How do you know... ON/KUN and beyond

[Toritoribe]

Hmm... Damn! I wanted to say that I was currently in the motion, as in if you asked me in the train. tokoro = place, let me ask you, if I just said kaerimasu would it have been ok?

帰ります has a nuance of "I will go home," a sense of future tense or the speaker's intention. ところ is the nominalizer not for a "place" but for a "scene/moment."

I would say 友達に会いに/会うためにうちに帰るところです for "I'm returning home to meet with my friend."

 

[Putrefaction]

Pfft...I was way off again, haha. I guess I didn't get it down as well as I thought.

 

[Elizabeth]

Pfft...I was way off again, haha. I guess I didn't get it down as well as I thought.

How clear do you need to be ? "Kaeru tokoro" can also mean about ready to go home. Use Kaeru tochuu.

 

[Toritoribe]

Pfft...I was way off again, haha. I guess I didn't get it down as well as I thought.

帰る is a change-of-state verb, so 帰っています does not basically express the ongoing action but does "the current state," as Elizabeth-san explained. You can use ～ています to express an ongoing action for action/movement verbs.
e.g.
今テレビを見ています。

～ている form is definitely tough to grasp.

"Kaeru tokoro" can also mean about ready to go home. Use Kaeru tochuu.

Generally, yes. For instance, if you're in the office and say 帰るところ, it would mean これから/ちょうど今帰るところ. But in the situation Putrefaction-san stated, "I wanted to say that I was currently in the motion, as in if you asked me in the train," the expression 帰るところ would be more common than 帰る途中.;-)

Putrefactionさん、こんにちは。どこかにお出かけですか？
いえ、うちに帰るところです。

 

[Elizabeth]

帰る is a change-of-state verb, so 帰っています does not basically express the ongoing action but does "the current state," as Elizabeth-san explained. You can use ～ています to express an ongoing action for action/movement verbs.
e.g.
今テレビを見ています。
～ている form is definitely tough to grasp.
Generally, yes. For instance, if you're in the office and say 帰るところ, it would mean これから/ちょうど今帰るところ. But in the situation Putrefaction-san stated, "I wanted to say that I was currently in the motion, as in if you asked me in the train," the expression 帰るところ would be more common than 帰る途中.;-)
Putrefactionさん、こんにちは。どこかにお出かけですか？
いえ、うちに帰るところです。

OK, must have zoned out over the scene of this conversation. Let me set it up again.

電車に乗っている時に、電話がかかってきたときは、多分、「帰る途中、帰っているところ」でいいでしょうね。この表現は意思を表すことができないから。。。

 

[Putrefaction]

How about: Yakkyoku ni kusuri o kai ni ikimasu.

How clear do you need to be ? "Kaeru tokoro" can also mean about ready to go home. Use Kaeru tochuu.

I guess I am unclear on how kaette is used, I guess.

And hell, while I'm on a failing path:

Putrefaction wa yakkyoku ni kusuri o kai ni iku to omoimasu.

Also かかって doesn't this mean like person in charge? KEI/kaka.ru? eh...

 

[Elizabeth]

How about: Yakkyoku ni kusuri o kai ni ikimasu.



I guess I am unclear on how kaette is used, I guess.

And hell, while I'm on a failing path:

Putrefaction wa yakkyoku ni kusuri o kai ni iku to omoimasu.

The first, just for fun, what is YOUR translation(s)??

Second one, the actor is a third party talking about Putrefaction's known or expected trip to the pharmacy, right ?? In that case, it looks good.

 

[Putrefaction]

My translation is: I am going to the pharmacy to buy medicine.

Second one: I think putrefaction is going to the...

And acutally if you woulndt mind, please give me a sentnece with kaette imasu?

 

[Elizabeth]

My translation is: I am going to the pharmacy to buy medicine.

You haven't left yet. That makes sense and it looks clean.

And acutally if you woulndt mind, please give me a sentnece with kaette imasu?

