How do you know... ON/KUN and beyond

[Toritoribe]

1. I originally wanted to say "when I am talking I become nervous". I also learned the new 窶堙 form and i wante to use it. It seemed very close to ﾅｽﾅｾ. Would any of my sentences worked with the 窶堙?？ﾋ彙窶堋ｵ窶堙??堋｢窶堙ｩ窶堙??ｹﾃ吮?卍｣(窶堙?)窶堋ｵ窶堙??堋ｵ窶堙懌?堋｢窶堙懌?堋ｷﾂ？

Yeah, ﾋ彙窶堋ｵ窶堙??堋｢窶堙ｩ窶堙??ｹﾃ吮?卍｣窶堋ｵ窶堙??堋ｵ窶堙懌?堋｢窶堙懌?堋ｷ works perfectly.

2. Dangerous territory because we had a two page discussion on it, but what's the difference between the "forgot" tenses in that sentence?

The form used here is 窶添窶堙ｪ窶堙??堋ｵ窶堙懌?堋､, not 窶添窶堙ｪ窶堙??堋｢窶堙ｩ/窶堋｢窶堋ｽ.;-) The structure "te-form + 窶堋ｵ窶堙懌?堋､" describes that the subject doesn't have control over the event, and often implies regret about what has happened.

窶敕楪鞘?披?堋ｪﾂ出窶堙?行窶堙≫?堙??堋ｵ窶堙懌?堙≫?堋ｽﾂ。(= She has gone out against the speaker's wish, and the speaker has regret about it.)

I thought of this dialogue a few seconds ago. I'm not 100% sure it'll work out, but:

窶怒窶堙ｰ窶佚昶?堋ｵ窶堙??堙?窶堋｢窶堋｢窶堙??堋ｷ窶堋ｩﾂ？ﾂ週窶凪?独坦ﾆ停?愴痴ﾆ停?ｦﾂーﾆ耽窶堙?ｽﾃ岩?堋ｵ窶堙?、ﾅ椎ｽ窶破窶愿ｺ窶堙俄?｢ﾃ披?堋ｵ窶堙懌?堋ｷ窶堙ｦﾂ。

窶怒窶堙ｰﾅｽﾃ倪?堙ｨ窶堙??堙?窶堋｢窶堋｢窶堙??堋ｷ窶堋ｩﾂ？
窶佚昶?堋ｷ: to lend
ﾅｽﾃ倪?堙ｨ窶堙ｩ: to borrow

ﾂ週窶凪?独坦ﾆ停?愴痴ﾆ停?ｦﾂーﾆ耽窶堙?ｽﾃ岩?堋ｵ窶堙?ﾆ坦ﾆ痴ﾂー窶堋ｵ窶堙?、ﾅ椎ｽ窶破窶愿ｺ窶堙俄?｢ﾃ披?堋ｵ窶堙懌?堋ｷ would be more appropriate. 窶｢ﾃ披?堋ｵ窶堙懌?堋ｷ窶堙ｦ could sound like an excuse.

 

[Elizabeth]

本を借りてもいいですか？
貸す: to lend
借りる: to borrow
週末コンピュータで写して/コピーして、月曜日に返します would be more appropriate. 返しますよ could sound like an excuse.

そして、もう少し丁寧な言い方だと、「本を貸してくれませんか・貰えませんかなど」になりますね。

 

[Elizabeth]

Hey guys. I haven't had much time to practice (and probably won't until the 20th or so) but I wrote this email. I just learned the と structure so I'm probably using it incorrectly. How did I do?

月曜日に会おうと思っています。その日、長い会話ができましょうか？ たくさん日本語を知っているけど緊張になっていると話している。話す時にたくさん忘れます。

ありがとう！

I'm definitely rusty!

少し日本語を知っているけど、（まだ）話していると(話しているときは。。。)緊張してしまいます。がいいと思います。

 

[Putrefaction]

Yeah, ﾋ彙窶堋ｵ窶堙??堋｢窶堙ｩ窶堙??ｹﾃ吮?卍｣窶堋ｵ窶堙??堋ｵ窶堙懌?堋｢窶堙懌?堋ｷ works perfectly.

