Fingerprinting policy- don't let the issue die

[Glenski]

I don't change subject but I am pointing out "behind the scene".
How it's possible to state flaterly blatantly discriminatory and wrong.
Because you believe that Justice is on your side???

The policy is obviously discriminatory. Let me try to point out for the millionth time why:

1) It subjects most but not all foreigners, whether they are visitors or residents, to fingerprinting. That means it lets some foreigners in without fingerprinting.
2) It also fingerprints foreigners despite the fact that some have already been fingerprinted years ago, and/or some have valid statuses of residence (whether that is a valid visa or Permanent Resident status).
3) It also reinstates a policy that the government itself accepted as discriminatory just a few short years ago, as a result of massive law suits.

It is wrong for pretty much the same reasons as above, plus another:
4) No foreigner has ever committed a terrorist act on Japanese soil. So, why doesn't the government check its own citizens, the ones who have committed terrorist acts, since terror is the purported reason for this whole policy?

Let me tell you in different way.
1. I have NEVER EVER heard that Japanese living in foreign countries protest policies of those foreign countries.
2. But I sometimes (not often) heard that foreigners living in Japan protest policies of J-government.
WHY is that?

What does this have to do with the issue? Japanese are known to be overly tolerant (read: quiet) of harsh conditions. Perhaps this is one reason to answer your question above. Perhaps another is that you have not heard what may have actually happened. Who knows? But your question itself is off-topic and a smokescreen tangent to this discussion. The topic here is a discriminatory policy in Japan and against foreigners. So, you are changing the subject. Please don't.

Goldiegirl wrote:

Why are you so worried about your fingerprints going to interpol, or other governments? Seems like you are making a lot of noise....more noise than what this issue is worth.

Easy for you to say as a passing tourist, but totally naive. One reason to be worried is that the government is known to leak private information to the public accidentally. Another is that most foreigners here are not criminals, yet we are being treated as such. A third is that fingerprinting is not 100% accurate, so it is possible, even with 99.9% accuracy for the system to make false identification as a criminal. This may be brushed off by some people, but think about it. You might be able to explain away your innocence, but why should you have to be grilled over it, whether at the airport or anywhere else where prints similar to yours have been found? Very embarrassing for you if you have to tell your employer or friends or family that you are unable to go to work, school, home, or elsewhere because you are under arrest for a suspected crime you did not commit, all because a stupid governmental system was imposed, over false pretenses, and shared your prints with any governmental body or police force in or outside of Japan. It is more than embarrassing, though. You could be treated with mistrust for a long time by people who used to trust you, just because of a cloud of false suspicion hanging over you. You might even risk losing your job or visa.

give up your American citizenship and BECOME JAPANESE

You obviously don't recognize how asinine that sounds, do you? Why should I have to be forced into a corner such as that just because the Japanese government insists on instituting a flawed and discriminatory system? I shouldn't and I won't. Perhaps it is you who should become Japanese so you don't have to risk any of the problems inherent in the system. What do you say to that? It seems to be your only way out.

It seems that you are miffed because you are being treated different than a Japanese citizen,

I've told you before at least once. You just don't get it. This is not the reason people like me are upset.

As for making a commitment to the country I belong to, I do. I carry an American passport. I file for American taxes. I retain my voting rights. I have money in American banks. The reason I live here is irrelevant. What do you have to say about people who are rich enough to have homes in more than two countries? What should they do about their citizenship?

 

[pipokun]

4) No foreigner has ever committed a terrorist act on Japanese soil.

For example...
http://homepage3.nifty.com/tompei/NorthKoreaShip.htm
What a heavily armed ship...

This may be a bad example, for the ship did not sink in the soil.

 

[Goldiegirl]

If I lived in Japan, had my family in Japan, worked in Japan, I would get a Japanese passport. I don't want to live in Japan, I don't want to work in Japan; I live in the USA and that's that. My husband chooses to keep his Japanese citizenship while living in the USA so he gets fingerprinted. That's his choice. He could avoid it all, but he wants to keep his Japanese passport and citizenship. If you are rich enough to have homes in two countries, that's cool, but you still are just a citizen of one of them, so for the other you are a foreigner. Of course you can't become Japanese, as in genetics, but you CAN get a Japanese passport. You come off very wishy-washy at best...

