Is Japan an atheist country?
- Thread starter Majestic
- Start date
- 27 Nov 2012
- 1,689
- 1,086
Those are there for tradition, not so much for belief. I've discussed it over and over again with locals all over. They're "religious" for days of the year (Obon , New Years) and for funerals. The rest of the year, there is no religion. It's certainly not an aspect of daily life.
I would compare it to how, in my house, we all said grace around the Christmas dinner table (until my grandparents had passed away). Just going through the motions for the sake of it.
I would compare it to how, in my house, we all said grace around the Christmas dinner table (until my grandparents had passed away). Just going through the motions for the sake of it.
- 12 Oct 2013
- 4,071
- 5,023
- Thread starter
- #3
I think the opportunistic assumption of rites and superstitions means that by definition Japan isn't an atheist country. If the national policy and the national customs repudiated the existence of God (or gods) you would rightfully define it as atheistic. But I have heard very few Japanese people (if any) assert themselves to be atheistic. Be that as it may, since the national figurehead is descended from the gods, and since the quasi-national religion involves him performing Shinto rites every year, you would have to say that Japan is anything but atheistic. Pan-theistic maybe, or non-practicing Buddhists if you like, but to call Japan atheistic would be wrong. Don't mean to hijack your thread. Maybe a better topic for the serious discussion thread.
- 14 Mar 2002
- 21,054
- 18,910
This is a spin-off of [MENTION=59234]nahadef[/MENTION] 's comic diary thread.
I wouldn't call them atheist either, but rather pragmatic. A bit of Shinto, a few pinches of Buddhism, and a tad of pseudo-Christian trace elements, stirred and occasionally consumed, but never taken serious. Also, very few Japanese I have met view the emperor as a national figurehead, not to mention a descendant from heaven.
I wouldn't call them atheist either, but rather pragmatic. A bit of Shinto, a few pinches of Buddhism, and a tad of pseudo-Christian trace elements, stirred and occasionally consumed, but never taken serious. Also, very few Japanese I have met view the emperor as a national figurehead, not to mention a descendant from heaven.
- 27 Nov 2012
- 1,689
- 1,086
I've heard it said that a lot of Japanese didn't believe that stuff about the emperor even before World War II. It was official policy, and people said it, but that wasn't necessarily people's belief. Hard to find any fact on something like that, though.
Really, there isn't a great word for Japan's situation. Officially, Japan is about ⅓ atheist, but most of the rest are essentially too, in practice. They just don't make a statement about it. It's not an issue, and it's just the way they are.
You can say Japanese are Shinto or Buddhist, but why do the majority have a Christian wedding ceremony? You don't see Christians in the West getting Buddhist ceremonies. Why do Japanese? Because they really don't care. I wouldn't call them agnostic or non-practicing in any conscious way either. They simply just don't care. Show up at the shrine for omikuji at New Years, and ring the bell at the butsudan when you visit grandpa's house, but that isn't evidence of religion, since it is more tradition than anything else. There's nothing to protest against, as a young atheist in America might, since there's nothing to the teaching.
While I can agree that 'atheist country' is not the perfect way to sum it up, I wouldn't call it incorrect either.
Really, there isn't a great word for Japan's situation. Officially, Japan is about ⅓ atheist, but most of the rest are essentially too, in practice. They just don't make a statement about it. It's not an issue, and it's just the way they are.
You can say Japanese are Shinto or Buddhist, but why do the majority have a Christian wedding ceremony? You don't see Christians in the West getting Buddhist ceremonies. Why do Japanese? Because they really don't care. I wouldn't call them agnostic or non-practicing in any conscious way either. They simply just don't care. Show up at the shrine for omikuji at New Years, and ring the bell at the butsudan when you visit grandpa's house, but that isn't evidence of religion, since it is more tradition than anything else. There's nothing to protest against, as a young atheist in America might, since there's nothing to the teaching.
While I can agree that 'atheist country' is not the perfect way to sum it up, I wouldn't call it incorrect either.
