How do you know... ON/KUN and beyond

[Elizabeth]

Yes, へ would be more common, but you can use に, too.

Are you talking about in the example of traveling (overseas etc) へ is more likely than に帰る ?
Because I somehow end up seeing に much more that that for everyday activities (going back to a house, hometown, back to someone, etc.)

 

[Putrefaction]

～ので : to state the reason (sentence + ので）

～にいく : go to ～
e.g.
図書館に勉強しに行く go to the library to study
散歩に行く、散歩しに行く go for a walk

D'oh! These two I knew, and the ので I've been using forever, I thought maybe it was something special.

As a friend of mine is going back to his country
I went to the airport to see him off.

Ah, that is what I was thinking but I couldn't make the sentence out fully.

One of the meanings of 送る：
去って行く人と一緒に行く。
(accompany someone who is leaving, often to see off the person.)

(ア)去って行く人に、途中まで、あるいは目的地までついて行く。
e.g.
「駅まで送って行く」「車で家まで送る」
(イ)去って行く人に対し、別れる地点で名残を惜しんだり別れの挨拶したりする。
e.g.
「成田空港で両親を送った」「 A 君を送る会」
http://dictionary.goo.ne.jp/leaf/jn/24717/m0u/送る/

☝Many things to look up in the dictionary and mull over.

Yes, へ would be more common, but you can use に, too.

Cool!

まで indicates a destination; not only "temporal"(i.e. "until") but also "spatial."

Yes, I remember in Genki, not only 一時から二時まで but as well as 東京から京都まで。

As undrentide-san explained, 送りに行った is an ambiguous expression. It can be interpreted both as 見送りに行った and 送って行った.

空港まで見送りに行った。
I went to the airport to see him/her off.

空港まで送って行った。
I took him/her to the airport.

I wonder, why can't you say 空港に送って行った？So 見送り means "to send someone off" according to WWWJDIC. Hm.

The reason "I" went to the airport was "a friend of mine will go back to his/her own country," or s/he hasn't gone back yet at that time. That's why the present form is used here. See below. "I" felt lonely AFTER s/he went back.

友達が国へ帰ったので、寂しくなった。
I felt lonely, because my friend went back to his/her own country.

Makes sense to me! (for now)

Actually, I am editing this. I remember something about verb states.
友達が国へ帰っているので，寂しかった。
Would this translate to, Because my friend went back to their country, I was lonely?

 

[Toritoribe]

Are you talking about in the example of traveling (overseas etc) 窶堙 is more likely than 窶堙俄?ｹA窶堙ｩ ?
Because I somehow end up seeing 窶堙 much more that that for everyday activities (going back to a house, hometown, back to someone, etc.)

Hmm, I do some research, and yes, 窶堙 is more often used in a corpus. They would be basically interchangeable.

I wonder, why can't you say 窶ｹﾃｳﾂ港窶堙俄?倪?披?堙≫?堙?行窶堙≫?堋ｽﾂ？So ﾅ陳ｩ窶倪?披?堙ｨ means "to send someone off" according to WWWJDIC. Hm.

窶倪?披?堙≫?堙?行窶堋ｭ is not same to ﾅ陳ｩ窶倪?披?堙ｩ. 窶ｹﾃｳﾂ港窶堙懌?堙??倪?披?堙≫?堙?行窶堙≫?堋ｽ just means that "I" dropped him off at the airport, so "I" might leave him and might not see him off.

窶認窶傳窶堋ｪﾂ坂?倪?堙問?ｹA窶堙≫?堙??堋｢窶堙ｩ窶堙娯?堙?，ﾅｽﾃ｢窶堋ｵ窶堋ｩ窶堙≫?堋ｽﾂ。
Would this translate to, Because my friend went back to their country, I was lonely?

Yes. 窶ｹA窶堙≫?堙??堋｢窶堙ｩ often has a nuance of "they will return here."

 

[nhk9]

I don't know if the OP will read this, but here's my take on it anyway.

