How do you know... ON/KUN and beyond

[Putrefaction]

Hm. I seriously need some review. After I post the end of this chapter I'm going to review all the posts I said I need to review and come back and hopefully be a lot more knowing of the matters at hand.

ありがとうございます。

 

[Elizabeth]

ﾂ
You regret about that she got married while you loved her, right? 窶堙､窶堙昶?堋ｳ窶堙ｱ窶堋ｪﾂ好窶堋ｫ窶堋ｾ窶堙≫?堋ｽ窶堙ｱ窶堙??堋ｷ窶堋ｪﾂ、窶敕楪鞘?披?堙最停?ｹﾂ債･窶堋ｵ窶堙??堋｢窶堙懌?堋ｵ窶堋ｽ means "I loved Yumi, but she was already married (with someone else) at the time." If you want to say, for instance, "a guest had come to your home before you were ready for it, and s/he is still there", 窶藩??堙ЪU]窶堋ｵ窶堙懌?堙≫?堙??堋｢窶堙ｩ[/U] can be used for the case.
窶藩??堙??堋ｵ窶堙懌?堙≫?堙?s/he came against my will) + 窶堋｢窶堙ｩ(and is still here)

So, I'm wondering now what a big difference it would make to substitute ﾅ停?ｹﾂ債･ﾂ（窶堋ｵ窶堙?）窶堋ｵ窶堙懌?堙≫?堙 for ﾅ停?ｹﾂ債･窶堋ｵ窶堙?、 in a sentence like the one I've copied below. Does ﾅ停?ｹﾂ債･窶堋ｵ窶堙 in any way sound less harsh or lessen the feeling of adversity ? On second thought, probably entirely appropriate when used to convey the idea of an impersonal "fact" of his marriage being received for something not under the speaker's immediate control. Otherwise there is the strong potential for a misinterpretation of the actual message.

"窶堋ｻ窶堙ｱ窶堙遺?堋?窶堙ｩ窶愿ｺﾂ、窶敕楪鞘?披?堙坂?｢窶披?堙娯?｢ﾃ問?堙ｨﾂ、ﾂ静娯?堙姑畜ﾂーﾆ辰ﾆ稚ﾆ椎槌停?愴檀窶堋ｪﾅ停?ｹﾂ債･窶堋ｵ窶堙?、ﾂ債｡窶堙債、ﾅ?Cﾅ?O窶堙??｢ﾃｩ窶堙ｧ窶堋ｵ窶堙??堋｢窶堙ｩ窶堙??堋｢窶堋､ﾋ彙窶堙ｰﾅｽﾂｨ窶堙俄?堋ｵ窶堋ｽﾂ。ﾂ"


Context : This one comes from a passage in an essay as the wife is ticking off a litany of unrelenting complaints zeroing in on her bitter, lonely marriage to a bored disengaged husband in this "cage of a household" and suddenly wells up with a wave of longing for the idealized old days of 窶禿岩?昶?卍ー窶堋ｨ窶堋ｩ窶堋ｵ窶堋｢ with such and such a boyfriendﾂ。

 

[Putrefaction]

So in addition to the self-note, I may as well just read a few pages back as well as this post. I don't want to hemorrhage the things on you guys, since I have so much to review...



[FONT=&quot]写真８[/FONT]
１．[FONT=&quot]秋になると涼しくなります。[/FONT]
２．[FONT=&quot]電気を点けろと明るくなります。[/FONT]
３．[FONT=&quot]お酒を飲み過ぎると気分が悪くなります。[/FONT]
４．[FONT=&quot]日本語を話さないと日本語が上手になれません。なりません。[/FONT]
５．[FONT=&quot]家族から手紙が来ないと悲しくなります。[/FONT]
６．[FONT=&quot]一日中コンピュータを使うと目が疲れます。[/FONT]
７．[FONT=&quot]春になると花が咲きます。[/FONT]
I wonder if I can use the potential, or does it have to be narimasen?

[FONT=&quot]写真９[/FONT]
１．[FONT=&quot]寝てからと元気になります。（寝るの後？）[/FONT]
２．[FONT=&quot]人と話すと友達ができます。[/FONT]
３．[FONT=&quot]薬お飲むとよくになります。[/FONT]
４．[FONT=&quot]食べ過ぎると太ります。[/FONT]
５．[FONT=&quot]お風呂に入ると寝られます。[/FONT]
Now, I realized that the と form can be used to describe "whenever", as well as "cause and effect". I think some of the above where cause and effect, but they are hard to tell apart (the fat one was difficult for me, but either interpretation ends the same for me). The following are C&E, right?

[FONT=&quot]写真１０[/FONT]

１．[FONT=&quot]寒い時, 外に行くと気分が悪くなります。[/FONT]
２．[FONT=&quot]いい文法を使うとうれしくなります。[/FONT]
３．IPOD[FONT=&quot]が壊れると悲しくなります。[/FONT]
４．[FONT=&quot]日本語で先生と話すと元気になります。[/FONT]
５．[FONT=&quot]運動すると疲れます。[/FONT]
６．[FONT=&quot]新しい章を始めると緊張する。[/FONT]
７．[FONT=&quot]音楽を聴くと踊りたくなります。[/FONT]
I didn't understand the conjugation of #7. It has a verb, odoru, changed to the -tai: odoritai, then the whole verb changes to "becomes"? Is this how we put verbs in the "becomes" form? 緊張したくなります, to become nervous?

[FONT=&quot]写真１１[/FONT]
１．[FONT=&quot]紙がこないと悲しくなります。[/FONT]
２．[FONT=&quot]コンピュータを使うと目が痛くなります。[/FONT]
３．[FONT=&quot]食べ過ぎると病気になります。[/FONT]
４．[FONT=&quot]この薬を飲むと眠くなります。[/FONT]
５．[FONT=&quot]春になると花が咲きます。[/FONT]
I can definitely see where the cause/effect and "whenever" lines are criss-crossing, they can be described both ways...I took the last one as an example:

When it becomes summer, the flowers bloom.
Cause: It became summer. Effect: Flowers bloom.

This is a little easier, and different, then -てしまう solely because to me, the meanings are close.