１２月２９日から１月３日の夜まで、故郷に帰っているので
家には誰もいません。電話もメールも出られません。


Because I will be returning to my native home for the holidays no one will be here. Don't bother to call or write.

 

[Putrefaction]

I thank you for your input Elizabeth! To make a general note please know that I am extremely confused with everything until miraculously I understand and then have little to no problems with it.

The only thing I'm having problems with is now you can apparently say "... ni ikimasen to omoimasu".

 

[Elizabeth]

I thank you for your input Elizabeth! To make a general note please know that I am extremely confused with everything until miraculously I understand and then have little to no problems with it.

The only thing I'm having problems with is now you can apparently say "... ni ikimasen to omoimasu".

ni ikanai to omoimasu....

 

[Putrefaction]

ikinai! That makes so much more sense! In genki at least they didnt do that they used suki ja nai, though now that i correlate it it makes sense. thanks!

I'll put together many more questions

well let me see if i can get one -nai right.

Elizabeth san wa atamagaii to omoimasu. (omotte?)(demo) Putrefaction san wa atamagayokunai to shirimasu (or omoimasu, I felt like mixing it up).

"I think Elizabeth is smart, but (I know)I think Putrefaction is dumb."
1) Basically I wanted to make it one continous thought so I think omotte will work but I sincerely doubt it.
2) I'm not sure how to go from smart to Putrefaction in the same sentence if it's not to omoimasu.

Am I grasping outside my boundaries again?

 

[Toritoribe]

ikanai;-)

Elizabeth san wa atamagaii to omoimasu. (omotte?)(demo) Putrefaction san wa atamagayokunai to shirimasu (or omoimasu, I felt like mixing it up).

"I think Elizabeth is smart, but (I know)I think Putrefaction is dumb."
1) Basically I wanted to make it one continous thought so I think omotte will work but I sincerely doubt it.

思う is more commonly used. When you use 思っている, you need to make clear who the subject is to avoid to be misunderstood. (e.g. 僕はElizabethさんは頭がいいと思っています。) Elizabethさんは頭がいいと思っています could be interpreted as "Elizabeth considers herself smart."

On the other hand, when you use 知る, it should be 知っています. Again, te-form is tough to grasp. Do it gradually.;-)

2) I'm not sure how to go from smart to Putrefaction in the same sentence if it's not to omoimasu.

You can use the adversative conjunction けれど/けど.

Elizabethさんは頭がいいけれど/けど、Toritoribeさんは頭がよくない/賢くないと思います。

けど sounds more colloquial.

 

[Putrefaction]

1) I get shitte imasu, I was thinking that since omoimasu is used it can also be shirimasu. Why is it itte imasu instead of iimasu then?

wait you used omotte imasu. i never saw that either...

2) Whoa. never seen that before.

 

[Ashikaga]

1) I get shitte imasu, I was thinking that since omoimasu is used it can also be shirimasu. Why is it itte imasu instead of iimasu then?

Shiru is an "action" verb. It does not mean "to be in the know" or "be in possession of knowledge", but "to get to know" or "to gain knowledge". So, to express something like "I know the words to this song.", you use Shitteiru instead of Shiru ("Kono uta no kashi o shitteimasu"), whereas, when you want to say something like "I want to get to know you better", you say "Anata wo motto yoku shiritai desu".

 

[Putrefaction]

Oh...most of that flew over my head...and I still don't get it.
Okay so shiru is an action verb. why cant i say omotte imasu instead of omoimasu?
it seems that with every new thing i learn i get dumber :\

在米国日本国大使館
zai beikoku nihonkoku daishikan?

did i at least get the reading right
and what if i wanted to say my friend said he had a test yesterday: watashi no tomodachi wa shiken ga arimashita to itte imashita

not seeing how the circled ones can't be applied to one hour.

i went for an hour, i went out for an hour, i rode the bus for an hour, i borrowed for an hour...

 

[undrentide]

在米国日本国大使館
zai beikoku nihonkoku daishikan?