Excellent, I'm glad I remember that part down.

The form used here is 窶添窶堙ｪ窶堙??堋ｵ窶堙懌?堋､, not 窶添窶堙ｪ窶堙??堋｢窶堙ｩ/窶堋｢窶堋ｽ.;-) The structure "te-form + 窶堋ｵ窶堙懌?堋､" describes that the subject doesn't have control over the event, and often implies regret about what has happened.

窶敕楪鞘?披?堋ｪﾂ出窶堙?行窶堙≫?堙??堋ｵ窶堙懌?堙≫?堋ｽﾂ。(= She has gone out against the speaker's wish, and the speaker has regret about it.)

I think I know why, is it because it's not happening right now? So if I was talking to someone and I was stumbling, could I use 窶添窶堙ｪ窶堙??堋｢窶堙ｩ? I will have review the -shimau form again, I remember there being two uses.

窶怒窶堙ｰﾅｽﾃ倪?堙ｨ窶堙??堙?窶堋｢窶堋｢窶堙??堋ｷ窶堋ｩﾂ？
窶佚昶?堋ｷ: to lend
ﾅｽﾃ倪?堙ｨ窶堙ｩ: to borrow

ﾂ週窶凪?独坦ﾆ停?愴痴ﾆ停?ｦﾂーﾆ耽窶堙?ｽﾃ岩?堋ｵ窶堙?ﾆ坦ﾆ痴ﾂー窶堋ｵ窶堙?、ﾅ椎ｽ窶破窶愿ｺ窶堙俄?｢ﾃ披?堋ｵ窶堙懌?堋ｷ would be more appropriate. 窶｢ﾃ披?堋ｵ窶堙懌?堋ｷ窶堙ｦ could sound like an excuse.

Hm, I have forgotten a lot. The 窶堙ｦ at the end makes that much of a difference!

Now how about if I wanted to say "Is it okay for me to borrow the book for a week?"

isshuukan ni hon o karite mo ii desu ka?

ﾂ渉ｭ窶堋ｵ窶愿ｺ窶怒ﾅ津ｪ窶堙ｰ窶冦窶堙≫?堙??堋｢窶堙ｩ窶堋ｯ窶堙?/QUOTE]

 

[Elizabeth]

Excellent, I'm glad I remember that part down.




I think I know why, is it because it's not happening right now? So if I was talking to someone and I was stumbling, could I use 忘れている? I will have review the -shimau form again, I remember there being two uses.

忘れている....implies "have forgotten" and still not being in the state of rememberance
忘れた(忘れてしまった。。。) "Forgot" before all of a sudden I remembered
忘れていた "Had forgotten" for a period of time before remembering after being reminded, finding a prompt, etc.

Now how about if I wanted to say "Is it okay for me to borrow the book for a week?"

isshuukan ni hon o karite mo ii desu ka?

There is no "ni" with isshukan. ;-)

 

[Putrefaction]

Thanks. Do we not use ni because it's a time relatively close to today?

I'll try to post an image I did of 17. It's the very end. I looked at chapter 18 again and it doesn't seem as hard. I asked my teacher to grade me so I'll post how bad I did on the excersises haha!

 

[Elizabeth]

Thanks. Do we not use ni because it's a time relatively close to today?

It's inconsistent because "kan" refers to a span of time (after one week) and "ni" expresses a point during or within that...if I had to guess. But you don't say "kyou ni" or "ashita ni" like there is no "in/on today/tomorrow" in English either...hmmm....

 

[Toritoribe]

Do we not use ni because it's a time relatively close to today?

It's from the characteristics of the verb ﾅｽﾃ倪?堙ｨ窶堙ｩ. Since ﾋ?ｪﾂ週ﾅ?ﾃ版ｽﾃ倪?堙ｨ窶堙ｩ expresses "a span", 窶堙 can't be used here, as Elizabeth-san wrote. ﾋ?ｪﾂ週ﾅ?ﾃ披?堙 can be used with some verbs to express something like "through one week(ﾋ?ｪﾂ週ﾅ?ﾃ披?堙俄?堙ｭ窶堋ｽ窶堙ｩ/窶ｹy窶堙?" or "change to one week(ﾋ?ｪﾂ週ﾅ?ﾃ披?堙俄?ｰ窶樞?堙寂?堋ｷ/窶堙遺?堙ｩ)", etc..

