Help with this sentence

[Toritoribe]

2)
The latter is correct. に is used there since the verb is いる.
I would translate the last part as ", and some of them are injured".

3)
I'm talking about ほしい as an auxiliary adjective(補助形容詞), whose function is similar to auxiliary verbs, such like いる, ある, いく, くる, みる or おく. As you know, these auxiliary verbs are also used as a verb. The same goes to ほしい. Auxiliary adjectives are usually attached to the -masu stem of verbs (e.g. 動きやすい, 食べにくい, 読みづらい), so ほしい is an exception.

4)
What do you mean by "simple expression"?

 

[Narktor]

5) Okay, this one is a sentence I just feel a little confused about because of all the negation thats happening ^^
携帯電話が便利なことは認めるが、なくてはならないものではない。
=> I admit that mobilephones are convenient,...
...literal: it's a thing I will not not have
..."better": it's a thing I will have

I translated future because I thought it makes more sense, is it legit though to use future here?

 

[Toritoribe]

5)
なくてはならない is a set phrase as same as the case of 払わなければならなくなった.

 

[Narktor]

4)
What do you mean by "simple expression"?

Yeah sry, that was for the lack of a better idea how to word it ^^
I mean a simple "statement" vs. a "wish", for example:
a) This is what I mean by a simple statement:
私はお腹が空いている。
=> "I'm hungry"

b) This what I mean by a wish (obviously...^^):
私は美味しい食べ物を食べたいです。
=> "I want to eat tasty food."

5)
なくてはならない is a set phrase as same as the case of 払わなければならなくなった.

okay then I was right in my first suspicion about this construction.
I already sifted through my grammar, maybe I overlooked the chapter where it was introduced.
I'll have to leave in a few minutes so maybe I won't make it back here today to either correct myself or to make further questions on this... ^^

 

[Toritoribe]

4)
The speaker can't be the subject of ～たがる, so it's impossible that this form expreeses their wish(asking to do something) from the first.

 

[Narktor]

4)
The speaker can't be the subject of ～たがる, so it's impossible that this form expreeses their wish(asking to do something) from the first.

We're speaking about this sentence specifically now, right?
このごろの若者は, むすかしい本を読みたがらない

I might simply not understand your explanation now, but I asked wether there are differences in the verbal forms (outer appearence of the verbs) between "simple expression/statement" and "wish" (with -tai) when using it with -tagaru.
Because in this example phrase (and I just used the translation provided by my textbook if my translation was wrong ^^) I can't make out any formal difference.

If its still not clear what I mean then I'll come back to it later, have to go now ^^

 

[Toritoribe]

We're speaking about this sentence specifically now, right?
このごろの若者は, むすかしい本を読みたがらない

Yes, of course. Oh, needless to say, we are talking about むずかしい, and not むすかしい, though.

As I wrote, the speaker can't be the subject of ～たがる. As opposed, someone else other than the speaker can't be the subject of ～たい (except in interrogative sentences). Thus, 私は、むずかしい本を読みたがらない and このごろの若者は、むずかしい本を読みたくない are both ungrammatical. You can't compare ～たい and ～たがる from the first.

 

[Narktor]

Yes, of course. Oh, needless to say, we are talking about むずかしい, and not むすかしい, though.

As I wrote, the speaker can't be the subject of ～たがる. As opposed, someone else other than the speaker can't be the subject of ～たい (except in interrogative sentences). Thus, 私は、むずかしい本を読みたがらない and このごろの若者は、むずかしい本を読みたくない are both ungrammatical. You can't compare ～たい and ～たがる from the first.

Okay, but how do I know wether I have to translate:
"Nowadays young people look like they don't read difficult books"
or
"Nowadays young people look like they dont want to read difficult books"?

Looking at it I don't see much difference now anyway.
But my textbook only told me how the たい-form transforms into たがる-form, so to say. Does it even matter for the meaning of the sentence wether the hypothetical origin of the "new" たがる-verb was a -たい or...yeah "simple statement" form, like ます-form or dictionary-form for example.

