Israeli teens murdered

[Hezam]

Well, I figured we couldn't last for ever, but for two guys with very different viewpoints, I think we lasted pretty long.
I assure you that I am not relgious. If my words remind you of the words of the government, it's because I'm drawing the same conclusions from the same information. If I conclude that 2 + 2 = 4, that doesn't mean I'm a mouthpiece for some mathematical society.

International aid to Palestinians - Wikipedia

I can't change your beliefs but i tried to discuss the issue in democratic way without involving my beliefs, but you sticked to your beliefs as israel has the right to exist in palestine even if it means to kick out, kill others, not just that but you are proud of it !
You sticked to the most extremest idea that Jews are in their promised land since 4000 years ago !
You called people who resist 'terrorists' and you claimed that Hamas is the problem because they dont want peace while israeli rejected all peace invitations since 1948 the year of it's creation.
The Arab offered peace many many times but it appears that the only effective method is power against israel.
You kept saying that israel wants peaceful palestinian gov and i kept asking you why did not israel make peace with Arafat and Abbas governments? but you avoided many questions, the questions that matter.
if you think occupation + murdering = historical right and Resistance = Terrorist then i can't help it, It's a conscience issue.

All the more reason not to use it on tunnels. The largest of those terror tunnels are lined with cement.

Also, they don't seem to have any trouble getting guns and other weapons in spite of a blockade.

Most of Hamas weapons are handmade, rockets, bombs etc.

They haven't even built one shelter. I would start where the tunnels are being built. There are places in the south to which they can evacuate. I know it's hell, and if I were them I would hate the Israelis, too. But, I would hate Hamas first.

If Hamas gave up the weapons israel would be occupying the strip by now, shelters are not good as protecting your self with a weapon, You can see what israel is doing in the West Bank, the israeli soldiers are everywhere and there is nothing left from the West bank for palestinians, Just islands like prisions. But Gaza is still in same shape since 1967 because of the resistance, See the map :

As for bombing houses, it's a tragedy, but if that's where the rockets are coming from...
I don't think I could stop a terrorist from firing rockets from near my home, but if I got a warning about a bombing, I'd be gone in a heartbeat.

You are still jsutifying killing people in their own land, in their own houses because you think it's your land since 4000 years ago.

UNWRA has been apologizing for missiles found in UN schools. They are the worst. Maybe Europeans feel like they are paying penance for the Crusades by blaming Israel, but they are doing nothing to stop this conflict. And, as Lozowick wrote, the Palestinians ultimately need to make peace with Israel, not the UN.

Unrwa is a civilian organization, they can do nothing to stop wars, their duty is to save civillians from wars, hunger, ignorance etc, You are attacking one of the best human organizations because they don't support you in your unfair war !
BTW is Missiles story still useful ?

You have said it all, right there. The Middle East agrees with you. This is why the conflict will never end, whether Israel pulls out of Gaza (again) and other territories or not. Whether there is a blockade or not. Israel was created? That's going to be a problem.

1+1= 2 , Occupation + oppression= Resistance.

P.S. This is why it is unlucky to be a Palestinian civilian in this world:



This time, Gaza fighting is 'proxy war' for the Mideast - CNN.com

Those Arab governments will be burned by people sooner or later, Things are changing fast now, Maybe there will be no palestinian state but Islamic state that covers most of Arab world including Palestine, Things are changing anyway, It's good to wait and see.

Cheers

 

[alecgraham]

It seems like you're angry, Hezam. Please don't be angry. Of course there is almost zero chance of changing each other's minds, but that's ok.

I'm not sure where I mentioned 4,000-year-old history or the "Promised Land." I may have, but I don't remember doing so. Could you quote it for me? I'll mention some ancient history now, but it's not that important to me: yes, once the Jews were a people with their own land. Then the Romans came along and massacred most of those pesky Jews methodically in numbers comparable to the destruction of Carthage. Emperor Hadrian renamed the place Palestina, eventually new folks moved in and at some point they kept the name and decided that they'd been living there since Adam and Eve. (No, I don't believe in a literal A & E).