 

[Elizabeth]

It's from the characteristics of the verb 借りる. Since 一週間借りる expresses "a span", に can't be used here, as Elizabeth-san wrote. 一週間に can be used with some verbs to express something like "through one week(一週間にわたる/及ぶ)" or "change to one week(一週間に延ばす/なる)", etc..

Yeah, I mean 一週間にかけて？、一週間に三回 etc is also possible. The duration thing gets complicated. I just knew what he had in mind didn't go beyond the translation "("in") a week."

 

[Putrefaction]

Hey guys. I still haven't finished doing all of Chapter 17 but I'm really done with Chapter 18, so I'll post the rest of 17 image set by image set...won't have truly time until way after the 26th since I'm being bombarded with midterms and studying.



学校に来る前に、いつも勉強します。
就職する前に、ひげをぞらなくちゃいけません。
結婚する前に、薬剤師になりたいです。
昨日うちへ帰ってから、勉強してしまいました。
今日授業が終わってから、晩御飯を食べるつもりです。

テニスをしてから、一時間日本語勉強しました。
(lock the door?)てから、寝に行きました。
出かけて前に、いつも電気予報を見ます。

 

[Toritoribe]

ﾂ就ﾂ職窶堋ｷ窶堙ｩ窶楼窶堙可、窶堙絶?堋ｰ窶堙ｰ窶堋ｻ窶堙ｧ窶堙遺?堋ｭ窶堋ｿ窶堙｡窶堋｢窶堋ｯ窶堙懌?堋ｹ窶堙ｱﾂ。

ﾂ催ｰ窶愿ｺ窶堋､窶堋ｿ窶堙問?ｹA窶堙≫?堙??堋ｩ窶堙ｧﾂ、窶｢ﾃ冷?ｹﾂｭ窶堋ｵ窶堙懌?堋ｵ窶堋ｽﾂ。
窶｢ﾃ冷?ｹﾂｭ窶堋ｵ窶堙??堋ｵ窶堙懌?堋｢窶堙懌?堋ｵ窶堋ｽ implies that you have regret about studying yesterday(did it against your will, or like that).


ﾆ弾ﾆ男ﾆ湛窶堙ｰ窶堋ｵ窶堙??堋ｩ窶堙ｧﾂ、ﾋ?ｪﾅｽﾅｾﾅ?ﾃ披?愿ｺ窶怒ﾅ津ｪ窶堙ｰ窶｢ﾃ冷?ｹﾂｭ窶堋ｵ窶堙懌?堋ｵ窶堋ｽﾂ。/窶愿ｺ窶怒ﾅ津ｪ窶堙ｰﾋ?ｪﾅｽﾅｾﾅ?ﾃ披?｢ﾃ冷?ｹﾂｭ窶堋ｵ窶堙懌?堋ｵ窶堋ｽﾂ。

ﾅ陳ｮ窶堙ｰ窶堋ｩ窶堋ｯ窶堙??堋ｩ窶堙ｧﾂ、ﾂ寝窶堙懌?堋ｵ窶堋ｽﾂ。
ﾂ寝窶堙可行窶堋ｫ窶堙懌?堋ｵ窶堋ｽ sounds like "I went to bedroom to sleep."

ﾂ出窶堋ｩ窶堋ｯ窶堙ｩ窶楼窶堙可、窶堋｢窶堙や?堙?窶弖窶ｹC窶能窶｢ﾃｱ窶堙ｰﾅ陳ｩ窶堙懌?堋ｷﾂ。

 

[Putrefaction]

Ooh, a bunch of typos. Darn.

昨日うちへ帰ってから、勉強しました。
勉強してしまいました implies that you have regret about studying yesterday(did it against your will, or like that).