[FONT=&quot]写真１２[/FONT]
１．[FONT=&quot]食べ過ぎるとおなかがすきます。[/FONT]
２．[FONT=&quot]「元気」の本を読むと日本語が上手になります。[/FONT]
３．[FONT=&quot]私の大好きなテレビを見ているとうれしくなります。[/FONT]
I skipped the bottom three as I should be right on these.

---

１．[FONT=&quot]ご飯を食べながらテレベを見ます。[/FONT]
I watch television as I eat.
２．[FONT=&quot]お酒を飲みながら勉強します。[/FONT]
I study while I drink.
３．What am I supposed to say about this…I'll pretend it was another sentence.
勉強しながら、何をしたい？
勉強しながら、音楽を聴きたいです。
I want to listen to music while I am studying.

４．[FONT=&quot]音楽を聴きながら、テレビで野球を見ます。[/FONT]
While I watch baseball on TV, I listen to music.
５．[FONT=&quot]宿題をしながら、考えます。[/FONT]
While I'm thinking, I'm doing homework.
In doing these I referred back to the picture I had drawn, and もうエリスベスさんが言った「-nagara is attached to the less important verb」ことを覚えました。(Probably got the sentence structure wrong, didn't I -> I already memorized what Elizabeth said, "-nagara is attached to the less important verb".

[FONT=&quot]写真１５[/FONT]
１．[FONT=&quot]忙しい時、宿題をしながら電車に乗ります。[/FONT]
２．[FONT=&quot]本を読みながら運転しないほうがいいです。[/FONT]
３．[FONT=&quot]野球を見ながら日本語を勉強するのが好きです。[/FONT]
４．[FONT=&quot]ひげをそりながらレポートを書けません。[/FONT]
The blue thing I may want to ask about later, we had a small discussion on this, it's all the way from Chapter 5!

---

[FONT=&quot]写真１６[/FONT]
１．[FONT=&quot]よめば[/FONT]
２．[FONT=&quot]くれば[/FONT]
３．[FONT=&quot]みれば[/FONT]
４．[FONT=&quot]なはせば[/FONT]
５．[FONT=&quot]すれば[/FONT]
６．[FONT=&quot]つかえば[/FONT]
７．[FONT=&quot]あそべば[/FONT]
８．[FONT=&quot]おきれば （[/FONT]I should have woke up?[FONT=&quot]）[/FONT]
９．[FONT=&quot]たべなければ[/FONT]
１０．[FONT=&quot] [/FONT][FONT=&quot]こなければ （[/FONT]I should not have come?[FONT=&quot]）[/FONT]
１１．[FONT=&quot] [/FONT][FONT=&quot]きかなければ （[/FONT]I should not have listened?[FONT=&quot]）[/FONT]
１２．[FONT=&quot] [/FONT][FONT=&quot]つかわなければ[/FONT] [FONT=&quot]（[/FONT]I should not have used?[FONT=&quot]）[/FONT]
１３．[FONT=&quot] [/FONT][FONT=&quot]しなければ （[/FONT]I should not have done?[FONT=&quot]）[/FONT]
The only reason I put this up is for the hiragana, and the meanings. Some of them I'm not 100% sure about, if they make sense or not.

[FONT=&quot]写真１７[/FONT]
１．[FONT=&quot]カメラを買えなければよかったです。[/FONT]
２．[FONT=&quot]電話すればよかったです。[/FONT]
３．[FONT=&quot]ほしかった服を買えばよかったです。[/FONT]
４．[FONT=&quot]この日本語のテープを聴けばよかったです。[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]写真１８[/FONT]
１．[FONT=&quot]遅く行かなければ良かったです。[/FONT]
２．[FONT=&quot]電話すればよかったです。[/FONT]
３．[FONT=&quot]友達のをかすればよかった。[/FONT]
４．[FONT=&quot]この専門を選ばなければ良かったです。[/FONT]
５．[FONT=&quot]先週ここに食べに行た時、このレストランの食べ物もおいしくない。。。また来なければ良かったです[/FONT][FONT=&quot]。[/FONT]
６．[FONT=&quot]ハンバーガーを三枚食べなければ良かったです。[/FONT]
７．[FONT=&quot]短い休みを取ればよかったです。[/FONT]
８．[FONT=&quot]飲み過ぎれば良かったです[/FONT]。

We already went over the blue one, so I'll review. I remember seeing it on the previous page.



As promised I will go over the past few pages and I will post comments or something on the ones I read and either understand, or don't understand. You guys have been very, very helpful. I owe you a lot, without it I'd be lost and very, very wrong... どうもありがとございます先生。

 

[Toritoribe]

So, I'm wondering now what a big difference it would make to substitute ﾅ停?ｹﾂ債･ﾂ（窶堋ｵ窶堙?）窶堋ｵ窶堙懌?堙≫?堙 for ﾅ停?ｹﾂ債･窶堋ｵ窶堙?、 in a sentence like the one I've copied below. Does ﾅ停?ｹﾂ債･窶堋ｵ窶堙 in any way sound less harsh or lessen the feeling of adversity ? On second thought, probably entirely appropriate when used to convey the idea of an impersonal "fact" of his marriage being received for something not under the speaker's immediate control. Otherwise there is the strong potential for a misinterpretation of the actual message.
"窶堋ｻ窶堙ｱ窶堙遺?堋?窶堙ｩ窶愿ｺﾂ、窶敕楪鞘?披?堙坂?｢窶披?堙娯?｢ﾃ問?堙ｨﾂ、ﾂ静娯?堙姑畜ﾂーﾆ辰ﾆ稚ﾆ椎槌停?愴檀窶堋ｪﾅ停?ｹﾂ債･窶堋ｵ窶堙?、ﾂ債｡窶堙債、ﾅ?Cﾅ?O窶堙??｢ﾃｩ窶堙ｧ窶堋ｵ窶堙??堋｢窶堙ｩ窶堙??堋｢窶堋､ﾋ彙窶堙ｰﾅｽﾂｨ窶堙俄?堋ｵ窶堋ｽﾂ。ﾂ"
Context : This one comes from a passage in an essay as the wife is ticking off a litany of unrelenting complaints zeroing in on her bitter, lonely marriage to a bored disengaged husband in this "cage of a household" and suddenly wells up with a wave of longing for the idealized old days of 窶禿岩?昶?卍ー窶堋ｨ窶堋ｩ窶堋ｵ窶堋｢ with such and such a boyfriendﾂ。