Last edited:
- 27 Nov 2012
- 1,689
- 1,086
I thought I'd add one point contrasting my point, for the sake of honesty. I have been cautioned more than once about taking photos in sacred places. Once at a Japanese graveyard, and another at a shrine of sorts on a rural Okinawan island. Because of 'kamisama.' It's connected to religion, but it's also connected to superstition.
That being said, the Japanese who cautioned me were not in any way pious.
That being said, the Japanese who cautioned me were not in any way pious.
- 12 Oct 2013
- 4,071
- 5,023
- Thread starter
- #8
One wouldn't call Japan an atheist country. It would be untrue. That Japanese pick and choose which religious rites to follow during their weddings doesn't make them any less religious (anymore than, say, going round trick-or-treating makes American kids less religious). You might question the depth of sincerity of their devotion to dogma, but it doesn't make them atheist. Likewise, anecdotal evidence of whether or not people believe the emperor is the figurehead of the country doesn't change the fact that this is indeed what he is. That he takes a particular role in Shinto ceremonies, paid for by public funds, is also prima facie evidence that the country is not atheist. This is to say nothing of the perennial drama of the prime minister visiting (or not) a shrine to honor the war dead.
Atheism, the repudiation of god or gods or divine authority, or the evil eye or lucky days or numbers or brush strokes or what have you, is simply not a feature of this landscape. It is awash in superstition and new religions and cults and rituals designed to bring favor of the gods, ritual purification, political parties based on religion, etc...
Atheism, the repudiation of god or gods or divine authority, or the evil eye or lucky days or numbers or brush strokes or what have you, is simply not a feature of this landscape. It is awash in superstition and new religions and cults and rituals designed to bring favor of the gods, ritual purification, political parties based on religion, etc...
- 27 Nov 2012
- 1,689
- 1,086
I wouldn't call them agnostic either though. Agnostic has a feeling of undecided. Japan is simply apathetic overall. It depends on how you define atheism. You label it the repudiation of gods. My thesaurus has this: nonbelief, disbelief, unbelief, irreligion, skepticism, doubt, agnosticism; nihilism.
I think Japan has non belief or irreligion. As I wrote before, people interpret things in different ways. I, for the most part, don't disagree with your facts, but I disagree with your conclusions.
I don't think the country is awash in superstition, new religions and cults and rituals though. Especially that new religion point. All I see is '窶堋｢窶堋ｽ窶堋ｾ窶堋ｫ窶堙懌?堋ｷﾂ！' on a day to day basis. Not that those things don't exist, but that 'awash' has some image of commonness, and it simply isn't.
And I think any Christian who takes part in trick or treating is not properly Christian. They are paying lip service and ignoring the foundation of their belief. I wouldn't call them atheist, because they are usually still pious, but it's not a great example. And a thing that popped up in America so kids got free candy shouldn't be compared to a ceremony that, ideally, occurs once in a person's life. You really think one of the most important events in a person's life wouldn't be affected by religion? Your conclusion. I think weddings are deeply affected by religion for pretty much everyone who is religious. Only the irreligious opt out of using that as a religious expression.
The emperor doesn't mean much to me either. He's awash in protocol (an appropriate use of the word in this case, I think), but it doesn't mean religion. The British royalty were at one time divine, and nobody thinks so now. All the same, there is a lot of protocol with them now. Not out of piousness, but of from tradition.
You use the term, "one wouldn't..." but actually, you should say, "I wouldn't..." It's your opinion, as is mine. Feel backed up enough by your facts to let people make their own minds, rather than classify your opinions as what 'one' would think as opposed to what I would think as 'you.'
I write all this with due respect. I don't think you're wrong per se, but I disagree with you. I think one could argue either side on this and be 'correct.'
- 12 Oct 2013
- 4,071
- 5,023
- Thread starter
- #10
There are a couple of problems. One is that in your comic you state that Japan is an atheist country, which is a definitive statement rather than a statement of opinion, and I think maybe a source of confusion for your audience. Let's drag out Webster to see if his definition works for both of us;
I don't think any of these apply to Japan. Certainly neither of these would describe the policy of the state towards religion, and neither of them apply to the Japanese people as a whole (though there are surely some atheists amongst the Japanese). It is not a label I have invented, it is a real position and claiming that Japan as a nation has rejected God or the gods is saying something that isn't true - even though you may find fault with the veracity of their faith.
