lexico said:Yeah, I know what you mean. I think 4321go, not familiar with this forum, thought thesmile meant "I'm mad at you ! or You are mad !" Just a misunderstanding... *shrugs*
Wow, that explains it all. But I don't know how to fix it... maybe Kirei/or other mod. might know ?4321go said:Haha,when I quote ,I can't see the smilies but the code of the smilies,ie,= : m a d : .
That's why I misunderstanding the sentences.
deadhippo said:well, what was the point of the video again
im a bit lost
you are telling japan to repent because there are football hooligans in china
or because chinese people cant control their rage when their team loses a game so they want to tell japan to die and trash japanese diplomats cars
im sure im missing something
That's really humours; we are up to post no. 32, and we still don't know for sure what we are discussing (or dissing and cussing) !lonesoullost3 said:We never did get down to what the video was about. Though yes, it has been suggested it's about sports.
Well said duo, well said. I think this is the perfect moment to reflect upon what we are doing.Duo said:the craziness of online discussions i tell you.... where you can luv or hate somone just based on their words, if that isn't like the most unbiased thing ever, then i don't know what is
(in paraphrase; I'm sure he said something like that somewhere)Bossel said:We are here to discuss, not to change things.
well to quote myself for the first timedeadhippo said:you are telling japan to repent because there are football hooligans in china
or because chinese people cant control their rage when their team loses a game so they want to tell japan to die and trash japanese diplomats cars
I think I begin to get the picture; and you do have a point, deadhippo.deadhippo said:well to quote myself for the first time
this is what happened and this is what the video is about
thats why i was puzzled
i think the first post should have been
"football hooligans in China ...repent"
this was some chinese football fans reaction after losing to Japan in some cup
I am not about to launch a history lecture which I am not qualified to give; but merely point out that time after time, China's sovereignty was neglected, violated, and abused; and many developed nations took part in the aggression as a school of piranyjas take their small bites off a river-crossing horse unto death.Wikipedia said:The First Opium War was a trade-inspired war between the United Kingdom and the Qing Empire in China from 1839 to 1842. It is often seen as the beginning of European imperial hegemony towards China. The conflict began a long history of Chinese resentment toward Western society that still has remnants today.
Anger against what my friend?? Losing a football match against another team?? Oh man, that's so childish! Sport and politics are not to be mixed and supporters should be fair play and accept defeat. That's the way to keep our heads up, not rioting ...4321go said:....the way to express anger!
Not only for the football,but also for...
How to say... "make use of a subject to elaborate one's own ideas"
I must say you write well. I think you analyse pretty well that "anger"/frustration that has been pent up and that is now being unleashed, triggered partly by some of Japan's leaders faux pas and partly by nationalist propaganda, whenever the occasion presents.lexico said:I am not about to launch a history lecture ...
... understanding, and empathy.
Thanks. You seem to say that the demostrations had mixed elements as always, and that the so-called "instigators" might not have been motivated by the best of reasons.masayoshi said:I must say you write well. I think you analyse pretty well that "anger"/frustration that has been pent up and that is now being unleashed, triggered partly by some of Japan's leaders faux pas and partly by nationalist propaganda, whenever the occasion presents.
I believe we are in general agreement. Nevertheless I would think "violent" is a rather strong word. To rape, kill, and maim is violent while angry shouts of condemnation is not. To ease the pain, we as outsiders, would do best to be civil in our protest to the regrettable (not violent) means of protest.I can understand but I don't approve at all of the violent methods.
Whoa, sorry !Just like I can understand what drives Islamic terrorists but despise their methods. Showing aggression towards Japan is now futile. It's very counter-productive since Koizumi and co won't change as it can show they're bowing to Chinese thugs
Hi, Deadhippo from Ireland.deadhippo said:hi Lexico
I am from Ireland
a country which i believe has suffered a great more at the hands of the english than the Chinese have at the hands of Japanese relatively speaking.
Of course Irish society suffered "a collapse of the Gaelic social and political superstructure at the end of the 17th century" with the result that Irish royalty and a considerable portion of Irish nobility fled to Catholic refuge countries on the continent, but the kind of large scale civillian/POW massacre as seen during WWII IJA invasion of China is not there. Please provide info to back up your statement, "The Irish suffered a great more at the hands of the English than the Chinese have at the hands of Japanese." When compared to the 10 million Chinese civilian deaths, I don't see how Ireland's tragedy would be considered "relatively" greater. Are you thinking about deaths per square mile or km2 ?Wiki said:Anglo-Norman and English control (1172 to 1800)
Irish Rebellion of 1798
death toll range from almost 10,000 to well over 30,000
Union with Britain, 1801 to 1922
1922 to the present (in the Free State/the Republic)
1921 to 1971 in Northern Ireland: "A Protestant State and a Protestant People"
1971 to 1998 in Northern Ireland: Direct Rule
1998 to the present: Devolution, more Direct Rule
Wiki said:Irish Rebellion of 1641: English casualties, genocide ?
