Help with this sentence
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Narktor
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- 9 Sep 2015
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- #102
1. 1 — Postimage.org
2. 2 — Postimage.org
In one, "kudasatta" is inserted into the placeholder.
In two, "moratta" is insterted.
In both of these sentences I cant make sense of the particle "de".
In one "jishoDE" and in two "otoshidamaDE".
I know "de" in many functions.
1. To mark a "tool" for an action
2. To mark a location of an event/action
3. To mark an event (like an accident, disaster etc.)
4. As a connector, attached to na-adjectives.
In a place like that, right after a noun, I haven't encountered it in any other function than case 1 and 2. And I can't interprete the sentences with "de" in such a function so that it makes any sense ^^
PS: Sry I didnt use the transscriptionsoftware for such a long time now, that the little expertise I had is pretty much gone again xD
2. 2 — Postimage.org
In one, "kudasatta" is inserted into the placeholder.
In two, "moratta" is insterted.
In both of these sentences I cant make sense of the particle "de".
In one "jishoDE" and in two "otoshidamaDE".
I know "de" in many functions.
1. To mark a "tool" for an action
2. To mark a location of an event/action
3. To mark an event (like an accident, disaster etc.)
4. As a connector, attached to na-adjectives.
In a place like that, right after a noun, I haven't encountered it in any other function than case 1 and 2. And I can't interprete the sentences with "de" in such a function so that it makes any sense ^^
PS: Sry I didnt use the transscriptionsoftware for such a long time now, that the little expertise I had is pretty much gone again xD
- 22 Feb 2008
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で indicates "means" in the example sentence #2, so it's the usage #1.
As for the example #1, it's the continuous usage of the -te form of copula(だ/です), so it's the usage #4. This can be applied also with nouns.
As for the example #1, it's the continuous usage of the -te form of copula(だ/です), so it's the usage #4. This can be applied also with nouns.
Narktor
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- 9 Sep 2015
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- #104
thanks
So, I would translate it like this then:
1. This is the japanese dictionary my highschool teacher gave me (and) it is very useful.
(alternatively: This is a very useful japanese dictionary my high school teacher gave me. ???)
2. - (These are) beautiful gloves. (Are they) from abroad?.
- Yes. I received them from my grandfather who bought them as a new years gift.
I'm not comfortable with 2. This is how I would interprete it if I'm following the "means" function of de, but it strongly resembles the function of "ni" I just recently learned.
Also, I'm very uncertain about how I resolved "kattandesu". I did it with a relative clause because I didnt know how else to do it. But I never did it in a situation like this, where the verb stands very isolated. To be honest, I'm not even sure to which word I should relate it to, but since it stands in active I feel like I can only relate it to the grandfather, because if I related it to "otoshidama", it would have to be passiv in order to become an attribute.
So, I would translate it like this then:
1. This is the japanese dictionary my highschool teacher gave me (and) it is very useful.
(alternatively: This is a very useful japanese dictionary my high school teacher gave me. ???)
2. - (These are) beautiful gloves. (Are they) from abroad?.
- Yes. I received them from my grandfather who bought them as a new years gift.
I'm not comfortable with 2. This is how I would interprete it if I'm following the "means" function of de, but it strongly resembles the function of "ni" I just recently learned.
Also, I'm very uncertain about how I resolved "kattandesu". I did it with a relative clause because I didnt know how else to do it. But I never did it in a situation like this, where the verb stands very isolated. To be honest, I'm not even sure to which word I should relate it to, but since it stands in active I feel like I can only relate it to the grandfather, because if I related it to "otoshidama", it would have to be passiv in order to become an attribute.
Narktor
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- 9 Sep 2015
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- #107
http://fs5.directupload.net/images/160902/rt2yo6as.jpg
First sentence. Cant make sense of the "to" particle after "toki" particle and "dewa" after "shitenaitokidewa".
Never seen anything like it, I only know -to when connected to a verbal phrase as the marker of conditional clause, an -deha I only know as "de" and "ha" which sometimes appear combined after a nominal phrase.
Maybe the -toki phrase is regarded as a complex nominal syntagma here, but if so, I've not yet learnt that it could be. However, I really can only guess here, thats why im asking ^^
EDIT: Okay I found out -toki is regarded as a noun and therefore can be combined with other particles ^^ I can think of some translations now, but I really feel unsafe here:
"According to the girl, when the woman shall look pretty different when using or not using makeup."