The Soka Gakkai has 12 million members, Kofuku No Kagaku has something close to that. Both of these religions have political wings - Komeito is particularly influential. Houses typically have butsudan where prayers and offerings are made to the departed. Calendars contain days which are deemed lucky or unlucky, children strap good luck charms to their backpacks, taxi drivers have good luck stickers on their windows, people sleep in a certain direction as to avoid the wrath of the gods (or the wrath of the dead shoguns); the country is awash in superstition and religiosity, even if it comes in a flavor that is different from the western traditions. To say they are not serious about it, or that their beliefs are shallow, or that they only do it for outward appearance, may all be well and true, but being shallow or even ambivalent is something different from atheism - if we take the Webster definition.
I think that wedding ceremonies in Japan are definitely affected by religion; in fact they are affected by too many religions, one might say. Regarding Halloween, I don't see a big difference between co-opting what was originally a pagan ceremony, and the Japanese co-opting western traditions into their own traditions. I know you say Americans are still pious, but its all quite subjective. Regarding the emperor, I understand he doesn't mean much to you, and he may not mean much to the Japanese, but he is the de-facto symbol of Shinto in Japan. The House of Windsor is still the head of the Anglican Church, and so one could not call the UK an atheist country. It is the same in Japan - one (anyone) cannot properly call it an atheist country. You can assert that it is religious in name only, and that most people are atheists, but I think you would have your work cut out for you. In any event, your comment that "Japan is an atheist country" is an opinion that invites argument. You could have said "Japan is not a Christian country" which would have been accurate (even though Christians exist in Japan), and I don't think anyone would find fault with it.
Thanks to Thomas for moving the thread so as not to distract further from Nahadef's comic thread. Happy to argue these things without derailing what has been a significant effort, which obviously a lot of people appreciate.
I don't think any of these apply to Japan. Certainly neither of these would describe the policy of the state towards religion, and neither of them apply to the Japanese people as a whole (though there are surely some atheists amongst the Japanese). It is not a label I have invented, it is a real position and claiming that Japan as a nation has rejected God or the gods is saying something that isn't true - even though you may find fault with the veracity of their faith.
The Soka Gakkai has 12 million members, Kofuku No Kagaku has something close to that. Both of these religions have political wings - Komeito is particularly influential. Houses typically have butsudan where prayers and offerings are made to the departed. Calendars contain days which are deemed lucky or unlucky, children strap good luck charms to their backpacks, taxi drivers have good luck stickers on their windows, people sleep in a certain direction as to avoid the wrath of the gods (or the wrath of the dead shoguns); the country is awash in superstition and religiosity, even if it comes in a flavor that is different from the western traditions. To say they are not serious about it, or that their beliefs are shallow, or that they only do it for outward appearance, may all be well and true, but being shallow or even ambivalent is something different from atheism - if we take the Webster definition.
I think that wedding ceremonies in Japan are definitely affected by religion; in fact they are affected by too many religions, one might say. Regarding Halloween, I don't see a big difference between co-opting what was originally a pagan ceremony, and the Japanese co-opting western traditions into their own traditions. I know you say Americans are still pious, but its all quite subjective. Regarding the emperor, I understand he doesn't mean much to you, and he may not mean much to the Japanese, but he is the de-facto symbol of Shinto in Japan. The House of Windsor is still the head of the Anglican Church, and so one could not call the UK an atheist country. It is the same in Japan - one (anyone) cannot properly call it an atheist country. You can assert that it is religious in name only, and that most people are atheists, but I think you would have your work cut out for you. In any event, your comment that "Japan is an atheist country" is an opinion that invites argument. You could have said "Japan is not a Christian country" which would have been accurate (even though Christians exist in Japan), and I don't think anyone would find fault with it.