There are not too many shortcuts around this problem. It's a matter of just understanding lots and lots and lots of word. Even the Japanese stumble on them sometimes (eg. 窶佛?ﾅｽE is pronounsed sousai, but many of the uninitiated would incorrectedly pronounce it sousatu)

You are looking at an understanding of 30000-60000 words if you really want to carry out more intellectual conversations. Goodluck.

 

[Elizabeth]

I don't know if the OP will read this, but here's my take on it anyway.
There are not too many shortcuts around this problem. It's a matter of just understanding lots and lots and lots of word. Even the Japanese stumble on them sometimes (eg. 相殺 is pronounsed sousai, but many of the uninitiated would incorrectedly pronounce it sousatu)

Both are viable pronunciations with slightly different meanings attached. そうさつ is when two people kill each, and both end up dying simultaneously ? お互いに殺し合う

 

[undrentide]

Both are viable pronunciations with slightly different meanings attached. 窶堋ｻ窶堋､窶堋ｳ窶堙 is when two people kill each, and both end up dying simultaneously ? 窶堋ｨﾅ津昶?堋｢窶堙嫁ｽE窶堋ｵﾂ坂?｡窶堋､

Yes 窶佛?ﾅｽE can be pronounced either 窶堋ｻ窶堋､窶堋ｳ窶堋｢ (offset) and 窶堋ｻ窶堋､窶堋ｳ窶堙 (kill each other), but in daily conversation 窶佛?ﾅｽEﾂ（窶堋ｻ窶堋､窶堋ｳ窶堙つ） is hardly used while 窶佛?ﾅｽEﾂ（窶堋ｻ窶堋､窶堋ｳ窶堋｢ﾂ） is very common. ;-)

 

[nhk9]

Thank you for the verification undrentide san.

It would seem to me then it`s a matter of using the wrong pronunciation at the wrong time. I think the people who pronounce it sousatu would be incorrect when they try to use it as the word to offset

In English there`s a similar problem with the word `minute` I think.

 

[Putrefaction]

ﾂ債｡窶敕凪?堙坂?堙昶?堙ｱ窶堙遺?堋ｳ窶堙ｱﾂ；

I am starting up again - I am rusty so I have to re-do everything. I am also incredibly busy, but I wanted to say:

ﾂ債｡窶愿ｺ窶愿ｺ窶怒ﾅ津ｪ窶堙個静ｦﾂ青ｶ窶堙?彙窶堋ｵ窶堋ｽﾂ。窶堙?窶堋､窶｢ﾂｪ窶堋ｩ窶堙ｨ窶堙懌?堋ｹ窶堙ｱﾂ。窶堙??堋､窶堋ｵ窶堙?？

ﾂ（I just don't understand the blue one at all.)

I cannot escape the thought process that the 窶堙娯?堙 in the first sentence is a nominalizer that makes ﾅｽ窶樞?堋ｪﾂ青ｶ窶堙懌?堙ｪ窶堋ｽ the subject, much like the red boxed sentences.

As per -窶堙寂?堋ｩ窶堙ｨ and -窶堙??堋ｱ窶堙ｫ my professor told me to just consider them the same thing as to relieve my mind.

This book is difficult straight off the bat from the first lesson, and I don't think I've struggled as much as this in this language.

 

[Glenn]

ﾂ債｡窶敕凪?堙坂?堙昶?堙ｱ窶堙遺?堋ｳ窶堙ｱ

It's 窶堙昶?堙遺?堋ｳ窶堙ｱ.

ﾅｽ窶樞?堋ｪﾂ青ｶ窶堙懌?堙ｪ窶堋ｽ窶堙娯?堙債坂?塲ｽR窶堙??堋｢窶堋､窶卍ｬ窶堙??堋ｷﾂ。
Here you can think of the 窶堙 as being a pronoun, like "one" (its usual use as a pronoun). "The one I was born is a town called Takayama." It doesn't work all that well in English, but that's the basic structure of the Japanese.