First sentence. Cant make sense of the "to" particle after "toki" particle and "dewa" after "shitenaitokidewa".
Never seen anything like it, I only know -to when connected to a verbal phrase as the marker of conditional clause, an -deha I only know as "de" and "ha" which sometimes appear combined after a nominal phrase.
Maybe the -toki phrase is regarded as a complex nominal syntagma here, but if so, I've not yet learnt that it could be. However, I really can only guess here, thats why im asking ^^
EDIT: Okay I found out -toki is regarded as a noun and therefore can be combined with other particles ^^ I can think of some translations now, but I really feel unsafe here:
"According to the girl, when the woman shall look pretty different when using or not using makeup."
Last edited:
- 22 Feb 2008
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AとBで（は） is for comparing two things, so AとBでは～が違う is talking about the difference between A and B. There is no とき after ずいぶん変わる.
Narktor
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- 9 Sep 2015
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- #110
Thanks!
So, should I translate it like this then?
"According to the girl, when the woman has used makeup compared to when she isn't using makeup she (=the woman) shall change quite a bit.
http://fs5.directupload.net/images/160902/s8wuzaum.jpg
This one also is kind of problematic for me. I dont know what to do with the "te" form inbetween "...youninarushi,...ookii..."
I'd translate the sentence like this:
"When she's wearing makeup, she shall laugh frequently (="becomes laughing frequently" don't really know how to express the change expressed through "naru" elegantly without almost losing it altogether...), and when she sees her partner (or: when her partner sees her???) she shall speak with a clear/loud voice (="becomes speaking with a clear/loud voice")."
On the other hand, there is no -to, or -toki, or -tara or whatever to trigger a "when" in my translation of the -te form, and I'm not sure if the -te form can, when acting as a mere connector, also confer the meaning of a particle like -to? The only other functions I could think is 1. expressing an accompanying circumstance of the action expressed in another verb or 2. give a cause/reason for a situation/condition.
I could think of the first option being correct here, but I also feel very unsafe because I also don't really know wether the -te form would then apply to the part before or after.
So, should I translate it like this then?
"According to the girl, when the woman has used makeup compared to when she isn't using makeup she (=the woman) shall change quite a bit.
http://fs5.directupload.net/images/160902/s8wuzaum.jpg
This one also is kind of problematic for me. I dont know what to do with the "te" form inbetween "...youninarushi,...ookii..."
I'd translate the sentence like this:
"When she's wearing makeup, she shall laugh frequently (="becomes laughing frequently" don't really know how to express the change expressed through "naru" elegantly without almost losing it altogether...), and when she sees her partner (or: when her partner sees her???) she shall speak with a clear/loud voice (="becomes speaking with a clear/loud voice")."
On the other hand, there is no -to, or -toki, or -tara or whatever to trigger a "when" in my translation of the -te form, and I'm not sure if the -te form can, when acting as a mere connector, also confer the meaning of a particle like -to? The only other functions I could think is 1. expressing an accompanying circumstance of the action expressed in another verb or 2. give a cause/reason for a situation/condition.
I could think of the first option being correct here, but I also feel very unsafe because I also don't really know wether the -te form would then apply to the part before or after.
- 22 Feb 2008
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女性 doesn't refer to a specific woman. She is talking about women in general.
相手 means the one the speaker is talking to.
The basic concept of the -te form is listing the actions/movements in temporal order when connecting clauses.
look at the eyes of the one she is talking to, and talk with them with a loud voice (= talk with a loud voice while looking at their eyes)
相手 means the one the speaker is talking to.
The basic concept of the -te form is listing the actions/movements in temporal order when connecting clauses.
look at the eyes of the one she is talking to, and talk with them with a loud voice (= talk with a loud voice while looking at their eyes)
Narktor
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- 9 Sep 2015
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- #112
Thanks
So, just for the context, Im now attaching the whole textbox:
http://fs5.directupload.net/images/160902/zd7vldqm.jpg
Because I thought that in this context, the narrator talks about the woman described in the text.
I'm still a bit irritated about the appearance of both "-shi" and "-te form". At the end of the day, they are both connectors, but I've never seen them alongside each other. "-shi" can (to my knowledge so far) either connect expressions of the same quality (for example "good" or "bad") or have a causal semantics towards what is mentioned afterwards (for example: "because the coffee tastes good and the fish is fresh, this store is popular").
