I am interested in historical kana usage.

[skanthan]

Please can someone tell me how kya, kyu, kyo, gya, gyu, gyo, sha, shu, sho etc were represented in historical kana usage? I am curious as i have a book from prior to 1945 which has a lot of archaic writing in there like くゎ, ぐゎ, ゐ and ゑ (Note: I pasted the kana on this post from a Wikipedia article about hiragana as I do not have a Japanese typing program on my computer.)

Also, I have seen what resembles an elongated く.. Perhaps someone can shed some light on that as well. Thank you!

 

[nekojita]

It's a bit complex as there can be more than one variant. For example, 今日 (きょう) was written けふ, but in other words きょう could have been きゃう or きやう. I think I've seen it suggested that there was a pronunciation difference in old Japanese which no longer exists - so part of the kana reform was standardising those spellings.

This link to Japanese wikipedia has some good tables. The bolded columns titled "現代かなづかい" show the modern spelling, the

くゎ = か ぐゎ = が , ゐ (wi) and ゑ (we) are w-line kana no longer in use (ゐ is sometimes seen where you'd have modern い and ゑ in place of え).

The elongated く is a repetition mark, see here (English wikipedia). The kanji repetition mark 々, is still very common in modern Japanese.

 

[skanthan]

Nekojita san,

Thank you so much for showing me this info. It is very interesting. Though I can not fluently understand Japanese, the context of the article is clear enough i can understand what is being talked about. It would have been interesting to see these old kana, namely, ゐ, ゑ, くゎ, ぐゎ still in use in modern Japanese. Although I do remember seeing ゐ, ゑ and を actually being used in words and names in Japanese newspapers from right after the earthquake that struck Kobe in 1995. Actually, from what I saw, the above were being used quite frequently in personal names and even saw a few archaic spellings as well ie: してゐたり and すゑ. Interestingly, ゐ and ゑ along with their katakana equivalents, ヰ and ヱ do appear in some modern (post 1945) kana charts. Even though these archaic kana and spelling are rarely used, it is good if people can know of their existence along with the you ons くゎ and ぐゎ.

 

[skanthan]

Dear Nekojita san,

Thankfully, i found an online Japanese typewriter at Lexilogos and now< I can type in Japanese without having to install a Japanese typing program on my computer! Sure, it will take some time to look for the correct kanji if I want to write something in kanji, but at least now I can type in Japanese!

Now, I can write 大阪 instead of Osaka!

 

[skanthan]

ゐ (yi) and ゑ (ye)

It seems to me that the letters ゐ and ゑ were actually pronounced as yi and ye respectively. I have read somewhere that they were actually pronounced as yi and ye, nit wi and we. But on the other hand, I had read in other places that the above kana were actually wi and we and that there was a separate kana for ye which looked like a hentaigana え. So, I really don't know. I have seen Japanese names such as Chieko, Mieko, Hakaito, Inoue etc written in hiragana as ちゑこ, みゑこ, はかゐとう and いのうゑ respectively and these spellings seem to indicate that ゐ and ゑ were in fact pronounced respectively as yi and ye. I also have heard it said that a kana for wu also existed at one time.
I have heard of kanjis such as 以, 宇 and 江 being used to represent certain archaic sounds in Modern Japanese orthography for the sake of reconstruction in books related to the history of the Japanese language.

 

[Toritoribe]

Modern names such like ちゑこ, みゑこ or いのうゑ are not good examples since ゐ and ゑ are completely the same pronunciations as い and え in modern Japanese, respectively. (はかゐとう doesn't make sense as a name.)
The pronunciations of ゐ, ゑ or 江(ヤ行) differs depending on what era are you referring to. え and 江 had been different in Old Japanese(上古日本語) but they became the same by the middle of the 10th century, then, the difference between え/江 and ゑ disappeared by the end of the 12th century. They were all pronounced as /ye/ at that time. Similarly, い and ゐ had been different but ゐ changed to /i/ in Late Middle Japanese(中世日本語).

In conclusion,
え: /ye/ or /e/
江: /ye/ or /e/
ゑ: /we/ or /ye/ or /e/
い: /i/
ゐ: /wi/ or /i/

 

[skanthan]

Actually, yeah I do remember reading that in the Internet and other places as well. But when I see archaic Romanizations such as Yebisu, Iyeyasu, Miyeko, Inouye etc and then regular え for e this hentaigana version of え for ye in some old charts, I get a little confused. I understand that in some dialects of Japanese these archaisms such as くゎ, ぐゎ, ゐ and ゑ still occur in spoken form.

Also, it seems to me when え occurs after syllables ending with い, う or お a slight y-glide occurs between え and the preceding vowel sound; i.e: いいえ(iie) sounds like iiye, 上 （ue） sounds something like uye etc. Same with the yi sound. The word 寒い （samui） sounds something like samuyi.

I do wonder though when the ye sound would have changed to e and find it interesting that back in the Meiji era , there was an attempt to introduce new kanas basically to fill in the gaps where yi, ye and wu would have stood.