ﾅ停?ｹﾂ債･窶堋ｵ窶堙Ъ/U]ﾂ、ﾂ債｡窶堙債、ﾅ?Cﾅ?O窶堙??｢ﾃｩ窶堙ｧ窶堋ｵ窶堙ЪU]窶堋｢窶堙ｩ is a simple description of a fact, whereas ﾅ停?ｹﾂ債･窶堋ｵ窶堙??堋ｵ窶堙懌?堙≫?堙Ъ/U]ﾂ、ﾂ債｡窶堙債、ﾅ?Cﾅ?O窶堙??｢ﾃｩ窶堙ｧ窶堋ｵ窶堙ЪU]窶堋｢窶堙ｩ can express her regret about his marriage.

 

[Toritoribe]

ﾅｽﾃ環真窶啗

I wonder if I can use the potential, or does it have to be narimasen?

Yeah, you can use 窶堙遺?堙ｪ窶堙懌?堋ｹ窶堙ｱ.


ﾅｽﾃ環真窶唸
窶啀ﾂ．ﾂ寝窶堙ｩ窶堙?陳ｳ窶ｹC窶堙俄?堙遺?堙ｨ窶堙懌?堋ｷ窶堙ｦﾂ。
ﾂ〜窶堙 conditional form itself means "when do something/something happens, then~", so 窶堋ｩ窶堙ｧ isn't needed here.

窶售ﾂ．窶堋ｽ窶堋ｭ窶堋ｳ窶堙ｱﾂ食窶堙冷?堙ｩ窶堙??伉ｾ窶堙ｨ窶堙懌?堋ｷ窶堙ｦ/窶伉ｾ窶堙ｪ窶堙懌?堋ｷ窶堙ｦﾂ。
ﾂ食窶堙冷?ｰﾃ溪?堋ｬ窶堙ｩ has a negative connotation like as "to overeat/eat too much."

In these example sentences, the sentence final particle 窶堙ｦ makes them sound as an advice to the person A.


ﾅｽﾃ環真窶啀窶唹
窶啣ﾂ．ﾂ青ｳ窶堋ｵ窶堋｢窶｢ﾂｶ窶邸窶堙ｰﾅｽg窶堋､窶堙??堋､窶堙ｪ窶堋ｵ窶堋ｭ窶堙遺?堙ｨ窶堙懌?堋ｷﾂ。
ﾂ青ｳ窶堋ｵ窶堋｢: correct/proper

窶啖ﾂ．窶ｰﾂｹﾅ?y窶堙ｰ窶卍ｮ窶堋ｭ窶堙??肺窶堙ｨ窶堋ｽ窶堋ｭ窶堙遺?堙ｨ窶堙懌?堋ｷﾂ。
I didn't understand the conjugation of #7. It has a verb, odoru, changed to the -tai: odoritai, then the whole verb changes to "becomes"? Is this how we put verbs in the "becomes" form? 窶ｹﾃ吮?卍｣窶堋ｵ窶堋ｽ窶堋ｭ窶堙遺?堙ｨ窶堙懌?堋ｷ, to become nervous?

No. 窶肺窶堙ｨ窶堋ｽ窶堋ｭ窶堙遺?堙ｩ: I become to want to dance. = It makes me want to dance.

To express a wish when followed by the ending 窶堋ｽ窶堋｢ tai: ﾂ食窶堙冷?堋ｽ窶堋｢ tabetai: "I want to eat it", ﾂ行窶堋ｫ窶堋ｽ窶堋｢ ikitai: "I want to go". (The tai ending conjugates as an 窶堋｢ i adjective.)

Japanese verb conjugation - Wikipedia


ﾅｽﾃ環真窶啀窶啀
窶啀ﾂ．ﾅｽﾃｨﾅｽ窶?窶堋ｪ窶堋ｱ窶堙遺?堋｢窶堙??敕溪?堋ｵ窶堋ｭ窶堙遺?堙ｨ窶堙懌?堋ｷﾂ。

This is a little easier, and different, then -窶堙??堋ｵ窶堙懌?堋､ solely because to me, the meanings are close.

Close but different. ﾂ春窶堙俄?堙遺?堙ｩ窶堙??ｰﾃ披?堋ｪﾂ催ｧ窶堋ｫ窶堙懌?堋ｷ is a simple description of a fact/event, whereas ﾂ春窶堙俄?堙遺?堙ｩ窶堙??ｰﾃ披?堋ｪﾂ催ｧ窶堋｢窶堙??堋ｵ窶堙懌?堋｢窶堙懌?堋ｷ implies that you don't want flowers bloom.


ﾅｽﾃ環真窶啀窶啣

窶啀ﾂ．ﾂ食窶堙冷?ｰﾃ溪?堋ｬ窶堙ｩ窶堙??堋ｨ窶堙遺?堋ｩ窶堋ｪ窶堋ｷ窶堋ｫ窶堙懌?堋ｷﾂ。

窶堋ｨ窶堙遺?堋ｩ窶堋ｪ窶ｹﾃｳ[窶堋ｷ]窶堋ｫ窶堙懌?堋ｷ: to become hungry
"Whenever I overeat, I become hungry" doesn't make sense.;-)

窶啌ﾂ．窶佚･ﾂ好窶堋ｫ窶堙鞍弾ﾆ椎槌池窶堙ｰﾅ陳ｩ窶堙??堋｢窶堙ｩ窶堙??堋､窶堙ｪ窶堋ｵ窶堋ｭ窶堙遺?堙ｨ窶堙懌?堋ｷ
ﾅｽ窶樞?堙 isn't needed.

I already memorized what Elizabeth said, "-nagara is attached to the less important verb".

窶｢ﾃ冷?ｹﾂｭ窶堋ｵ窶堙遺?堋ｪ窶堙ｧﾂ、窶ｰﾂｹﾅ?y窶堙ｰ窶卍ｮ窶堋ｫ窶堋ｽ窶堋｢窶堙??堋ｷﾂ。
I want to listen to music while I am studying.