Actually, that's what I meant to put. I just wanted to see if I used it correctly and/or it'd be interpreted the way I wanted to. I actually did study against my will

鍵をかけてから、寝ました。
寝に行きました sounds like "I went to bedroom to sleep."

kagi o kakete kara, right? Hm, I guess I literally interpreted it as "went to go to sleep".

Thanks Tori!!

I have a small but weird question.

Let's say I wanted to say, "Can you see this image?" In my mind I want to use the -rareru potential form of miru (or mieru as Tori said it was more common / right?) but then there's a part of me that goes, can't that "can" form be used to say, do you have the ABILITY (eyes, a brain) to see it? Kind of like sarcasm. "Can you SEE the red dot?" vs "Can you see the red dot?"

kono shashin o miemasu ka?

 

[Elizabeth]

ﾂ
I have a small but weird question.

Let's say I wanted to say, "Can you see this image?" In my mind I want to use the -rareru potential form of miru (or mieru as Tori said it was more common / right?) but then there's a part of me that goes, can't that "can" form be used to say, do you have the ABILITY (eyes, a brain) to see it? Kind of like sarcasm. "Can you SEE the red dot?" vs "Can you see the red dot?"

kono shashin o miemasu ka?

I would suggest just not approaching sarcasm style Japanese (such that it is) right away. Try just changing basic word patterns to get the point across then go from there.


Can't you see this photo (right in front of you)?
窶堋ｱ窶堙固ｽﾃ環真窶堙最陳ｩ窶堋ｦ窶堙遺?堋｢窶堙個？

Can't you see that photo over there?
ﾂ（窶堋ｻﾂ・窶堋?窶堙個）ﾅｽﾃ環真窶堋ｪﾅ陳ｩ窶堋ｦ窶堙遺?堋｢窶堙個？

Can you see that photo way over there ?

ﾂ（窶堋ｻﾂ・窶堋?窶堙個）ﾅｽﾃ環真窶堋ｪﾅ陳ｩ窶堋ｦ窶堙ｩﾂ？ﾂ

 

[Putrefaction]

Right. I didn't want to be sarcastic, I wanted to genuinly ask if the person could see the picture. So I think my example works according you last one, right?

 

[Elizabeth]

Right. I didn't want to be sarcastic, I wanted to genuinly ask if the person could see the picture. So I think my example works according you last one, right?

Yeah, that would be my phrasing, actually. Mieru is a verb grammatically separate from "miru" meaning "to become visible" or "to be seen" among other things. Mirareru (in the potential form) describes more what doesn't simply "come into view," but that which takes effort and ability to see or watch. It is possible to see/watch.



「見える」と「見られる」

Later on the sleep/study dilemma.

 

[Toritoribe]

Actually, that's what I meant to put. I just wanted to see if I used it correctly and/or it'd be interpreted the way I wanted to. I actually did study against my will

Ah, I see. But if you wanted to say "I had to study against my will" or "I was made/forced to study," it should be 窶｢ﾃ冷?ｹﾂｭ窶堋ｳ窶堋ｹ窶堙ｧ窶堙ｪ窶堙懌?堋ｵ窶堋ｽ/窶堋ｳ窶堋ｹ窶堙ｧ窶堙ｪ窶堙??堋ｵ窶堙懌?堋｢窶堙懌?堋ｵ窶堋ｽ. 窶｢ﾃ冷?ｹﾂｭ窶堋ｵ窶堙??堋ｵ窶堙懌?堋｢窶堙懌?堋ｵ窶堋ｽ implies "I studied yesterday in spite of forbidding/not allowing (so I have regret about it)", as in ﾋ?｣ﾅｽﾃ停?堙嫁ｽ~窶堙溪?堙ｧ窶堙ｪ窶堙??堋｢窶堙ｩ窶堙娯?堙可、ﾂ催ｰ窶愿ｺ窶堋ｨﾅｽﾃｰ窶堙ｰﾋ?ｹ窶堙ｱ窶堙??堋ｵ窶堙懌?堋｢窶堙懌?堋ｵ窶堋ｽ; "I drank yesterday, although my doctor told me not to do that."