Thanks to Thomas for moving the thread so as not to distract further from Nahadef's comic thread. Happy to argue these things without derailing what has been a significant effort, which obviously a lot of people appreciate.
- 27 Nov 2012
- 1,689
- 1,086
Here's what my dictionary says:
disbelief or lack of belief in the existence of God or gods.
I think lack of belief applies to Japan. Not as official policy taught in schools, but in actual life.
I try to be diplomatic in disagreement, and it's tiresome to come back to the "I'm right, you're wrong," reply. Not even an attempt to see the other point. That's how the Internet works though. I know it well.
So, I've changed it in the original strip. Not because I think you're right and I'm wrong, but because I never plan to have this conversation again. It's just annoying.
disbelief or lack of belief in the existence of God or gods.
I think lack of belief applies to Japan. Not as official policy taught in schools, but in actual life.
I try to be diplomatic in disagreement, and it's tiresome to come back to the "I'm right, you're wrong," reply. Not even an attempt to see the other point. That's how the Internet works though. I know it well.
So, I've changed it in the original strip. Not because I think you're right and I'm wrong, but because I never plan to have this conversation again. It's just annoying.
For practical purpose yes.
Most people don't have any problem mixing things like christmas, new years, shinto, buddhism, ancestory worship etc.
However, just about all major religions originated in Sumer cradle of civilization and morphed.
It all started in Sumer, cradle of civilization. They combined lots technology, such as pottery, metal, mason, water, sewer, plus fine formula for structure of an empire. Basically, elite using a story[lie] to gain from others.
Religion is story of gods which enable priest to collect money from followers.
Hero is story making loyal blood special, such as king Arthur.
Story about fake birthday and santa exist.... Elite merchants benefit since it brainwashes people into unnecessary spending which make them broke. Remember the story of couple, she sells hair, he sells the watch? It is NOT necessary to buy JUNK for other person, in fact it would been better if they did not and save the money for a future kids. It is a warm story that brainwashes people into becoming shopping addict.
Formal massively structured religion started in Sumer. And it was copied over and over again with various changes over time and location. Not much different than language or culture.
Gaia = mother nature = tree of life = Asherah Pole= h-ashira(ﾅ津､窶卩 onbashira)= cross = christmas tree = sirius star = various goddess(ishtar, innana, isis, venus,amaterasu 窶弖ﾂ湘??佚･ﾂ神 etc) = jesus
窶敕ｹﾂ債ｹ窶禿･窶弖(bishamonten)= ﾂ債敘陳｢(komainu)=ﾅｽ窶塲ｽq lion/dragon/unicorn= Vaisravana= sphinx= lamassu= cupid=cherubs angel guarding eden
War god of moses=yahwah=yaw=yam=poseidon etc.
Religion is basically fake story of god to collect money and loyalty.
Religion | real7777
Greedy Elites
Greedy Elite | real7777
Starvation
Starvation | real7777
Sumerism
Sumerism | real7777
Greedy elites in Sumer cradle of civilization created stories of god/hero/etc. to fleece from others.
Religion/king/empire/business etc follow same strategy of brainwashing, uniting, nationalism, team spirit etc.
Merchant love santa story that causes unnecessary spending by conned-sumer.
King Arthur story legitimize and con people into believing some special blood is needed.
Priest etc live in luxury while taking money from poor.
Most people don't have any problem mixing things like christmas, new years, shinto, buddhism, ancestory worship etc.
However, just about all major religions originated in Sumer cradle of civilization and morphed.
It all started in Sumer, cradle of civilization. They combined lots technology, such as pottery, metal, mason, water, sewer, plus fine formula for structure of an empire. Basically, elite using a story[lie] to gain from others.
Religion is story of gods which enable priest to collect money from followers.
Hero is story making loyal blood special, such as king Arthur.
Story about fake birthday and santa exist.... Elite merchants benefit since it brainwashes people into unnecessary spending which make them broke. Remember the story of couple, she sells hair, he sells the watch? It is NOT necessary to buy JUNK for other person, in fact it would been better if they did not and save the money for a future kids. It is a warm story that brainwashes people into becoming shopping addict.
