Part II
We just had brunch with an American friend (German-born) and we talked about Gaza a bit. He said that "Israel is still doing some terrible things over there" and I didn't argue. : - ) But, I did point out that when the Israelis pulled out in '05, they were not rewarded for their gesture. The Palestinians destroyed the greenhouses that they left full of flowers and fruit. It's sad, because that could have improved their economy. They also smashed the synogogues on day one and used what was left to store armaments. Not good. Anyway...part 2:
{ your links are missing because I pasted everything to a text file to work offline, a process which unfortunately "washes" hyperlinks and text mark-up away. However, they exist intact in your post above and I could edit them back in if you want }
Originally Posted by alecgraham
I want there to be a place in the world where Jews are always welcome.
Hezam wrote: Weren't jewish welcome in Muslim lands before creation of Israel ? weren't they live in peace with Arab and Muslims ?
There were many times and places throughout history in which the Muslims treated Jews very well, certainly better than Europeans treated them. And this makes sense, because even though ﾂ'The Dark Ages' were not quite as dark as previously thought, the Muslims were in a period of enlightenment at the same time. Enlightened people treat foreigners and guests well. It wasn't all rosy, but if I were a Jew in medieval times, I'd rather live in a Muslim land than a Christian one for sure.
I could be wrong, but I think Muslim antisemitism is relatively modern, and it was influenced by European antisemitism. (Fighting over Israel and Palestine made things worse, but this was not the impetus).
When and Where did antisemitism started ? was there antisemitism in Muslim world before creation of israel ?
i mean your quote above is about Europe !
Antisemitism is ancient and did not begin in Arab lands, nor was it a part of Islam.
Some of your questions are addressed in the response above, but if you look at recent world events, a huge part of antisemitism in Europe is expressed by Muslims living in Scandinavia, France, Belgium and the UK. Instead of becoming a melting pot, Europe has become just another place where Muslims and Jews don't get along.
You may disagree with me, but I will go ahead and assert that traditionally, Jewish immigrants have more thoroughly integrated with their new homelands. Yes, there are pockets of ultra-religious Hasidim in Paris (and in New York!) who want nothing to do with the native non-Jews around them. I have no love for them. Yes, even non-religious Jews maintain a semblance of the ﾂ"Old Worldﾂ", continuing to study the Hebrew language and sometimes even going to temple services. But, they speak the local language and they find work and contribute to society, be it science, the arts or whatever.
Muslimsﾂ…not so much. This is obviously a generalization but if you explore you will find that in this day and age you will find that while French Muslims often grow up speaking French, they are more likely than not to dwell in Arab-Muslim neighborhoods. They have higher unemployment figures. They cling more closely to their own culture. This is not to say that they all want Sharia law or that they are a majority of terrorists. No, not even close. But, the great age of Arab Enlightenment is sadly in the past. You will read about them in the paper not because they won a Nobel prize in chemistry but because they killed someone who drew an offensive picture of Mohammed, or because a Frenchman of North African ancestry went into a Jewish museum in Brussels and murdered Jews. Or because a pro-Palestinian protest in Paris turned violent, with the protesters turning on French police:
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Hezam wrote:
2- i hear this "You don't see much of that coming out of her Arab neighbors" many times when someone discuss Arab/israel issue and i wonder what the person who brings it know about the current Arab situation, You can not achieve developments in any field without freedom and good admistrators like in europ, US, Japan etc. It seems the persons who bring this up don't know what Arab people are going through, they have the worst dictators who don't allow or tolerate any kind of technological progress, they don't support this field, actually in most part of Arab nations they arrest people who achieve technological accomplishments.
I agree with you 100% on this. You absolutely have to have a good environment to flourish. Galileo is a hero of the west
now, but he was a victim of the ignorant Catholic church of his day. Now, Jews didn't have it easy, even in the US., suffering a lot of discrimination, but they worked their way up. They were able to do so because the U.S. is a democracy with relatively less corruption than one sees in oligarchies and dictatorships. Moderate Muslims do well here, too.
In places like Iran and Egypt, people are just trying to survive and they don't have the funding, let alone the peace, for making many scientific breakthroughs. Most of their innovations will be government sponsored and geared toward gaining military superiority, like in the former Soviet Union. Sometimes there are multipurpose achievements. For example, Iran has developed a kind of "smart concrete" that serves well both against earthquakes and against Western bunker busting missiles.
Not only do I agree with you, but I will also go a step further and admit that the West is also to blame for supporting some of these regimes, previously in Iran and like Mubarak's in Egypt. The U.S. and the West will support a dictator or a terrorist when it suits our purposes. As soon as they fail to serve that purpose or we turn on them, we make them the bad guy and attempt to decapitate that regime. The civilian population then suffers through the chaos and then, perhaps, a new dictator.
However, most Arab nations also have their own problems with establishing a fair government. Even without the United States' installed puppet rulers and influence, I don't know how they're going to break out of this cycle. Of course it won't be easy. I was hopeful when the Arab Spring began, but I was fearful of the Muslim Brotherhood. (If I recall correctly, Hezam, you thought that Morsi wasn't give a fair chance or enough time. Maybe so).
