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Murdering English

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The advertisement said: フリードリンクス - ・2,000

That's kind of dumb, in my opinion. Even if it makes sense in Japanese.
Why? ¥2,000 for the food and the drinks are free. That makes perfect sense ,even in English.
 
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Apparently you don't know what free means. No worries, not worth fighting over.
You are talking about establishments that offer ヒ?ケ窶堙昶?「テコ窶佚ィ, yes? Well we are talking about Japan and in 99% of the 窶ケツ焦ステー窶ーツョ that offer this service, they offer it with a set menu and then there is the all you can drink. So yes, the drinks could be considered free with the accompanying meal. (Even in English in this circumstance)

See, this is the problem, you and your friend are thinking in English and from an English speaking persons perspective. I guarantee you, not one Japanese person who saw that advertisement at an 窶ケツ焦ステー窶ーツョ would expect to walk in there , not order any food and expect free drinks.

And enough with the passive aggressiveness. If you got something say, don't beat around the bush, just say, it does not bother me.
 

Mark of Zorro

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Apparently you don't know what free means.

Many people don't. Some think it means "included". Its a common marketing tactic in America.

But I never felt this bit of Engrish was an attempt to use free in that sense, but rather an attempt to translate, jiyuu (自由), as in you are free to help yourself.

As ever, my question is, who benefits from this? I see no practical benefit to the Japanese. I see only detriment. Nothing wrong with nomihodai or even okawari jiyuu.

And this has reminded me of バイキング (baikingu), which is used for tabehodai. I remember long ago having my former in-laws say this to me over and over and I had no idea what they were very frustratingly trying to tell me. They reckoned it was English since Dave was not there to remind them its Waseiego, which they have a God given right to and should be beaming with pride over.

In fact, they should have just not even bothered trying to communicate with me at all, but just flip me the bird.
 

nahadef

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And enough with the passive aggressiveness. If you got something say, don't beat around the bush, just say, it does not bother me.
All I was trying to say is that I don't want to waste my time arguing with some guy on the Internet who is convinced labeling something that costs money as free is sensible, and much less someone who goes to the effort of composing an argument to the depth you want to. Just from the attitude in your responses to me, I understand that the only way to win is not to play.

No passive aggressiveness, it's just a dumb thing to argue. Keep at it if it makes you happy.
 
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All I was trying to say is that I don't want to waste my time arguing with some guy on the Internet who is convinced labeling something that costs money as free is sensible, and much less someone who goes to the effort of composing an argument to the depth you want to. Just from the attitude in your responses to me, I understand that the only way to win is not to play.
No passive aggressiveness, it's just a dumb thing to argue. Keep at it if it makes you happy.
There is your problem, you think it is about wining and losing, good luck with that.

I on the other hand are trying to deal with the actual topic at hand. If you can't accept the fact that free drinks with a meal means that the drinks are free, but you pay for the meal, even though a marketing ploy, still makes the drinks free.

It is like the old Infomercial trick, get a set of free steak knives with your purchase, even though the cost of them is included in the original price. Still does not mean those knives are not a free gift, it just means the actual product is overpriced.

And if you can't understand the logic behind that, I certainly have underestimated your critical thinking.
 

nahadef

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I on the other hand are trying to deal with the actual topic at hand. If you can't accept the fact that free drinks with a meal means that the drinks are free, but you pay for the meal, even though a marketing ploy, still makes the drinks free.
No, you made all that stuff up. Read what I wrote:
フリドリンクス (furidorinkusu / free drinks) <maybe the spelling is off> - used at bars and restaurants to say that you can drink all you like... if you pay a fee. Not free. Why they use that instead of 飲み放題 is beyond me. "It sounds good," is the reason I was given when I asked about it.
I never said anything about free drinks when paying for a meal. It was a set fee that you paid in order to get "free drinks." Everything you made up is stuff you made up for the sake of proving a point that, honest to God, I hope is not actually important to you despite the time you spent 'proving' you're correct; that things free things costing money makes obvious sense.