I would say "-shi" is used in the first of the aforementioned functions, so together with your advice, I'd translate the whole sentence like this:
"When she wears make-up, she laughs frequently and speaks with a loud voice while looking her partner in the eyes."
So, just for the context, Im now attaching the whole textbox:
http://fs5.directupload.net/images/160902/zd7vldqm.jpg
Because I thought that in this context, the narrator talks about the woman described in the text.
I'm still a bit irritated about the appearance of both "-shi" and "-te form". At the end of the day, they are both connectors, but I've never seen them alongside each other. "-shi" can (to my knowledge so far) either connect expressions of the same quality (for example "good" or "bad") or have a causal semantics towards what is mentioned afterwards (for example: "because the coffee tastes good and the fish is fresh, this store is popular").
I would say "-shi" is used in the first of the aforementioned functions, so together with your advice, I'd translate the whole sentence like this:
"When she wears make-up, she laughs frequently and speaks with a loud voice while looking her partner in the eyes."
- 22 Feb 2008
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It's the plural "old women". 女性 is used there instead of お年寄り since she doesn't take charge of old men. If it's singular, ある女性 and その女性 are used.
相手の目を見て、大きい声で話す is a set, so it can be considered as two actions connected with し, not three actions with し and て.
相手の目を見て、大きい声で話す is a set, so it can be considered as two actions connected with し, not three actions with し and て.
Narktor
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- 9 Sep 2015
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- #115
I've uploaded the following text which I've translated below. The sentences where I'm almost sure that I got something wrong are underlined.
IMG_20161121_0001_NEW.pdf - DocDroid
In addition, at the very bottom, I've typed down these sentences where I've struggled the most in Japanese, so in case you don't want to read the whole text you can just jump there.
I've also marked in red the elements that were the most confusing for me.
----------------------------
How was Tatami used in the past? What are the advantages of Tatami? Read about it!
We say that it is tatami, what the foreign tourists who came to Japan had the most interest for in the rooms. The matieral used in the houses floors is very rare. In France, so that they can speak (it) Japanese like Japanese people, they call it "Tatamiser", to the degree that tatami became a must do for Japanese culture. In the past, tatami wasn't laid across the whole room like today. However noble the house was, the rooms floors were of wood, and only when a guest came was tatami laid out.
It was used exactly as todays Japanese seat cushion.
It is said that it was given the name "Tatami", because one folded/stapled it (how) many, when not used.
Concerning "tatami", because it stems from the word "tatamu" of Japanese origin,it confers the meaning of "to staple".
Concerning tatami, since it was "furniture" you could move freely, one combined it in diverse combinations and one folded it up and one did use it in different ways for a single room, when a guest came for a guest room, when doing a fun talk for a living room and when it was noon for a workroom.
Also now, rooms with tatami are used for various purposes. Because tatami made of dried straw and cane breathes, it is useful to take a rooms humidity and to make the air clean. Because a floor of tatami isn't too hard and isn't too soft, it is comfortable with bare feet. Because of this, there are lots of Japanese people who always want to make make their house clean, so they are able to walk on top of the tatami with their feet.
-------------------------------------------------------------
フランスでは日本語が日本人のようにうまく話せるようになることを、tatamiser と言いますが、それほど畳は日本文化を代表するものになっているのです。
First, it is the "youni" phrases I have problems with, especially their attachement to "koto".
I'm not sure wether I interpreted the youni phrases the right way.
The koto then is problematic for me because it seemed to me that it should nominalize the whole phrase between "fransudewa" and "naru", and while this didn't seem completely impossible to me, I really struggled what this nominalization should do in context of the whole sentence.
This then lead to the biggest problem, the "wo".
The only phrase that my book taught me about " X koto wo…" is something like this:
優勝することを目指しています。
In the case of the sentence in question, the part after the "wo" _seems_ to be lacking entirely. I simply couldn't bind any of the following parts in the sentence in the way that's shown in my example, at least not to my understanding.
使わないときは、何枚も重ねて置いてあったので、tatami というなまえがつけられたといわれています。
Well, it's mostly the何枚も in combination with what follows in the underlined section. I simply have no idea how I should handle this pronoun since my book doesnt offer me any other translation option than that shown in my text.
