Drugs anybody?

[Haruspex]

I do believe that taking away the choice would suck some of the spirit out of life, so I assume im pathetic now.

The hypocrisy part I do not understand. There is a police force and law for a very valid reason. They try to catch offenders, which in the case of intoxicated offenders is not exactly hard.

And if you look at the argument you have provided, its is basically saying that our Human Rights should be violated so that we may not violate them. That is a rather awkward solution.
And state meddling from above is overwhelmingly humiliating.
The children argument? Well, all I can say is: tough! Life was never fair, and if it ever will be, I will surely have decomposed by that that... twice even. Not to mention that I do not see a difference between children and adults, being a person who does not believe in the worth of human lives.

 

[Glenski]

That "I think" in the sentence surely adds to its weight. I think its stupid to be left-handed. Convinced?

Ah, again, no logic. Look, you b!tch when I offer an opinion, and you b!tch when I offer facts. Which do you want here?

Oh, and your comment above is not even close to an argument like mine was.

Excuse me, why am I supposed to accept your values? Because they're your values? Great argument. To be honest, I have my own, so no thanks.

No. Heavens, no! You and I are entitled to our opinions even if they are 180 degrees opposed. Reread what I wrote (actually what I quoted from you). It shows zero logic, and because I pointed that out, you complain. Can't stand the heat...

Is that meant to be an argument? If so what does it argue for or against?

My stance is clear even if you can't see it.

What? You want to view the matter in a vacuum of context? By all means go ahead, as for me, I do think that you can not discuss such matters out of their social context, and alcohol and fast food form a part of this context.

Out of context? Look again at what context I've provided in the way of news stories.

I do not see a difference between children and adults, being a person who does not believe in the worth of human lives.

If any of you continue this thread after reading this line, you are only falling for the troll. Bye!

 

[Haruspex]

Ah, again, no logic. Look, you b!tch when I offer an opinion, and you b!tch when I offer facts. Which do you want here?

Oh, and your comment above is not even close to an argument like mine was.

I do not remember touching your links. I did not say a word about them. Don't write new facts please.

No. Heavens, no! You and I are entitled to our opinions even if they are 180 degrees opposed. Reread what I wrote (actually what I quoted from you). It shows zero logic, and because I pointed that out, you complain. Can't stand the heat...

More like because you're acting as if your words were axioms and you yourself the authority.

My stance is clear even if you can't see it.

Really? Resembles a personal attack to be honest. I'd say thats fine... but to call it a stance?

Out of context? Look again at what context I've provided in the way of news stories.

I will apologise here, I did in fact fail to see that you have provided stories.

If any of you continue this thread after reading this line, you are only falling for the troll. Bye!

This here is rather interesting. It is an obvious testimony of your arrogance and conceit. I mean, honestly, chances are, that I wasn't banned after a thousand and something posts, if I wouldn't be a troll. And again, do not assume that I have an obligation to accept popularly held values. It does not detract from the worth of my opinion that I do not believe in abstract ideas.
How dare I disagree with you?! Drama...

 

[Remixer]

I do believe that taking away the choice would suck some of the spirit out of life, so I assume im pathetic now.

To be frank, if the absence in availability of drugs sucks the spirit of life out for you, then, yeah, in my opinion that is extremely pathetic.

The hypocrisy part I do not understand. There is a police force and law for a very valid reason. They try to catch offenders, which in the case of intoxicated offenders is not exactly hard.

hypocrisy

noun
1. an expression of agreement that is not supported by real conviction
2. insincerity by virtue of pretending to have qualities or beliefs that you do not really have

When one goes around arguing his/her RIGHT to smoking/drinking should not be taken away and then infringes on other people's health negatively (especially in the case of smoking), then the above applies.

And if you look at the argument you have provided, its is basically saying that our Human Rights should be violated so that we may not violate them. That is a rather awkward solution.
And state meddling from above is overwhelmingly humiliating.

I wouldn't mind to see people who do not care to act responsibly towards others to be publicly humiliated.

The children argument? Well, all I can say is: tough! Life was never fair, and if it ever will be, I will surely have decomposed by that that... twice even. Not to mention that I do not see a difference between children and adults, being a person who does not believe in the worth of human lives.

