Hiragana, Kana, and Kanji.

[Chaotic]

hiragana and katakana are far different from the alphabet when it comes to describing sound. They are actually moraic writing systems (the mora being a phonological unit under but distinct from a syllable), but since 90% of syllables in Japanese can be described by a single kana character, most people take the easy route and simply refer to them as syllabaries.

What this means, is that almost all kana correspond to a single syllable, as opposed to a single segment (sound). This means that they all are pronounced as either a vowel (窶堋?, 窶堋｢, 窶堋､, 窶堋ｦ, and 窶堋ｨ) or consonants followed by a vowel (almost all of the other characters). Many words serve as simple examples of this structure: 窶堙や?堙寂?堋ｳ has three syllables, and three characters "tsuﾂ・baﾂ・sa" Although it's by no means proof that hiragana is a syllabary (as it certainly isn't), it's easy to think about it this way in order to help get used to the written language for now.

I think I get it. Could you please write a single example in kana (break it down in syllables, or something), then one in kanji?

 

[shikyo]

I think I get it. Could you please write a single example in kana (break it down in syllables, or something), then one in kanji?

(One's own) mother:
Hiragana: はは (katakana would look: ハハ)
Kanji: 母
Romaji: haha

 

[Chaotic]

So Kanji basically just has one character for each meaning, and hiragana / katakana have syllabic characters.

 

[shikyo]

So Kanji basically just has one character for each meaning, and hiragana / katakana have syllabic characters.

I wouldn't put it that simple, for example, if you combine the kanji for ahead (先, in this case read as "sen" (on'yomi reading)） and the kanji for birth (生, in this case read as "sei" (on'yomi reading as well)) it would become 先生 (sensei) meaning teacher.

 

[Chaotic]

I wouldn't put it that simple, for example, if you combine the kanji for ahead (先, in this case read as "sen" (on'yomi reading)） and the kanji for birth (生, in this case read as "sei" (on'yomi reading as well)) it would become 先生 (sensei) meaning teacher.

Hmm...seems a little confusing, but English is probably worse (to learn as a second). I'm sure I'll learn exactly how kanji works in due time.

 

[nice gaijin]

kanji conveys meaning. In Chinese it is simple because it can only be read one way, but in Japanese, most kanji have multiple readings, and in many cases, multiple meanings depending on the context. Stick to hiragana and katakana for now, and tackle kanji later on.

 

[Charles Barkley]

Well, I've been watching subbed anime for years. I'm honestly having no problems with pronunciations...it all feels natural to me since I've heard a lot of Japanese audio in my days. Obviously I just started learning, but the words I have learned already feel natural to me when I'm pronouncing them, so I'm not worried about that.

I may be concerned about learning how to write in all those forms, but I'm sure I'll be fine (and I'm still watching subbed anime to this day).



By the way, I meant a Japanese native says the things in bold. A man, then it alternates to a woman throughout the lessons, back and forth. Simple enough so far.

Good. Definitely continue watching Anime. Just don't become overconfident in anything--it'll just make it harder if you are making a mistake to correct that mistake. For example, a friend of mine here would always say the 'ne' of 'sou desu ne' like the American pronounciation of 'neigh,' or the 'ei' sound from 'sensei.' I have tried to help her correct this, but because she refuses to believe she is misprouncing it, and has said it the wrong way so many times that it sounds natural, its difficult.

 

[Chaotic]

Good. Definitely continue watching Anime. Just don't become overconfident in anything--it'll just make it harder if you are making a mistake to correct that mistake. For example, a friend of mine here would always say the 'ne' of 'sou desu ne' like the American pronounciation of 'neigh,' or the 'ei' sound from 'sensei.' I have tried to help her correct this, but because she refuses to believe she is misprouncing it, and has said it the wrong way so many times that it sounds natural, its difficult.

Of course not. I'm never overconfident in anything like this.

Ne would be pronounced neh though, right?

 

[pugtm]

1 question. I learned hiragana but not katakana. Do i start learning kanji now or later after katakana? I mean you cant have much use for it...

 

[Charles Barkley]

Can't have much use for katakana? Having picked up the paper sitting next to me and reading the first couple lines, the following examples jump out at me:

アドバイス
チェックリスト
リズム
アップ
ページ
ノート
センチ
ウオーミングアップ
ペース

Not a lot compared to the hiragana and kanji, but enough, and the advantage of all of these words is that you probably know them already, and will be able to read them without having to look up what they mean. Can you tell what the article I'm reading is about (roughly)?

Also, katakana is essential when trying to talk/read about sports, hobbies, names, animals, restaurant menus, music, etc. Learn it as soon as possible, especially if you think you'll be coming to japan soon. But no reason not to learn a few kanji. They're fun at the beginning and I still find them fun. You don't strictly need to learn them for a while though, since most texts you will read will have furigana (hiragana written above the katakana) that enable you to read kanji you dont know.

 

[Chaotic]

Japanese has one form of speech though, right? :/ It has 3 forms of writing, but it doesn't have more than one form of speech right...

 

[nice gaijin]

Are you kidding? the "forms" of speech in Japanese are innumerable.

 

[Chaotic]

Are you kidding? the "forms" of speech in Japanese are innumerable.

I mean the English language has only one word for ... tree, I guess. Why would you want to say "tree" in 3 different ways? Totally unnecessary.