 

[Astroboy]

1) It subjects most but not all foreigners, whether they are visitors or residents, to fingerprinting. That means it lets some foreigners in without fingerprinting.

Because Korean residents with special status push J-government as usual. They prefer half-Japanese/half-Korean status because of more benefits. In the USA, green card holders do not need to do fingerprinting? As far as I know, fingerprintings of green card holders in USA must be required.
Fingerprints for U.S. Immigration, Green Card, Citizenship, & Naturalization
So Japan is more gentle than USA.

2) It also fingerprints foreigners despite the fact that some have already been fingerprinted years ago, and/or some have valid statuses of residence (whether that is a valid visa or Permanent Resident status).

Fingerprintings are required at airport immigration. It is the same as your country. If Japan requests foreigners for fingerprintings on the road of Tokyo, then prejudice/disriminatory.

3) It also reinstates a policy that the government itself accepted as discriminatory just a few short years ago, as a result of massive law suits.
It is wrong for pretty much the same reasons as above, plus another:

When the time changes, law changes. And Japan is a sovereign nation to legislate laws.

4) No foreigner has ever committed a terrorist act on Japanese soil. So, why doesn't the government check its own citizens, the ones who have committed terrorist acts, since terror is the purported reason for this whole policy?

Nobody knows when terror occurs. That's why I said it is PRECAUTION, being the same as YOUR country. So you mean USA DOES check fingerprint of its own nationalities ???

What does this have to do with the issue? Japanese are known to be overly tolerant (read: quiet) of harsh conditions. Perhaps this is one reason to answer your question above.

Maybe we are arguing on different planes..... Probably the most important thing for people to go abroad is .... IF IT'S THE WAY TO DO, LET'S DO IT IN THAT WAY. J-government do not force foreigners to do fingerprint. If they don't like, they can return to his plane to leave Japan. Nobody blame.

I really don't understand why you are so much troubled with fingerprinting, which is the same or better than YOUR country. Or are you telling "I don't like it because I don't like?" Then maybe similar case to Anti-Japanese Whaling.

 

[centrajapan]

This anti gaijin gaijin stuff is only a small picture of the larger picture. This is about human rights. We as indivuduals have a right to not give personal info to the authority without a charge. This is why we have the Geneva Conventions, Human Right laws. It is to protect the weak from explotaition from authority. Its about personal space. We as individuals have to respect laws and regulations but this is a two way street. The authority and the police have to respect their laws too.

 

[ifjames]

Maybe we are arguing on different planes..... Probably the most important thing for people to go abroad is .... IF IT'S THE WAY TO DO, LET'S DO IT IN THAT WAY. J-government do not force foreigners to do fingerprint. If they don't like, they can return to his plane to leave Japan. Nobody blame.

How true: same as luggage searches, passports in general: it is part of world travel: this is just an upgraded ID check, which will be world wide fairly soon I would think.

 

[Glenski]

If I lived in Japan, had my family in Japan, worked in Japan, I would get a Japanese passport. I don't want to live in Japan, I don't want to work in Japan; I live in the USA and that's that. My husband chooses to keep his Japanese citizenship while living in the USA so he gets fingerprinted. That's his choice. He could avoid it all, but he wants to keep his Japanese passport and citizenship. ... Of course you can't become Japanese, as in genetics, but you CAN get a Japanese passport. You come off very wishy-washy at best...

Wishy-washy means someone can't make up their mind. I have, so you show your ignorance of the very word.

It's your option and mine to become naturalized. Your husband's, too. Ask yourself this: why doesn't he naturalize and become an American citizen? By your definition, your husband is as "wishy-washy" as me.

Also ask him. And, while you're at it, ask him what he thinks of the US-VISIT system and the Japanese policy (which are different). I'd like to hear his responses.

As for this remark:

If you are rich enough to have homes in two countries, that's cool, but you still are just a citizen of one of them, so for the other you are a foreigner.