Thanks again

 

[Toritoribe]

難しい本を読まない: description of a fact about young people's habit
難しい本を読みたがらない: young people's negative wish
In the former case, it's possible that young people actually want to read difficult books but they don't have much time to do so, for instance (この頃の若者は難しい本を読まない。忙しくて時間がないからだ。). "They don't do that" is not the same as "they don't want to do that", right? Similarly, "they don't want to do that" is not the same as "they don't do that". It's possible that young people don't want to read difficult books, so teachers have to force them to do so (thus, they read difficult books as a result). Understand?


～がる is a suffix that is attached to adjectives (e.g. うれしがる, かわいがる, 強がる, 痛がる), meaning "to feel/act/pretend~". ～たい performs as an i-adjective also here.

 

[Narktor]

～がる is a suffix that is attached to adjectives (e.g. うれしがる, かわいがる, 強がる, 痛がる), meaning "to feel/act/pretend~". ～たい performs as an i-adjective also here.

A)
Ahh thanks!
Does that mean that any "ます-stem + たがる" construction is basically
ます-stem+たい (minus the い of course) + がる?
In that case, my question how to determine wether the verb originates from a statement or a wish would be obsolete.
(If that's not correct though, I guess one could still say that がる is only combined with "adjectives" because ます-stem verbs can also act as adjectives if I remember correctly. And ultimately all adjectives are basically verbs, so there would be no problem with saying that "ます-stem + たがる" equals "adjective + (た)がる", right?)

As I wrote, the speaker can't be the subject of ～たがる. As opposed, someone else other than the speaker can't be the subject of ～たい (except in interrogative sentences). Thus, 私は、むずかしい本を読みたがらない and このごろの若者は、むずかしい本を読みたくない are both ungrammatical. You can't compare ～たい and ～たがる from the first.

B) I ask this for confirmation:
Is the translation my textbook provided me for
このごろの若者は, むずかしい本を読みたがらない。
=> "Nowadays young people (look like they) don't want to read difficult books."
false then?


C) Unless A) is true, am I correct then that I have to determine solely by syntactic criteria wether verb + たがる represents a statement or a wish?

Also, I need to confirm this once more, sorry:

As I wrote, the speaker can't be the subject of ～たがる. As opposed, someone else other than the speaker can't be the subject of ～たい (except in interrogative sentences)

Is what you described above only in context of this specific sentence, or is this a general rule? The thing about たがる makes perfect sense to me, but I feel very confused by the fact that only the speaker should be able to be the subject of ます-stem + たい. Not because I wouldn't trust you, but because I feel like I've seen sentences like this quite frequently: 若者は働きたくないです。

D) However, assuming that what I quoted from you under C) is a general rule:
Does this actually mean that I can't use wishes on this "ます-stem+たがる" construction at all???
It seems like that to me now because you said that -たい can't be related to someone else than the speaker, and "ます-stem + たがる" can't be related to the speaker.
This would mean that it's impossible to express with this construction that "someone looks like he wishes for/to..."

 

[Toritoribe]

A)
Your memory is wrong. Unlike 私はすしがほしい or ほしいすしがない, 私はすしが食べ or 食べすしがない doesn't make sense, right? Again, do not confuse 形容詞(adjective) and 動詞(verb). Although the Wikipedia page I quoted previously explained like that with giving notice "According to this analysis", these two parts of speech are clearly different in Japanese. "The -masu stem of verb + たい" performs as an i-adjective, but is treated as a conjugation form of verbs, as same as the negative form.

It should be "the stem of adjective(i-adjective minus "i" or na-adjective minus "da") + がる" or "the -masu stem of verb + たがる" (this is actually "the stem of 'the -masu stem of verb + たい' + がる", i.e., a kind of "the stem of i-adjective + がる" from the perspective of form).