What an incredibly ridiculous line of argumentation, Derfel.

Because you don't see the worth in human lives not only makes me see you as less of a person (not that you would care) but it also is no basis to argue in regards to fairness of life and what should and shouldn't be.

I will go along with you on your unfairness line this once and say this: "If children have to suck it up, right back at smokers, drinkers and drug users. Stick a bottle of Pinot Noir Wine up your behind and cry."



Remixer

 

[Kinsao]

The reason I don't do drugs is I have seen the bad things that can happen to people who have chosen to go down that road... Of course, there are some people who take illegal drugs and nothing bad comes to them, so that is fair enough, but it's a risk I'm not going to take because IMO the consequences (for me at any rate) are not worth the pleasures.

It's same with alcohol, I will drink it in moderation cos I enjoy it, but it's rarely I will drink to get drunk, and I also choose not to smoke. I think it's stupid to risk damage to your body from something that has such limited benefits, but accept that other people do feel differently.

 

[Haruspex]

If im less of a person now, well, I'd like to see the "person-o-metre", and any proof that supports its existence. Also, what does it measure? I mean, so far as biology is concerned, im of the family Homo Sapiens.
I would like to see how you support the assertion that belief in the value of human lives has anything to do with the degree to which I am myself.
I do not like wine, and neither does my behind. And since im straight, it doesn't "like" objects in general.

Now I think George Carlin put it very well here:

 

[Remixer]

If im less of a person now, well, I'd like to see the "person-o-metre", and any proof that supports its existence. Also, what does it measure? I mean, so far as biology is concerned, im of the family Homo Sapiens.

Stop being ridiculous. It is my view and not a standardized chart to measure people on.

I would like to see how you support the assertion that belief in the value of human lives has anything to do with the degree to which I am myself.

You are yourself and as such the sum of all your attributes shows how much worth you have in my eyes. It's a completely one-sided thing and I don't have a qualm if I am the only one who thinks this way.

I do not like wine, and neither does my behind. And since im straight, it doesn't "like" objects in general.

It was aimed at the argumentative perspective, not you as a person.

Now I think George Carlin put it very well here:

Good for a laugh (which I did), but nothing substantial to it. His view is because people die and kill as well as the fact that many are already dead, it negates the statement that life itself is a sanctimonious entity.

Not true even in the faintest sense. Life is a precious thing to have and has to be cherished and valued; this applies to animals and plants as well. If it really needs an explanation to maintain this position, then it already is futile to attempt to do so.



Remixer

 

[Haruspex]

Good for a laugh (which I did), but nothing substantial to it. His view is because people die and kill as well as the fact that many are already dead, it negates the statement that life itself is a sanctimonious entity.

Not true even in the faintest sense. Life is a precious thing to have and has to be cherished and valued; this applies to animals and plants as well. If it really needs an explanation to maintain this position, then it already is futile to attempt to do so.

I find that its hard not to nod when you are presented with the fact that in fact it is in our best interest to label life sacred.
I am not trying to ridicule here, I merely want to know why is it that we should look at human life as anything different than any other form of life.
Biology - the study of life in the most literal sense does not attribute life such worth. It is concerned with all sorts of attributes, height, weight, blood sugar, mental capacity, etc., but there is no mention of worth.

It is unreasonable to expect the listener to accept the premise that life has an intrinsic value as an axiom, since it is not.

 

[Remixer]

As I stated before, every life is sacred; be it a human, an animal or a plant.

The most important reason to label life as sacred would be to treat it exactly as such.

Some people cannot wrap their heads around why life should not be an obsolete thing, for those it is good to establish a premise to act accordingly.

Many people, however, only realize this to the extent of human lives and George Carlin did indeed make a very good point in that regard.

Many people kill insects solely on the grounds that they are an annoyance. Instead of capturing the insect and releasing it to the outside, they make mush out of it.

Personally, I find it disgusting.

If you wanted a long-winded explanation for why life should be considered sacred, I cannot give you one. Maybe it has been instilled into me by society and my parents and I have no real independence on my thoughts on this, who knows?