畳は、じゅうに動かせる "家具" でしたから、いろいろ組み合せたり、たたんだりして、一つの部屋を、お客さんが来たときは客間に、楽しくおしゃべりするときは今に、昼は仕事部屋にと使い分けていました。
First off, something that happened quite frequently already in my book:
いろいろ組み
As I see it, "iroiro" is in attributive function here. So why is it lacking the –na? Does this simply happen sometimes, for reasons of, well, laziness?
I had learnt that in case a "na-adjective" is in attributive function, it always bears the "-na", and when it is in predicative function, it's without the "-na".
Then well, I felt overall unsure about what I did. 組み合せたり simply seemed like a doublet. たたんだりして in the meaning I used, well, I don't think it makes much sense which comes afterwards, but maybe that's because I really don't know much about tatami. I simply don't know how folding the tatami helps making it fit for all the different purposes which are referenced afterwards.
Yeah, and then there is the "wo" again. Basically it's the same problem as I had it in the first sentence, although I think that it simply connects the phrase一つの部屋 with the following "tokiwa" phrases as transitive verbal complexes (I hope this is somehow understandable).
But its just a guess and I really feel unsafe about it.
Thanks again for your help :=)
IMG_20161121_0001_NEW.pdf - DocDroid
In addition, at the very bottom, I've typed down these sentences where I've struggled the most in Japanese, so in case you don't want to read the whole text you can just jump there.
I've also marked in red the elements that were the most confusing for me.
----------------------------
How was Tatami used in the past? What are the advantages of Tatami? Read about it!
We say that it is tatami, what the foreign tourists who came to Japan had the most interest for in the rooms. The matieral used in the houses floors is very rare. In France, so that they can speak (it) Japanese like Japanese people, they call it "Tatamiser", to the degree that tatami became a must do for Japanese culture. In the past, tatami wasn't laid across the whole room like today. However noble the house was, the rooms floors were of wood, and only when a guest came was tatami laid out.
It was used exactly as todays Japanese seat cushion.
It is said that it was given the name "Tatami", because one folded/stapled it (how) many, when not used.
Concerning "tatami", because it stems from the word "tatamu" of Japanese origin,it confers the meaning of "to staple".
Concerning tatami, since it was "furniture" you could move freely, one combined it in diverse combinations and one folded it up and one did use it in different ways for a single room, when a guest came for a guest room, when doing a fun talk for a living room and when it was noon for a workroom.
Also now, rooms with tatami are used for various purposes. Because tatami made of dried straw and cane breathes, it is useful to take a rooms humidity and to make the air clean. Because a floor of tatami isn't too hard and isn't too soft, it is comfortable with bare feet. Because of this, there are lots of Japanese people who always want to make make their house clean, so they are able to walk on top of the tatami with their feet.
-------------------------------------------------------------
フランスでは日本語が日本人のようにうまく話せるようになることを、tatamiser と言いますが、それほど畳は日本文化を代表するものになっているのです。
First, it is the "youni" phrases I have problems with, especially their attachement to "koto".
I'm not sure wether I interpreted the youni phrases the right way.
The koto then is problematic for me because it seemed to me that it should nominalize the whole phrase between "fransudewa" and "naru", and while this didn't seem completely impossible to me, I really struggled what this nominalization should do in context of the whole sentence.
This then lead to the biggest problem, the "wo".
The only phrase that my book taught me about " X koto wo…" is something like this:
優勝することを目指しています。
In the case of the sentence in question, the part after the "wo" _seems_ to be lacking entirely. I simply couldn't bind any of the following parts in the sentence in the way that's shown in my example, at least not to my understanding.
使わないときは、何枚も重ねて置いてあったので、tatami というなまえがつけられたといわれています。
Well, it's mostly the何枚も in combination with what follows in the underlined section. I simply have no idea how I should handle this pronoun since my book doesnt offer me any other translation option than that shown in my text.
畳は、じゅうに動かせる "家具" でしたから、いろいろ組み合せたり、たたんだりして、一つの部屋を、お客さんが来たときは客間に、楽しくおしゃべりするときは今に、昼は仕事部屋にと使い分けていました。
First off, something that happened quite frequently already in my book:
いろいろ組み
As I see it, "iroiro" is in attributive function here. So why is it lacking the –na? Does this simply happen sometimes, for reasons of, well, laziness?
I had learnt that in case a "na-adjective" is in attributive function, it always bears the "-na", and when it is in predicative function, it's without the "-na".