窶售ﾂ．窶ｰﾂｹﾅ?y窶堙ｰ窶卍ｮ窶堋ｫ窶堙遺?堋ｪ窶堙ｧﾂ、ﾆ弾ﾆ椎槌池窶堙??禿ｬ窶ｹ窶ｦ窶堙ｰﾅ陳ｩ窶堙懌?堋ｷﾂ。
While I watch baseball on TV, I listen to music.

窶啜ﾂ．ﾂ宿窶佚ｨ窶堙ｰ窶堋ｵ窶堙遺?堋ｪ窶堙ｧﾂ、ﾂ考窶堋ｦ窶堙懌?堋ｷﾂ。
While I'm thinking, I'm doing homework.

The main clause of the first sentence is 窶ｰﾂｹﾅ?y窶堙ｰ窶卍ｮ窶堋ｫ窶堋ｽ窶堋｢窶堙??堋ｷ = "I want to listen to music." "-nagara is attached to the less important verb", thus, you thought 窶｢ﾃ冷?ｹﾂｭ窶堋ｷ窶堙ｩ/窶ｰﾂｹﾅ?y窶堙ｰ窶卍ｮ窶堋ｭ/ﾂ宿窶佚ｨ窶堙ｰ窶堋ｷ窶堙ｩ is less important, don't you?;-)


ﾅｽﾃ環真窶啀窶啜

窶啀ﾂ．窶纏窶堋ｵ窶堋｢ﾅｽﾅｾﾂ、ﾂ宿窶佚ｨ窶堙ｰ窶堋ｵ窶堙遺?堋ｪ窶堙ｧ窶彭ﾅｽﾃ披?堙可湘ｦ窶堙ｨ窶堙懌?堋ｷﾂ。

This is not incorrect. But 窶彭ﾅｽﾃ披?堙可湘ｦ窶堙ｨ窶堙遺?堋ｪ窶堙ｧﾂ宿窶佚ｨ窶堙ｰ窶堋ｵ窶堙懌?堋ｷ; "I do my homework while (I'm) on the train" would be more common.

窶啌ﾂ．窶禿ｬ窶ｹ窶ｦ窶堙ｰﾅ陳ｩ窶堙遺?堋ｪ窶堙ｧ窶愿ｺ窶怒ﾅ津ｪ窶堙ｰ窶｢ﾃ冷?ｹﾂｭ窶堋ｷ窶堙ｩ窶堙娯?堋ｪﾂ好窶堋ｫ窶堙??堋ｷﾂ。

This 窶堙 is a nominalizer. The particle 窶堋ｪ can be used only with nouns, so you need to nominalize the clause 窶禿ｬ窶ｹ窶ｦ窶堙ｰﾅ陳ｩ窶堙遺?堋ｪ窶堙ｧ窶愿ｺ窶怒ﾅ津ｪ窶堙ｰ窶｢ﾃ冷?ｹﾂｭ窶堋ｷ窶堙ｩ.


ﾅｽﾃ環真窶啀窶啖
窶啀ﾂ．ﾆ谷ﾆ陳?停?ｰ窶堙ｰ窶敞端COLOR="Red"]窶堙ｭ[/COLOR]窶堙遺?堋ｯ窶堙ｪ窶堙寂?堙ｦ窶堋ｩ窶堙≫?堋ｽ窶堙??堋ｷﾂ。


ﾅｽﾃ環真窶啀窶啗
窶啌ﾂ．窶認窶傳窶堙娯?堙ｰ窶堋ｩ/ﾅｽﾃ麓COLOR="Red"]窶堙ｨ[/COLOR]窶堙ｪ窶堙寂?堙ｦ窶堋ｩ窶堙≫?堋ｽﾂ。
(This 窶堙 is a pronoun, not nominalizer.)

窶售ﾂ．窶堋ｱ窶堙個静ｪﾂ攻窶堙ｰ窶露窶堙寂?堙遺?堋ｯ窶堙ｪ窶堙寂?氾??堋ｩ窶堙≫?堋ｽ窶堙??堋ｷﾂ。
or
ﾂ〜(e.g. 窶禿ｲﾅ?w, ﾅ弛ﾂ催焦?w,,,,)窶堙ｰﾂ静ｪﾂ攻窶堋ｵ窶堙遺?堋ｯ窶堙ｪ窶堙寂?堙ｦ窶堋ｩ窶堙≫?堋ｽ窶堙??堋ｷﾂ。
ﾂ静ｪﾂ攻 would be appropriate for major.

窶啅ﾂ．ﾆ地ﾆ停?愴弛ﾂーﾆ狸ﾂー窶堙ｰﾅｽOﾅ津?/COLOR]ﾂ食窶堙冷?堙遺?堋ｯ窶堙ｪ窶堙寂?氾??堋ｩ窶堙≫?堋ｽ窶堙??堋ｷﾂ。

8. You can't help thinking about your ex-boyfriend/ex-girlfriend.
窶啗ﾂ．ﾋ?ｹ窶堙昶?ｰﾃ溪?堋ｬ窶堙ｪ窶堙寂?氾??堋ｩ窶堙≫?堋ｽ窶堙??堋ｷﾂ。

???

 

[Elizabeth]

結婚して、今は、海外で暮らしている is a simple description of a fact, whereas 結婚してしまって、今は、海外で暮らしている can express her regret about his marriage.

分かりました。どうもありがとう。

アメリカ人の読者にとっては、事実と人物の気持ちの区別がつかないと、ちょっと煮えきらないという響きがあるかもしれませんね。


主語なのか伝えた人か。。。誰が「結婚してしまっている」と思うか私もよく分からないよ。。。

 

[Elizabeth]

More on ながらand how it's used when it works that way.

音楽を聴きながら、学校へ歩くのが好き。
- Like to walk to school while listening to music. ??

Time-specific Actions - Tae Kim's Japanese grammar guide

 

[Elizabeth]

Also.... while not quite as acceptable as ながら, any pattern with the main verb in ている can be interchanged with 間(に) ??