3- As a fact (i'm not sure if you know or not) Arab have the upper hand in this world that we live in, Arab ended the dark ages by scince achievements, but this all has nothing to do with Wrong and Right.
Please visit : 1001 Inventions - Discover The Muslim Heritage In Our World | 1001 Inventions
Definitely true, as mentioned above, and I will definitely check out your linked site with interest. I know that Arabs invented 0,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9 which all of civilization is built on and I am aware of Arab achievements in navigation and astronomy. I would like to learn more. I should also add that in the small town where I grew up, my family doctor was Palestinian! Pretty cool. He was a good physician.
Originally Posted by alecgraham
2- Israel takes care of her own people. In the current Gaza confict, you can see that the air raid warnings and shelters are very effective, not to mention Iron Dome. Many people seem to think that the Israelis are bad because they have little to no casualties so far. No, they just take better care of their civilians.
Hezam wrote:
This is an expected result from a government who is supported from the whole western nations besides Arab dictators !
Agree. But, Sunnis and Shias need to stop fighting each other. Easier said than done, I know.
Originally Posted by alecgraham
Hamas should be ashamed of themselves. Plenty of time and effort for weapons-smuggling tunnels, but not one shelter for Palestinian civilians.
3- leaflets, calls and texts to warn those whose domiciles are going to be bombed
Hezam wrote:Come on! where to build shelters in Gaza strip !!!!
Jon Stewart on the Gaza-Israeli conflict - YouTube
Jon's a funny guy (and a nice Jewish boy), but his comedy writers are not the best source for news. I think the Gazans have been instructed to flee south. I won't pretend to know what's going on on the ground over there. I can only imagine that it's hell on earth. And look, if I were born into Gaza, I'd hate Israel and the Jews, too. No doubt! That's why this hatred is so hard to break. I can only hope that Israel gets Hamas out of there and that the people elect a more moderate government, one that can work with Israel's gov't. They have to survive the extremists. As Zorro has pointed out, even Israel has seen a moderate leader who was assassinated by a (Jewish) extremist. It won't be easy, as we all know.
Originally Posted by alecgraham
4- Restraint. You probably think this is a joke, and many people accuse the Israelis of bloodlust and genocidal leanings. Believe me, if the Israelis were truly genocidal, there would be no Palestinians left. Today.
i'm sorry but how many palestinians left in Palestine? or how much left from palestine?
The population is pretty densely packed. It sounds coarse for me to say it, but they're making plenty of babies over there. Even without the Right of Return, I think the land will be full. Israel, too.
Originally Posted by alecgraham
I don't "stand" with the Israelis on all of their policies regarding the West Bank and Gaza. I don't think they need all of the money we Americans give them (nor does Egypt). But, I'm not on the committees that decide that kind of thing and I can never know the final details.I just want you to know that I am critical of Israel to some degree. I don't blindly support everything they do.
If there were a Muslim nation inside France that has what israel has i know that most Muslims will support it because of two reasons, Extremism and ignorance.mainly because it's a Muslim nation, This is the same reasons that the majority of Jewish support israel, am i wrong ?
Let me make sure I get your meaning- you mean Israel is inside Palestine (I don't think of it that way. We'll have to disagree on that). And, if Muslims created a state on French land, the French would be against it, but extreme Muslims would blindly support it because it's their fellow Muslims. I think that's the implication you're making. Wellﾂ…from the comments I read on the web, yes, there *are* Jewish extremists who blindly support Israel and who think Israelis can do no wrong. I am not one of them, of course. They want all the Palestinians dead or relocated. Extremists tend to look the same to me whether they're Jewish or Muslim, Hebrew or Arab.
Still, it's hard for me to look at your comparison without pointing out that there are already a billion Muslims on the earth. There are 13-14 million Jews in the world. Less than 0.2%. We've got the quality (in my opinion) but no quantity. I guess I'm part of the problem. I married a non-Jew and we don't plan to have any children. If we did, I would not raise them with Judaism. Jews don't have to be exterminated by Hitler or Mohammed Atta. We're dying out on our own without anyone's help.
So, there are tons of Arabs/Muslims on the planet and of course Israel is surrounded by Arab neighbors. I know it sounds paranoid, but I think one of these days Israel could be destroyed. They could do a lot of damage in return, but only takes one big bomb and one suicidal zealot to annihilate Israel once and for all. Muslims will survive.
Originally Posted by alecgraham
Oh, 5- I am proud that Israelis are critical of themselves and that they have publications like Ha'aretz. If the Arabs had their own version of Ha'aretz, it would be easier to support them.
Could you please translate the meaning of Ha'aretz ? i'm curious about it.
I remember learning that Eretz means land or earth and H' or ha is a definite article, like ﾂ'the'. So I guess it's ﾂ"The Landﾂ" or perhaps ﾂ"The country.ﾂ" I'm not sure why it isn't Ha'
eretz with an ﾂ'e', but Hebrew is usally written with consonants and I was never good at guessing and filling in the vowel. : - )
Thanks for asking all this. I enjoy writing about it and I appreciate the thoughts you're expressing as well.