B)
No. The translation is correct, of course. Why do you think it's false??

C)
I can't get what you mean by "a statement or a wish".
That's a general rule.
Is that sentence really 若者は働きたくないです? I mean, isn't it 若者は働きたくないものです, 若者は働きたくないと思っています or like that?

D)
It's not "若者は働きたい + がる", but "若者は + [働きたい ＋ がる]" (or "若者は + 働きたい ＋ がる" at the same time). ～たい is for the speaker, ～たがる is for someone else than the speaker. This is quite the same as other adjectives of emotion or sense, for instance 彼女はうれしい vs. 彼女はうれしがっている or 彼は暑い vs. 彼は暑がっている/暑そうだ/暑いそうだ/暑いようだ/暑いらしい/暑いだろう. The former ones can't be used because people can know other person's emotion/sense only through observation, hearsay, guess or something like that. However, 彼女はうれしかった or 彼は暑かった can be correct in narration of novels, for instance, since it's written from the viewpoint of "god".

 

[Narktor]

About A)
Okay!

About B)
Well, I though it would be wrong after what you said about the subject and -たい and
-たがる form:

4)
The speaker can't be the subject of ～たがる, so it's impossible that this form expreeses their wish(asking to do something) from the first.

As I wrote, the speaker can't be the subject of ～たがる. As opposed, someone else other than the speaker can't be the subject of ～たい (except in interrogative sentences). Thus, 私は、むずかしい本を読みたがらない and このごろの若者は、むずかしい本を読みたくない are both ungrammatical. You can't compare ～たい and ～たがる from the first.

However, it's not that important anymore. If you say the translation is correct I think I also got what you wanted to tell me with that above.
I guess it all got a bit chaotic because I didn't manage to convey what I mean by "simple statement", making it hard to understand what I actually wanted to know xD

About C)
So, let me try one last time to explain what I mean by "simple statement". It's sentences like this:

I go fishing today.
I must do my homework.
I came to school late.

By wish I mean sentences like this:

I want to eat fish today.
I don't want to do my homework.
I wish school started at 9 o'clock.

Is that sentence really 若者は働きたくないです? I mean, isn't it 若者は働きたくないものです, 若者は働きたくないと思っています or like that?

That's very well possible ^^ It's an example I came up with by myself, so there is of course no guarantee that it's grammatically correct...^^


About D)
Okay, this was also resolved through your answer on B).

------------------------

My follow up questions are pretty much answered.
This puts me back to my original question though:
How can I tell wether I have to translate
このごろの若者は, むずかしい本を読みたがらない
into
"Nowadays young people look like they don't read difficult books"
or into
"Nowadays young people look like they dont want to read difficult books"?
because the verb always looks like 読みたがらない wether it means the first or the latter.

About 5)

5)
なくてはならない is a set phrase as same as the case of 払わなければならなくなった.

携帯電話が便利なことは認めるが、なくてはならないものではない
While I admit that mobilephones are useful,...
...they are not a must/not indispensable.

google search revealed several pages with translations for the set phrase, I used this one: なくてはならない · Tangorin Japanese Dictionary
It wasn't introduced yet in my textbook though :/

6a)
大学を出て一人で生活してみて、 現実は厳しいということを知った。
=> "I learned that reality is unsparing, after I left university and tried to live alone."
6b)
あなたをいちばん愛しているのはご両親だということを忘れないでください。
=> "Please don't forget that it is your parents who love you the most."

correct?

7) a composition of mine:
車で事故があったら、よく車が治れないということをしっていますか。
"Did you know that when you have an accident with your car, oftentimes the car can't be repaired."

Did my japanese sentence say what I wanted it to say?^^

 

[Toritoribe]

C)
It's the speaker's opinion about young people's negative wish, so I don't think it's "wish".