Zorro has his 50-year rule (who cares) and other people have their Biblical Promised Land. All I care about is that Britain gave the Jews a state in '48, the Arabs cried foul and tried to exterminate the Jews from all sides. They've been trying ever since, but they always fail. So far. Someday they may succeed.

You are still jsutifying killing people in their own land, in their own houses because you think it's your land since 4000 years ago.

Nope, not me. I am justifying self-defense, though. What if the Israelis were randomly firing "homemade" rockets at Egypt, and let's say that the Muslim Brotherhood is in power. Should the Muslim Brotherhood just bend over and take it? Or shoudl they take steps to stop the attacks?

The UN gave the Jews the state of Israel. Do you support that?

Unrwa is a civilian organization, they can do nothing to stop wars, their duty is to save civillians from wars, hunger, ignorance etc, You are attacking one of the best human organizations because they don't support you in your unfair war !

I don't think it's my war. I just have opinions about it.
What do you think about the fact that UNRWA tried to teach the Palestinians about the Holocaust and the PL's called it a lie made up by zionists?
Hamas–UNRWA Holocaust dispute - Wikipedia
How does one come to terms with anyone like that?

Occupation + oppression= Resistance.

I suppose this is a chicken-and-egg question. Which came first, the "resistance" or the attempt to destroy Israel and, when that failed, to harm it with terrorism? Because I don't buy the "resistance" excuse. If Gaza were demilitarized, there would be no need to make it like a prison. Then, all these innocent children would have better lives. Do you agree with me on that?

 

[Hezam]

I'm not sure where I mentioned 4,000-year-old history or the "Promised Land." I may have, but I don't remember doing so. Could you quote it for me? I'll mention some ancient history now, but it's not that important to me: yes, once the Jews were a people with their own land. Then the Romans came along and massacred most of those pesky Jews methodically in numbers comparable to the destruction of Carthage. Emperor Hadrian renamed the place Palestina, eventually new folks moved in and at some point they kept the name and decided that they'd been living there since Adam and Eve. (No, I don't believe in a literal A & E).

The people in region (Palestin, Jordan, Lebanon, west part of syria) are Canaanites, There is nothing at all refers to jews existince in the region.
Canaan

Zorro has his 50-year rule (who cares) and other people have their Biblical Promised Land. All I care about is that Britain gave the Jews a state in '48, the Arabs cried foul and tried to exterminate the Jews from all sides. They've been trying ever since, but they always fail. So far. Someday they may succeed.

Britains gave lands that don't belong to british, they gave it to other people that do not belong to it, Where is the right in this ?
Algeria has been under french occupation from 1830 to 1962, It was considered a part of France but it was freed by resistance just like Hamas does now. And french people returned to france. See how good when occupation ends ?

Nope, not me. I am justifying self-defense, though. What if the Israelis were randomly firing "homemade" rockets at Egypt, and let's say that the Muslim Brotherhood is in power. Should the Muslim Brotherhood just bend over and take it? Or shoudl they take steps to stop the attacks?

Why does Hamas fire rockets at israel ? is it not because of the blockade ?
Did not Hamas stated "when israel ends the blockade we will stop firing rockets" ??????????

The UN gave the Jews the state of Israel. Do you support that?

The UN has been and will always be against Arab/Muslim rights, Giving the U.S to Chinese by UN doesn't make it legal or right.

I don't think it's my war. I just have opinions about it.

i appreciate sharing your opinion with us, Truly.

What do you think about the fact that UNRWA tried to teach the Palestinians about the Holocaust and the PL's called it a lie made up by zionists?
Hamas–UNRWA Holocaust dispute - Wikipedia
How does one come to terms with anyone like that?

It's very rude to teach people how their enemy who stole their land, killed their parents, brothers & sisters, Friends, destroyed their homes, blocked food and medicine from them, It's very very rude to teach them how this enemy suffered somewhere by other people before this enemy occupy their land, It's rude to teach them that YOU Arab/Muslim saved jews, hosted them then they declare a nation in your land and did like Nazis did to them, Please tell me, for the sake of your God, What does this story has to do with Unrwa job? What does it mean to teach Palestinians a story like that ? Does it mean you palestinians should suck it and leave your homeland?
Does it mean Its Your fault for saving & hosting Jews in your land ?