惜しい！You almost got it right.
在米国日本国大使館
zai beikoku nihonkoku taishikan

what if i wanted to say my friend said he had a test yesterday:
watashi no tomodachi wa shiken ga arimashita to itte imashita

This one also just one small thing...
watashi no tomodachi wa shiken ga atta to itte imashita
Polite form is used only at the end of the sentence.
But you did it quite well.

 

[Putrefaction]

aru -> te form -> past tense, i think?

also thanks.

 

[undrentide]

not seeing how the circled ones can't be applied to one hour.

行く
出かける
乗る
借りる

As ASHIKAGA san explained, these are "one-time action" which changes the status before and after.
So, unlike the verb such as 走る (motion), you cannot continue the action.

i went for an hour, i went out for an hour, i rode the bus for an hour, i borrowed for an hour...

What you regard as "continueing" is actually the state you're in.
You cannot continue "borrow" action - let's take an example of borrowing money. Before the action you are not in debt, after this action, you are in debt; you cannot continue the borrowing action.
What you mentioned as examples are actually "being in the state".
You borrow something, then you'll be in the state until you return it to the original owner.

Same goes with 出かける.
Before you go out, you're at home.
Once you're out, you're not at home.
There's nothing between these two states.
What you can be is in a state that "you are out, not at home".

 

[Putrefaction]

Toritoribe was right, I need to take this real real f'n slow...thanks again undrentide! I will re-re-read those when I come home at 11. I can see what you mean, it's a lot different than english. can i ask you what then is obo.eru a group 3 (remember, instaneous)? You have went from a state of not knowing to a state of knowing. In addition, would wakarimasu be instaneous as well? And what about sanpo suru, walking I don't think is instaneous but it can last for a long time...

...hmm...anata no "post" o yonde, demo chotto wakarimasu. ?

Now I have another question. Let's say I wanted to say, I'm taking the train to school. You are asking me this in the morning.

Now, I'm right in assuming that I can't use

And I just re-read that you have to use the -te form and combine the two...

You: "How are you going to school?"
Me: densha ni notte, gakko ni iku.

Now I ask you if you "why are you going to school?" I think I can use the image's example...let's say, to talk with my economics professor (which I really have to do)

You: Doshite gakko ni iku?
Me: Gakko ni keezai no sensei to hanashi ni iku.

And if you knew I was going to school but later in the day, and wanted to ask why are you going early, is it haya(i) or haya(ku)? I know one modifies nouns and the other adverbs, I think it is adverb this time...

You: Doshite gakko ni hayaku iku?
Me: Gakko ni keezai no sensei to hanashi ni hayaku iku kara.


I realize I should have put ikimasu but I wanted to see if you can use iku as between friends.
I assume I am wrong in most of these, and I feel bad because every time you type out a thoughtful response I have little to no time to fully comprehend... but I promise (約? I'd think that promise was a verb...), I will re-read everything from 10 - new posts on Weds/Thurs.

 

[Elizabeth]

Toritoribe was right, I need to take this real real f'n slow...thanks again undrentide! I will re-re-read those when I come home at 11. I can see what you mean, it's a lot different than english. can i ask you what then is obo.eru a group 3 (remember, instaneous)? You have went from a state of not knowing to a state of knowing. In addition, would wakarimasu be instaneous as well? And what about sanpo suru, walking I don't think is instaneous but it can last for a long time...

起きる、行く、来る、帰る、出かける、出る、結婚する、離婚する、借りる、座る、乗る、知る、死ぬ、壊れる、入る、閉じる、閉まる、咲く、開く、散る 、着える、倒れる、立つ、落ちる、付く、届く、触れる、着く、取れる、似る、太る、痩せる、始まる、忘れる、降りる、連れる、着る、もってくる、もって行く、終わる、はく、疲れる、できる、覚える、乾く、空く、なる、駐車する、直る、載れる、敗れる、晴れる、曇る、返る、決める、残る、かかる、こむ、消す。。。。I just realized what a huge mess these so called "punctual" verbs are making me as well, there is so little correspondence with Englsh. (Add to this most verbs of emotion =
腹を立ててる、恐れる、信じる。。。、かける、閉める、開ける 読む、飲む fr Group 2 as context requires, plus a whole ton of others）


Some are, well, more or less "instantaneous" (瞬間動詞) and others, like getting fat (太る） or thin (痩せる), increasing (増える), decreasing (減る)、going up (上がる、上る）, down (降りる)、across (わたる） etc obviously progress through a period of becoming to achieve the final effect （第四種の動詞）。 The ones in which change doesn't occur instantly can take either a resultative or continuative interpretation depending on the context.