 

[Putrefaction]

Ah, I see. But if you wanted to say "I had to study against my will" or "I was made/forced to study," it should be 窶｢ﾃ冷?ｹﾂｭ窶堋ｳ窶堋ｹ窶堙ｧ窶堙ｪ窶堙懌?堋ｵ窶堋ｽ/窶堋ｳ窶堋ｹ窶堙ｧ窶堙ｪ窶堙??堋ｵ窶堙懌?堋｢窶堙懌?堋ｵ窶堋ｽ. 窶｢ﾃ冷?ｹﾂｭ窶堋ｵ窶堙??堋ｵ窶堙懌?堋｢窶堙懌?堋ｵ窶堋ｽ implies "I studied yesterday in spite of forbidding/not allowing (so I have regret about it)", as in ﾋ?｣ﾅｽﾃ停?堙嫁ｽ~窶堙溪?堙ｧ窶堙ｪ窶堙??堋｢窶堙ｩ窶堙娯?堙可、ﾂ催ｰ窶愿ｺ窶堋ｨﾅｽﾃｰ窶堙ｰﾋ?ｹ窶堙ｱ窶堙??堋ｵ窶堙懌?堋｢窶堙懌?堋ｵ窶堋ｽ; "I drank yesterday, although my doctor told me not to do that."

I have not come across this yet officially, but I remember someone mentioning that...actually, I think it was you, to be honest. I also never saw 窶堙??堋｢窶堙ｩ窶堙娯?堙? So much I didn't encounter yet....

 

[Toritoribe]

I have not come across this yet officially, but I remember someone mentioning that...actually, I think it was you, to be honest.

Yeah, exactly.

ﾂ喉窶堋ｪﾅ?窶ｰ窶堋｢窶堙??堋｢窶堋ｽ窶堙娯?堙?、窶堋?窶堙≫?堙??堋｢窶堋､ﾅ?ﾃ披?堙家畜ﾆ暖ﾆ停?ｹﾋ?ｪ窶怒窶｢ﾂｪ窶堙個絶?ｦ窶堙ｰﾋ?ｹ窶堙ｱ窶堙??堋ｵ窶堙懌?堋｢窶堙懌?堋ｵ窶堋ｽﾂ。
Since I was so thirsty, I drank a bottle of water in a moment.

In this sentence, ﾂ〜窶堙??堋ｵ窶堙懌?堙≫?堋ｽ simply expresses "perfect." There's probably no regret about it. The meaning depends on the context, as always.

 

[Elizabeth]

Yeah, exactly.
喉が渇いていたので、あっという間にボトル一本分の水を飲んでしまいました。
Since I was so thirsty, I drank a bottle of water in a moment.
In this sentence, ～てしまった simply expresses "perfect." There's probably no regret about it. The meaning depends on the context, as always.

In the use after a て verb that will be completely finished either with unusual speed or with dramatic/drastic/inconvenient results.

喉が渇いていたので、あっという間にボトル一本分の水を飲んでしまいました。

もう全部飲んでしまいましたか？ You've gone and drunk it all already ?
お母さんに言ってしまうよ！ I'm tellin' your mother !


So in a more straightforward usage.

昨日うちへ帰ってから、勉強してしました。 I ended up studying after getting home. It was a pain but I did it reluctantly. Just not at gunpoint or under overt threat of bodily harm.

 

[Toritoribe]

There are more common expressions for "ended up studying"; 勉強を済ませた, 済ませておいた, 終わらせた, etc.. Probably that's one of the reasons I interpreted 勉強してしまった as "studied in spite of forbidding/not allowing."
Anyway, That's a confusing expression.

 

[Elizabeth]

There are more common expressions for "ended up studying"; 勉強を済ませた, 済ませておいた, 終わらせた, etc.. Probably that's one of the reasons I interpreted 勉強してしまった as "studied in spite of forbidding/not allowing."
Anyway, That's a confusing expression.

And to top it all off, "Ended up" in English is an idiom which doesn't really mean "ended" or finished exactly, but, well, more like this : When an action is taken against the subject's original will, either though a process of circumstances or necessity.