窶愿ｺ窶怒窶堙??堙債、窶ｰﾂｽ窶堙?ﾅ陳ｾ窶堙ｭ窶堙遺?堋｢窶堙?食ﾅｽ窶凪?堙ｰﾅｽn窶堙溪?堙ｩ窶堙娯?堙最ｽﾂｸ窶氾ｧ窶堋ｾﾂ。
Here the 窶堙 is nominalizing ﾂ食ﾅｽ窶凪?堙ｰﾅｽn窶堙溪?堙ｩ at the least, and maybe even as much everything that comes before it. You can replace it with 窶堋ｱ窶堙 without much difference.

ﾂ宿窶佚ｨ窶堙ｰ窶堋ｵ窶堙遺?堋｢窶堙??wﾂ校窶堙問?藩 ??堙ｩ窶堙娯?堙坂?氾??堋ｭ窶堙遺?堋｢ﾂ。
This is the same structure as above.

ﾂ図ﾂ鞘?佛?ﾃ吮?堙鳴行窶堋ｩ窶堙遺?堋｢窶堙??ｰﾃ??堙??｢ﾃ冷?ｹﾂｭ窶堋ｷ窶堙ｩﾅ?wﾂ青ｶ窶堙?窶堋｢窶堙ｩﾂ。
The 窶堙? here is there to show that just as there are students who go to the library to study, there are those who don't and just study at home.

As per -窶堙寂?堋ｩ窶堙ｨ and -窶堙??堋ｱ窶堙ｫ my professor told me to just consider them the same thing as to relieve my mind.

That may be best for now.

 

[Putrefaction]

Ah, already making mistakes my first day in! Also, wow, thanks for the 早い返事。

Right, I was told to think of it as a pronoun. Unfortunately, the sentence structure I am used to is the object being introduced, THEN the の。For example, 私が生まれたまちは高山というのです is perfectly understandable for me.

Yes, in the red boxes I interpreted everything before the のは as being the subject of being rude.

So that もいる is も：also and いる：is (exists)? Maybe like 自転車がある。車もある。？

Oh, I forgot about that problem I had with のころ。That was a hassle and a half. It turned out that he told me that ばかり was treated like a noun, or something of that nature. I think I can get it now but it is extremely shaky.

 

[Glenn]

Right, I was told to think of it as a pronoun. Unfortunately, the sentence structure I am used to is the object being introduced, THEN the 窶堙個。For example, ﾅｽ窶樞?堋ｪﾂ青ｶ窶堙懌?堙ｪ窶堋ｽ窶堙懌?堋ｿ窶堙債坂?塲ｽR窶堙??堋｢窶堋､窶堙娯?堙??堋ｷ is perfectly understandable for me.

Yeah. This sort of thing happens in English too, by the way. "The one I had problems with was #3," for example.

Yes, in the red boxes I interpreted everything before the 窶堙娯?堙 as being the subject of being rude.

Does that mean you understand it now?

So that 窶堙?窶堋｢窶堙ｩ is 窶堙?ﾂ：also and 窶堋｢窶堙ｩﾂ：is (exists)? Maybe like ﾅｽﾂｩ窶彎ﾅｽﾃ披?堋ｪ窶堋?窶堙ｩﾂ。ﾅｽﾃ披?堙?窶堋?窶堙ｩﾂ。ﾂ？

Yes, it's "also" and "exist".

Oh, I forgot about that problem I had with 窶堙娯?堋ｱ窶堙ｫﾂ。That was a hassle and a half. It turned out that he told me that 窶堙寂?堋ｩ窶堙ｨ was treated like a noun, or something of that nature. I think I can get it now but it is extremely shaky.

Hmm... they're both nouns. I'm not sure what sort of problems you were having with them, though.

 

[Putrefaction]

Well, I can understand the red boxes 100% because I've been used to them.