Wasted time I'll never get back. The topic at hand seems to be you making stuff up for the sake of being a contrarian and having an ego about it. It's not about 'winning' an argument on the Internet, it's that when you debate with someone with your mindset, you automatically come out a loser.

Good bye!
 

Mark of Zorro

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There is your problem, you think it is about wining and losing, good luck with that.

He means "win" in the sense of benefit NOT in the sense of "Ha-ha I beat you!".

There is no benefit discussing with you. You are being a troll. If you are naturally this obtuse or if you are doing it for laughs, I don't know though.
 
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No, you made all that stuff up. Read what I wrote:
You better re-read what I wrote.
I never said anything about free drinks when paying for a meal. It was a set fee that you paid in order to get "free drinks." Everything you made up is stuff you made up for the sake of proving a point that, honest to God, I hope is not actually important to you despite the time you spent 'proving' you're correct; that things free things costing money makes obvious sense.

What I said,

"You are talking about establishments that offer 飲み放題, yes? Well we are talking about Japan and in 99% of the 居酒屋 that offer this service, they offer it with a set menu and then there is the all you can drink. So yes, the drinks could be considered free with the accompanying meal. (Even in English in this circumstance)"

You stated restaurants, I commented on 居酒屋 which is what? A restaurant. Tell me what I made up?

You said, I quote "used at bars and restaurants to say that you can drink all you like... "
So my statement in addressing your statement about restaurants is not made up like you so conveniently put it. I have in my nearly 20 years living in Japan never seen an 居酒屋 , restaurant or ダイニングバー offer 飲み放題 for drinks only without paying for some sort of meal. I did not comment on bars, b/c there are too many different types with different services, eg 水商売 establishments.

I have seen places add an extra fee to the meal if you want to drink, but still ,that can mean that the drinks are free past a certain point of drinking. Eg, if a single beer costs ¥500 and the extra fee is ¥2,000, then the 5th beer is certainly free. No denying that.

So my comments where made on what is generally considered the norm in Japan and not a one off situation. We are talking about the English in the Japanese language as a whole, not what one particular individual decides to use.

Wasted time I'll never get back. The topic at hand seems to be you making stuff up for the sake of being a contrarian and having an ego about it. It's not about 'winning' an argument on the Internet, it's that when you debate with someone with your mindset, you automatically come out a loser.
Good bye!
You need to re-read what you stated and what I commented on, nothing is made up, it is common sense here in Japan. Something which you seem to either be conveniently ignoring or you don't have any.

Stop your winging about wasted time, you are such a drama queen and your last statement just shows your intellect or lack there of in a discussion.
 
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He means "win" in the sense of benefit NOT in the sense of "Ha-ha I beat you!".

There is no benefit discussing with you. You are being a troll. If you are naturally this obtuse or if you are doing it for laughs, I don't know though.
Go play on a highway.
 
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What are you blathering on about? I can't tell, I blocked you :/

Good for you. I guess it was b/c you have no rebuttal...

Can add I still add you to my friends list? I just sent you a friends invite since you like me so much.
 

Mark of Zorro

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On the other hand, what do non-native speakers of decent English think of Japan's murdering of the language? I cannot say this helps Japan's image anywhere in the world today.

Examples would be use of the word "file" for binder and use of the word "note" for notebook. Then "sharp pen" for mechanical or propelling pencils.

Something I should point out is that a lot of loan words are from Dutch and while used correctly and even katakanized correctly, even Japanese assume these words are English and then we English speakers think there is some error. So we have to be mindful of this.

Japanese words of Dutch origin - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
 

Tamayo

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I came across an interesting article today that goes into this issue. Read it HERE. The whole "prestige" thing is something I meant to mention before, but it slipped my mind. It does makes sense that many Japanese would use foreign words because it just sounds cooler.

After all, we do it in America all the time. French words are perfect for feigning class, Japanese words are great for feigning exotic things, and so on. I know it doesn't directly pertain to the picture you posted, Zorro, but it's something to think about, nevertheless.
 