*Does 勉強することになってしまった add up to anything in this context ? It's still strange, right ? Like the studying was out of putrefaction-san's control ?

"end up"は「最後には～になる羽目になる、結局～になる」という意味です。動詞を伴うときにはing形になります。
★ I ended up staying at her house last night.
「昨晩彼女の家に泊まることになってしまった。」
★ He ended up paying the bill.
「彼が支払いをする羽目になった。」

http://search.compasscompass.com/english/power_of_english/idiom_slang0808.asp?area=

 

[Toritoribe]

窶堙遺?堙ｩ窶堙吮?堙?〜ﾂ。
So I had to use "finished/completed my home work" or something like that.

 

[Elizabeth]

寝に行きました sounds like "I went to bedroom to sleep."

鍵をかけてから(鍵がかかっていてから)、すぐに寝てしまいました。XD (or ベッドに入って)寝入りました。？？

"Went to go to sleep" is what you're looking for ? I suppose is more like the above as trans. directly : "Entered the bed and fell asleep."

Because 寝る is roughly "go to bed" but can imply lying down restful, sick, idle, etc. so alone is not necessary to any of these particular states.

 

[Toritoribe]

ﾅ陳ｮ窶堙ｰ窶堋ｩ窶堋ｯ窶堙??堋ｩ窶堙ｧ(ﾅ陳ｮ窶堋ｪ窶堋ｩ窶堋ｩ窶堙≫?堙??堋｢窶堙??堋ｩ窶堙ｧ)ﾂ、窶堋ｷ窶堋ｮ窶堙可寝窶堙??堋ｵ窶堙懌?堋｢窶堙懌?堋ｵ窶堋ｽﾂ。XD (or ﾆ遅ﾆ鍛ﾆ檀窶堙俄?愿ｼ窶堙≫?堙?ﾂ寝窶愿ｼ窶堙ｨ窶堙懌?堋ｵ窶堋ｽﾂ。ﾂ？ﾂ？

"Went to go to sleep" is what you're looking for ? I suppose is more like the above as trans. directly : "Entered the bed and fell asleep."

Because ﾂ寝窶堙ｩ is roughly "go to bed" but can imply lying down restful, sick, idle, etc. so alone is not necessary to any of these particular states.

No. I said that ﾂ寝窶堙可行窶堋ｫ窶堙懌?堋ｵ窶堋ｽ implies "to go to somewhere to sleep" or ﾂ寝窶堙ｩ窶堋ｽ窶堙溪?堙俄?堙??堋ｱ窶堋ｩ窶堙鳴行窶堋ｫ窶堙懌?堋ｵ窶堋ｽ, not simply means "to go to bed". And the place would be mostly bedroom, I think.;-)

 

[Elizabeth]

No. I said that ﾂ寝窶堙可行窶堋ｫ窶堙懌?堋ｵ窶堋ｽ implies "to go to somewhere to sleep" or ﾂ寝窶堙ｩ窶堋ｽ窶堙溪?堙俄?堙??堋ｱ窶堋ｩ窶堙鳴行窶堋ｫ窶堙懌?堋ｵ窶堋ｽ, not simply means "to go to bed". And the place would be mostly bedroom, I think.;-)

I think I was tired when I wrote it, too. But I meant the original English translation, "went to go to sleep" as expanded to "went to bed and fell asleep." could be :

窶堙??堋ｩ窶堙ｧﾂ。ﾂ。ﾂ。ﾂ（ﾆ遅ﾆ鍛ﾆ檀窶堙俄?愿ｼ窶堙≫?堙?ﾂ寝窶愿ｼ窶堙ｨ窶堙懌?堋ｵ窶堋ｽﾂ。And just fell asleep is 窶堋ｷ窶堋ｮ窶堙可寝窶堙??堋ｵ 窶堙懌?堋｢窶堙懌?堋ｵ窶堋ｽﾂ。ﾂ？ﾂ？ﾂ

ﾂ寝窶堙懌?堋ｵ窶堋ｽﾂ。= Went to bed. OR I slept.