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How the Japanese deal with the English "L" Sound

Golgo_13

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27 Nov 2003
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Pronouncing the L sound has traditionally been very difficult for many Japanese simply because the sound does not exist in the Japanese language and also because the instructors in middle and high schools who are native Japanese cannot pronounce the sound very well themselves. In the past, any one of the Japanese ra, ri, ru, re, ro sounds has been used to pronounce the L.

E.g., lemon = remon, McDonald = Makudonarudo, Blue Light Yokohama = Buruu Raito Yokohama, etc.

What is most difficult for the Japanese to pronounce, however, is when the letter L is the last consonant pronounced in an English word, e.g., apple, nickel, beautiful, etc.

In the past, the Japanese pronounced these words as appuru, nikkeru, or byuutifuru.

However, what I've noticed as a recent trend is to NOT pronounce the letter L as a consonant but instead pronounce it as the vowel "u". In other words,

apple is now taught to be pronounced "appou", unbelievable is pronounced "anbiriibabou", and the Spanish/Portuguese surname "Silva" is pronounced "Shi'uba". I have seen these words written out in katakana in such new pronunciations in various forms of the printed media.

The problem with this new practice is, it doesn't help the situation any. If the word "apple" is now pronounced "appou" instead of the traditional "appuru," it's still no closer to the proper English pronunciation. If such a poorly-taught Japanese attempts to communicate with an English speaker, he would be MORE likely to not be understood because each Japanese sound is very clear and distinctive so a word pronounced as appo'u would make no sense to an English speaker.

Further, if students are taught to pronouce all words ending with an L instead with a vowel "u" they would probably become confused because some words will continue to be pronounced as:

Michael Jackson = Maikeru Jakuson,
double play = daburu purei, and
final round = fainaru raundo

Pronunciation cannot be learned from reading a textbook. The only way to teach how to produce proper English sounds is by hiring enough teachers who are native English speakers. UNtil then, I'd say don't try to fix something if it ain't broke.

I teach the "L" sound by impressing upon the [Japanese] student that words/sounds do not always end with a vowel as in Japanese. The "L" isn't la, li, lu, le, lo. It's just "L"--I have him/her place the tip of the tongue behind the front teeth and just make the "LLLLLLLL" sound without any vowels attached. Once he can do that, I'll have him say "ap" or "sing" then ad the "LLL" to it to form the sounds "apple" or "single."

Many of you here are in Japan teaching English. I welcome your comments.
 
I'm not a teacher, but that's interesting to have/read different ways to teaching Japanese students toward a more perfect English pronounciation. :)
 
Usually, when I write a word with L in Katakana, I just use the ra, ri, ru, re, ro and add 「゛」 to it. Especially if it needs to be clear that it's NOT an R. Example: lead, instead of red. Or lock, instead of rock.

But I only do this for personal use. I'm sure it's improper, and I don't even know if anyone else does it...
 
I emphasise the tongue movement when teaching about the L. And 'th'. A good practice word is feather to push in that fe and th are different and not to be lazy about. (leather is also good)

For L (and th) push the back of the top teeth
For fe bite bottom lip

Adding an a/i/u/e/o to a word that doesnt have it (appuru, big nono, take that u out!) is something else i try and focus on.


Sounds like a good idea to me, but it is probably the unoffical way of writing L in katakana. I remember V is ヴ (vu) and you add a little a/i/e/o to make it Va/Vi/Ve/Vo.

Anyone know any others?
 
Actually, Japanese "r" sound more like English "l" than "r", and Japanese have rather difficult to pronounce English "r", very difficult to pronounce rolled "r" like in Spanish, Italian or Dutch, and just can't say the flat "r" like in French or German. But the "l" are almost the same in all language and Japanese "r" are very similar, so that when they say "rice" English-speakers hear "lice", and when they say "road", it really sounds like "load". Even "wrong" sounds like "long" with a Japanese accent.

=> check my previous thread on that matter : Bad pronunciation make Japanese confuse foreign terms
 
i agree with Maciamo, i thin the problem is the letter "R" not "L".
Japanese have a very difficult tme pronouncing r. the japanese sound "R" in katakana is pronounced as a "L". It's an error in the original system of katakana. Among the thousands of other errors that didn't get asked to a native English person.

I still can't figure out why allergy is written as "alrerugi" in katakana instead of the far more accurate way of "areji".
i guess Japan could use some of France's "language police"
 
magikcow said:
the japanese sound "R" in katakana is pronounced as a "L". It's an error in the original system of katakana. Among the thousands of other errors that didn't get asked to a native English person.

Actually, the romaji system in use today has been created by an American, Mr Hepburn. Linguists argue that the Japanese "l" is actually a "r" as it is slightly rolled. But that doesn't matter as it really sounds like "l" to English speakers.

I still can't figure out why allergy is written as "alrerugi" in katakana instead of the far more accurate way of "areji".