Remixer

 

[yumeitsumo]

DRUGS ARE SOOOOOOOOOO STUPID! I HATE DRUGS! NEVER DONE THEM, NEVER WILL! GRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR. All those who like doing drugs: YOU ARE STUPID.

The people who have and stopped: GOOD JOB.
LOVE YA.

 

[Jericho Desu]

DRUGS ARE SOOOOOOOOOO STUPID! I HATE DRUGS! NEVER DONE THEM, NEVER WILL! GRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR. All those who like doing drugs: YOU ARE STUPID.
The people who have and stopped: GOOD JOB.
LOVE YA.

I'm sorry but I had to laugh, because of all the serious posts that came from before.

Anyway I'm too biased going against drugs to give a non-baised view, but that is mainly from personal experience. When I was around 17 I got into weed, for all the wrong reasons mind you. I was sort of going through a depressing time and turned to them to see if it could make me feel better. It did not, all it did do was increase my anxiety and empty my wallet.

I find drugs a cowards way to escape from reality (although I'm not too fond of being drunk either) even weed. Of course weed is not on as grand a scale as say crack cocaine, but to me any substance that you use for the sole purpose of being 'high' is retarded.

However I do have friends who do drugs like weed/ecstacy and all I can say to them is be careful, because nowadays people put all kinds of crap in their drugs. This is when I sometimes think maybe the Government should leagalize certain drugs and put them through mainstream companies to insure nothing horrible is put in them. However the thought of a person being able to smoke weed right next to me legally say at a bus stop sickens me...

 

[Putrefaction]

When I was around 17 I got into weed, for all the wrong reasons mind you. I was sort of going through a depressing time and turned to them to see if it could make me feel better. It did not, all it did do was increase my anxiety and empty my wallet.

I find drugs a cowards way to escape from reality (although I'm not too fond of being drunk either) even weed. Of course weed is not on as grand a scale as say crack cocaine, but to me any substance that you use for the sole purpose of being 'high' is retarded.

1) I was around 16, and I wanted to see how it made me feel. It made nothing better, and the last time I smoked, there was no effect.
2) Agreed on wallet. Though I didn't do massive amounts, I don't carry around a lot of cash in NY.
3) Well, you take it TO escape reality, make yourself feel somewhat better...that's the whole point, and that's why painkillers are so addictive. It doesn't apply to your last post but I disagree with you on the cowardice, some people take drugs to ENHANCE that feeling. This is why people get drunk after a good event (weddings?).

But I'm really not a good debater or talker or really anything :\

 

[Haruspex]

We're not living in an ideal world. Escapism is part of life. It is present in all forms. Drugs, literature, games, films, anime, music, whichever you prefer.

 

[Malamis]

This is why people get drunk after a good event (weddings?).

I was always under the impression social drinking was a cultural imperative, and the opportunity to reduce your restraint in like-minded company; not the direct chemical effects.

But then i've not been subject to either

I suppose the lonely dram(s) of whiskey after an accomplishment accounts for that.

 

[Jericho Desu]

We're not living in an ideal world. Escapism is part of life. It is present in all forms. Drugs, literature, games, films, anime, music, whichever you prefer.

If your talking about escapism in general, yeah all those are valid, but excluding drugs, what you mentioned are also apart of things like freedom of expression, creativity etc. However drugs (at least how most people use it) do not have any other role other than to alter ones perception to sometimes quite an extreme degree at the expense of their well being and state of mind. This is why I refer to it as the cowards way out.

 

[Haruspex]

It is escapism nevertheless. I mean, what other purpose could it serve? (ok, fine, I can imagine some dodgy, neo-pagan, self-proclaimed druid pretending to be looking into the future)

 

[Chris K]

