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Israeli teens murdered

Mark of Zorro

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4 Oct 2012
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I am sure you have heard about the three Israeli teens who were murdered recently.

The Israeli government was turning West Bank upside down to find them. Then they find them dead. Without proof, Israel blames Hamas and is "retaliating" in various ways.

Without proof, I blame Mossad. Smells like a false flag operation to me, designed (and succeeding) to end the widespread condemnation of continued stealing of land in West Bank by way of building more walled up so-called "settlements" that are nothing more than a slow annexing of West Bank from the Palestinians.

What do you think? False flag or no?
 
Frankly - as much as I enjoy a good conspiracy - I cannot imagine any scenario where the Mossad would turn against their own people. It just sounds too far-fetched. Let's not forget that Hamas needs to keep the heat up in order to justify and legitimate their encroachment on Palestinian society. An Intifada v3 would just serve their purpose.
 
I didn't say Mossad turned on their own people. I said they killed three Israeli teens. I also did not say the entire Mossad organization was in on it. It only took a handful.

People who join orgs like that tend to be loyal to the government and the power brokers, not the people, if they have any loyalty at all. People trained to kill just kill. Many nationalists are only pretenders. And believe me, their handlers know which ones will do which job.

Besides, doesn't Hamas have a habit of claiming responsibility for attacks?

And they held Gilead Shalit alive for five years. Why would they kill three teens in mere days?
 
Actually it seems they were killed in minutes after being kidnapped. Why would Hamas do that?

And not only has Hamas not claimed responsibility, it has denied responsibility.

Also the teens were hitchhiking home from a Jewish seminary. And who goes to Jewish seminaries? Other Israelis! Which means it would have been easy for other Israelis to know where they would be and when and also know they were Israelis.

And I am not saying this is proof. Its just all showing that it is quite possible it was a false flag operation and not Hamas or even some other Pal group.

And on top of that, this was in West Bank and Hamas does not have a lot of power there.
 
Let's not forget that Hamas needs to keep the heat up in order to justify and legitimate their encroachment on Palestinian society. An Intifada v3 would just serve their purpose.

Its just as true for Israeli conservatives though. Many Israelis would also benefit from another intifada.

The relationship between Hamas and Israeli cons is much like the relationship between Bush and bin Laden in this telephone conversation:

George Bush and Osama Bin Laden Sketch #3 - YouTube
 
Oh my Zorro, Thomas was way too kind to you. I say this with peace and love, but you are nuts.

I'm coming into this thread late, and to go on too long would look like monday morning quarterbacking, so I won't. But I don't think my response would have been that different on the 4th from what it is today: with all the bus and market bombings, with all the rockets, do you really think Israel ever needs something like a false flag?

I am certain the Israeli govt is not above capitalizing on real incidents. I know I would do the same thing if I were in power. But, kidnapping and murdering fellow Jews, and children no less? Not the government, not the Mossad, not a small group within the Mossad. No sir.

Also, they don't accuse or suspect Hamas randomly, whether or not they speedily or thoroughly release proof that would satisfy you. I'll be happy to paste the full text of this article if you're interested; it's not long.
Hamas' Not-So-Secret Weapon | Foreign Affairs

I'd love to have a calm and collected Gaza conversation with you sometime, but I'll check to see if there's already one going first.
 
Don't expect Muslims to stand with you against their bad guys (AlQaeda, ISIS,etc) when you stand with your bad guys (Zionists,occupiers,Dictators) against Muslims.
 
Well, Israeli authorities did arrest six people in connection with the murder of Khdeir.
I don't think the kidnappers/killers of the Israeli teens will be arrested anytime soon. On the contrary, the organizer works for the people in power. He's their hero.
 
Oh my Zorro, Thomas was way too kind to you. I say this with peace and love, but you are nuts.

Okay. So lets get into why you think I am nuts a bit later.

I'm coming into this thread late, and to go on too long would look like monday morning quarterbacking, so I won't.

The issue is unresolved even at the "official" level. So its not Monday morning.


But I don't think my response would have been that different on the 4th from what it is today: with all the bus and market bombings, with all the rockets, do you really think Israel ever needs something like a false flag?

Its not strictly about my opinion on what Israel "needs" I have no power in Israel. So the question is, do people who do have power in Israel think Israel needs a false flag?