Then well, I felt overall unsure about what I did. 組み合せたり simply seemed like a doublet. たたんだりして in the meaning I used, well, I don't think it makes much sense which comes afterwards, but maybe that's because I really don't know much about tatami. I simply don't know how folding the tatami helps making it fit for all the different purposes which are referenced afterwards.
Yeah, and then there is the "wo" again. Basically it's the same problem as I had it in the first sentence, although I think that it simply connects the phrase一つの部屋 with the following "tokiwa" phrases as transitive verbal complexes (I hope this is somehow understandable).
But its just a guess and I really feel unsafe about it.
Thanks again for your help :=)
- 22 Feb 2008
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1)
The cause/reason you are confused is the meaning of ように. It's not "in order to/so that" but "like/as if", and "the plain form of a verb + ようになる" works as a set phrase, meaning "to become to do".
Your interpretation about the nominalizer こと is correct. The sentence is just a simple structure "AをBと言う", thus, "to call A (as) B".
2)
畳が/畳と呼ばれるマットが何枚も重ねて置いてあったので makes more sense?
3)
a typo: 今 --> 居間
Actually, いろいろ is an adverb, meaning "in various way".
組み合わせる is a single word (compound verb).
たたんだり means 重ねたり here.
一つの部屋を is the object of 使い分けていました.
Other corrections
The article is interesting, by the way. I didn't know the etymology of tatami.
The cause/reason you are confused is the meaning of ように. It's not "in order to/so that" but "like/as if", and "the plain form of a verb + ようになる" works as a set phrase, meaning "to become to do".
Your interpretation about the nominalizer こと is correct. The sentence is just a simple structure "AをBと言う", thus, "to call A (as) B".
2)
畳が/畳と呼ばれるマットが何枚も重ねて置いてあったので makes more sense?
3)
a typo: 今 --> 居間
Actually, いろいろ is an adverb, meaning "in various way".
組み合わせる is a single word (compound verb).
たたんだり means 重ねたり here.
一つの部屋を is the object of 使い分けていました.
Other corrections
It's not past tense.
You missed the function of では.
重ねるの英語・英訳 - goo辞書 英和和英
The article is interesting, by the way. I didn't know the etymology of tatami.
Narktor
後輩
- 9 Sep 2015
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- Thread starter
- #117
Thanks a lot!
1) Yeah, I forgot the function of youni naru…
But I'm still a bit clueless how to handle the nominalization.
=> In France, they call the thing they become (tense???) able to speak in Japanese as good as japanese people "tatamiser",…
I can't figure out how to meaningfully interprete the nominalization of such a complex phrase in any other way than through a relative attribute. But it still sounds wrong, especially with the presence in place.
Btw., the rest of this sentence was really correct (of course except for the –youni naru phrase again)? It seemed so far fetched to me because I had to insert a "that": "To the degree that".
The "no" in "nodesu" at the end of the sentence is again a nominaliser for the phrase "nihonbunka…irunodesu" right?
2) 畳が/畳と呼ばれるマットが何枚も重ねて置いてあったので
=> The mat is called tatami because it was stapled and put(in) many.
Yes, that makes sense, at least the preposition in brackets. If that extrapolated preposition is wrong though, then I guess I still don't get it, or my English is just bad
3) Concerning tatami, because it was "furniture" that could be moved freely, one combined and stapled it in various ways, (and) a single room was used right when it was turned into a guest room when a guest game came, into a living room when one chattered and into a workroom when it was noon.
=> that correct?
I feel a bit unsure because the "when" I used tends more towards a conditional semantics, while I know "toki" as being only temporal. Although a temporal meaning isnt out of the question here either.
Can the "and" in brackets be inserted here? Since –te form was used before I think so, but I'm more used to the te- phrases being connected to each other via the connector than a non-te-phrase
Besides, how the heck is tatami used?^^ do you stack multiple mats on top of each other? The text always talks about stapling it and I never saw a tatami room in my life so I'm just not getting the picture in my head xD
1) Yeah, I forgot the function of youni naru…
But I'm still a bit clueless how to handle the nominalization.
=> In France, they call the thing they become (tense???) able to speak in Japanese as good as japanese people "tatamiser",…
I can't figure out how to meaningfully interprete the nominalization of such a complex phrase in any other way than through a relative attribute. But it still sounds wrong, especially with the presence in place.