 

[FinancialWar]

I know Hiragana was invented by Han Chinese, through their cursive style calligraphy.

 

[skanthan]

I know Hiragana was invented by Han Chinese, through their cursive style calligraphy.

No. Hiragana was invented by the Japanese.

 

[Majestic]

skanthan I think you are putting a bit more effort into this than is necessary. ゑ and ゐ, ヱ and ヰ only exist as historical relics, and they continue to exist because they evoke a certain bygone aura and are therefore occasionally useful in product branding. Since they appear from time to time in this context, they are still taught in school. But there is no historical persistence of vocalizing these characters in a different way.

As Toritoribe-san says, the vocalization was more or less harmonized by the Edo era . In any case, in modern Japanese nobody pronounces these old letters any differently than え and い.

Why is Ebisu called Yebisu? | JAPAN THIS!


If you are hearing a subtle "y" sound in いいえ, its because there is no other way of pronouncing this diphthong. The transition from い sound to え sound requires this kind of vocalization. To make a complete break after the いい and then pronounce the え separately would be ridiculous and incomprehensible. If you are hearing a "y" sound in words like さむい, you are imagining things, I think.

I suppose one reason the western orthographers of Japanese first used Ye and Yi for ゑ and ゐ is because these spellings gave a certain symmetry to the syllabary, and it was a convenient way to distinguish them from え and い.

 

[Toritoribe]

Agreed. That's the same as を is represented as "wo" in Romaji even though the pronunciation is completely the same as お "o" in Modern Japanese.

 

[skanthan]

No, I am not hearing anything. When I hear the word さむい, it does sound a bit to me like samuyi. Maybe that is just because I am not used to hearing or fluent in Japanese.

As I had said before, it is cool to see ゐ and ゑ from time to time in different modern contexts. And thanks for the article. Now I understand that prior to the 11the century, ゐ and ゑ were pronounced respectively as wi and we and after that, as i and e/ye. It was very interesting to see digitalized versions of some books from the Meiji era which teach about these.

 

[skanthan]

Agreed. That's the same as を is represented as "wo" in Romaji even though the pronunciation is completely the same as お "o" in Modern Japanese.

That's true. Although I have heard that some Japanese will pronounce を as wo for the purpose of emphasis!

 

[Toritoribe]

FYI, it's considered as a dialect, not for emphasis.

 

[skanthan]

FYI, it's considered as a dialect, not for emphasis.

Okay. I understand. It is the same with the archaic ye, kwa and gwa sounds occurring in some dialects of Japanese, particularly in the dialect of Kagoshima.

 

[Toritoribe]

particularly in the dialect of Kagoshima.

Where did you get it from? Do you have examples?

 

[skanthan]

Here:

Kagoshima dialect - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Okay. Maybe there is no mention in the above link of ye occurring in Kagoshima dialect, but the kwa and gwa sounds are mentioned.

 

[FinancialWar]

No. Hiragana was invented by the Japanese.

Japanese merely adopted it. Hiragana existed long before it's "invention" by the Japanese in the form of cursive form. You can not invention something that already existed.

 

[Morphling]

Fw better check your facts. 草書 is still 表意文字. 仮名 is 表音文字. There is no 表音文字 in Chinese before 注音 and now 拼音.

You know about the saying empty vessels makes the most noise right?

 

[FinancialWar]

Even the Japanese admits the kana comes from kanji, eg あ is from 安 etc.

 

[Morphling]

Hiragana was derived from 草書 but 草書 is not hiragana.

Do you comprehend? Probably not would be my guess. You are just going to repeat the same false logic again just to have the last say which is fine by me. Moving on...

 

[Toritoribe]

the only reason you(= FinancialWar) haven't been banned yet ... is that no one takes your pseudo-academic "linguistic" rants and your racial slur seriously. You are a slightly amusing troll, no more.

A girl wrote a kanji with incorrect stroke order in a drama

Here again... sigh...

Here:

Kagoshima dialect - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Okay. Maybe there is no mention in the above link of ye occurring in Kagoshima dialect, but the kwa and gwa sounds are mentioned.

Indeed, English version of Wikipedia mentioned it.

The labialized velar consonants /kʷ/ and /ɡʷ/ have limited use,
Nowadays, however, these sounds are in regression and younger speakers merge them with their non-labialized counterparts as in standard Japanese.

FYI, the reference site 鹿児島方言辞典: カ行 doesn't contain the examples such like "食ぇ /kʷe/" or "ぐぉっぐぉっ /ɡʷoQɡʷoQ/" anymore, farther, Japanese version of the Wikipedia page or another reference "Aspects of phonetic features in Kyushu dialect" doesn't mention it at all.

 

[skanthan]

Thank you for the links!

 

[skanthan]

Even the Japanese admits the kana comes from kanji, eg あ is from 安 etc.

Ok, ok. I understand what you are saying.