Well, lets see. The rockets are old news. Israeli kids in areas near Gaza might be living in fear, but I cannot even remember the last time I heard of an Israeli kid being hurt by one. Meanwhile we continually hear about Palestinian kids being bombed to death by the Israeli military.

Bus and market bombings? Can't remember the last time either of those happened either. They just are not getting the world's and the presses' attention anymore.

But like I said, what was getting attention was new Israeli settlements in West Bank. So yeah, I do think a false flag operation was necessary to prevent Israel massively losing the sympathy of the world to the Israeli cause.

I am certain the Israeli govt is not above capitalizing on real incidents. I know I would do the same thing if I were in power. But, kidnapping and murdering fellow Jews, and children no less? Not the government, not the Mossad, not a small group within the Mossad. No sir.

So is your position a that all Israelis or all Jews think alike? Or is it that one or the other 100 percent shares a certain morality? Either way, what a totally bigoted comment! Positive bigotry might not be as ugly as negative bigotry, but its just as nuts. There are good and evil people in every large group. I can say that because I am not a bigot.

Also, they don't accuse or suspect Hamas randomly, whether or not they speedily or thoroughly release proof that would satisfy you. I'll be happy to paste the full text of this article if you're interested; it's not long.
Hamas' Not-So-Secret Weapon | Foreign Affairs

Page not found. But it seems that your reason for calling me nuts is based on faith, a sort of bigoted faith.

Since I posted this, information was released that the 3 Israeli teens were murdered shortly after being abducted with a silenced pistol. Not saying that means it isn't Hamas, but, seems more likely for Mossad. The information is known because one of the teens made a phone call and the call was recorded. And on the recording was a man giving them orders in Hebrew with an Arab accent. While I am sure some people will quickly believe that accent must have been genuine, let us remember that if Mossad operatives were trying to make it look like a Hamas abduction/killing, they would use Arab accents. Perhaps they were so busy remembering to do their accents correctly that they forgot to get the cell phones off the teens? Or maybe that was all part of the plan?

In this utter dearth of information we are all free to believe what we want. However, I think your firm belief that no Israeli or Jew could possibly do this is far, far more nuts than my belief this could be a false flag by Mossad or someone within Mossad.
 
Well, Israeli authorities did arrest six people in connection with the murder of Khdeir.
I don't think the kidnappers/killers of the Israeli teens will be arrested anytime soon. On the contrary, the organizer works for the people in power. He's their hero.

Seems like you are pushing "hive mind" theory again. Just because some Israelis saw fit to do justice for a Palestinian boy does not mean some other Israelis are incapable of doing injustice to some Israeli teens.
 
Zorro, the nuts comment refers to your conspiracy theories.

Addressing your questions about whether I can speak for all Jews or all Israelis and whether they all think alike, of course the answer is no to both. You tend to think and speak in terms of abolutes. You dream up a wild theory and then seem somewhat indignant if I can't prove you wrong with overwhelming evidence, which is amusing.

Well, I can't prove you wrong. I can only say that yes, there are plenty of hawkish and hardened Israelis both in the government and in the civilian population, but the odds that an Israeli killed those teens are miniscule. The odds that Palestinians killed them are tremendous. The whole world knows this. (I can hear your voice in my head. "Do you know what every single person in the world is thinking...")

Hamas did it. Arouri did it. Don't know why you got a page-not-found error, by the way. It still opens for me.
 
alecgraham, i want to ask you a question but i doubt you will answer it honestly, Anyway i will post it and wait hoping to get honest answer.
Why do you stand with Israel ?
You can give me as many reasons as you want, decent or not.

Thanks in advance.
 
I've always been honest with you, Hezam. Why do you doubt I'll give an honest answer now?
Answer me that and I'll work on my answer to your question.
 
I've always been honest with you, Hezam. Why do you doubt I'll give an honest answer now?
Answer me that and I'll work on my answer to your question.
Because i did not get a honest answer from pro-Israelis person, it's always about ally thing or because the US gov is always with israel.
 
Ok. Those might be honest answers, too, though, even if you don't find them satisfactory. They are not my reasons.

You might not like my answers, either, but I bet you'll find them refreshingly candid.