Excellent thread all involved. Rarely do you see such a rational and well presented argument about such a subject. This is gonna be a long winded post but I have so much catching up to do.
I think a bit of a stumbling point in such a debate is taking on drugs as a whole as opposed to one by one. Alcohol, nicoteen and even caffiene have been 'separated from the herd' whereas ecstasy is lumped in with heroine. For example if one side argues that ecstasy is relatively harmless and the other points out heroine has massive negative effects there is no disagreement but replace the specific substances with the generic term 'drugs' the argument goes back and forth for pages.
I don't think I know anyone who has taken heroine and survived unscathed. I have lost friends to H, both physically and mentally. One friend has died and others are no longer the people they where before they started. At this stage you normally hear the argument that it's the weak and damaged people that go down. Not with heroine. I've seen strong, impressive people who I looked up to as heroes get dragged down. I suppose their strength means they survived, damaged but survived. They managed to just about keep their family and homes but where at the very brink.
On the other hand I know people who are bang on Cocaine and pills with no ill effects. They limit there use to appropriate times and have a strong enough mind to keep their actions in check. Yes you do get the coked up 'wide boy' suddenly under the impression he is scarface and starting a fight but to be honest that agressiveness is a personal flaw. In most cases the increase in self importance cocaine can give manifest in nothing worse than an earache for the poor folks who have to listen to the cokeheads views on absolutely everything. In my view cocaine damage is very much down to the user. Those who don't show restraint or a sensible attitude get hurt. Those more in control of themselves and their life suffer no ill effects more than sleeping through the weekend and a nasty case of 'columbian flue'.
Ecstasy and acid have actually been attributed with positive social influences. Many state that the massive drops in football hooliganism in the UK during the 90's was down to the fans being 'luved up' on Es. I have seen interviews where people have recalled seeing the local trouble makers who would of been spoiling for a fight a year before hugging each other and giggling like schoolgirls off their tits on acid. Those who remember clubbing in the early 80's have felt the shift from the rather agressive days to the 'luved up' vibe that acid and ecstasy brought and survives to this day. Some may argue that there was a shift in social mood towards love and harmony on which these drugs hitched a ride but it still shows that these drugs don't have the negative social connotations they have been branded with and it is the context in which drugs are taken that causes the trouble, not the drugs themselves.
Moving to weed/hash these drugs are very dangerous IMO, and I speak as an ex heavy user. These are second only to heroine in the damage I have seen and in this case experienced. The danger being the damage is far more subtle and harder to notice. What I have seen is waste on a massive scale. A waste of time, a waste of childhood which resonates deep into adult life even after use has stopped for years. As you don't notice this subtle disease in you or your friends it is all to easy to just carry on gently affecting your life oblivious to the consequences and to not work to limit your use. The upside is once you notice this it is so easy to stop. I started to see the problem and halfway through a heavy session I refused a joint being passed to me. That was it, I stopped smoking and cut associations with people who did nothing but smoke.
An interesting aside is to look at the pricing of contraband compared to legal goods of all sorts. In the last 10 years cocaine has risen from ﾂ≫??0/gramme to ﾂ≫??0/gramme. It would seem dealers and producers care more for their customers and less about bottom line that legitimate business. A worry with this is that it currently beginning to become cheaper to have a couple of lines than a few drinks and the goverment are baffled why drug usage is surging.

 

[Remixer]

Hey there Chris K,

as a first note, please forgive my rudeness, but I am not going to reply to your comment in its entirety because it quite literally would take me an hour to argue against a few of your points. In general, I agree with your attitude.

I have done extensive research on Ecstacy around 5 years ago for a long time. The presence of MDMA in one's blood causes the release of serotonin and dopamine neurotransmitters in one's brain, which in turn causes all that happy-go-lucky and "I love you, bro!" happiness.

However, while outside the damage done is not visible, the chemical and psychological damage ecstacy has in a person, are quite profound and extensive.

Serotonin and dopamine storage cells are quite literally eaten up, instead of remaining as empty shells which would refill over time. Not at first, but over an extended period of usage, it leaves a chemically unbalanced body alongside a dampened/depressive attitude.

While there is no real health risk, an overdose of ecstacy will cause a too high of an influx in increased neurotransmission whih the body's nerve system simply cannot handle and breaks down, which CAN lead to death.

Furthermore, overdosing limits are different for each individual user. For some, it takes 5-6 pills before they drop, for others it only takes half. Also, you would have to factor in that some Ecstacy pills were mixed solely for the purpose of killing the user, e.g. Red Mitsubishi.

On another note, the chemical imbalance and personality changes also provide an ideal basis for users to move onto other "hard" drugs such as cocaine, speed, LSD and heroine.