Mark of Zorro

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I think that plays a part Tamayo, so thanks for bringing it up. I have seen some native English speakers misuse "big words" they seem to have just looked up in the dictionary, but misunderstood the meaning, and so used it incorrectly. They were trying to appear smart, but only proved they were an idiot. My cousin does this regularly.

I am sure some Japanese do the same with foreign words. Trouble is, the Japanese around them don't know the right definition, so they assume the fool is correct. Then it spreads. I am sure that is one way Engrish happens.
 

RickNZ

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As a native English speaker it's never bothered me how others incorporate English words when speaking their own language. If they want to borrow something from English they can have it, no strings attached. They should use it in whatever way fits their purposes. I do the same with foreign words in English. To me most boring part of learning Japanese is learning English words that are just the same apart from pronunciation. I like learning another language because of the differences.
 

letianchen

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Hello I am fluent in french and at one point it was alot better than my english, I must say the majority of french that I speak with other kids of my age and adults I have spoken with is sometimes alot worst than english(grammar wise, all those tenses learned in school I probably have never used 1/4 of them). For example when I was forced to take french classes as a mandatory subject in the beginning of high school I did very terribly at first, because there was alot of things I took for granted despite knowing the actual meaning of all the words and being able to do a presentation in french on the spot.

I think the majority of the time people know that they are making mistakes in English(but really don't care), but sometimes they genuinely don't. Sometimes internet speak on facebook and such, messes with our heads and so we speak like that in real life ( this is especially true with teenagers, trust me I did this alot and am still guilty of it sometimes). However then again I think their are people who really dont give two sh!ts. For example several months ago I heard a kid speaking to the principle with, I suppose what could be called "ghetto talk" and the principle was lecturing him not to do that, as it does not sound professional. The kid responded with that he could not help it, because it was instilled into the way he spoke, and I'm fairly confident he wasn't being a condescending @$$hole(lul see what I did dere) and actually spoke that way.

You are a ignorant piece of sh!t who can't hack being told that he is wrong. You seem to think that your opinion is the bees knees, news flash, you know sh!t, but you just can't accept it.

Sounds like the typical news reporter from FOX news. I must say, that's something you can brag about.

I have seen some native English speakers misuse "big words" they seem to have just looked up in the dictionary, but misunderstood the meaning, and so used it incorrectly.

I did this in my first year of highschool, ended with a very good mark, next year my teacher was a bit more wary of these things :/
 

Mark of Zorro

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To me most boring part of learning Japanese is learning English words that are just the same apart from pronunciation. I like learning another language because of the differences.

HA! Maybe I am a bit of a negative nancy sometimes. I never would have imagined in a 100 years that someone actually enjoyed learning Engrish in full awareness that it was! And it sounds like its not even the only enjoyment I get out of Engrish which is to laugh at the stupidity of others!

Okay, I suppose I can understand your reasons for this pleasure. But, I guess I am a practical man. I think there is lots of pleasure to be had without mucking about with communication. I find communication to be too important to be randomly piddled with.
 

Chidoriashi

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I agree with the stance that Japanese can use English once it is used in Japanese in any way they like, i do have two problems with Katakana words however.

1. Trying to spit them out back into English. This is sometimes okay if the word can be adopted properly as in カラオケ、、 empty orchestra.. and now as English speakers know it.. carryokey. But for the most part it I think it can be confusing for Japanese trying to learn english and relying on words that they know as english, but finding their use to be wrong when they try to speak English.

2. I when I was learning Japanese, and trying to have conversations with people, 99 times out of a hundred the word in the conversation that would throw me off would be a katakana English word, both common, and those words that were.. used for "my benefit", in other words the Japanese person would try to throw in some English words they knew to help me along.. in their mind.. but actually it would just end up confusing me all the more. This is not a problem anymore of course, but sure did annoy the sh!t out me at the time.
 
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