I was referring in a general sense to anyone, so I can easily point out that in many cases (not mine, though) that whether one is rich or not, it is possible to have dual nationality, so it would not impose upon one the option to give up one's original nationality. You hadn't thought of that, had you?

 

[Glenski]

1) It subjects most but not all foreigners, whether they are visitors or residents, to fingerprinting. That means it lets some foreigners in without fingerprinting.
Because Korean residents with special status push J-government as usual. They prefer half-Japanese/half-Korean status because of more benefits.

There are more Korean and Chinese special permanent residents than other foreigners in Japan, so yes, they are more organized. Does that mean the other foreigners should be ignored the same human rights? I don't think so. Besides, the other foreigners are becoming organized and loud enough to effect change.

Moreover, the zainichi are not the only foreigners who are exempt from the fingerprinting policy. Do I have to remind you of that again?

Nobody knows when terror occurs. That's why I said it is PRECAUTION, being the same as YOUR country.

Would you please stop bringing up the weak attempt to compare Japan's system with that of the USA? They are not the same!

J-government do not force foreigners to do fingerprint. If they don't like, they can return to his plane to leave Japan. Nobody blame.

This is not forcing a person who has a home and perhaps family in Japan, maybe even lived there for years? Who are you trying to kid?

 

[Goldiegirl]

Sure you can have dual citizenship in the USA, but not in Japan. I didn't know we were bringing many countries in to this discussion. My husband doesn't want US citizenship because his job is in Japan and he had no assurances that he can remain in the USA. He has a very desirable job and isn't looking to leave it. Funny that you brought up asking him his opinion, I did at dinner. He says basically what I wrote previously. He gets fingerprinted and his picture taken every time we enter the USA. As for your situation I still say this, if Japan is your home make it official. Permanent residency just means you can live there for a long time, it doesn't make you any more special than a tourist, other than the length of time overall. Become a Japanese citizen and get over it already.

 

[caster51]

Would you please stop bringing up the weak attempt to compare Japan's system with that of the USA? They are not the same!

I think it is same no matter what reasons.
It is necessary to always prepare it.

 

[hideway]

I wonder why some people force facts into become personal issues.

This is quite simple, really. If you are in another country you have to apply by its rules, the worse you can do is try to force your mentality to others on their own country. Not every country is equal and you just have to respect that.

Plus, all this discrimination talk would make sense if anyone was actually being damaged by this policy. Is that true in any way? If it only did you feel bad, why don't you just deal with it?

Best wishes,

 

[Glenski]

Sure you can have dual citizenship in the USA, but not in Japan. I didn't know we were bringing many countries in to this discussion.

There are a lot of things you don't realize here.

My husband doesn't want US citizenship because his job is in Japan

So is mine.

and he had no assurances that he can remain in the USA.

So, you aren't reason enough?

He says basically what I wrote previously. He gets fingerprinted and his picture taken every time we enter the USA.

And, what is his opinion about the Japanese policy?

As for your situation I still say this, if Japan is your home make it official.

It is official. If it wasn't, I wouldn't be paying rent and taxes and health insurance payments and life insurance here, and I would be considered an illegal alien.

Permanent residency just means you can live there for a long time

Yup, permanently is pretty long, isn't it?

I wonder why some people force facts into become personal issues.

Me, too. I state facts, and some people make ludicrous statements that are pretty personal.

This is quite simple, really. If you are in another country you have to apply by its rules, the worse you can do is try to force your mentality to others on their own country. Not every country is equal and you just have to respect that.

I do abide by the rules, but there are rules that need to be changed because of certain human rights that the country where I live has ostensibly claimed to uphold, yet doesn't.

I don't force mentality on anyone here. I try to show them where they are wrong and need to change.

Plus, all this discrimination talk would make sense if anyone was actually being damaged by this policy. Is that true in any way? If it only did you feel bad, why don't you just deal with it?

Best wishes,

People like me are trying to deal with it. Aren't you reading? As for the damage done, skip back a few pages before inserting your foot in your mouth too far.

 

[Goldiegirl]

I am not reason enough, I knew what getting married to a "foreigner" could entail. I know that I may eventually end up living in Japan on a permanent basis. That was the choice I made, and I made it knowing full well what I was getting myself into.