This puts me back to my original question though:
How can I tell wether I have to translate
このごろの若者は, むずかしい本を読みたがらない
into
"Nowadays young people look like they don't read difficult books"
or into
"Nowadays young people look like they dont want to read difficult books"?
because the verb always looks like 読みたがらない wether it means the first or the latter.

I already answered it.
Help with this sentence | Page 12 | Japan Forum

5)
I can't believe that you textbook didn't mention なくてはならない yet since it already gave 払わなければならなくなった previously. These are usually taught as expressions of "must/need" at the same time.

6a)
生活してみて (= みた) shows that the speaker really did that, thus, it means "tried living alone". "To try to live alone" is 一人で生活しようとして

6b)
Correct.

7)
事故にあう(the causer is not the speaker) or 事故を起こす(the causer is the speaker).
治る means "to heal/be cured".
The non-volitional intransitive verb 直る can't have the potential form.
よく～ない can mean "not well", so ～ないことが多い or ～ないことがよくある is used to avoid being misinterpreted.

 

[Narktor]

5)
I can't believe that you textbook didn't mention なくてはならない yet since it already gave 払わなければならなくなった previously. These are usually taught as expressions of "must/need" at the same time.

But it's true ^^ I only learned "ない-form+なければならない" so far. The above mentioned constructions weren't introduced yet, and my textbook has made it a habit to confront me with stuff I haven't learned from it yet...

about 6a)
Okay, my english might have deficites here. To me, there's no difference between "tried to live alone" and "tried living alone". But as I said, this seems to be due to my lack of english skills ^^

about 7)
車で事故に会ったら、車が治せないことがよくある。

I already answered it.
Help with this sentence | Page 12 | Japan Forum

Then I have trouble understanding your answer ^^
At first glance, I interpreted your answer like you wanted to explain to me the difference between a negative wish and a fact about peoples habits.
I didn't see how it would answer how to determine wether "verb+たがら" means "...look like they don't want/want to..." or "...look like they don't/do...".

I have little idea what else you told me with that ^^ The only additional thing could conclude from your explanation is the following, judging by this direct comparison youve made:

難しい本を読まない: description of a fact about young people's habit
難しい本を読みたがらない: young people's negative wish

so, did you mean to tell me that たがら is only suitable to express that "someone looks like he has a (negative) wish" ?
Sry for the lack of better terminology than "wish", but how would you call it since we are dealing with a form rooting in -たい here?

 

[Toritoribe]

7)
Again and again and again, please read my reply more carefully.

治る means "to heal/be cured".
The non-volitional intransitive verb 直る can't have the potential form.

Even if you are not so familiar with kanji, I believe the difference between 治 and 直 in appearance is so obvious, right? Besides, I clearly pointed out the meaning of 治る, no?

so, did you mean to tell me that たがら is only suitable to express that "someone looks like he has a (negative) wish" ?

Yes, of course. I have never realized that my explanation can have another interpretation...

 

[Narktor]

Even if you are not so familiar with kanji, I believe the difference between 治 and 直 in appearance is so obvious, right? Besides, I clearly pointed out the meaning of 治る, no?

I did notice that you're using a different kanji but
naoru - Jisho.org
lists 直 in "other forms". I always interpreted this like "synonyms", only for kanji so to say.
I didn't think that there would be any meaningful difference between the two.
In consequence, if you wanted to tell me something about なおる through the use of these two different kanjis, I don't understand it.

Furthermore, I didn't use 治る anymore but 治す. If that doesn't make enough of a difference to allow for transfer into potential form (after all here naosu - Jisho.org 治す has a potential form listed in the list of inflections) then I didn't know.