勉強している 間(に) 、音楽を聴きたいです。
I want to listen to music while I am studying.

４．音楽を聴いている間(に) 、テレビで野球を見ます。
While I watch baseball on TV, I listen to music.

５．宿題をしている 間(に) 、 考えます。
While I'm doing homework, I'm thinking.

電車に乗っている間(に) 宿題をします

 

[Putrefaction]

写真８

Yeah, you can use なれません.

How weird, I asked my teacher previously to this and he said you really shouldn't...

写真９

４．たくさん食べると太りますよ/太れますよ。
食べ過ぎる has a negative connotation like as "to overeat/eat too much."

In these example sentences, the sentence final particle よ makes them sound as an advice to the person A.

I see, I will have to review this as well.

No. 踊りたくなる: I become to want to dance. = It makes me want to dance.

Japanese verb conjugation - Wikipedia

So much to review!

Close but different. 春になると花が咲きます is a simple description of a fact/event, whereas 春になると花が咲いてしまいます implies that you don't want flowers bloom.

Could it also mean that when it becomes spring, the flowers have completed growth?

写真１２

おなかが空[す]きます: to become hungry
"Whenever I overeat, I become hungry" doesn't make sense.;-)

I most likely meant to put, おなかが痛いです。すみません！

勉強しながら、音楽を聴きたいです。
I want to listen to music while I am studying.
勉強しながら、音楽を聴きたいです。
I want to listen to music while I am studying.


[FONT=&quot]音楽を聴きながら、テレビで野球を見ます。[/FONT]
While I watch baseball on TV, I listen to music.
音楽を聴きながら、テレビで野球を見ます。
While I watch baseball on TV, I listen to music.


[FONT=&quot]宿題をしながら、考えます。[/FONT]
While I'm thinking, I'm doing homework.
宿題をしながら、考えます。
While I'm thinking, I'm doing homework.

The main clause of the first sentence is 音楽を聴きたいです = "I want to listen to music." "-nagara is attached to the less important verb", thus, you thought 勉強する/音楽を聴く/宿題をする is less important, don't you?;-)

This is really bad! I thought I had -nagara down!

But, my friend came up with the perfect example.

Context: He got an 85, and was explaining how he got the grade. "I studied while eating.". To me the most important verb is studying, and he ate WHILE studying...but I'm not sure if that's the same in Japanese, which would be "while eating, I studied", which to me, implies that the main action was eating and you were "distracted" by eating.

So if I had to translate "I studied while eating",
食べながら勉強しました。
Would be the way I said it: Eating took a second spot towards studying.

So I think I am getting what you are saying, let me update in a new post later on. I just have to ask my teacher something. Thank you.

３．野球を見ながら日本語を勉強するのが好きです。

This の is a nominalizer. The particle が can be used only with nouns, so you need to nominalize the clause 野球を見ながら日本語を勉強する.

Oh I see, so it's just like that part where you say you like to do a verb, you put no ga and then the no changes it to a noun. Got it, I think! I'll review it anyways.

専攻 would be appropriate for major.

Hm. I'm used to 専門 but I'll look it up.

６．ハンバーガーを三個食べなければ良かったです。

I haven't gotten to counters so all I've seen is -mai.


Also, for that last one, I have no idea why I said that. I guess I meant to say, "I regret not drinking more"?


Thanks for all your help once again. I'd like to get down -nagara before I start reviewing but I may as well start a little early.

 

[undrentide]

Also.... while not quite as acceptable as 窶堙遺?堋ｪ窶堙ｧ, any pattern with the main verb in 窶堙??堋｢窶堙ｩ can be interchanged with ﾅ?ﾃ?窶堙? ??


窶｢ﾃ冷?ｹﾂｭ窶堋ｵ窶堙??堋｢窶堙ｩ ﾅ?ﾃ?窶堙? ﾂ、窶ｰﾂｹﾅ?y窶堙ｰ窶卍ｮ窶堋ｫ窶堋ｽ窶堋｢窶堙??堋ｷﾂ。
I want to listen to music while I am studying.

窶售ﾂ．窶ｰﾂｹﾅ?y窶堙ｰ窶卍ｮ窶堋｢窶堙??堋｢窶堙ｩﾅ?ﾃ?窶堙? ﾂ、ﾆ弾ﾆ椎槌池窶堙??禿ｬ窶ｹ窶ｦ窶堙ｰﾅ陳ｩ窶堙懌?堋ｷﾂ。
While I watch baseball on TV, I listen to music.

窶啜ﾂ．ﾂ宿窶佚ｨ窶堙ｰ窶堋ｵ窶堙??堋｢窶堙ｩ ﾅ?ﾃ?窶堙? ﾂ、 ﾂ考窶堋ｦ窶堙懌?堋ｷﾂ。
While I'm doing homework, I'm thinking.

窶彭ﾅｽﾃ披?堙可湘ｦ窶堙≫?堙??堋｢窶堙ｩﾅ?ﾃ?窶堙? ﾂ宿窶佚ｨ窶堙ｰ窶堋ｵ窶堙懌?堋ｷ

To me there's difference between ﾂ〜窶堙遺?堋ｪ窶堙ｧ and ﾂ〜窶堋｢窶堙ｩﾅ?ﾃ披?堙?
窶啻窶堋ｵ窶堙遺?堋ｪ窶堙ｧ窶啾窶堋ｷ窶堙ｩ : doing A and B at the same time.
窶啻窶堋ｵ窶堙??堋｢窶堙ｩﾅ?ﾃ披?堙俄?啾窶堋ｷ窶堙ｩ : do B sometime while doing A
e.g.
ﾂ食窶堙冷?堙遺?堋ｪ窶堙ｧ窶｢ﾃ冷?ｹﾂｭ窶堋ｷ窶堙ｩﾂ： study (while) eating (i.e. keep studying when eating)
ﾂ食窶堙冷?堙??堋｢窶堙ｩﾅ?ﾃ披?堙俄?｢ﾃ冷?ｹﾂｭ窶堋ｷ窶堙ｩﾂ： study at some point while eating (i.e. keep eating, and at some point study as well)

 

[undrentide]

ﾅｽﾃ環真窶啗
Yeah, you can use 窶堙遺?堙ｪ窶堙懌?堋ｹ窶堙ｱ.