 

[Glenn]

You don't say it three different ways in Japanese. It's ki, and that's it. But you can write it three different ways depending on audience or style.

 

[Chaotic]

You don't say it three different ways in Japanese. It's ki, and that's it. But you can write it three different ways depending on audience or style.

That's what I meant...there's different ways to write it, but not a million ways to say it...correct (not counting the type of tree it is, like a Douglas Fir tree for example).

 

[Elizabeth]

That's what I meant...there's different ways to write it, but not a million ways to say it...correct (not counting the type of tree it is, like a Douglas Fir tree for example).

There may be differences in dialects or pronunciation that vary by local speech / accents, although I doubt it for something as simple as "ki." Also, those differences usually show more with conjugations of verbs, adjectives, etc.

Which is why everyone is always complaining how much more complicated the Japanese writing system is than the ways things are actually said. Not that both aren't necessary of course. Just realize it's much harder to try and speak without being able to read some first even if you don't understand all the reasons for it right now.

 

[Chaotic]

There may be differences in dialects or pronunciation that vary by local speech / accents, although I doubt it for something as simple as "ki." Also, those differences usually show more with conjugations of verbs, adjectives, etc.
Which is why everyone is always complaining how much more complicated the Japanese writing system is than the ways things are actually said. Not that both aren't necessary of course. Just realize it's much harder to try and speak without being able to read some first even if you don't understand all the reasons for it right now.

But I should get decently good at speech before I attempt to write it, right?

 

[pugtm]

But I should get decently good at speech before I attempt to write it, right?

when i learned my other 3 langauges i learned them side by side but they weren't this difficult. You may be on to something...

 

[Chaotic]

when i learned my other 3 langauges i learned them side by side but they weren't this difficult. You may be on to something...

Well, English is my first, and only language...so Japanese will be my second. It just makes sense to learn to speak it before you write it (that's what I did with English anyway...).

 

[Popo]

Hello

Hajimemasite.konnnichiwa!
I am a Japanese university student.
I think that you should study hiraganas earlier than romaji when you start studying Japanese.
To see Japanese cartoons and animations is thought to be effective.
You can learn the history of Japan, at the animated cartoon "Japanese
Legends"(Nihon Mukashi-Banashi).
I recommend that.

 

[Soloistic]

You should learn kana (Hiragana and Katakana) now while your still starting out. Kanji can wait till you have a decent starting vocabulary.

Think of it like this, The JLPT's level 4 requires roughly 800 word vocabulary and about 100 kanji. Though it isn't the best thing to base your studying off of, it is a rough outline of one way you can approach your problem.

 

[Buntaro]

Chaotic,

You said,

"It just makes sense to learn to speak it before you write it (that's what I did with English anyway...)"

--> That is true. However, as soon as you hear something, you are going to want to write it down, so you can remember it. If you start from the beginning and write everything in Romaji, you will be making a big mistake. Take my adivce: you should never, never write Japanese words in Romaji.

I recommend that you learn Hiragana before you even start learning how to speak Japanese. In the long run, this will work out better.

 

[Elizabeth]

Chaotic,
You said,
"It just makes sense to learn to speak it before you write it (that's what I did with English anyway...)"
--> That is true. However, as soon as you hear something, you are going to want to write it down, so you can remember it. If you start from the beginning and write everything in Romaji, you will be making a big mistake. Take my adivce: you should never, never write Japanese words in Romaji.
I recommend that you learn Hiragana before you even start learning how to speak Japanese. In the long run, this will work out better.

If you're listening to audio tapes you should also never follow along with the transcription in romaji. The sounds correspond only to kana, romaji is a completely different and artificial system which is not naturally geared to Japanese speech. You're only going to end up extremely confused and frustrated trying to map romaji onto the words and sentences you're hearing.


It's going to be painfully obvious before long that adults trying to pick up a foreign language is a COMPLETELY different process than learning your own language as a child. Unless you're a linguistic genius, you can't expect to acquire grammar and vocabulary solely by ear or reach functional fluency in a matter of four or five years ... It's going to take the effort of piecing together what is read with what is heard and trying to remember, or communicate, it all through writing.

 

[Chaotic]

Eh...I guess I still don't understand how learning a whole other alphabet is going to make it any easier for me to understand how to pronounce Japanese. But I guess you guys would be the experts...they had books at Barnes and Noble on how to write Hiragana and Katakana (both in one book actually...I think they had more on just one of them also), but I went with how to speak it.

So, question. Since I'm not even in a classroom (I may be in one next year however), this is just purely individual study. I can still do the same course I'm doing at the moment right? I'll never try and communicate with Romaji, but it's probably only there just for making pronunciations easier for people familiar with the roman alphabet. I would be alright to study the other course I'm on right now and learning how to write it in a separate book right?

EDIT: I picked up a book called "Adventures in Japanese" earlier today...coursebook/textbook. Looked pretty nice, it's fairly thick and teaches both Hiragana and Katakana. Obviously not to totally master the two forms, but it should give me the knowledge I need at the moment...

 

[Buntaro]

Chaotic,

You asked,

"I would be alright to study the other course I'm on right now and learning how to write it in a separate book right?"

--> No. Take my advice. Stop studying reading or grammar (in Romaji or Hiragana, it does not matter), and learn Hiragana. Then, you can go back and study grammar or reading only if it is written in Hiragana.