's not the point of the discussion and I really feel that you were trying to divert the attention somewhere else so that people forget about Japan. It's the same strategy that the other Japanese who argue about the "real" deathtoll of the Nanking Massacre. What's the point ? A massacre is a massacre, no matter if there were 40,000 or 300,000 victims. Arguing about the numbers only make other people angry because it's a way of escaping the issue.

ﾅｽ窶樞?堋ｪ窶堋ｱ窶堋ｱ窶堙?ｽﾃ･窶卍｣窶堋ｵ窶堙??堋｢窶堙ｩ窶堙娯?堙債、窶堋?窶堙遺?堋ｽﾅｽﾂｩﾂ身窶堋ｪ窶愿ｺ窶怒窶堙娯?｢ﾃ崘ｽﾃｧ窶ｰE窶犯椎陳ｾﾋ彑窶堙戸彑窶卍ｲ窶堙??慊ｯ窶罵窶堙戸彑窶邸窶堙?「窶ｰﾂ｢ﾂ州窶堙娯?氾ｰﾅｽj窶廬ﾂ静凪?戮ﾂ」窶堙ｰ窶ｰﾃｱ窶敕ｰ窶堙遺?堋｢窶堋ｵﾅ?ﾃｳﾅｽﾃ溪?ｰﾂｻ窶堋ｵ窶堙ｦ窶堋､窶堙??堋ｵ窶堙??堋｢窶堙ｩ窶堋ｩ窶堙ｧ窶堙遺?堙娯?堙??堋ｷﾂ。

Am I trying to avoid Europe's historical responsibility ? Not at all. I totally accept what happened. I can easily take a neutral point of view about countries like France, the UK, Spain, etc. as I am not more from these countries than from Japan.

窶堋｢窶堙ｭ窶堙篠、窶堋?窶堙遺?堋ｽ窶堙娯?愿ｺ窶怒窶堙娯?ｰE窶犯停?堙俄?佚寂?堋ｷ窶堙ｩﾂ「窶悳窶堙ｨﾂ」窶堙才?ｪﾅｽﾃｭ窶堙個「窶ｹﾃ淞親窶佛ｾﾋ?ｫﾂ」窶堙??堋ｷ窶堙ｦﾂ。

What does that mean ? My anger at Japan's right-wing is a kind of "close relative hatred" ?

窶堙??堋ｱ窶堙ｫ窶堙??堋?窶堙遺?堋ｽﾅｽﾂｩﾂ身窶堙債、窶ｰﾂ｢ﾂ州窶堙??堙坂?ｰE窶拮窶堙遺?堙娯?堋ｩﾂ債ｶ窶拮窶堙遺?堙娯?堋ｩﾂ、窶堋ｱ窶堙娯?彑窶堙ｰ窶堙遺?堋ｺ窶愬｡窶堋ｦ窶堙??堋ｭ窶堙ｪ窶堙遺?堋｢窶堙娯?堙??堋ｷ窶堋ｩﾂ？窶ｰﾂｽ窶堋ｩ窶｢s窶徭ﾂ坂?｡窶堋ｪ窶堋?窶堙ｩ窶堙娯?堙??堋ｷ窶堋ｩﾂ？

Sorry it seems that I forgot to answer your question earlier. Am I a right-winger or left-winger in Europe ? Not quite sure. My way of thinking is too complex to be clearly classified in either category. For a few things (free education & health care) I am a left-winger, for others (economic liberalism) I am a right-winger. I am very liberal when it comes to social issues (legalisation of drugs, gay marriage, euthansia, abortion, etc.). I for sure am liberal rather than conservative, but that doesn't place me either on the left or right (depends on the country and political parties). I am not a leftist because I hate bureaucracy and state intervention in the economy. I am not a rightist because I dislike the concept of patriotism, I like to think of the world as one big country (therefore there is no "home" and "abroad", and I can critise the government/society where I am living as if it was always home), don't mind immigrants as long as they adapt and are peaceful. Probably center-left or center-right ?

ﾅ陳ｴ窶敘｡窶愬?窶ｰﾂｺ窶堙ｰﾂ肯窶凖ｨ窶堋ｷ窶堙ｩﾂ「humanistﾂ」窶堙俄?堋ｨ窶禿壺?堙俄?堋ｩ窶堋ｩ窶堙ｩ窶堋ｱ窶堙??堋ｪﾂ出窶藩??堙ｩ窶堙??堙最ｽv窶堋｢窶堙?窶堙ｦ窶堙ｨ窶堙懌?堋ｹ窶堙ｱ窶堙??堋ｵ窶堋ｽﾂ。

I do not approve of the A-bomb. I said it was probably the right decision for Truman (not me ) to use it so as to avoid an even greater number of casualties. This reasoning in itself is humanist. Is it too hard for you to understand that if less people die it is a good thing from a humanistic point of view ? :sorry:

 

[Hiroshi66]

Maciamo, insulting my language ability is beyond the point of this discussion. Minus rep points for that.

I wonder why the PRC isn't shooting upon demonstrators now. Is it because they are demonstrating against Japan and not the dictatorial regime like fifteen years ago?