My husbands job is in Japan. So he remains Japanese. Your job is in Japan you remain American? ( I don't work, I don't have to, so unless I get a job that makes way more money than my husbands - which is impossible - he is the provider for our family and therefore his choice on which country we live in is given more weight. I knew that before getting married as well.)

I couldn't give you his word for word opinion of you. It would have been censored. He basically said get out if your don't like it. Go HOME! (to your passport) If you don't like it leave. But you can pepper it with some extra words if you so desire.

You are an official RESIDENT not a CITIZEN...you are NOT special! Get over yourself already. This is so old with you. You have no right to tell a country which you are not a citizen how to run there border policies. You pay taxes basically as a fee to stay in that country, you are paying for the privilege of living in Japan while not becoming a Japanese citizen.

 

[Glenski]

Your husband's job is in Japan, yet he works in the USA. I take it there is a branch office there?

So he couldn't muster any civilized remarks, eh? Well, one can't really argue with pejoratives and epithets, can one? I'm certain you phrased the situation carefully enough to make the question one-sided enough.

Gee, yes, I remain American. Why is that so hard to fathom? Come here, live, and change your nationality. You'll only have to go through the US-VISIT system yourself and suffer the indignities of that process then.

As for me, I pay taxes because I am a responsible person who obeys the laws. Doesn't matter if I'm a citizen or not. I do my duty where I live. Not all foreigners do. I don't have to naturalize to live here, and it is incomprehensible why you imagine that a person should.

And, yes, I am special. You compared me to a tourist. I am not a tourist. Stop throwing smokescreens up with comparisons to citizens now. You dance badly.

And, yes, I do have a right to tell a country where I reside how I feel about its border policies, especially when they go against the human rights policies that country claims to follow but doesn't. So does the U.N. (and it does, too). Are you going to slag the U.N. now?

 

[Kyoto Returnee]

Fingerprint me.

As a kid in Australia, we had police days at school where the police would come and give the kids an informative talk.

The fingerprinting was the highlight for the kids, a lot of fun, although at the same time, being taught that bad people are fingerprinted.

This was always my thought.

Of course landing in Japan, fingerprinting for the "Alien" registration card was compulsory at that time, although it eventually changed.

the second time I was fingerprinted was when I was pulled over on my scooter for going through the railway crossing..

I could not believe they wanted my fingerprints..

I believe fingerprinting is a violation of privacy and human right's.

 

[centrajapan]

Glennski is right here. It is discriminatory and it is just wrong. If it was for counter terrorist reasons then the personal info should be deleted right away but instead it is not and will also be used in criminal investigations.This violates the foreigners' right to privacy. What is bad here is that the police can not demand Japanese to give out finger prints if they are not charged for a crime. Yet every non Japanese who goes through Narita goes through the same procedure as a Japanese charged for a crime.

Unless you like 1984 George Orwell and want a non democratic police state this is the worst news since Bush became president of USA and could have extreme severe consequences once the data comes into wrong hands.

 

[Kyoto Returnee]

Yet every non Japanese who goes through Narita goes through the same procedure as a Japanese charged for a crime.

Any idea why and does it apply to Kansai to?

 

[centrajapan]

Any idea why and does it apply to Kansai to?

Narita was just an example. It is the same in Kansai and every immigration throughout Japan.

The police cannot take finger prints of Japanese. The police dont have a right to do that. Unless the person is convicted of crime . Now foreigners who have no criminal record or someone who has never broken the law are getting the same treatment as Japanese who have broken the law by having to give out finger prints.

The Japanese government says it is due to the war on terrorism but the government and police want to reduce the number of illeagal immigrants in Japan too. There are many reasons to why Japan has implemented this.

The idea of having to give out forced finger prints is the idea that every single non Japanese is a potential criminal or a potential terrorist. I cannot agree with this kind of thinking. In the name of security individual citizens are losng personal rights and freedom.

 

[Glenski]

Everybody on this web site should read this. Just came out yesterday. Nice history of human right abuses and changes for the better and changes back again, from one of the influential people caught in the midst of it about 30 years ago (and still here and still not naturalized).
http://search.japantimes.co.jp/cgi-bin/fl20080108zg.html

 

[Glenski]

What was the catalyst or reason for reinstating this policy now?

