Hiragana, Kana, and Kanji.

[Mikawa Ossan]

Eh...I guess I still don't understand how learning a whole other alphabet is going to make it any easier for me to understand how to pronounce Japanese.

It won't. But it WILL help you to read and write it. Only learning one or even two is like someone learning English but not bothering to learn capital letters.

But I guess you guys would be the experts...they had books at Barnes and Noble on how to write Hiragana and Katakana (both in one book actually...I think they had more on just one of them also), but I went with how to speak it.

Speaking is fine, but if you are illiterate, your options are quickly limited.

So, question. Since I'm not even in a classroom (I may be in one next year however), this is just purely individual study. I can still do the same course I'm doing at the moment right? I'll never try and communicate with Romaji, but it's probably only there just for making pronunciations easier for people familiar with the roman alphabet. I would be alright to study the other course I'm on right now and learning how to write it in a separate book right?

This is actually how I learned Japanese in college. It was the way the class was taught, and I never much liked it.

However, to be honest, it does work. You can learn to speak Japanese solely through romaji.

But it will hurt you when and if you ever do try to learn to read and especially write. In a society where something like 98% of the population is literate, I can not stress hard enough how important reading and writing skills are in this country!

 

[Elizabeth]

Eh...I guess I still don't understand how learning a whole other alphabet is going to make it any easier for me to understand how to pronounce Japanese. But I guess you guys would be the experts...they had books at Barnes and Noble on how to write Hiragana and Katakana (both in one book actually...I think they had more on just one of them also), but I went with how to speak it.

How are you planning on learning to speak it ? By self-study and listening to tapes at home ?

Romaji is an impoverished alphabet for Japanese that often leaves out letters and parts of sounds (parts of the syllable so to speak) that are in hiragana.
There are also different ways of writing romaji, some of which 'distort' English to make it easier for Japanese speakers to relate to and some of which distort Japanese to make it 'more natural' for Westerners.

If you plan on continuing your studies past an introductory course then virtually all the texts worth using are going to be in Japanese.


If your primary goal is to learn correct speech, then I agree with Buntaro-san. You can continue listening of course but start learning kana at the same time.

 

[Chaotic]

Ok it was mentioned that I should cease learning the course that has Romaji in it. But I can't just simply let that go to waste, as I just bought it from Barnes and Noble. I did however save the receipt, but I don't think they'll just let me take it back for seemingly no reason.

I want to read AND write all the languages I learn in life, especially Japanese. I wanted to be able to speak it fluently though first, but I guess it doesn't totally matter with Japanese. Like I said, I don't want to simply throw away this other course. It's a good book so far and it's been fairly straight forward in it's teachings. It offers no "learn to write" course though...strictly speech.

Is it that big a deal that I absolutely stay away from Romaji? Why did they even create it then if it's so abominable?

 

[Mikawa Ossan]

Here is the book that my college used in teaching Japanese.
Amazon product ASIN 0300038348
If you look inside the book, notice how the Japanese is purely written in romaji. The reason for this is that the author of this book, Eleanor Jorden believed that reading and listening are instrinsically linked together, as reading and writing are, respectively. However, since the link between speaking/listening and reading/writing are much more tenuous, it is favorable to the student to separate these fields when learning Japanese. The theory goes that by using romaji, one can learn to speak and listen to Japanese at an exponentially faster rate from the beginning than if one were forced to learn to read Japanese first.

Although I do believe that Jorden is correct in her assertion that one can learn to speak and listen to Japanese independent from reading and writing, and doing so creates an environment where the beginning student can pick up more of the language at a quicker rate by this method, the usage of romaji throughout her books creates a depency on romaji that is difficult to break.

Not only that, but since the written Japanese is handled completely separately, it does not reinforce the language material from the spoken books much at all.

Also, the written language books use much simpler Japanese than the spoken books for obvious reasons, but the result is a huge gap in one's speaking competency and one's writing/reading competency.

 

[Chaotic]

Here is the book that my college used in teaching Japanese.
Amazon product ASIN 0300038348If you look inside the book, notice how the Japanese is purely written in romaji. The reason for this is that the author of this book, Eleanor Jorden believed that reading and listening are instrinsically linked together, as reading and writing are, respectively. However, since the link between speaking/listening and reading/writing are much more tenuous, it is favorable to the student to separate these fields when learning Japanese. The theory goes that by using romaji, one can learn to speak and listen to Japanese at an exponentially faster rate from the beginning than if one were forced to learn to read Japanese first.
Although I do believe that Jorden is correct in her assertion that one can learn to speak and listen to Japanese independent from reading and writing, and doing so creates an environment where the beginning student can pick up more of the language at a quicker rate by this method, the usage of romaji throughout her books creates a depency on romaji that is difficult to break.
Not only that, but since the written Japanese is handled completely separately, it does not reinforce the language material from the spoken books much at all.
Also, the written language books use much simpler Japanese than the spoken books for obvious reasons, but the result is a huge gap in one's speaking competency and one's writing/reading competency.

So you're saying I will be fine the way I am, right (and if that's so, should I learn to speak it first or read, or could I possibly just do both if I wanted to)?

 

[Mikawa Ossan]

So you're saying I will be fine the way I am, right (and if that's so, should I learn to speak it first or read, or could I possibly just do both if I wanted to)?

What I recommend is that you learn to read as soon as possible. If your text is all in romaji, then as soon as you are able, write the corresponding Japanese in your text above the romaji. Try to read the Japanese instead of the romaji as much as possible. It will seem like a pain at first, but you'll be happy you did later.