Still other verbs that can be stative ? わかる、できる、ちがう。。。are kind of like different meanings in their ている form so seriously don't overly think those for now...


But basically what you're looking for in Group 3 is any change in the actor's state as a result of the action that occurs at the beginning of the process. It is a grammatical concept that can encompass these three categories of transformation (the reality is more interesting in terms of actor and tense, etc.), but for now... at least these :


A transition between states (Shitte iru = not realize to realize ; Kowarete iru = Not broken to broken ; Shinde iru = Alive to dead, etc), '

The start of an motion from a static state (Tatte iru = Sitting down to standing up ; Ochite iru = To fall etc)

Arrival or completion (Todoite iru = Not at terminal point to landing ; Itte iru = En route to at destination, etc)


So to answer your question, 知る (to know or realize) is thus momentary (shunkan doshi) because it expresses the resulting state of fact/present condition that something or someone is recognized.


...hmm...anata no "post" o yonde, demo chotto wakarimasu. ? (You're wondering if you'll understand Undrentide-san's answer ?)

 

[Elizabeth]

Shiru is an "action" verb. It does not mean "to be in the know" or "be in possession of knowledge", but "to get to know" or "to gain knowledge". So, to express something like "I know the words to this song.", you use Shitteiru instead of Shiru ("Kono uta no kashi o shitteimasu"), whereas, when you want to say something like "I want to get to know you better", you say "Anata wo motto yoku shiritai desu".

In this way it's like 持つ、住む、 XXX company に勤めている that you may know so far as more likely (or only) to be found in the te iru form than in the present form.

 

[Elizabeth]

Toritoribe was right, I need to take this real real f'n slow...thanks again undrentide! I will re-re-read those when I come home at 11. I can see what you mean, it's a lot different than english. can i ask you what then is obo.eru a group 3 (remember, instaneous)? You have went from a state of not knowing to a state of knowing. In addition, would wakarimasu be instaneous as well? And what about sanpo suru, walking I don't think is instaneous but it can last for a long time...

One way to identify a verb like Sanpo suru as continuous is by an action that can be continued indefinitely, hence not something that occured one time and the resulting state remained. Most verbs that are intransitive with transitive partners are punctual. The list I cobbled together above contains the most important ones, even if it is highly flawed otherwise. ☝

One exception would be resultative where there the reader is free to infer a clear goal in the action ending in a conclusion state. For instance, Putrefaction san has walked all over the city. How it can be disambiguated from "is walking" I suppose gets back to how well you control the further context.

Putrefaction さんはこの町中を散歩している。

 

[aardwolf]

Im not sure if this is what you guys were talking about (sorry, ive been away a while), but here goes:

What are the japanese names of all these verbs whose dictionary forms have more of a continual meaning (not sure if im making sense...)

ie yomu vs omou

yomu means "will read"
omou doesnt mean "will think"? right?


please be nice!

 

[undrentide]

Im not sure if this is what you guys were talking about (sorry, ive been away a while), but here goes:

What are the japanese names of all these verbs whose dictionary forms have more of a continual meaning (not sure if im making sense...)

ie yomu vs omou

yomu means "will read"
omou doesnt mean "will think"? right?

yomu means "to read"
omou "to think"

Both are dictionary forms.
Whether it means the present or future in a sentence depends on the context.
You have to judge from the meaning of each verb to judge whether it is a one-time action or something you can continue, it has nothing to do with the future tense...