First and foremost, I am a bit biased because I am Jewish. Almost 100% Ashkenazi. I freely acknowledge the bias. Ever since I was old enough to read, though, I have backtracked somewhat from that bias. I was never taught to hate Arabs or anything like that, but the history of Israel which I learned was sanitized in the same way that the history of the U.S. I was taught, specifically the settling of the West, was sanitized.

Common sense says that no people are perfect, but I learned concrete details through books. For example, a couple of books by ex Mossad agent Victor Ostrovsky (e.g. "By Way of Deception") were helpful. I began to learn that things are not as cut and dried as depicted in, say, Leon Uris novels. I'm still learning.

I "stand' with Israel because I want Israel to exist. I want there to be a place in the world where Jews are always welcome. WWII is over, but antisemitism is alive and well. French Jews are fleeing France in greater numbers than we've seen in a long time, and they're going to Israel even these past two weeks. They don't care about the rocket attacks. They care about personal attacks and violence from white French and French Arabs alike.

Do I think Israel is blameless? Certainly not. I recognize that there are militant and hawkish leaders, military officers and civilians in the population. And then there are the extremists who build and reside in illegal settlements and attack Arabs. They are embarrassing to me, but they are not a reason to give up on the one Jewish state altogether.

I do respect Israel's right to exist, and I am proud of the following:
1- its technological accomplishments, both in local agricultural and in electronic and medical exports. You don't see much of that coming out of her Arab neighbors.
2- Israel takes care of her own people. In the current Gaza confict, you can see that the air raid warnings and shelters are very effective, not to mention Iron Dome. Many people seem to think that the Israelis are bad because they have little to no casualties so far. No, they just take better care of their civilians.

Hamas should be ashamed of themselves. Plenty of time and effort for weapons-smuggling tunnels, but not one shelter for Palestinian civilians.
3- leaflets, calls and texts to warn those whose domiciles are going to be bombed
4- Restraint. You probably think this is a joke, and many people accuse the Israelis of bloodlust and genocidal leanings. Believe me, if the Israelis were truly genocidal, there would be no Palestinians left. Today.

I don't "stand" with the Israelis on all of their policies regarding the West Bank and Gaza. I don't think they need all of the money we Americans give them (nor does Egypt). But, I'm not on the committees that decide that kind of thing and I can never know the final details.I just want you to know that I am critical of Israel to some degree. I don't blindly support everything they do.

Oh, 5- I am proud that Israelis are critical of themselves and that they have publications like Ha'aretz. If the Arabs had their own version of Ha'aretz, it would be easier to support them.

That's all for now. I hope my answers aren't too indecent :) because I appreciate your posts, Hezam.
 
Zorro, the nuts comment refers to your conspiracy theories.

You seem oblivious to the fact that blaming Hamas is just as much a conspiracy theory.

Addressing your questions about whether I can speak for all Jews or all Israelis and whether they all think alike, of course the answer is no to both. You tend to think and speak in terms of abolutes.

NO. YOU did.


You dream up a wild theory and then seem somewhat indignant if I can't prove you wrong with overwhelming evidence, which is amusing.

You only think its a wild theory because you think either Israelis or Jews are inherently good. Whether or not your think Muslims or Palestinians or Hamas members are inherently evil I really cannot say.

Well, I can't prove you wrong. I can only say that yes, there are plenty of hawkish and hardened Israelis both in the government and in the civilian population, but the odds that an Israeli killed those teens are miniscule. The odds that Palestinians killed them are tremendous.

Maybe. Maybe not. I want more information before I calculate odds.


The whole world knows this. (I can hear your voice in my head. "Do you know what every single person in the world is thinking...")

You mean like the world knows Mahmoud Ahmadinejad said Israel should be "wiped off the map"? Israeli Minister Agrees Ahmadinejad Never Said Israel 'Must Be Wiped Off the Map'


Hamas did it. Arouri did it.

Why are you so sure? Are you even aware that there are several other Palestinian groups competing with Hamas? Did it ever occur to you that even those groups benefit by having the world believe it was Hamas?

You seem far less open to other possibilities than I am. That's nuts.

Three (as far as I know) innocent Israeli teenagers were scooped up and murdered. We all believe it was for political reasons. As extreme as that already is, I cannot see why thinking its a false flag is out of the possibility of belief.
 
Why are you so sure? Are you even aware that there are several other Palestinian groups competing with Hamas?
Have been since...well, since before Hamas existed. Yes.