How weird, I asked my teacher previously to this and he said you really shouldn't.

I second Toritoribe san, either 窶堙遺?堙ｨ窶堙懌?堋ｹ窶堙ｱ or 窶堙遺?堙ｪ窶堙懌?堋ｹ窶堙ｱ will do.

Hm. I'm used to ﾂ静ｪ窶禿･ but I'll look it up.

When it comes to study, it is ﾂ静ｪﾂ攻.
ﾂ静ｪ窶禿･ means "specialized" and is used in more general context.
e.g. 窶嗹窶嗹ﾂ静ｪ窶禿･窶弭: a shop specialized in XX

ﾆ地ﾆ停?愴弛ﾂーﾆ狸ﾂー窶堙ｰﾅｽOﾅ津?/QUOTE]
I haven't gotten to counters so all I've seen is -mai.

窶凪?｡ is used for something thin (like a sheet of paper) or flat (like a pancake).
In case of hamburger, it's a layer of buns and patty, so the patty inside a hamburger can be counted as ﾋ?ｪ窶凪?｡ﾂ、窶愿ｱ窶凪?｡... but as a whole hamburger, it is ﾋ?ｪﾅ津つ、窶愿ｱﾅ津?.. ;-)

 

[Putrefaction]

Hey, undrentide! Long time no see. Glad you stopped by!

窶啻窶堋ｵ窶堙遺?堋ｪ窶堙ｧ窶啾窶堋ｷ窶堙ｩ : doing A and B at the same time.
窶啻窶堋ｵ窶堙??堋｢窶堙ｩﾅ?ﾃ披?堙俄?啾窶堋ｷ窶堙ｩ : do B sometime while doing A

I will review your examples and hopefully make up my own and be correct.

I second Toritoribe san, either 窶堙遺?堙ｨ窶堙懌?堋ｹ窶堙ｱ or 窶堙遺?堙ｪ窶堙懌?堋ｹ窶堙ｱ will do.

I wonder why he said it was weird...I'll ask him tomorrow.

ﾂ静ｪ窶禿･ means "specialized" and is used in more general context.
e.g. 窶嗹窶嗹ﾂ静ｪ窶禿･窶弭: a shop specialized in XX

I see. I'll look up the reading to better acquaint myself.

so the patty inside a hamburger can be counted as ﾋ?ｪ窶凪?｡ﾂ、窶愿ｱ窶凪?｡... but as a whole hamburger, it is ﾋ?ｪﾅ津つ、窶愿ｱﾅ津?.. ;-)

I think/hope in this book there is a list of counters somewhere, basic as it may be, so I can get better at this.



By the way, I left rep for everyone, finally I was able to!

 

[Elizabeth]

To me there's difference between ～ながら and ～いる間に.
ＡしながらＢする : doing A and B at the same time.
Ａしている間にＢする : do B sometime while doing A
e.g.
食べながら勉強する： study (while) eating (i.e. keep studying when eating)
食べている間に勉強する： study at some point while eating (i.e. keep eating, and at some point study as well)

Yeah, well in that case I guess it would be minus に、 to give the implication the part before 間（X） has the same duration as the part after (Y) ？？

間に expresses Y is of shorter duration and takes place within the span of X.

食べながら勉強する ＝ 食べている間、勉強する
I eat while studying.
While I'm eating I am studying (throughout).

 

[Toritoribe]

ﾅｽﾃ･ﾅ津ｪ窶堙遺?堙娯?堋ｩ窶彖窶堋ｦ窶堋ｽﾂ人窶堋ｩﾂ。ﾂ。ﾂ。窶儂窶堋ｪﾂ「ﾅ停?ｹﾂ債･窶堋ｵ窶堙??堋ｵ窶堙懌?堙≫?堙??堋｢窶堙ｩﾂ」窶堙?ｽv窶堋､窶堋ｩﾅｽ窶樞?堙?窶堙ｦ窶堋ｭ窶｢ﾂｪ窶堋ｩ窶堙ｧ窶堙遺?堋｢窶堙ｦﾂ。ﾂ。ﾂ。

ﾂ催ｬﾅｽﾃ停?堋ｪ窶敕楪鞘?披?堙娯?板ｧﾂ湘ｪ窶堙俄?板ｧ窶堙≫?堙?鞘?倪?堋｢窶堙??堋｢窶堙ｩﾂ、窶堙?考窶堋ｦ窶堙ｩ窶堙娯?堋ｪﾋ?ｪ窶敕板坂?｡窶板昶?廬窶堙遺?ｰﾃｰﾅｽﾃ溪?堙??堋ｵ窶堙･窶堋､窶堙仰。

Could it also mean that when it becomes spring, the flowers have completed growth?

Mostly, no. Since there are some other expressions more commonly used for "completed" (e.g. ﾂ催ｧ窶堋ｫﾂ静倪?堙ｩ, ﾂ催ｧ窶堋ｫ窶伉ｵ窶堋､, ﾂ催ｧ窶堋ｫﾂ終窶堙ｭ窶堙ｩ,,,), ﾂ催ｧ窶堋｢窶堙??堋ｵ窶堙懌?堋､ is basically used in "do-not-want" context.

 

[Toritoribe]

Also.... while not quite as acceptable as 窶堙遺?堋ｪ窶堙ｧ, any pattern with the main verb in 窶堙??堋｢窶堙ｩ can be interchanged with ﾅ?ﾃ?窶堙? ??

In the structure A窶堙遺?堋ｪ窶堙ｧB, when A is the means of doing B, ﾅ?ﾃ can't be replaced by 窶堙遺?堋ｪ窶堙ｧ.