The problem I was having was, as usual, the の, I thought as possessive. 日本に行ったばかりのころ I interpreted it as "japan gone to recently's time" instead of "the time i went to japan recently". It is still extremely hard for me, with 一時ごろ and etc on the previous pages. From what I understand, nouns take のころ／のごろ whereas verbs do not have a の，much like とき (学生のとき／たべるとき）。

今晩，８２５から８７２まで漢字を勉強したところです。I am doing it in reverse order because from 1-500 I memorized everything, so this is the best way to do it again, I think. Then I can work forwards to where I was again! I am also reading Genki I and Genki II again, but between that, school, labs, and work, and other studying...大変です。

 

[Toritoribe]

From what I understand, nouns take 窶堙娯?堋ｱ窶堙ｫﾂ／窶堙娯?堋ｲ窶堙ｫ whereas verbs do not have a 窶堙個，much like 窶堙??堋ｫ (ﾅ?wﾂ青ｶ窶堙娯?堙??堋ｫﾂ／窶堋ｽ窶堙冷?堙ｩ窶堙??堋ｫﾂ）ﾂ。

No, the expression 窶堙娯?堋ｲ窶堙ｫ doesn't exist. It's only 窶堙娯?堋ｱ窶堙ｫ.

How do you know... ON/KUN and beyond

 

[Elizabeth]

So that もいる is も：also and いる：is (exists)? Maybe like 自転車がある。車もある。？

図書館へ行かないで家で勉強する学生もいる。

Emphasizing those who do and others who do not. There are also (some) students who study at home instead of going to the library.

Depending on context, "もある" can also have the subtext of fewer or more occasionally than "がある."


My recommendation is still that the best way to study is to listen to as much spoken Japanese as possible. The cheapest, most convenient (alas most annoying and painful....???) way to do this is Internet radio or podcasts on the run.

ganbattene!!!

 

[Putrefaction]

I see. So the no koro is turned to goro.

Listening is my weak spot. That and conversation haha. I have another thought.

犯罪をしている人 / 犯罪をする人

If these two sentences are gramatically correct, would this mean "A person committing crimes" and "A crime committer"?

I'm on 760 Kanji now.

--
Reviewing Genki I. Came across something interesting.
PFさんはXさんのことが好きです。（Romantically)
ペンはテブルのよこです。（Not そば or となり）

Is this sentence acceptable?
東京はにぎやかなのです。(の＝another 東京）

I'm also reading about 降りる...isn't おりる also a honorific verb?

Since it is は。。。あります instead of が。。。あります it is like what was mentioned a few pages ago, not saying "There is ... that exists" but the fact it is located there, right?

--
I'm on Lesson 7 grammar, the one with

These are still killing me. This post and this post I have to look over. But as I put before:

I have trouble with "I went out for an hour"...it works? Is it because it's not an "activity", but it is a change?

What about sleep? Isn't that a huge change? You go from sleeping until you are awake....

So if I were to say that PFは本を借りています...what would it mean? Does it mean that he is borrowING the book?

How about 電車を乗っている？

And how would you say "he is crossing the street"?

Why is 住んでいる not a "continous action Group 1" verb?

 

[Toritoribe]

I see. So the no koro is turned to goro.

No, not always. 窶堋ｲ窶堙ｫ is used with temporal/time-concerning words, as I wrote.
ﾋ?ｪﾅｽﾅｾ窶堋ｲ窶堙ｫ, 窶吮?ｹ窶堋ｲ窶堙ｫ, 窶督ｾ窶愿ｺ窶堋ｲ窶堙ｫ, ﾂ静ｦﾂ週窶堋ｲ窶堙ｫ, 窶藩?椎ｽ窶堋ｲ窶堙ｫ, ﾂ秋窶堋ｲ窶堙ｫ, 窶藩??扼窶堋ｲ窶堙ｫ,,,,

ﾂ≫?ｺﾂ渉ｭ窶扼窶堙娯?堋ｱ窶堙ｫ
ﾂ×ﾂ渉ｭ窶扼窶堋ｲ窶堙ｫ

ﾂ≫?ｺﾅ?wﾂ青ｶ窶堙娯?堋ｱ窶堙ｫ
ﾂ×ﾅ?wﾂ青ｶ窶堋ｲ窶堙ｫ

ﾂ≫?ｺﾂ催ｷ窶堙娯?堋ｱ窶堙ｫﾂ（ﾂ??催ｷ窶堙娯?ｰﾃ披?堙個催ｧ窶堋ｭ/ﾂ催ｧ窶堋｢窶堙??堋｢窶堙ｩ窶堋ｱ窶堙ｫﾂ）
ﾂ×ﾂ催ｷ窶堋ｲ窶堙ｫ

窶敕?催溪?堙ｰ窶堋ｵ窶堙??堋｢窶堙ｩﾂ人 / 窶敕?催溪?堙ｰ窶堋ｷ窶堙ｩﾂ人

If these two sentences are gramatically correct, would this mean "A person committing crimes" and "A crime committer"?

