The English Language: Your opinion

[MadamePapillon]

Wow, this thread has evolved since I was last here.

Well, in response to the many comments about learning a language and the difficulty associated I think a big part of the difficulty of learning a language that is very foreign to you (lets say Japanese trying to lean English) is all the many layers that have built up on each other in the language.

English has evolved enormously over the many years and has a LOT of words and meanings hidden in words that a foreigner wont initially understand. For example saying 'oh, good job' can either mean you did a good job or a bad job depending on your tone. Telling someone you'll be back in a minute actually means 'I could be anywhere from 1 minute to 10 minutes so just wait'. While English (compared to other languages) is very direct and to-the-point it's also a misleading language, what you say isn't always what you mean.

On the other hand the Latin/French roots in our language actually give it a structure that (when you understand it) allows you to figure out words that you might not fully understand. Say, if a word has 'mal' in front of it it's usually a bad thing. EG. Malady, malpractice, malignant. If the word begins with 'sol' it's usually talking about the sun. EG. Solar, solarium, solstice.
It's really pretty simple once you realize the pattern.

On a completely different note. Somewhat related to the sounds of languages. I've noticed something recently that sort of surprised me. English has (in my mind at least ) become the language of music. That title used to belong to Italian back in the day but I think English has officially become the most musical language of modern times. Which is pretty surprising since English isn't globally considered to be a 'sexy' language (at least not as far as I know).

 

[bluepilot]

I think that English is a difficult language to learn because the words, grammar..well, everything is a re-hash of lots of other languages.

So, you have to learn a lot different spelling and grammar rules

Even if a non-native English speaker learns all the rules and spelling and grammar of English perfectly, I think they will still find it hard because no-one actually speaks `correct` English.

On top of that, there are all the accents. I am a Geordie so I don`t speak `correct` English to my family or friends from home (or `I divvent speak proper like to me ma or me mates` as I would say in my accent)

I like Australian and Canadian accents the best because these are the softest. Though I think that a soft Edinburgh accent or the Irish Brouge is soooooo sexy.

Probably British English, or at least BBC British English, is cosidered the most elegent through the world

And the Queen`s English is dying because she is starting to sound like a cockney

But, I will take learning kanji over spelling any day

 

[Malamis]

for those interested, I recently came across "How to Learn Any Language
Quickly, Easily, Inexpensively, Enjoyably and On Your Own" (long title is long) by Barry Farber(found in every good internet connection), which was greatly enlightening on the subject of comparitive linguistics from the learner's point of view, and also tremendously helpful in my kana studies. With 1 hr's devoted practice over three days according to the method described, I can actually read and write the stuff consistently, as opposed to pitifully slow guesswork.

 

[Glenski]

3 days is easily enough time to learn katakana. No miracles there. The key is devoted practice.

 

[Malamis]

and unfortunately I needed a book to remind me that, along with the codified encouragement to see it as possible.

 

[grapefruit]

Well, in response to the many comments about learning a language and the difficulty associated I think a big part of the difficulty of learning a language that is very foreign to you (lets say Japanese trying to lean English) is all the many layers that have built up on each other in the language.
English has evolved enormously over the many years and has a LOT of words and meanings hidden in words that a foreigner wont initially understand. For example saying 'oh, good job' can either mean you did a good job or a bad job depending on your tone. Telling someone you'll be back in a minute actually means 'I could be anywhere from 1 minute to 10 minutes so just wait'. While English (compared to other languages) is very direct and to-the-point it's also a misleading language, what you say isn't always what you mean.

This has nothing to do with English. Any language has differences between the surface form of the expression and the intended meaning.
The real intended meaning of the expression is called the illocutionary force in linguistic terms.

On a completely different note. Somewhat related to the sounds of languages. I've noticed something recently that sort of surprised me. English has (in my mind at least ) become the language of music. That title used to belong to Italian back in the day but I think English has officially become the most musical language of modern times. Which is pretty surprising since English isn't globally considered to be a 'sexy' language (at least not as far as I know).

Can you give us the source for your claim?

 

[Taiko666]

Just as the title says. It's all about the English language.

Typically I think people over here like the British accent, it sounds elegant and dignified,

There are actually hundreds of 'British accents'. I think you're referring to the stereotypical BBC accent (or "Queen's English") which is just one of the many accents from the south east of England.

 

[Glenn]

I'd venture to say that there are hundreds of accents in the southeastern US.

 

[Mikawa Ossan]

I'd venture to say that there are hundreds of accents in the southeastern US.

You think? Do you mean by native speakers or by speakers of English period?