窶彭ﾋ彙窶堙??慊ｹﾂ鞘?｡窶堙ｰ窶｢ﾂｷ窶堋ｫ窶堙遺?堋ｪ窶堙ｧ窶敕楪鞘?披?堙娯?ｰﾃ??堙嫁津ｼ窶堋ｩ窶堙≫?堋ｽﾂ。
ﾂ×窶彭ﾋ彙窶堙??慊ｹﾂ鞘?｡窶堙ｰ窶｢ﾂｷ窶堋ｭﾅ?ﾃ?窶｢ﾂｷ窶堋｢窶堙??堋｢窶堙ｩﾅ?ﾃ板（窶堙可）ﾂ、窶敕楪鞘?披?堙娯?ｰﾃ??堙嫁津ｼ窶堋ｩ窶堙≫?堋ｽﾂ。

ﾆ辰ﾆ停?愴耽ﾂーﾆ値ﾆ鍛ﾆ暖窶堙??卍ｲ窶堙冷?堙遺?堋ｪ窶堙ｧﾋ彑窶｢ﾂｶ窶堙ｰﾂ鞘?倪?堋｢窶堋ｽﾂ。
ﾂ×ﾆ辰ﾆ停?愴耽ﾂーﾆ値ﾆ鍛ﾆ暖窶堙??卍ｲ窶堙冷?堙ｩﾅ?ﾃ?窶卍ｲ窶堙冷?堙??堋｢窶堙ｩﾅ?ﾃ板（窶堙可）ﾂ、ﾋ彑窶｢ﾂｶ窶堙ｰﾂ鞘?倪?堋｢窶堋ｽﾂ。

 

[Elizabeth]

In the structure AながらB, when A is the means of doing B, 間 can't be replaced by ながら.
電話で道順を聞きながら彼女の家に向かった。
×電話で道順を聞く間/聞いている間（に）、彼女の家に向かった。
インターネットで調べながら論文を書いた。
×インターネットで調べる間/調べている間（に）、論文を書いた。

OK, thanks for the confirmation.

I was going to suggest examples of shiri nagara (where I hear "nagara" the most) or "tozen nagara" but couldn't be ABSOLUTELY positive.

 

[Toritoribe]

In addition, the subjects of both clauses must be the same in A窶堙遺?堋ｪ窶堙ｧB.

窶敕楪鞘?披?堙哉坦ﾂーﾆ智ﾂー窶堙ｰﾋ?ｹ窶堙昶?堙遺?堋ｪ窶堙ｧ窶怒窶堙ｰ窶愿??堙ｱ窶堙??堋｢窶堋ｽﾂ。
ﾂ×窶敕楪鞘?披?堙?窶堋ｪﾆ坦ﾂーﾆ智ﾂー窶堙ｰﾋ?ｹ窶堙昶?堙遺?堋ｪ窶堙ｧﾂ、窶斗窶堙坂?怒窶堙ｰ窶愿??堙ｱ窶堙??堋｢窶堋ｽﾂ。
ﾂ≫?ｺ窶敕楪鞘?披?堋ｪﾆ坦ﾂーﾆ智ﾂー窶堙ｰﾋ?ｹ窶堙ｱ窶堙??堋｢窶堙ｩﾅ?ﾃ板、窶斗窶堙坂?怒窶堙ｰ窶愿??堙ｱ窶堙??堋｢窶堋ｽﾂ。

 

[Elizabeth]

In addition, the subjects of both clauses must be the same in A窶堙遺?堋ｪ窶堙ｧB.
窶敕楪鞘?披?堙哉坦ﾂーﾆ智ﾂー窶堙ｰﾋ?ｹ窶堙昶?堙遺?堋ｪ窶堙ｧ窶怒窶堙ｰ窶愿??堙ｱ窶堙??堋｢窶堋ｽﾂ。
ﾂ×窶敕楪鞘?披?堙?窶堋ｪﾆ坦ﾂーﾆ智ﾂー窶堙ｰﾋ?ｹ窶堙昶?堙遺?堋ｪ窶堙ｧﾂ、窶斗窶堙坂?怒窶堙ｰ窶愿??堙ｱ窶堙??堋｢窶堋ｽﾂ。
ﾂ≫?ｺ窶敕楪鞘?披?堋ｪﾆ坦ﾂーﾆ智ﾂー窶堙ｰﾋ?ｹ窶堙ｱ窶堙??堋｢窶堙ｩﾅ?ﾃ板、窶斗窶堙坂?怒窶堙ｰ窶愿??堙ｱ窶堙??堋｢窶堋ｽﾂ。

Same person simultaneously doing two different actions over the same period of time.

The behavior before 窶堙遺?堋ｪ窶堙ｧ must also also be an intentional verbing.

xﾂ静ｦﾂ青ｶ窶堙俄?ｰﾃｯ窶堋｢窶堙遺?堋ｪ窶堙ｧﾂ、窶｢ﾃ?窶堋ｫ窶堙懌?堋ｵ窶堋ｽﾂ。

 

[Elizabeth]

Yes, it's assimilation (the non-voiced consonant becomes voiced when surrounded by other voiced sounds -- vowels in this case). The Japanese have a special name for this particular type, though: ﾋ廣窶佚ｷ (rendaku), or "sequential voicing." You'll come across is a fair amount, like sushi becoming zushi in some compounds, 窶慊?ｽﾃｫ窶堙ｨ (katana + kari) becomes katanagari, etc. You don't have to worry about that for now, though, as it gets a bit complicated.

Just as one instance, a Japanese tutor made this really old tape with 窶堙懌?堋ｿ窶堙絶?堋ｯ窶堋ｵ which was apparently unique to this particular context. I've always read and heard it shifted as 窶堙懌?堋ｿ窶堙鯛?堋ｯ窶堋ｵﾂ。 Does 窶堙絶?堋ｯ窶堋ｵ without the 窶佚ｷ窶彑 mark become a pronounciation irregularity or more likely her effort to clarify and reinforce to me the origin of the compound (窶卍ｬﾂ、窶ｰﾃ篠、ﾂ湘≫?堋ｵﾂ）ﾂ？ﾂ？

 

[espen180]

I'm a little uncertain of how to pronounce the following

窶堋ｻ窶堙ｪ窶堙坂?佚･窶禿｢窶佚ｨ窶堋ｾﾂ。

I know that 窶禿｢窶佚ｨ=窶堙?窶堙ｱ窶堋ｾ窶堋｢, but which reading do I use for 窶佚･? On one hand it is grouped with 窶禿｢窶佚ｨ, so maybe it is read 窶堋ｽ窶堋｢ or 窶堋ｾ窶堋｢. On the other hand, it isn't really part of the word 窶禿｢窶佚ｨ and in that sence it stands alone (?), so maybe it is 窶堋ｨ窶堋ｨ? :?