Btw., the rest of this sentence was really correct (of course except for the –youni naru phrase again)? It seemed so far fetched to me because I had to insert a "that": "To the degree that".
The "no" in "nodesu" at the end of the sentence is again a nominaliser for the phrase "nihonbunka…irunodesu" right?
2) 畳が/畳と呼ばれるマットが何枚も重ねて置いてあったので
=> The mat is called tatami because it was stapled and put(in) many.
Yes, that makes sense, at least the preposition in brackets. If that extrapolated preposition is wrong though, then I guess I still don't get it, or my English is just bad
3) Concerning tatami, because it was "furniture" that could be moved freely, one combined and stapled it in various ways, (and) a single room was used right when it was turned into a guest room when a guest game came, into a living room when one chattered and into a workroom when it was noon.
=> that correct?
I feel a bit unsure because the "when" I used tends more towards a conditional semantics, while I know "toki" as being only temporal. Although a temporal meaning isnt out of the question here either.
Can the "and" in brackets be inserted here? Since –te form was used before I think so, but I'm more used to the te- phrases being connected to each other via the connector than a non-te-phrase
Besides, how the heck is tatami used?^^ do you stack multiple mats on top of each other? The text always talks about stapling it and I never saw a tatami room in my life so I'm just not getting the picture in my head xD
- 22 Feb 2008
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1)
日本語が日本人のようにうまく話せるようになること: becoming able to speak Japanese fluently like Japanese people
それほど: to that extent
の is so-called the explanatory の.
Noun-related particles - Tae Kim's Japanese grammar guide
2)
重ねる means "to pile up/stack up", as I quoted above. The action to put tatami on another tatami/other tatamis is 重ねる. (Tatami is hard, so it's impossible to fold it up.)
3)
いろいろ組み合せたり、たたんだりして is an explanation how they used tatami properly, so the nuance is more likely "by (means of)".
I also pointed out your other misinterpretations in my previous post.
日本語が日本人のようにうまく話せるようになること: becoming able to speak Japanese fluently like Japanese people
それほど: to that extent
の is so-called the explanatory の.
Noun-related particles - Tae Kim's Japanese grammar guide
2)
重ねる means "to pile up/stack up", as I quoted above. The action to put tatami on another tatami/other tatamis is 重ねる. (Tatami is hard, so it's impossible to fold it up.)
3)
いろいろ組み合せたり、たたんだりして is an explanation how they used tatami properly, so the nuance is more likely "by (means of)".
It was an old usage of tatami, and it's not used like that nowadays, as in the text.
I also pointed out your other misinterpretations in my previous post.
Narktor
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- 9 Sep 2015
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- Thread starter
- #119
Thanks!
Yeah I was about to adress those now because I didnt have enough time to do them all at once
1) Sry I'm still unable to integrate this part into the whole sentence, even though you've given me its translation. Could you please give me a translation of the whole sentence?
2) Yeah fold up also wasnt correct according to my book, but it was "fold, fold together". To staple makes much more sense though if tatami is hard, but I wonder why they use the word in this meaning here if they didnt tell me the required meaning before ^^
Still, is the version I've translated in my second approach correct now and if not, how should I change it? It didn't contain "fold" anymore.
3) Concerning tatami, because it was "furniture" that could be moved freely, by combining and stapling it in various ways a single room was used right when it was turned into a guest room when a guest game came, into a living room when one chattered and into a workroom when it was noon.
=> I hope I understood you right in linking the "by (means of)" suggestion to the te-phrase and not the following toki phrases, since I kind of asked for both ^^ but in the toki phrases it didnt make any sense to me and you also didnt quote them so I chose this version
--------------------------------
The other points:
1) yep oversaw the tense.
2) Yeah thats a problem. If it was a mere "ha" I would just translate:
"Concerning the material used in the floor of the house, it is a rare thing."
But for the particle "de" except for the instrumental semantics and the local semantics and some special semantics like in relation to disasters, numerals etc., I don't know any other. And with these semantics, I cant really work here, or at least I have no idea how to without making things worse, at least if its explicitely translated.
"Concerning in the material used in the houses floor it is a very rare thing."
3) Um, sry, I don't really know what you're aiming at with this ^^ Should I add "to pile up" next to the "to staple"?