The former is for the progressive or "the one who is committing a crime."

Is this sentence acceptable?
窶愬停?ｹﾅｾ窶堙坂?堙俄?堋ｬ窶堙｢窶堋ｩ窶堙遺?堙娯?堙??堋ｷﾂ。(窶堙個?‖notherﾂ 窶愬停?ｹﾅｾﾂ）

No. The pronoun should be 窶堙??堋ｱ窶堙ｫ for that case. The 窶堙 in 窶愬停?ｹﾅｾ窶堙坂?堙俄?堋ｬ窶堙｢窶堋ｩ窶堙遺?堙娯?堙??堋ｷ is interpreted as the explanatory 窶堙啓/url], as same as the 窶堙 in ﾅｽ窶樞?堋ｪﾂ青ｶ窶堙懌?堙ｪ窶堋ｽ窶堙懌?堋ｿ窶堙債坂?塲ｽR窶堙??堋｢窶堋､窶堙娯?堙??堋ｷ.

I'm also reading about ﾂ降窶堙ｨ窶堙ｩ...isn't 窶堋ｨ窶堙ｨ窶堙ｩ also a honorific verb?

:?You meant 窶堋ｨ窶堙ｧ窶堙ｪ窶堙ｩ, by any chance?

Since it is 窶堙債。ﾂ。ﾂ。窶堋?窶堙ｨ窶堙懌?堋ｷ instead of 窶堋ｪﾂ。ﾂ。ﾂ。窶堋?窶堙ｨ窶堙懌?堋ｷ it is like what was mentioned a few pages ago, not saying "There is ... that exists" but the fact it is located there, right?

[url]https://jref.com/showthread.php?p=633252#post633252

I have trouble with "I went out for an hour"...it works? Is it because it's not an "activity", but it is a change?

What about sleep? Isn't that a huge change? You go from sleeping until you are awake....

So if I were to say that PF窶堙坂?怒窶堙ｰﾅｽﾃ倪?堙ｨ窶堙??堋｢窶堙懌?堋ｷ...what would it mean? Does it mean that he is borrowING the book?

How about 窶彭ﾅｽﾃ披?堙ｰﾂ湘ｦ窶堙≫?堙??堋｢窶堙ｩﾂ？

And how would you say "he is crossing the street"?

Why is ﾂ住窶堙ｱ窶堙??堋｢窶堙ｩ not a "continous action Group 1" verb?

You need to think about it in Japanese. For instance, ﾋ?ｪﾅｽﾅｾﾅ?ﾃ板出窶堋ｩ窶堋ｯ窶堙??堋｢窶堋ｽ is far more common than ﾋ?ｪﾅｽﾅｾﾅ?ﾃ板出窶堋ｩ窶堋ｯ窶堋ｽ.
There's a Japanese proverb ﾂ習窶堋､窶堙ｦ窶堙ｨﾅ?ﾂｵ窶堙ｪ窶堙ｫ.;-)

 

[Elizabeth]

--
Reviewing Genki I. Came across something interesting.
PF窶堋ｳ窶堙ｱ窶堙更窶堋ｳ窶堙ｱ窶堙娯?堋ｱ窶堙??堋ｪﾂ好窶堋ｫ窶堙??堋ｷﾂ。ﾂ（Romantically)
ﾆ馳ﾆ停?懌?堙哉弾ﾆ置ﾆ停?ｹ窶堙啓B]窶堙ｦ窶堋ｱ[/B]窶堙??堋ｷﾂ。ﾂ（Not 窶堋ｻ窶堙 or 窶堙??堙遺?堙ｨﾂ）

Difference between yoko/よこ and tonari/となり

 

[Glenn]

窶彭ﾅｽﾃ披?堙ｰﾂ湘ｦ窶堙≫?堙??堋｢窶堙ｩﾂ？

That should be 窶彭ﾅｽﾃ納COLOR="Red"]窶堙閏/B][/COLOR]ﾂ湘ｦ窶堙≫?堙??堋｢窶堙ｩ. This isn't Korean.