 

[Raurtom]

I don't think I can contribute anything more then what allready has been mentioned apart from that English has always been easy for me, I'm not a born native speaker in English but I have however earned (without any preparation, I never went to English lessons at my college) the Cambridge Certificate for Proficiency in English (CPE) which basically says I am a foreign native speaker in English.

I think learning a language is easy or hard depending on your devotion, whenever I talk to English people either face to face or through the internet they generally assume I am from London to begin with (apparently I have a bit of a cockney accent) and after I tell them I'm actually Dutch most of them are really surprised.

But back on topic, I think English is a great language and well worth the trouble learning, and I dare to say that any foreign language which isn't very similar to your own language is difficult to learn, and again it comes down to devotion and amount of practice. To learn a language the best you just have to talk with and to people who are native speakers..

 

[Glenn]

You think? Do you mean by native speakers or by speakers of English period?

I meant native speakers, and I think "hundreds" may have been a bit much, but just judging from the diversity of accents in south Louisiana alone I figure it's got to be pretty high. Of course, it depends on how strictly you want to define them and all. Throwing in the large amounts of Vietnamese and Hispanic people (among others, but the seem to be predominant) here would increase the number. I didn't even think about that.

 

[MadamePapillon]

Can you give us the source for your claim?

Why on earth would I have a 'source' for my 'claim'. Seriously. I didn't state anything hugely scientific that I could go into the back and pull out my many boxes of data on the subject.

It was an opinion. Not a scientific debate.

There are actually hundreds of 'British accents'. I think you're referring to the stereotypical BBC accent (or "Queen's English") which is just one of the many accents from the south east of England.

It's the 'British accent' in the same way that the mid-western accent is the 'American accent'. It's the most widely recognized accent from that part of the world.
It's a generalization but one that simplifies the topic as most people would realize immediately what I meant without me having to go into specifics.

 

[Glenski]

People might want to look at this US map for details on the many dialects of English.
Yahoo | Mail, Weather, Search, Politics, News, Finance, Sports & Videos

This link (and the internal one for Map 1) is similar.
National Map

For British, NZ, Aussie, and many more, go here.
Dialinks

 

[CA_Wix]

Glenski: very interesting map of US English.

I never thought about the difficulty of English until I moved to Japan. I see people trying to learn English and have new respect for the complexity of English. My girlfriend is Japanese, and although I would call her fluent in English I think she would have a very hard time understanding a conversation I have with my friends or family back home in Detroit. I have web conferences with my parents almost weekly and one time my girlfriend was here and got to "meet" my parents. I spent the entire time "translating" the slang we were saying. To know and study English is one thing, but where I am from slang is extremely complex and difficult. For example my dad says "What the hecks goin on there?" Means really like: "How have you been", but to non-native english speaker I cannot explain why it means this.

Also I have learned a lot about English since I live abroad. My Japanese is still in early development, so many of my day to day communications are in English with nonnative speakers. For example I talk to my boss (who can speak some English) COMPLETELY different than the way I speak to my Australian coworkers. I also have the ability to understand hundreds of "flavors" of english. Japanese English can be very difficult for Americans to understand, but over time it becomes easy.

As an American I think it is important to be able to speak to nonnative English speakers effectively. In a global business world it is a skill to be able to feel out a persons language ability and to use words that will effectively and accurately communicate.

These skills are something I hear little about, but I feel are important for nonnative English speakers.

 

[Half-n-Half]

People might want to look at this US map for details on the many dialects of English.
Yahoo | Mail, Weather, Search, Politics, News, Finance, Sports & Videos

Thanks Glenski; that first link made me go out and buy a dozen krispy kremes. I'm from the Midwest (Indiana) and always wondered if I had an accent. I guess it would be more slang than an accent.

Also I have learned a lot about English since I live abroad. My Japanese is still in early development, so many of my day to day communications are in English with nonnative speakers.

They say one of the best ways to learn about your own language is to study another. I learned a lot about English when I started learning Spanish. It just seems like there are so many exceptions in the English language, and then exceptions for those exceptions.

 

[MadamePapillon]

To know and study English is one thing, but where I am from slang is extremely complex and difficult. For example my dad says "What the hecks goin on there?" Means really like: "How have you been", but to non-native english speaker I cannot explain why it means this.

That's so true. Speaking from experience, talking to people with who English is definitely not a first language can be a very interesting experience. Frustrating, yes, but at the same time it makes you appreciate just how many complexities exist that we either don't think about or take for granted.

As an American I think it is important to be able to speak to nonnative English speakers effectively. In a global business world it is a skill to be able to feel out a persons language ability and to use words that will effectively and accurately communicate.

I find when I'm talking with someone who's English isn't very good I tend to give really short comments and not elaborate on anything (I usually get the feeling the more you elaborate the less the conversation will make sense to them). And I definitely censor myself with the slang and profanity. I've got a bad habit of dropping the F-bomb without really thinking about it when I'm with friends but when speaking to a foreigner I'll never swear.