The number of British Protestants killed in the early months of the uprising is controversial, early Parliamentarian pamphlets claiming that over 100,000 settlers had lost their lives. In fact, recent research has shown that the number is far more modest, in the region of 4000 or so killed, though many thousands were expelled from their homes. The general pattern around the country was that the violence of the attacks intensified the longer the rebellion went on. At first, there were beatings and robbing of local Protestants, then house burnings and expulsions and finally widespread killings, most of them concentrated in Ulster. The bitterness created by the massacres of 1641 proved extremely long lasting. Ulster Protestants commemorated the anniversary of the rebellion every October for over two hundred years after the event. Images of the massacres of 1641 are still represented on the banners of the Orange Order. Even today, the killings, despite being a very small fraction of the foreign settler population in Ireland are thought of by some as an example of attempted genocide.
Under the Penal Laws, Catholics (read Irish) could not practice their faith, hold office, carry weapons, teach school, purchase or lease land, marry a Protestant, work at any scientific endeavor or own a horse worth more than five pounds. If you were lucky enough to be a Catholic horse owner and a Protestant approached you with an offer to buy your horse for the sum of five pounds you had to sell. If you refused you would be executed.
Thanks for being patient with me, and sharing your knowledge; I meant no disregard for the plights of the Irish the degree of which I did not well-understand.deadhippo said:Hi Lexico
I can understand your indignation if you think it was some baseless comment
by relatively i meant regarding time and the percentage of our population that was killed
so the struggles started in the late 11th century with an invasion of normans ...
well i guess the first major scale atrocities happened when cromwell came to ireland
when he arrived the population was about 1.5 million
within 9 years (when he died) they say the population was down to 500,000
this includes an estimated 60,000 sent into slavery
this wasnt the first or last time irish people were sent into slavery by the british
he also introduce the penal laws
...
and the fact that ireland is still partly colonized
...
by relatively i meant that i think that japan has never reduced the chinese population by two thirds and didnt colonise a large part of and sometimes all of for 800 years or so.
I understand that you believe in knowing, but rationalising, and moving forward; and that might be one of the better options given the circumstances. I unfortunately don't, unless at least a satisfying recognition be given to the wrongs of the past. Regarding those wrongs of the past, I find it insulting that there are people who try to whitewash it and minimise it to the point of saying, "It never happened/It was a fabrication by the Allied Poweres/the Tribunal," or "I/They didn't do it," and "I/they weren't born then." I call those historical perjury on, and evasion of duty to bear truthful witness to, genocidal crimes. I, therefore, refuse to let go till full recognition be given. That, as a fellow human being of both the victims and the aggressors, is my last resort to preserve sanity.NOTE: im not bitter about this it was mostly before my time and i have nothing against english people
also im not saying that chinese people didnt have a hard time under japans thumb but what i am saying is that it is no excuse to act as a hooligans and especially out of anger at losing a football match.
Please understand; I meant no intention to belittle the Irish suffering; at first I thought it was indeed an Irish genocide...Still I thought I'd run it by you to see what you thought. I apologise if it was inflammatory.*edit
regarding the "genocide" of 4000 british people you should be think about where the english people were and how they got there, its not like irish people went over to england to kill them.
I really appreciate your taking the time to dig these up and sharing on the forum. I always believe in exposing the wound, before any healing can happen. It will not look pretty, the faint hearted might not be able to take it.*edit #2
cromwell in ireland
everybody seems to have different figures but the story is still the same
Ethnic CLeansing: Millenium Perspective said:The Great Terrors
In 1520, when Henry VIII broke with Rome, it added religion to the bias against the Catholic Irish. Under Henry's daughter, the murderous Queen Elizabeth I (1533-1603), the killing fields of Ireland ran red with the blood of innocent victims. It is estimated 1.5 million Irish peasants were starved or ﾂ"put to the swordﾂ" and much of their lands seized by English predators, while she reigned.
By the time the zealot Oliver Cromwell arrived on the scene, the Irish were ripe for more carnage . ﾂ"It has pleased God to bless our endeavors,ﾂ" he wrote of the mass slaughter in 1649, by his Puritan troops of 3,552 Irish inhabitants of the seaport town of Drogheda, just north of Dublin. He pompously continued, ﾂ"I am persuaded that this is a righteous judgment of God upon these barbarous wretches.ﾂ" This Drogheda massacre is one of the leading examples of the insidious British policy of ethnic cleansing in Ireland. Another is Cromwell's sacking of Wexford and the killing of 2,000 of its citizens.