I am not refuting what anyone else on this thread is saying. I'm just saying that it is possible to learn the way you propose; I'm not actually endorsing it, however.

 

[Chaotic]

What I recommend is that you learn to read as soon as possible. If your text is all in romaji, then as soon as you are able, write the corresponding Japanese in your text above the romaji. Try to read the Japanese instead of the romaji as much as possible. It will seem like a pain at first, but you'll be happy you did later.
I am not refuting what anyone else on this thread is saying. I'm just saying that it is possible to learn the way you propose; I'm not actually endorsing it, however.

Well, that's why I picked up this other course that teaches both Hiragana and Katakana. Fairly large workbook that presents me with many examples and practices. So I have no problem with:

A) Learning to read/write first.
B) Learning to speak first.
Or
C) Both at once - alteration.


But thanks for your input (everyone). I will probably learn to read/write first, then come back to my previous course with Romaji.

 

[Elizabeth]

Ok it was mentioned that I should cease learning the course that has Romaji in it. But I can't just simply let that go to waste, as I just bought it from Barnes and Noble. I did however save the receipt, but I don't think they'll just let me take it back for seemingly no reason.

I've seen the Is this the Random House Living Language coursebooks at Barnes & Noble. Is that what this is ? At least I think the later editions of that series do include kana material.

At any rate, it's going to be an uphill battle to understand/speak fluently and conversationally listening to tapes alone no matter how expertly designed they are sold as being. And the Living Language line of products was created as 'master phrasebooks' in my opinion. Not ever intended as a great pedological tool, but as a stepping stone for students planning on visiting and/or living in the country.

 

[Chaotic]

I've seen the Is this the Random House Living Language coursebooks at Barnes & Noble. Is that what this is ? At least I think the later editions of that series do include kana material.

At any rate, it's going to be an uphill battle to understand/speak fluently and conversationally listening to tapes alone no matter how expertly designed they are sold as being. And the Living Language line of products was created as 'master phrasebooks' in my opinion. Not ever intended as a great pedological tool, but as a stepping stone for students planning on visiting and/or living in the country.

It's an uphill battle to learn any language, right? Besides, I won't be learning it by myself forever. I'm going to be going to college in a year or so, so I will most likely pick up a course there.

Still, there's no reason why I couldn't study on my own until then, right? Also, with anything I've ever done, I've usually always taught myself or read from a book (I'd like to think of myself as a book learner as I may have mentioned before). Whether it be academic or athletic, and I'm not meaning to boast about that. I just never usually have a huge problem doing things alone. In fact, it's what I prefer.

When it comes to Japanese however, I will for sure look into getting in a class to master it (actually, I'm moving soon to California and I found out they have a top-notch school that will teach you foreign languages such as Chinese in 52 weeks. Sounds rough, but if you're serious about learning a language [like if you want to become a linguist or something like that] then that seems like the solid way to do it, eh).


EDIT: I checked through the Japanese Coursebook (Living Language) and I didn't see any Kana in there (there's 40 lessons). There is however a large amount of Romaji

 

[Terumoto]

You should definitely learn Hiragana and Katakana. You are making everything harder for yourself by not learning them, and they aren't very hard. There are a lot of sites on the internet that teach correct stroke order with animations and pronunciation with sound files. I can't stress enough how much learning them will help your Japanese.

Basically, you are trying to learn Japanese in English, and it really doesn't work well. Just learn the basic characters, and you can read and learn Japanese in Japanese.

I don't really have that much experience, but you are more or less me two years ago. I just started my first year at university, and thus my first year of formal Japanese study. I WISH that I had learned Hiragana and Katakana before I started, it would have made life a whole lot easier for me. Not only did I have to learn Kana, I also had to worry about vocabulary, grammar, oral communication and Kanji. I struggled with vocabulary, grammar and Kanji because it took me a while to become familiar with the Kana. They are a necessary foundation when it comes to learning Japanese, and everything else is built up from them.

 

[JimmySeal]

Which course is it? The Living Language Ultimate Japanese book & tape set is quite good. Worth the downpoint of being mostly romaji if you ask me. Though for my money, I've decided to learn languages without lesson books.

 

[Chaotic]

You should definitely learn Hiragana and Katakana. You are making everything harder for yourself by not learning them, and they aren't very hard. There are a lot of sites on the internet that teach correct stroke order with animations and pronunciation with sound files. I can't stress enough how much learning them will help your Japanese.
Basically, you are trying to learn Japanese in English, and it really doesn't work well. Just learn the basic characters, and you can read and learn Japanese in Japanese.
I don't really have that much experience, but you are more or less me two years ago. I just started my first year at university, and thus my first year of formal Japanese study. I WISH that I had learned Hiragana and Katakana before I started, it would have made life a whole lot easier for me. Not only did I have to learn Kana, I also had to worry about vocabulary, grammar, oral communication and Kanji. I struggled with vocabulary, grammar and Kanji because it took me a while to become familiar with the Kana. They are a necessary foundation when it comes to learning Japanese, and everything else is built up from them.

Got it...well, this textbook I picked up has 4 to 5 volumes. They look pretty promising, and I'm not worried about it (just read up the preface and introductory paragraphs to the textbook). Shouldn't be too difficult to get Although I will stay tuned on this forum for my many inevitable questions to come.

Which course is it? The Living Language Ultimate Japanese book & tape set is quite good. Worth the downpoint of being mostly romaji if you ask me. Though for my money, I've decided to learn languages without lesson books.

Well it doesn't mention any "Ultimate" words or phrases so I guess it's just a normal package.