That is because it doesn't come from English, but from German, like so many other medical term. Japanese don't say "bairusu" for "virus", but "biirusu" (from German) or "uirusu" (from Latin).
 
Hey, what's the story behind vu anyway? Is it new? Was it created recently? Like, within the last 100 years or something? Sometimes, it isn't listed on Katakana charts. Same goes for wi, we, wo.

If that is the case, couldn't the government or something just "create" L-Katakana? Or TH, which I feel is needed even more.
 
About the TH noise...

me said:
... when I write a word with L in Katakana, I just use the ra, ri, ru, re, ro and add 「゛」 to it. ...
Hey, I know what I'll do! Since adding it to S makes it Z, I'll just use the S-Katakana and put a little "TH" in the upper-right!
:p
 

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Well,now that u mentioned this,I really find this interesting for japanese language...its kinda like really making them hard to pronounce the word accurately due to the language system...and it would be wonderful for them to be able to adapt to it and teach the younger generations :)
 
Johnathan said:
Usually, when I write a word with L in Katakana, I just use the ra, ri, ru, re, ro and add 「゛」 to it. Especially if it needs to be clear that it's NOT an R. Example: lead, instead of red. Or lock, instead of rock.

But I only do this for personal use. I'm sure it's improper, and I don't even know if anyone else does it...

That's somthing similar to what linguist Moe Berg suggested to the Japanese gov't as described in his book "Moe Berg: Athlete, Scholar, Spy." During a trip to Japan, he was asked for a way to distinguish the two sounds. He suggested adding a cedilla mark to the bottom of the Katakana ra, ri, ru, re, ro (since words that contain an L are foreign anyway and therefore written in Katakana) to soften it to more resemble the English L sound.

An example of the use of a cedilla is the French letter "テ?. Without the little mark at the bottom, the C is sounded like a K; with the mark, it's softened to an S sound, e.g. faテァade. (Sorry if the symbols I inserted don't show up.)

It's also true about how the Japanese R sounds more like the English L. Occasionally I watch Japanese TV shows where English words are spoken by the narrator. "Round 1" almost invariably sounds to me like "Lound 1".
 
how the japanese ..English/ Well Others have the same..

Other cultures have similiar problems with English.

People who speak spanish don't pronounce constanant with hard sounds.
They use a soft sound for words and letters; C, K, CH, etc. etc....;

-> Cucumber (pronounced the "c" hard in English)
-> Muck (ck is pronounced hard in English)
-> Luck (ck is pronounced hard in English)
-> Choice (Ch pronounded hard in English)
 
The symbols I inserted in my post above came out all _ucked up. So sorry!


What do you all feel about this new practice of pronouncing the final consonant L as a vowel "u"?
 
Golgo_13 said:
That's somthing similar to what linguist Moe Berg suggested to the Japanese gov't as described in his book "Moe Berg: Athlete, Scholar, Spy." During a trip to Japan, he was asked for a way to distinguish the two sounds. He suggested adding a cedilla mark to the bottom of the Katakana ra, ri, ru, re, ro (since words that contain an L are foreign anyway and therefore written in Katakana) to soften it to more resemble the English L sound.

Useless. That won't make Japanese change their pronunciation. Anyhow, if they really wanted to, I think there are more important sounds to distinguish in katakana ; first of all the vowels (only 5 vs 13 in English). Either they should write English (and all foreign) words in romaji (even using phonetic symbols if necessary), or create new characters in katakana.

An example of the use of a cedilla is the French letter "$B%L(B". Without the little mark at the bottom, the C is sounded like a K; with the mark, it's softened to an S sound, e.g. fa$BmB(Bde.

"c" with cedille is only pronounced "k" in front of a "a", "u" or "o". Anyway, can't think of introducing that in Japanese. 😲
 
Maciamo said:
"c" with cedille is only pronounced "k" in front of a "a", "u" or "o". Anyway, can't think of introducing that in Japanese. 😲

One of the words I tried unsuccessfully to write with the cedilla was "facade" pronounced "fa sahd"

You're right about the shortage of verbs though. They should be able to distinguish between "first" and "fast", which in Japanese would both be pronounced the same: "faasuto". Or "bus" and "bath", both pronounced "basu".


I still don't think it's a good idea to teach the final consonant L to be pronounced "u". Who the hell in Japan's gonna start saying "bi'u" instead of "biru" to refer to a building or a guy named Bill?
 
I noticed that Japanese have problems pronouncing the "v", as well.
For Germans it's not so easy, too, because it is almost the same than the German "w", but slightly different. I learned to speak it correctly like this:
set the upper front-teeth on top of the lower lip very smoothly and and blow the air sofly through the teeth, like pronouncing an "f", but add a little bit of sound to it.
People always tell me that I have a very good pronounciation, so this was really heplful for me, I hope it will to others, as well!
 
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