The infamous ﾂ"Cromwellian Settlementsﾂ" followed his conquest of Ireland. Millions of acres of land (41 percent of Antrim, 26 percent of Down, 34 percent of Armagh and 38 percent of Monaghan) were allocated to English Protestant settlers. The landowners of Irish birth were either killed, banished or forced out to Connaught in the west of Ireland, where it was hoped ﾂ"they would starve to death.ﾂ" A Cromwell biographer labeled this massive confiscation of Irish lands, ﾂ"by far the most wholesale effort to impose on Ireland the Protestant faith and English ascendancy.ﾂ" The British policy of colonizing Ireland with Protestants still has repercussions which are felt today on the streets of Belfast.
>From 1649 to 1652, one-third of the population of Ireland was destroyed. Petty, an English historian says, ﾂ"660,000 Irish people were killed.ﾂ"[13] Twenty thousand Irish boys and girls also were sold into slavery to the West Indies. The Irish peasant farmers that survived were forced to pay rent to their usurpers. Once prosperous home grown industries were also destroyed because they ﾂ"competed with British factories.ﾂ"
The memory of the holocausts under Elizabeth I and Cromwell have been forever seared into the psyche of the Irish race. Cromwell's evil idea that Irish Catholics were ﾂ"barbarous wretchesﾂ" has, too, unfortunately, passed into the British mindset.
Parliament reacted to Cromwell's crime against humanity in Ireland by passing an infamous Resolution that legitimized ethnic cleansing. It stated, ﾂ"The House doth approve the execution done at Drogheda, as an act both of justice to them and mercy to others who may be warned by it.ﾂ"
After the shaky British monarchy was restored in 1660, under Charles II, the vicious propaganda against Irish Catholics continued unabated. Many of the ﾂ"vilest pamphletsﾂ" hyping the threat of a supposed ﾂ"Popish Plotﾂ" against the Crown were printed in Holland.
When James II, Charles' brother, succeeded him as King of England and Ireland in 1685, the hopes of Irish Catholics rose. His defeat, however, by the forces of William of Orange, at the Battle of the Boyne in 1690, on July 12, brought renewed disaster. More confiscations of Irish lands followed and the adoption into law of the notorious ﾂ"Penal Lawsﾂ" in the late 1690s. Their net effect was to hold that, ﾂ"The law does not presume any such person to exist as an Irish Roman Catholic.ﾂ"
As time passed, there were periodic, but failed, rebellions in Ireland. In 1845, with nationalist aspirations at their lowest ebb, the moans of the starving were heard. The potato crop was blighted and famine stalked the land.
I would be interested to know how the schools and textbooks in Eire, Northern Ireland, Scotland, Wales and England describe, evaluate, and teach the English atrocities on the Irish on the historical Ireland, ie. N.Ireland and the Republic of Eire.Ethnic CLeansing: Millenium Perspective said:The Irish Genocide
Author Thomas Gallagher sets the scene for this unspeakable tragedy in his moving testament to the Irish dead, Paddy's Lament:
ﾂ"A famine unprecedented in the history of the world, a chapter in human misery to harrow the human heart was about to start, and even little children could see its quick, sure approach in the nakedly fearful eyes and faces of their parents.ﾂ"
By the mid-19th century, Ireland was a country of eight million, mostly peasants. As a result of years of exploitation, they survived as tenant farmers and were never far from economic disaster. They were forced to exist on a single crop: the potato. A disease turned the potato into a foul slime. When the Irish masses turned to the British government for relief, they received the back of London's hand.
Meanwhile, ﾂ"Food, from 30 to 50 shiploads per day, was removed at gunpoint (from Ireland) by 12,000 British constables, reinforced by 200,000 British soldiers, warships, excise vessels, and coast guards... Britain seized from Ireland's producers tens of millions of head of livestock, tens of millions of tons of flour, grains, meat, poultry and dairy products-enough to sustain 18-million persons.ﾂ"
Gallagher estimates two million died from the famine. Writer Chris Fogarty, however, places the numbers ﾂ"murdered at approximately 5.16 million... making it the Irish holocaust.ﾂ" Distinguished legal scholars, like Professors Charles Rice of Notre Dame U. and Francis A. Boyle, U. of Illinois, believe that under International Law, that the British pursued a barbarous policy of mass starvation in Ireland from 1845-50, and that such conduct constituted ﾂ"genocide.ﾂ"
The Japanese people were also the victims of the war. It has been always the policy of our party and government to draw a clear distinction between the few militarists and Japanese people.
4321go said:I'd say:the key of the difference is the present. Chinese is tolerant, In fact, China abnegate the reparations that Japan should pay after the war! and Japan and China establish diplomatic relations in 1970's.
A most recent poll in Dec 2004 shows, given a referendum vote on independence, unification or becoming a state of U.S., 41% of Taiwanese residents support independence, 24% choose unification and a 15% would be in favor of becoming a 51st state of U.S