That is a very good question. Some say Japan is the USA's pawn. Some say Japan is just following suit. Funny, though, how they both ended up using the same company (Accenture) to do the printing. Anyway, I suspect there is more to it than any of the above. Why do I say that? Read on.

I just tried compiling a history of events and got into a real rat's nest of human rights issues more than 20 years old (and now thanks to Morikawa's article in yesterday's Japan Times, even further back).
http://search.japantimes.co.jp/cgi-bin/fl20080108zg.html
I still don't have an answer I can pinpoint.

The latest fingerprinting policy seems to have started in the English press roughly late 2003/early 2004. See here for an interesting take on it, showing that even Japanese politicians find the situation somewhat flaky.
gyaku.jp

 

[centrajapan]

Its the New World Order. One world government. Big brother wanting to monitor you more and more. The elite in US and Japan are very close. They have the same mind set.

Little regards for human rights and liberties. Most of the people in US and Japan are fairly apathetic towards politics. They have a it does not concern me attitude. The flip side is maybe others think the politicians are controling you more than what you believe.

Its strange that both US and Japan use the same company. The way it was presented in the main stream media in Japan was on fear of these dangerous foreigners which Japan has to protect against and they kept showing the airplanes ramming into WTC over and over. Its such over simplified manipulation of the peoples mind and the sheeple mind set starts to tick in on people.

There are a few good points though. It becomes harder to forge passports. Incase of an accident it becomes easier to identify boides and people.

 

[Astroboy]

There are a few good points though. It becomes harder to forge passports. In case of an accident it becomes easier to identify boides and people.

Well said. But DNA shall be more accurate than fingerprint. Maybe we should consider.

 

[Glenski]

Forget "new world order". This is about fingerprinting policy in Japan, ok?

Its strange that both US and Japan use the same company. The way it was presented in the main stream media in Japan was on fear of these dangerous foreigners

"These dangerous foreigners". Yeah, I know all about them. The governement harped on 9/11, but it also made claims that the policy was meant to protect Japan against serious medical problems brought in by foreigners, too. Equally unfounded.

in the main stream media in Japan was on fear of these dangerous foreigners which Japan has to protect against and they kept showing the airplanes ramming into WTC over and over.

Please point out precisely what main stream media had such a thing, other than one video put out by the Ministry of Justice. In order to get that "over and over", you would have to sit and repeat it yourself. This was never, as far as my J wife and others recall, really put forth on TV (which I consider far more to be "mainstream media").

Its such over simplified manipulation of the peoples mind and the sheeple mind set starts to tick in on people.

At least you got that right.

There are a few good points though. It becomes harder to forge passports. Incase of an accident it becomes easier to identify boides and people.

How is a fingerprint policy supposed to make it harder to forge a passport? And, nobody every mentioned identifying bodies from accidents in the immigration fingerprinting policy. Remember, too, that not everyone is covered, and if this was one of the purposes, they should have been printing everyone. You are reaching.

 

[Taiko666]

J-government do not force foreigners to do fingerprint. If they don't like, they can return to his plane to leave Japan. Nobody blame.

WRONG! If a foreigner refuses to give their fingerprints, they will be arrested and will have their fingerprints taken by force, and then deported (and consequently barred from Japan for 10 years.)

This is in contrast to the USA, where if somebody refuses to give their prints they may return to their country unhindered, and return to the USA at any time without prejudice.

 

[centrajapan]

This is in contrast to the USA, where if somebody refuses to give their prints they may return to their country unhindered, and return to the USA at any time without prejudice

.

In return US is much more of a police state than Japan. It monitors its citizens more than Japan. It ranks in the same category as China, Russia. Here comes Uncle Gestapo CIA Sam. It is an endemic surveillence society.

Take a look for yourself.


http://www.privacyinternational.org/article.shtml?cmd[347]=x-347-559597

Big brother is watching you. Before you know it. Well have a micro chip up our bum. The police will come barging into our houses and then lock you up in a dark prison cell. ANd the sheeple will still be smiling muttering to himself. Well I have nothing to hide.