I suppose this is a chicken-and-egg question. Which came first, the "resistance" or the attempt to destroy Israel and, when that failed, to harm it with terrorism? Because I don't buy the "resistance" excuse. If Gaza were demilitarized, there would be no need to make it like a prison. Then, all these innocent children would have better lives. Do you agree with me on that?

It seems like you insist that israel is created 3000 years ago, You refuse to admit that israel was created in 1948 which makes everything clear.

Any person would be angry but anger is not effecting my point, i'm still avoiding religious thoughts, It's only a political method of discussion.

regards

 

[alecgraham]

Following up on that guy who claimed (on Instagram) to kill 13 children, he also had a Twitter account subtitled, "the leader who will wipe them all out!" Now it says something about human rights, and there are a lot of tweets about boycotting Israel.

One tweet:

Those who are confused. The Instagram post about killing children has nothing to do with me. Don't be confused. Let's save #Ghaza.

 

[Hezam]

It doesn't change the reality that the majority of jews support wiping Gaza from the map, This war revealed Arab governments' real faces, Arab people needed that more than anything else.
One step back for two steps forward.

 

[alecgraham]

I think I know what you mean about the neighboring Arab governments, but do you really believe think Jews want to "wipe Gaza (off) the map?" Do you think that's what *I* want just because I support the ground operation? At least you know me better than that, Hezam.

I support the destruction of those tunnels and the disarmament of Gaza, yes, even if it means collateral damage (a euphemism for dead innocent women and children). But not extermination.

 

[Hezam]

I think I know what you mean about the neighboring Arab governments, but do you really believe think Jews want to "wipe Gaza (off) the map?" Do you think that's what *I* want just because I support the ground operation? At least you know me better than that, Hezam.

i was talking about Jews in Palestine not your situation, i don't even consider you an 'israeli' .
There is a difference between who live in occupied palestine (israel) and who live somewhere else because those who live in 'israel' are part of the crime.

I support the destruction of those tunnels and the disarmament of Gaza, yes, even if it means collateral damage (a euphemism for dead innocent women and children). But not extermination.

i support the destrustion of israel even if it means collateral damage, Like Salahiddin did and in in the end he (Salahiddin) let crusaders go back home safely, As Hamas did not kill more than 1 civilian who paniced to death not clean hit.
How merciful Hamas is, 1 civilian while israel killed more than 1800 and still killing.
Sad story.....

 

[alecgraham]

You do? You support the destruction of Israel?

 

[Hezam]

You do? You support the destruction of Israel?

Yup. As they support destruction of Arab, The only difference is that Arabs dont kill civilians while israelis do.

 

[Hezam]

And example how israelis want to (Save Gaza):

[video=youtube;OmKDnVYgDP4]

 

[alecgraham]

You're using emotion instead of logic. Schools and even mosques with weapons are going to be hit.
Hamas brought this war on Gaza exactly when they wanted to bring it. They know the Israelis' tendency to hit hard and yet they don't want civilians to flee.

The only difference is that Arabs dont kill civilians while israelis do

You've got it backwards. It it with reluctance that the Israelis kill civilians when they target militants. Hamas kills anyone they can: 1) soldiers, 2) civilians, and 3) their own Palestinian human shields.

 

[Hezam]

You're using emotion instead of logic. Schools and even mosques with weapons are going to be hit.
Hamas brought this war on Gaza exactly when they wanted to bring it. They know the Israelis' tendency to hit hard and yet they don't want civilians to flee.

nope, i'm not angry if that what you mean ^^
And how do you know that Mosques & Schools have weapons inside them? This is not you anymore :/
Besides, Who started the war ? Can you please use logic & evidance !

You've got it backwards. It it with reluctance that the Israelis kill civilians when they target militants. Hamas kills anyone they can: 1) soldiers, 2) civilians, and 3) their own Palestinian human shields.