Sry I'm just not getting it ^^
Yeah I was about to adress those now because I didnt have enough time to do them all at once
1) Sry I'm still unable to integrate this part into the whole sentence, even though you've given me its translation. Could you please give me a translation of the whole sentence?
2) Yeah fold up also wasnt correct according to my book, but it was "fold, fold together". To staple makes much more sense though if tatami is hard, but I wonder why they use the word in this meaning here if they didnt tell me the required meaning before ^^
Still, is the version I've translated in my second approach correct now and if not, how should I change it? It didn't contain "fold" anymore.
3) Concerning tatami, because it was "furniture" that could be moved freely, by combining and stapling it in various ways a single room was used right when it was turned into a guest room when a guest game came, into a living room when one chattered and into a workroom when it was noon.
=> I hope I understood you right in linking the "by (means of)" suggestion to the te-phrase and not the following toki phrases, since I kind of asked for both ^^ but in the toki phrases it didnt make any sense to me and you also didnt quote them so I chose this version
--------------------------------
The other points:
1) yep oversaw the tense.
2) Yeah thats a problem. If it was a mere "ha" I would just translate:
"Concerning the material used in the floor of the house, it is a rare thing."
But for the particle "de" except for the instrumental semantics and the local semantics and some special semantics like in relation to disasters, numerals etc., I don't know any other. And with these semantics, I cant really work here, or at least I have no idea how to without making things worse, at least if its explicitely translated.
"Concerning in the material used in the houses floor it is a very rare thing."
3) Um, sry, I don't really know what you're aiming at with this ^^ Should I add "to pile up" next to the "to staple"?
Sry I'm just not getting it ^^
Last edited:
- 22 Feb 2008
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1)
You got the structure "AをBと言う" correctly.
In France, they call becoming able to speak Japanese fluently like Japanese people"tatamiser" (= it's called "tatamiser" that one becomes able to speak Japanese fluently like Japanese people). Tatami is an representative item of Japanese culture to that extent.
2)
The problem is that the actual old usage of tatami and the explanation in the article are different. たたむ indeed means "to fold in/up", and is really the etymology of tatami, but 重ねる can't have this meaning. It only means "to pile up/stack up (= to put a tatami on another tatami/other tatamis without changing its shape)", as I pointed out. However, old tatamis were actually thin and soft like a carpet, and were folded up or rolled up when it's not used. The explanation 何枚も重ねておいてあったので doesn't fit this usage.
3)
2')
The subject is tatami, not material.
You got the structure "AをBと言う" correctly.
In France, they call becoming able to speak Japanese fluently like Japanese people"tatamiser" (= it's called "tatamiser" that one becomes able to speak Japanese fluently like Japanese people). Tatami is an representative item of Japanese culture to that extent.
2)
The problem is that the actual old usage of tatami and the explanation in the article are different. たたむ indeed means "to fold in/up", and is really the etymology of tatami, but 重ねる can't have this meaning. It only means "to pile up/stack up (= to put a tatami on another tatami/other tatamis without changing its shape)", as I pointed out. However, old tatamis were actually thin and soft like a carpet, and were folded up or rolled up when it's not used. The explanation 何枚も重ねておいてあったので doesn't fit this usage.
3)
Where do you interpret this "when" comes from?
2')
The subject is tatami, not material.
Narktor
後輩
- 9 Sep 2015
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- Thread starter
- #121
now it all got deleted what I had written -.-
Well, lets make it short.
1) Thanks, now I get it!
3) I get the "when" from the "to". So this when is the conditional semantics from "to", while the other when phrases have temporal semantics from the "toki". The temporal phrases are subsumed in the big conditional "to" phrase. Thats how I interpreted it.
Well, lets make it short.
1) Thanks, now I get it!
3) I get the "when" from the "to". So this when is the conditional semantics from "to", while the other when phrases have temporal semantics from the "toki". The temporal phrases are subsumed in the big conditional "to" phrase. Thats how I interpreted it.
- 22 Feb 2008
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The conditional と is always attached to the present form of the predicative (verb, adjective or copula), and is never directly attached to a particle or noun. This is a very basic rule the learners must know. How about …に使い分けていました? The meaning is almost the same.
畳は、住まいの床に使われる材料の中では/材料としては非常に珍しいものです。 makes more sense, maybe?
One more correction;
additional explanation:
畳は、住まいの床に使われる材料の中では/材料としては非常に珍しいものです。 makes more sense, maybe?