Did it ever occur to you that even those groups benefit by having you believe it was Hamas?
Of course. There is one group who, this week, fired 5 dozen or so rockets without Hamas' permission. Sure, it's at least more likely that another one of these groups was responsible than the wacky idea that the Israelis themselves did it.

This is not a case of ISR being inherently good or PLs inherently evil. History shows that Palestinians often kill their own. Even while I was typing this, I saw a PL woman sitting next to rubble which was apparently her home before an ISR missile obliterated it. She said, "Do I look like a terrorist? Do I create rockets?" I felt bad for her. Then she said something that raised an eyebrow: "I want the authorities to deal with collaborators! Deal with those who collaborated with the Israelis and then go after Israel after!"

I don't have to mind-read to know some of these things, Zorro, because they are documented. ISR is a democracy and they try their suspects in a court of law before punishment, just like they have always done. Extremist settlers may kill hapless teenagers like Khdeir and extremist PLs may kill hapless ISR teens like the most recent three, but ISRs don't kill their own.
 
antisemitism is alive and well.

So are a lot of anti--isms.

If anti-Americanism is making me a target, I blame the American government. I am not anti-American exactly. There are lots of things I like about America. But there are so many things that are truly disgusting about America. If only I could throw the extremes together and just say I am neutral about America. But I can't do that.

I cannot really choose either Palestinians or Israelis. But I do hold Israel responsible for continuing the cycle because its only natural that as long as they keep a people captive, those people will do extreme things to obtain freedom. Its an inescapable truth.

But Israel is doing extreme things to keep those people captive.

I do not dispute Israel's right to exist per se. But since Israel denies the Palestinian state the right to exist, why should I support Israel's right to exist? In the end I support the right of both to exist, two jerks, side by side.
 
ISRs don't kill their own.

Absolutist statement.

At the very least I am sure there are a few Israelis with power who would hire another to kill other Israelis.

Then there is Yitzhak Rabin, killed by a fellow Israeli at the very least due to the environment set up by Likud who declared that withdrawal from any land was heresy (how can there be peace with such an attitude?)

Rabin's killer said in court: "If I were to tell the whole truth, the entire system would collapse. I know enough to destroy this country."
 
Then she said something that raised an eyebrow: "I want the authorities to deal with collaborators! Deal with those who collaborated with the Israelis and then go after Israel after!"

Why does that raise an eyebrow? I think you interpret the statement much differently than I.
 
Tiresome, Zorro. By and large, ISRs don't kill each other. Yes, there are political assassinations. There are armed robbers, too. There are even doctors unable to save patients. Want to count them too? I'm speaking in general terms, not absolute ones. Do I really have to spell that out for you?
 
Tiresome, Zorro. By and large, ISRs don't kill each other. Yes, there are political assassinations. There are armed robbers, too. There are even doctors unable to save patients. Want to count them too? I'm speaking in general terms, not absolute ones. Do I really have to spell that out for you?

So Israelis kill Israelis in several ways for several reasons, but just never for the sake of a false flag operation. Ever.

Got it.

Mossad chief's chillingly prescient kidnap prophecy
Ten days ago, Tamir Pardo outlined a scenario that was spookily similar to the kidnapping of three teens missing in the West Bank since Thursday.


Mossad chief's chillingly prescient kidnap prophecy

I am not the only one who is thinking this is a false flag. Smoking gun proof of "Israeli teen kidnapping" false flag – Archives | Veterans Today

I give Mossad credit for great understanding of psychology. This has led to people's believing in its infallibility. But I see Mossad as being a bit more sloppy than most believe, and that sloppiness is covered up with use of their handle on psychology. People cannot believe that Mossad is fallible, or even willing to kill other Israelis, thanks to that clever use of psychology.

'BY DECEPTION, SO SHALL WE WAGE WAR.'
 
"They stole my land,

burnt my olive trees,

destroyed my house,

took my water,

bombed my country,

imprisoned my father,

killed my mother,

took my job,

starved us all,

humiliated us all,

But I am to blame: I shot a rocket back.

So they stole more of my land,

burnt my olive trees,

destroyed my house,

took my water,

bombed my country…."
 
I have read some claims that ISIS claimed responsibility for the killings. But I cannot find anything mainstream about that.
 