Hamas hasn't kill any israeli civilian yet. sigh ! why can't you see what's happening on the ground ? oO
Hamas is targeting only soldiers who attack Gaza, Those soldiers decided to take revenge by killing civilians as punishment.

In the begining of this thread you said that israeli man in the video who his father was a general is a ( Good person ) when he said what i'm saying, And you are saying the opposite !!!
Please hold to your words !

 

[alecgraham]

And how do you know that Mosques & Schools have weapons inside them?

You're right. I'm in the States and you're in Saudi Arabia and we can only go by what we read. But even UNWRA apologized to Israel for the stockpile of weapons in a U.S. school. That's straight from UNWRA, so we don't have to worry about whether or not the Israelis made it up.

Could the Israelis falsely state that other weapons are elsewhere? Yes, it's possible. Nobody knows everything that's happening, even the combatants themselves. We do the best we can with the sources we trust.

I, for one, do not trust the Palestinians' casualty count. They have become infamous over the years for grossly exaggerating numbers, particularly of civilian deaths. Jenin is the most obvious example. No, the civilian-to-combatant casualty ratio is closer to 1:1. Of course that's still awful, but in heavily populated Gaza that's about the best that any army could do.

Hamas hasn't kill any israeli civilian yet.

They've only killed one or two Israeli civilians and a Thai guest worker, but it's not for lack of trying. All those rockets, homemade or not, are aimed at the general population. They may be downplayed as "homemade" or even "mere firecrackers", but it's not true. Some of those rockets were imported from Iran, and some are copies of Iranian missiles. Iron Dome has intercepted them over Tel Aviv. This is farther than Hamas has ever gotten before; it used to be just border towns.

My point being, Hamas is trying to kill civilians. They're just not very good at it. Additionally, Hamas is good at making sure there are plenty of Palestinian civilian deaths by not providing shelters or warnings, spending their buiding materials on tunnels instead of shelters as I said before, and instructing civvies to ignore Israeli warnings to flee. You probably won't ever believe this last part but I know it's true. The Saudis and Jordanians know it's true. A lot of people know it to be true.

I'm sure you've seen this written a hundred times and a hundred different ways, but it's true: if we in the States were receiving rocketfire from Mexico, we would unleash hell on Mexico. No question about it & world opinion be damned. (That last part is idiomatic English, so I will rephrase it: they wouldn't worry about world opinion when they shoot back at Mexico).

In the begining of this thread you said that israeli man in the video who his father was a general is a ( Good person )

You're talking about Miko Peled. Yes, I said he sounded like a good dude and that is still the case. I don't agree when the word "genocide" comes out of his mouth, though, any more than I agree with it when it comes out of an Arab's mouth. Genocided is not under 2000 killed. Genocide means the literal destruction of an entire race. Not going to happen (unless Israel and the Jews are destroyed, which is actually a possibility). And if the Israelis wanted to commit genocide, they would not expend their ground troops' lives on it.

 

[Mikawa Ossan]

You know, I was thinking on the way home from work the other day that I don't trust either side on this issue. I mean, if I was an Israeli, I wouldn't trust Hamas, and if I was a Palestinian, I wouldn't trust Israel.

With the quick end to the recent ceasefire, I realized that it really doesn't matter which side broke it because we'll never know the truth. Even if someone said the absolute truth, there would be too much doubt about it all.

I agree with those who argue that Israel passed up a good chance by not engaging more with Fatah during this whole ordeal. Since Israel comes from a position of relative strength, they need to be the ones to make the first real moves toward peace. I think that pulling out of the West Bank and making a formal agreement with Fatah would be a good way to show those in Gaza that there is an effective alternative to armed resistance.

But as long as the status quo is maintained, there is little hope for any kind of peace. I just see further escalation, and in the end no one wins.

 

[alecgraham]

I agree with those who argue that Israel passed up a good chance by not engaging more with Fatah during this whole ordeal.