One more correction;
そうです is hearsay. It's not "we say".
Narktor
後輩
- 9 Sep 2015
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- Thread starter
- #123
Concerning my grammar, i know the following constructions with "という", apart from the one in quoting somebody:
1. sentence + というnoun (noun, which expresses a thought or expression)
for example: むかしここは海だったという話を知っていますか。
2. …というのは…のことだ。
for example: PCというのはパソコンのことだ。
and
…というのは…ということだ。
for example: きんえんというのはたばこを吸ってはいけないということです。
---------------------
Now I have the following sentence before me:
てんぷらがすきだという外国の方が多いですね。
As far as I see it, the above cited grammar doesn't cover the grammar used in this sentence.
Maybe "kotodesu" was simply replaced by外国の方が多いですね here, but I feel very uncertain here because ALL the examples I worked through sticked closely to the structures cited above.
It would be nice if you could provide me with a translation and maybe an explanation for this.
I would translate it like this:
"There are lots of foreign people who like tempura."
This would make perfect sense, but I wanted to doublecheck so I don't get anything wrong.
I'm a bit p***ed I must say because there are actually quite a few points in this book where the grammar used in the exercises exceeds what was explained in the accompanying grammar.
If you haven't got a teacher to ask, it's quite annoying…
Thanks in advance!
1. sentence + というnoun (noun, which expresses a thought or expression)
for example: むかしここは海だったという話を知っていますか。
2. …というのは…のことだ。
for example: PCというのはパソコンのことだ。
and
…というのは…ということだ。
for example: きんえんというのはたばこを吸ってはいけないということです。
---------------------
Now I have the following sentence before me:
てんぷらがすきだという外国の方が多いですね。
As far as I see it, the above cited grammar doesn't cover the grammar used in this sentence.
Maybe "kotodesu" was simply replaced by外国の方が多いですね here, but I feel very uncertain here because ALL the examples I worked through sticked closely to the structures cited above.
It would be nice if you could provide me with a translation and maybe an explanation for this.
I would translate it like this:
"There are lots of foreign people who like tempura."
This would make perfect sense, but I wanted to doublecheck so I don't get anything wrong.
I'm a bit p***ed I must say because there are actually quite a few points in this book where the grammar used in the exercises exceeds what was explained in the accompanying grammar.
If you haven't got a teacher to ask, it's quite annoying…
Thanks in advance!
- 22 Feb 2008
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「てんぷらがすきだ」と言う外国の方が多いですね
How about your previous questions? Did you get all of them?
How about your previous questions? Did you get all of them?
Narktor
後輩
- 9 Sep 2015
- 218
- 0
- Thread starter
- #125
I'm a bit confused about 2), but maybe this is more because I must admit that I somehow lost track of this point xD
more precisely:
1. About:
2')
The subject is tatami, not material.
"mat" wasn't meant to be "material", but the translation of "マット".
Is the version: "The mat is called tatami because it was stapled and put(in) many" correct then, concerning the subject "tatami"?
2. About: 畳は、住まいの床に使われる材料の中では/材料としては非常に珍しいものです
I must admit I don't really understand (anymore) what you wanted to show/tell me with that, so I'll just make a translation of it for now ^^
=> Concerning Tatami, out of the materials used in the houses floor(s), it is an exceedingly rare thing.
(this is for the の中では part, I must admit I have no idea what to make of the としては, wether its one vocabulary or と して は or whatever...^^ I'm probably just dumb right now, but I've not even a clue where to look for it right now...^^
---------------
Apart from that, I think I got them all
more precisely:
1. About:
2')
The subject is tatami, not material.
"mat" wasn't meant to be "material", but the translation of "マット".
Is the version: "The mat is called tatami because it was stapled and put(in) many" correct then, concerning the subject "tatami"?
2. About: 畳は、住まいの床に使われる材料の中では/材料としては非常に珍しいものです
I must admit I don't really understand (anymore) what you wanted to show/tell me with that, so I'll just make a translation of it for now ^^
=> Concerning Tatami, out of the materials used in the houses floor(s), it is an exceedingly rare thing.
(this is for the の中では part, I must admit I have no idea what to make of the としては, wether its one vocabulary or と して は or whatever...^^ I'm probably just dumb right now, but I've not even a clue where to look for it right now...^^
---------------
Apart from that, I think I got them all