As well I don't use 'expressions'. I can't think of any good ones right now but you know those expressions like 'in the middle of nowhere' (bad example), where, it makes sense to you but when you really stop to think about it how can you possibly be in the middle of nowhere. I can't imagine how confusing that must get, if I'm frustrated that I can't understand them very well they must be doubly frustrated.

But when talking with foreigners I definitely try to be short and to the point but also polite. Also, using gestures helps .. a lot. I guess that's one of the things you have to adapt to living in a multicultural environment (especially when so many people don't even bother learning or improving their English), you sort of get an internal communication guide when speaking with non-native English speakers.

 

[Glenski]

Thanks Glenski; that first link made me go out and buy a dozen krispy kremes. I'm from the Midwest (Indiana) and always wondered if I had an accent.

Well, Dad was born a Hoosier, so howdy. I'm from another Midwest state, though.

Anyway, generally speaking, we Midwesterners do indeed have accents. Just get a Brit, Aussie, or Irishman together and they will tell you for certain. It's just a clearer accent than most, so they say.

 

[Putrefaction]

As much as everyone might think English is a "hard" language to learn because it has irregulars and grammatical nonsensicals (I have no idea what I'm talking about) so does every other language...Japanese is kicking my *** right now as well. It definitely has irregulars and compared to English I would say that THAT is hard.

Even if a non-native English speaker learns all the rules and spelling and grammar of English perfectly, I think they will still find it hard because no-one actually speaks `correct` English.

I completely agree. I'm from NY so I'm used to this mishmash of languages and I really don't care what broken English is formed as long as the main point across, what accent it's in as long as it's understandable to a point, whatever. I feel bad for people learning English as the are subject to harsh strict rigid grammatical rules...the second they step out of the door they are bombarded with slang and casual talk.

As for improvement I never studied English gramatically or anything else and I never will, but at this point there's no point in fixing anything.

They say one of the best ways to learn about your own language is to study another. I learned a lot about English when I started learning Spanish. It just seems like there are so many exceptions in the English language, and then exceptions for those exceptions.

This I agree and disagree with. See, everyone says learning another language makes you realize how yours truly is. But I've found--and this is just my case--that learning another language that is similar to yours does nothing. I know some Italian from high school and German from Rosetta Stone. To generally generally crap on these languages, they are (from English perspective) nothing but a rehash of English alphabet and grammar. What is the challenge in that. Nothing. Perhaps it was my age (though at 13-18 one would think that one's over with this language thing) but it never made me think of anything until the few months ago I started taking Japanese.

As an American I think it is important to be able to speak to nonnative English speakers effectively. In a global business world it is a skill to be able to feel out a persons language ability and to use words that will effectively and accurately communicate.

I think it's important depending on where you are. Not to cross threads but I think it's not only polite but should be mandatory that when you visit or live (...) in another country you should know the minimum basics of that country's language. Nothing fancy. When tourists visit here I would expect them to know some English, when I go outside the US I would definitely study up on some language.

I've got a bad habit of dropping the F-bomb without really thinking about it when I'm with friends but when speaking to a foreigner I'll never swear. Also, using gestures helps .. a lot.

Agreed, swearing is, as my friends say, like the word "and" in my speech...gesturing I never do in English, but where I work a lot of illegal immigrants come in (to tie with my above paragraph, they speak only in Spanish, and look all offended when I can't respond in Spanish) I always have to use gestures or reword English.

I dare to say that any foreign language which isn't very similar to your own language is difficult to learn, and again it comes down to devotion and amount of practice.

I can tell you that I have all the devotion in the world I can have for Japanese whilst taking Biochem, Anatomy and whatever other Pharmacy classes I have to take...but some people just don't have the mental capacities...as you can see in my topic in the Kanji learning topic and undoubtably this post I am not that smart, and to those people no amount of practice will make them even semi-fluent...I'm hoping people in Japan are cool with huge grammar errors and constant mixups, haha...

 

[Bellevance]

Bluepilot writes: Even if a non-native English speaker learns all the rules and spelling and grammar of English perfectly, I think [the speaker] will still find it hard because no one actually speaks `correct` English.

Not at all. Many professional people who use the language in formal ways to do their jobs--like radio and TV broadcasters, print journalists, college professors, fiction writers, lawyers, and so on--all take pains to use the English language with care and precision. And most of them succeed in using proper grammar and usage with admirable clarity, flair, and consistency.

 

[Yan]

My favorite English accent is from UK. I don't like the American accent. I don't know why, I just don't feel it. In a way, I prefer UK than USA.