 

[Putrefaction]

I actually forgot how to say, "I can speak better in English than Japanese".


私は英語より日本語の話せるのほうが上手です？ Sounds very wrong.

 

[Half-n-Half]

I might just say （私は）英語より日本語のほうが上手です。

 

[Toritoribe]

I actually forgot how to say, "I can speak better in English than Japanese".


ﾅｽ窶樞?堙坂?ｰpﾅ津ｪ窶堙ｦ窶堙ｨ窶愿ｺ窶怒ﾅ津ｪ窶堙戸彙窶堋ｹ窶堙ｩ窶堙娯?堙吮?堋､窶堋ｪﾂ湘｣ﾅｽﾃｨ窶堙??堋ｷﾂ？ Sounds very wrong.

Actually, that's the opposite.;-)

ﾅｽ窶樞?堙坂?愿ｺ窶怒ﾅ津ｪ窶堙ｦ窶堙ｨ窶ｰpﾅ津ｪ窶堙ｰﾋ彙窶堋ｷ窶堙吮?堋､窶堋ｪﾂ湘｣ﾅｽﾃｨ窶堙??堋ｷ/ﾅｽ窶樞?堙坂?愿ｺ窶怒ﾅ津ｪ窶堙ｦ窶堙ｨ窶ｰpﾅ津ｪ窶堙娯?堙吮?堋､窶堋ｪﾂ湘｣ﾅｽﾃｨ窶堙架彙窶堋ｹ窶堙懌?堋ｷﾂ。

 

[Putrefaction]

Whoops! 早い返事ありがとう！ I'm glad to see I remember at least that much.

Now, I think I see why there is no の after hanasu, it is a verb, not a noun. Is there a reason I shouldn't have put はなせる?

I'm gonna study a bit tonight, nothing too new though...

 

[Putrefaction]

I think this is incorrect.

７月７日ごろ日本語の勉強を始めようと思います。

 

[Toritoribe]

I think this is incorrect.

窶啖ﾅ椎ｽ窶啖窶愿ｺ窶堋ｲ窶堙ｫ窶愿ｺ窶怒ﾅ津ｪ窶堙娯?｢ﾃ冷?ｹﾂｭ窶堙ｰﾅｽn窶堙溪?堙ｦ窶堋､窶堙?ｽv窶堋｢窶堙懌?堋ｷﾂ。

Almost. 窶啖ﾅ椎ｽ窶啖窶愿ｺ窶堋ｲ窶堙ｫ窶堋ｩ窶堙ｧ窶愿ｺ窶怒ﾅ津ｪ窶堙娯?｢ﾃ冷?ｹﾂｭ窶堙ｰﾅｽn窶堙溪?堙ｦ窶堋､窶堙?ｽv窶堋｢窶堙懌?堋ｷ is more natural.

 

[Putrefaction]

Awesome, that makes sense. I was glad to see that I used the 窶堋ｲ窶堙ｫ properly, but I was debating on that and 窶堋ｮ窶堙ｧ窶堋｢. I have to read up on how that is used again. I think it was with hour ﾋ?ｪﾅｽﾅｾ窶堋ｮ窶堙ｧ窶堋｢ but I am not sure. Thank you again.

ﾂ債｡窶敕毒?ﾂｿﾅｽﾅ｡窶堙ｰ窶氾ｻﾂ習窶堋ｵ窶堙??堋ｩ窶堙ｧﾂ寝窶堙懌?堋ｷﾂ。ﾂ〜窶啖窶唹窶唹ﾅ?ﾂｿﾅｽﾅ｡窶堋ｩ窶堙ｧﾅｽn窶堙溪?堙懌?堋ｷﾂ。