 

[Hiroshi66]

Bossel, analyzing Chinese riots doesn't prove anything. The PRC is a dictatorial communist regime. We don't see them shooting in an urban riot, but do you know that in Outer China there are still labor camps? Do you tknow that Chiinese police still harass Tibetian monks and Turkish mullahs in Xinjiang just like Mao's troops did fifty years ago?

 

[bossel]

Maciamo, insulting my language ability is beyond the point of this discussion. Minus rep points for that.

You're rather generous with bad rep recently.

About being beyond the point of this discussion: how is your hammering on actions of Chinese related to the question whether Japan acted worse than Germany? Shouldn't you rather compare Germans than Chinese to Japanese?

I wonder why the PRC isn't shooting upon demonstrators now. Is it because they are demonstrating against Japan and not the dictatorial regime like fifteen years ago?

That may be, but since there were anti-government riots where the police also did not shoot, it's safe to say that the situation really has changed.

Edit: Sorry for the confusion. I made a mistake & deleted my previous post to which Hiroshi already reacted. Hiroshi's reaction is on the second part of this post

 

[bossel]

Bossel, analyzing Chinese riots doesn't prove anything.

Well, it proves that obviously something has changed.

The PRC is a dictatorial communist regime.

Dictatorial, yes. Communist, nope.

We don't see them shooting in an urban riot, but do you know that in Outer China there are still labor camps? Do you tknow that Chiinese police still harass Tibetian monks and Turkish mullahs in Xinjiang just like Mao's troops did fifty years ago?

Like Mao's troops? I doubt that. But there is absolutely no doubt that the Chinese government is still highly oppressive. I don't think, anybody here doubts that (even our Chinese members, well..., perhaps except for the occasional Chinese nationalist).

 

[Hiroshi66]

I think you've all been generous with bad rep to me recently too. And I have a reason for doing so.

Gee bossel, you seem to keep a record of everybody's posts! At least this has to do something with the discussion. Personal insults have nothing to do with this at all. Be fair.

 

[bossel]

I think you've all been generous with bad rep to me recently too.

Well, now I'm on the brink of actually giving you some bad rep. I can't remember giving you any before. You should be a bit careful with accusations. There may have been others, who did, but they probably had reasons to do so, too.

 

[Hiroshi66]

Please go ahead if you wish to do so. I'm on the brink of actually leaving this forum.

How about we all give our positions on what should happen? I think we're all confusing ourselves.

I believe Japan should apologize to all countries it harassed during World War II. Koizumi should still go to Yasukuni, since it is a shrine for honoring soldiers who died in Japanese history, not only the 20 war criminals. At the same time, Japan should mention in its apology to the PRC that it believes that China should apologize to its people for its commited atrocities. If not, Koizumi should go all out and call the PRC hypocritical.

What about you?

 

[kkkktttt]

I replied that European colonialism was not as brutal, and not an army with sole purpose to massacre, rape and plunder the local population without brining them anything in return.

いいわけです。欧州列強の罪責は「日本と同等」です。われわれは、ともに帝国主義国としての罪責を負っているのです。

あなた自身が言っているではありませんか。

A massacre is a massacre, no matter if there were 40,000 or 300,000 victims. Arguing about the numbers only make other people angry because it's a way of escaping the issue.

そもそも、あなたは、欧州列強の植民地支配の実態と、その惨禍に対する反省の念の欠如についてあまりに認識がなさ過ぎます。
Wayback Machine

この点も含めて、あなたがまだ答えていない私の投稿がありますからご覧ください。

Japan acted worse than Germany during WWII

So should China, celtician. China should revise its textbooks. Tell of the communist atrocities in the early years of the PRC, tell of the annexation of Tibet and how it wasn't rightly theirs. Why is China extempt from writing lies in their textbooks and at the same time telling Japan to revise...

jref.com

 

[bossel]

What about you?

Have already posted this: here.

 

[Hiroshi66]

If I click on another link my computer will freeze, so I'll wait until I get my new laptop and then read that.

 

[Maciamo]

そもそも、あなたは、欧州列強の植民地支配の実態と、その惨禍に対する反省の念の欠如についてあまりに認識がなさ過ぎます。

There is one thing you seem not to understand. It's not because I accuse Japan that I do not also accuse Western countries. I accuse any government who haven't dealt with their past properly. I don't mind accusing my own government, because I am not the government. It may be difficult for a Japanese to understand because it has to do with extreme individualism. For me, there is no such thing as a group to which I belong, as opposed to the rest of the world (uchi vs soto). I don't even care about my nationality, which is why I don't like mentioning it - it's irrelevant. I can praise or criticise any government, any individual, regardless of their origins. Governments represent the countries. I can blame a government as a whole, without blaming all that country's people. I can blame people I know, or individual politicians as well. I do criticise many politicians in my own country. I praise others. Same for Japan. You shouldn't see it as an attempt to prove than European people are better than the Japanese or vice versa. It's just not the way I think. In this discussion, I have criticised the LDP, Koizumi, the Ministry of Education, some members of this forum and a few people I have met.

 

[Hiroshi66]

Maciamo ~ Off topic, but where are you from? I was wondering because you say you are French speaking but not from France. Are you possibly from another Francophone nation (Andorra, Belgium, etc.) or a French colony? I was just curious.

 

[Aaron Tan]

Maciamo,i agree what you said and also i like the way of your thinking. when we talk about the history,everyone should off their nation and their personal notion.