Formal massively structured religion started in Sumer. And it was copied over and over again with various changes over time and location. Not much different than language or culture.
Gaia = mother nature = tree of life = Asherah Pole= h-ashira(ﾅ津､窶卩 onbashira)= cross = christmas tree = sirius star = various goddess(ishtar, innana, isis, venus,amaterasu 窶弖ﾂ湘??佚･ﾂ神 etc) = jesus
窶敕ｹﾂ債ｹ窶禿･窶弖(bishamonten)= ﾂ債敘陳｢(komainu)=ﾅｽ窶塲ｽq lion/dragon/unicorn= Vaisravana= sphinx= lamassu= cupid=cherubs angel guarding eden
War god of moses=yahwah=yaw=yam=poseidon etc.
Religion is basically fake story of god to collect money and loyalty.
Religion | real7777
Greedy Elites
Greedy Elite | real7777
Starvation
Starvation | real7777
Sumerism
Sumerism | real7777
Greedy elites in Sumer cradle of civilization created stories of god/hero/etc. to fleece from others.
Religion/king/empire/business etc follow same strategy of brainwashing, uniting, nationalism, team spirit etc.
Merchant love santa story that causes unnecessary spending by conned-sumer.
King Arthur story legitimize and con people into believing some special blood is needed.
Priest etc live in luxury while taking money from poor.
Spirited Away
this is also japanese spiritual background
Watch Videos Online | Spirited Away.avi | Veoh.com
this is also japanese spiritual background
Watch Videos Online | Spirited Away.avi | Veoh.com
- 27 Nov 2012
- 1,689
- 1,086
Caster, I'd consider your opinion, but you're so right wing, that you'd be classified a wing nut if you were American. Your opinion holds way less value to me than the hundreds of Japanese I've already encountered. Even your self made title, 先輩, denotes an arrogance that makes you an outcast in your country. A real senpai would be one, not declare themselves one.
Thanks for your YouTube clips though. You seem to be good with YouTube. YouTube is a source of truth in your mind, it seems.
Thanks for your YouTube clips though. You seem to be good with YouTube. YouTube is a source of truth in your mind, it seems.
No that is called 'irreligion' and even though the majority of Japan is mostly irreligious, they still celebrate religious holidays which makes them religious. So no, Japan is not 'atheist' or irreligious for the most part.
- 14 Mar 2002
- 21,054
- 18,910
< offtopic >
Sorry [MENTION=59234]nahadef[/MENTION], just a clarification: we're currently experimenting with user titles and implemented the 後輩 - 先輩 ranks. Caster hasn't chosen his by himself. Haven't found anything better yet.
< offtopic />
- 27 Nov 2012
- 1,689
- 1,086
Celebrating a religious holiday does not classify a person as religious. Half of Japan celebrates Christmas, but they aren't Christian.
Besides, much of Japan's 'celebration' of religious holidays is actually just days off of work. Few attribute religious importance to it.
Besides, much of Japan's 'celebration' of religious holidays is actually just days off of work. Few attribute religious importance to it.
- 27 Nov 2012
- 1,689
- 1,086
My apologies to Caster then. I thought he was being arrogant, since I knew we could only make our own titles before.
- 12 Oct 2013
- 4,071
- 5,023
- Thread starter
- #23
This is nothing like irreligion. Irreligion is (let me trot out Webster again)
Neither of which apply to Japan, or apply to the situation I was referring to. You may not like how the Japanese co-opt western traditions into their wedding ceremonies (just for the opportunity to wear a fancy dress) but it doesn't make them irreligious. Or atheist.
Don't many foreigners know the inside of house in Japan?
most japanese house have a Kamidana.
Kamidana - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Introduction of Japanese House - YouTube
rest of them
sdfsdflgggdl - YouTube
most japanese house have a Kamidana.
Kamidana - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Introduction of Japanese House - YouTube
rest of them
sdfsdflgggdl - YouTube
Last edited by a moderator:
Similar threads