 

[Toritoribe]

I'm a little uncertain of how to pronounce the following
窶堋ｻ窶堙ｪ窶堙坂?佚･窶禿｢窶佚ｨ窶堋ｾﾂ。
I know that 窶禿｢窶佚ｨ=窶堙?窶堙ｱ窶堋ｾ窶堋｢, but which reading do I use for 窶佚･? On one hand it is grouped with 窶禿｢窶佚ｨ, so maybe it is read 窶堋ｽ窶堋｢ or 窶堋ｾ窶堋｢. On the other hand, it isn't really part of the word 窶禿｢窶佚ｨ and in that sence it stands alone (?), so maybe it is 窶堋ｨ窶堋ｨ? :?

窶禿｢窶佚ｨﾂ?≫?堙?窶堙ｱ窶堋ｾ窶堋｢(on'yomi)
窶佚･窶禿｢窶佚ｨﾂ?≫?堋ｾ窶堋｢窶堙?窶堙ｱ窶堋ｾ窶堋｢

窶倪?ｺ窶堋ｬﾂ?≫?堋ｳ窶堙ｭ窶堋ｬ(kun'yomi)
窶佚･窶倪?ｺ窶堋ｬﾂ?≫?堋ｨ窶堋ｨ窶堋ｳ窶堙ｭ窶堋ｬ

Basically, you can get the correct reading like this. Of course there are some exceptions, though.
e.g.
ﾂ好窶堋ｫﾂ?≫?堋ｷ窶堋ｫ(kun'yomi)
窶佚･ﾂ好窶堋ｫﾂ?≫?堋ｾ窶堋｢窶堋ｷ窶堋ｫ

 

[espen180]

Thank you!

So the rule of thumb is that I use whichever reading (kun or on) used for the following kanji?

 

[Toritoribe]

Thank you!

So the rule of thumb is that I use whichever reading (kun or on) used for the following kanji?

Right. That's same to some other prefixes.
e.g.
ﾅ津､窶敕措窶堋ｲ窶堙坂?堙ｱ]
ﾅ津､窶｢ﾃЪ窶堋ｨ窶堋ｱ窶堙歉
(窶堋ｲ窶敕?窶堋ｨ窶｢ﾃ is more frequently used, though.)

 

[Putrefaction]

Hey guys. I just wanted to let you know that in between studying yes, I am actively reading this board and the responses and stuff, I already have a list in Microsoft Word of things that I have to go over and review. I also have some questions that I should be able to answer myself.

I hope I don't let you guys down. ☝I will most likely next post sometime near Christmas, unfortunately...

 

[Putrefaction]

I'm finally free from school! I'll post the updates when I get back from work, assuming I don't pass out.

---

Sorry, I did pass out. Here are images of what I did until a few days ago.

Then one day I bought my computer in:

How would I say, ﾂ"I already memorized thats he had said, ﾂ"difficult' ﾂ"?
[FONT=&quot]窶堋ｩ窶堙ｪ窶堋ｪﾂ「窶堋ｱ窶堙ｪ窶堙坂?堋ｷ窶堋ｲ窶堋ｭ窶愿ｯ窶堋ｵ窶堋｢窶堙??堋ｷﾂ」窶堙≫?堙ЪCOLOR=#D99594]ﾅ陳ｾ窶堙≫?堙??堋ｽ[/COLOR]ﾂ。[/FONT]- He said this is very difficult.
[FONT=&quot]窶堙?窶堋､窶堋ｩ窶堙ｪ窶堋ｪﾂ「窶堋ｱ窶堙ｪ窶堙坂?堋ｷ窶堋ｲ窶堋ｭ窶愿ｯ窶堋ｵ窶堋｢ﾂ」窶堙≫?堙?陳ｾ窶堙≫?堙ЪCOLOR=#F79646]ﾅ?o窶堋ｦ窶堙懌?堋ｵ窶堋ｽ[/COLOR]ﾂ？[/FONT]
---
[FONT=&quot]窶堙?窶堋､窶堋ｱ窶堙ｪ窶堋ｱ窶堙??堙ｰﾅ?o窶堋ｦ窶堋ｽﾂ。[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]窶堋ｩ窶堙ｪ窶堋ｪﾂ「窶愿ｯ窶堋ｵ窶堋｢ﾂ」窶堙≫?堙?陳ｾ窶堙≫?堋ｽ窶堋ｱ窶堙??堙ｰ窶堙?窶堋､ﾅ?o窶堋ｦ窶堙懌?堋ｵ窶堋ｽﾂ。[/FONT]
CD[FONT=&quot]窶堋ｪ窶愿ｱ窶凪?｡窶堋?窶堙ｩ窶怒ﾂ ﾂ?? [/FONT]A book that has 2 CD's.
Noun [FONT=&quot]窶堋ｪﾂ ﾂ≫?拏/FONT]COUNTER[FONT=&quot]窶堋?窶堙ｩ[/FONT]noun.
There are ten people in my neighborhood.
[FONT=&quot]窶ｹﾃ淞焦?窶堙可人窶堋ｪﾂ十ﾂ人窶堋｢窶堙懌?堋ｷﾂ。[/FONT]
When I went out and ate while drinking, my stomach ends up hurting because I ate too much.
[FONT=&quot]ﾅ?O窶堙可行窶堙≫?堙??ｹ窶堙昶?堙遺?堋ｪ窶堙ｧﾂ食窶堙冷?堋ｽﾅｽﾅｾﾂ食窶堙冷?ｰﾃ溪?堋ｬ窶堋ｽ窶堙娯?堙?、窶堋ｨ窶堙遺?堋ｩ窶堋ｪ窶凖俄?堋｢窶堙??堋ｷﾂ。[/FONT]


My goal is to finish Genki II, then review both Genki I and Genki II before college starts. In a month, while working 30 hours a week. I don't think it'll happen but I can try!

As for this topic, I read lots of it but then I forgot most of it during finals, so I'll have to re-read bulks of it.