 

[Toritoribe]

It's the same whether it's 治る or 治す. 治る vs. 治す and 直る vs. 直す are just intransitive-transitive pairs. 治 is for ill/injury/wound of people or animals, 直 is for repair/fix of often machines or like that. Even the jisho.org points out that "esp. 治る" is for the definition #1 and "esp. 直る" is for #2, no? Furthermore, jisho.org is not the only one online dictionary. You can check other dictionaries.
治るの英語・英訳 - goo辞書 英和和英
直るの英語・英訳 - goo辞書 英和和英

 

[Narktor]

It's the same whether it's 治る or 治す. 治る vs. 治す and 直る vs. 直す are just intransitive-transitive pairs.

okay, but what about the potential form now?
Is it possible for 治す or not, since jisho lists it in the inflections?

Even the jisho.org points out that "esp. 治る" is for the definition #1 and "esp. 直る" is for #2, no?

Okay,I didn't know that these two kanji confer slightly different meaning. I thought that both "repair" and "cure" use the same kanji, and I thought of 直 more as a matter of personal preference ^^
This concept was unknown to me yet, so in the future I'll look out for differing kanji related to slightly altered semantics in the same lexeme.

 

[Toritoribe]

okay, but what about the potential form now?

I was just talking about the meaning. 治す/直す has the potential form since it's a volitional transitive verb. The transitive verb of an intransitive-transitive pair is always volitional, i.e., it has the potential form.

 

[Narktor]

Thanks
Then`I guess
車で事故に会ったら、車が直せないことがよくある
should be correct?

 

[Narktor]

8) Another composition of mine. The situation is that I shall speak on someones answering machine and explain why I will be 30 minutes late to an appointment we've made:
もしもし、田中です。すみません、電車でくれることをきめたんですが、電車を間違えて
しまったんです。だから30ぷんほどおくれる。

 

[Toritoribe]

Then`I guess
車で事故に会ったら、車が直せないことがよくある
should be correct?

Grammatically correct. I would say 事故車は修理できないことが多い instead, though.

8)
くれる doesn't make sense since the conjugation form and the choice of the verb are both wrong.
You need to unify the level of the politeness of the sentences.

 

[Narktor]

Thanks!

9) http://fs5.directupload.net/images/170220/enzbv4pn.jpg
In context of the dialogue so far, how would you translate this part?
お世話になる is a set phrase which I would translate with "to be grateful" or "to be obliged" in this situation, but I still feel unsure about it.
I would translate the whole sentence:
あ、いつもお世話になっております。
=> We are always much obliged.
But honestly, I don't feel like it makes much sense. I must admit though that my knowledge about courtesy on the phone in english is limited as well ^^

 

[Toritoribe]

いつもお世話になっております is a kind of greetings often used in business scene. A dictionary translates it as "Thank you for your patronage."

 

[Narktor]

Thanks

10)
今日ね、急な仕事がはいちゃって、遅くなりそうなの。晩ご飯、先に食べといて。

I recently learned about the reduced forms -ちゃう (-てしまう) -とく (-ておく) and -てる (-ている)
食べといて is such a reduced form from 食べておきます。
はいちゃって is the same, はいてしまって。

I have problems with the underlying constructions -てしまう and -ておきます。
-てしまう means that an action will be finished in the future, according to my textbook.
=>"...because urgent business will come up, it seems I will be late."
The future feels slightly off to me, so I wanted to ask for confirmation/correction.

I have more problems with -ておきます。
Since it was introduced, my textbook told me it can mean that...
a)...one performs a necessary action until a certain point in time:
旅行の前に、切符を買っておきます。
Before the voyage, I buy a ticket.
b)...one performs a necessary preparation for using a thing or implements a preliminary solution:
はさみをつかったら、元の所に戻しておいてください。
When you use the scissors, put them back at the original place please.
c)...one leaves a state as it is:
あした会議がありますから、いすはこのままにしておいてください。
Because tomorrow there's a conference, organise the chairs as they are now please.

In this case 晩ご飯、先に食べといて
I'm simply lacking the creativity on how to apply it here.

"Have your dinner earlier" is what comes to my mind immediately, I just don't see how this reflects the semantics of -ておきます as it was outlined in a-c.

How would you translate it, and into which of the categories in a-c would you put it?