Thank you very much for answering my question and for being honest, It's nice to know your background and it's very nice to have you here.
Please allow me to discuss some points and i promise i will not argue with religious reasons, i only have one question about the Judaism view about creation of israel in Palestine.
- What is the judaism view about creation of israel by people not by G-d ? as far as i know it's against Judaism to create israel by people.

I was never taught to hate Arabs or anything like that, but the history of Israel which I learned was sanitized in the same way that the history of the U.S. I was taught, specifically the settling of the West, was sanitized.



I "stand' with Israel because I want Israel to exist.
i understand that any group of people would want their own nation, But the question is why should it exist on other people's land? i mean there are too many options but why on other's land !

I want there to be a place in the world where Jews are always welcome.
Weren't jewish welcome in Muslim lands before creation of Israel ? weren't they live in peace with Arab and Muslims ?

WWII is over, but antisemitism is alive and well. French Jews are fleeing France in greater numbers than we've seen in a long time, and they're going to Israel even these past two weeks. They don't care about the rocket attacks. They care about personal attacks and violence from white French and French Arabs alike.
When and Where did antisemitism started ? was there antisemitism in Muslim world before creation of israel ?
i mean your quote above is about Europe !

Do I think Israel is blameless? Certainly not. I recognize that there are militant and hawkish leaders, military officers and civilians in the population. And then there are the extremists who build and reside in illegal settlements and attack Arabs. They are embarrassing to me, but they are not a reason to give up on the one Jewish state altogether.
The last line is contradictory with what you said before, i will explain later in this post.

I do respect Israel's right to exist, and I am proud of the following:
1- its technological accomplishments, both in local agricultural and in electronic and medical exports. You don't see much of that coming out of her Arab neighbors.
1- any nation can achive technological accomplishments if they have the resources that israel has and it has nothing to do with creation of nations and person's position.
2- i hear this "You don't see much of that coming out of her Arab neighbors" many times when someone discuss Arab/israel issue and i wonder what the person who brings it know about the current Arab situation, You can not achieve developments in any field without freedom and good admistrators like in europ, US, Japan etc. It seems the persons who bring this up don't know what Arab people are going through, they have the worst dictators who don't allow or tolerate any kind of technological progress, they don't support this field, actually in most part of Arab nations they arrest people who achieve technological accomplishments.
3- As a fact (i'm not sure if you know or not) Arab have the upper hand in this world that we live in, Arab ended the dark ages by scince achievements, but this all has nothing to do with Wrong and Right.
Please visit : 1001 Inventions - Discover The Muslim Heritage In Our World | 1001 Inventions


2- Israel takes care of her own people. In the current Gaza confict, you can see that the air raid warnings and shelters are very effective, not to mention Iron Dome. Many people seem to think that the Israelis are bad because they have little to no casualties so far. No, they just take better care of their civilians.
This is an expected result from a government who is supported from the whole western nations besides Arab dictators !

Hamas should be ashamed of themselves. Plenty of time and effort for weapons-smuggling tunnels, but not one shelter for Palestinian civilians.
3- leaflets, calls and texts to warn those whose domiciles are going to be bombed
Come on! where to build shelters in Gaza strip !!!!

Jon Stewart on the Gaza-Israeli conflict - YouTube


4- Restraint. You probably think this is a joke, and many people accuse the Israelis of bloodlust and genocidal leanings. Believe me, if the Israelis were truly genocidal, there would be no Palestinians left. Today.
i'm sorry but how many palestinians left in Palestine? or how much left from palestine?

I don't "stand" with the Israelis on all of their policies regarding the West Bank and Gaza. I don't think they need all of the money we Americans give them (nor does Egypt). But, I'm not on the committees that decide that kind of thing and I can never know the final details.I just want you to know that I am critical of Israel to some degree. I don't blindly support everything they do.
If there were a Muslim nation inside France that has what israel has i know that most Muslims will support it because of two reasons, Extremism and ignorance.mainly because it's a Muslim nation, This is the same reasons that the majority of Jewish support israel, am i wrong ?

Oh, 5- I am proud that Israelis are critical of themselves and that they have publications like Ha'aretz. If the Arabs had their own version of Ha'aretz, it would be easier to support them.
Could you please translate the meaning of Ha'aretz ? i'm curious about it.

That's all for now. I hope my answers aren't too indecent :) because I appreciate your posts, Hezam.
Thank you very much, i truely appreciate your answers especially how honest you are.
 
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