That was me, although I meant before the ordeal.
So, what should Israel do now? How do they take a "step toward peace?" Preferably without emboldening their enemies.

 

[Mikawa Ossan]

I think Israel should talk to Fatah now. Try to work with Fatah as the go-between. I think it would be a good chance to strengthen Fatah as opposed to Hamas.

In my opinion, from Israel's point of view, the best way to undermine Hamas is to present a better alternative to the Palestinian people. The only alternative if Fatah, and Fatah seems much more favorable to Israel than Hamas ever was.

I would think that Fatah's perspective is quite difficult. They don't want to alienate the people of Gaza, but they want to have a country for the Palestinian people. For them, though, it is a chance to be the "grown-ups" and responsible government.

In return, Israel could give concessions to Fatah.

Unfortunately, I don't think anything even close to this will happen. It's easy for me to say this, half a world away. None of my family has ever been killed from this conflict. I never lost my house and home in the years hostility. Both sides have legitimate grievances. Politically, there doesn't seem to be a real solution to me.

But in my private utopia, Netanyahu would try the above anyway, even if it means he should lose power. And that, we all know, is easier said than done.

 

[alecgraham]

What you said makes good sense. In the long run, it would be a good nonviolent way to undermine Hamas. In the short run it could of course lead to more bloody internal Palestinian (faction) fighting. But, I don't have a better solution.

I haven't lost anyone in this particular conflict either, although I do have distant relatives in Israel. Among my relatives, the last Holocaust survivors in the States have passed on, and the only survivors left are in Israel.

Netanyahu? F'geddaboutit. : - ) Maybe the next guy (or woman).

 

[WonkoTheSane]

i was talking about Jews in Palestine not your situation, i don't even consider you an 'israeli'.

You might want to say Israelis, then. If you say Jews it includes a broad swath of people. Some of us are secular Jews who have no interest in Israel whatsoever.

 

[Hezam]

You might want to say Israelis, then. If you say Jews it includes a broad swath of people. Some of us are secular Jews who have no interest in Israel whatsoever.

Israel is a name givin to a temorary state that colonization created. i'm proud of jews who don't support the occupation, religious or secular and i wish i have a friend like that.

 

[WonkoTheSane]

Israel is a name givin to a temorary state that colonization created. i'm proud of jews who don't support the occupation, religious or secular and i wish i have a friend like that.

I'm just saying that if you don't mean all Jews, you should be specific about who you mean.

I do not say Arabs performed the attack on 9/11 because it was not all Arabs, but some specific people. If I say Arabs did it then I am wrong because I am including people who had nothing to do with it.

This is why I encourage you to say Israelis if they are who you mean, since most Jews are not Israelis.

 

[Hezam]

I'm just saying that if you don't mean all Jews, you should be specific about who you mean.

I do not say Arabs performed the attack on 9/11 because it was not all Arabs, but some specific people. If I say Arabs did it then I am wrong because I am including people who had nothing to do with it.

This is why I encourage you to say Israelis if they are who you mean, since most Jews are not Israelis.

i know what you mean, But Most of Jews are israelis, 7 million inside palestine and 7 million outside, those whom are outside most of them have the israeli citizenship or passport, Plus, The majority of Jews support 'israel' .
This is the unfortunate reality.

 

[WonkoTheSane]

Your reality needs a check, because it is wrong.

Less than 50% in Israel (about 6.2M out of about 13.9M, which is about 44.6%), and most outside Israel do not have Israeli passports.

Most US Jews alone do not have Israeli passports, much less most from other countries.

 

[Hezam]

Your reality needs a check, because it is wrong.

Less than 50% in Israel (about 6.2M out of about 13.9M, which is about 44.6%), and most outside Israel do not have Israeli passports.

Most US Jews alone do not have Israeli passports, much less most from other countries.

Thanks for info, Does it change the reality that most of Jews support israel ?

 

[WonkoTheSane]

That doesn't matter to my point. Please reread it if you forgot what I said. I am not interested in discussing any other point than that.

 

[Hezam]

i should've said "The majority of Jews" instead of Jews in Palestine.