Remixer

 

[Chris K]

I've never seen much weight in 'the bridge to other drugs' argument myself. I have noted there seems to be a drug that caters for most differing personalities (except alcohol which as a mood enhancer is fairly universal). I can't see the tripped out hippy for example identifying with cocaine, famed for it's connections with arrogance and city stockbrokers. Or a coke user swapping the glamour and stimulating properties of coke for heroine. Amusingly there is a level of animosity between users of different drugs. Of course you will find people that are solely into getting out of their boxes and will use anything and everything.
I've known people who used weed for years but never drink or smoke a conventional cigarette, let alone hard drugs.
I hear you on the actual physical effects of E but I believe the drug harm table the OP has in mind takes into account social damage as well as personal health issues. And, again with restraint, the average user may well avoid or severely minimise these effects, especially when seen relatively against physical harm and ailments just being alive in these modern times can cause. In particular ecstasies connection with club culture means that heavy usage is limited in time, ie the whole clubbing lifestyle will fizzle out by late 20's, which may explain why there are so few cases of real harm being done with what is potentially a quite harmful chemical.

 

[ShadowSpirit]

The reason I don't do drugs is I have seen the bad things that can happen to people who have chosen to go down that road... Of course, there are some people who take illegal drugs and nothing bad comes to them, so that is fair enough, but it's a risk I'm not going to take because IMO the consequences (for me at any rate) are not worth the pleasures.
It's same with alcohol, I will drink it in moderation cos I enjoy it, but it's rarely I will drink to get drunk, and I also choose not to smoke. I think it's stupid to risk damage to your body from something that has such limited benefits, but accept that other people do feel differently.

The irony of you not smoking and not using any recreational drugs is that you are exhibiting behavior that is responsible enough to warrant drinking more than in just moderation. You seem to be a woman with a potent discipline and common sense. I don't know how much drinking you believe it would take you to get drunk. Though if you've considered drinking 4-6 drinks to any one night, I doubt you would be breaking any moral code for the indulgance. So long as you don't drink yourself to a stupor (and you'll know when to stop long before you reach that point, it isn't difficult to tell.) You should be fine. That's just my opinion, being a man who drinks beyond the point of being buzzed, but doesn't drink to the point of being sick, passing out, nor blacking out.

 

[Seon-a Kim]

Alcohol is drugs to, so those who say no to drugs, should say no to alcohol to

Based on the effects of alcohol, it actually would warrant a nice position on the list of hard drugs.

See some facts about alcohol here: Partnership to End Addiction

Now feel free to compare with something like Heroin... General effects of heroine include: intense, short-lived euphoria; lowered heart rate, blood pressure, and respiratory rate; nausea, drowsiness, poor concentration; lowered body temperature...

With many things it's just that abuse or overuse or long term usage is bad.

Many of the drugs these days were once part of the medical industry being used on people, some still are.

It's a matter of how you use it, not that you use it.

 

[ShadowSpirit]

I find drugs a cowards way to escape from reality

It "can" be a coward's way to escape. Doesn't necessarily mean it "is." You might not have thought too highly of yourself when you smoked weed, but hopefully you realize that you were a strong enough person to not let yourself be trapped by escapism.

When people smoke, drink, do recreational drugs, or even drink strongly caffeinated beverages; they are giving themselves dosages of chemical euphoria. People generally want to feel good. Whether it be through eating tasty foods, passing time with a hobby, or exercising to name a few. People can become addicted to feeling good all the time. This is when it becomes an escape from reality. An unhealthy obsession that interferes with routine and makes a person psychologically, physically, or emotionally ill. Yes, even exercise can be a form of escape if done in ridiculous quantities. This is what Derfel was trying to explain in his examples of. "Drugs, literature, games, films, anime, music, whichever you prefer."

If it makes you happy, then fine. Though know your limits. Most things can be experienced in moderation. My limits as I have expressed before, is to not ingest anything that is highly toxic (i.e., most hard drugs.) Cause even in moderation, the levels of toxicity that drugs like acid have, will cause immediate tissue damage. Most of which is permanent damage.

 

[Kinsao]

The irony of you not smoking and not using any recreational drugs is that you are exhibiting behavior that is responsible enough to warrant drinking more than in just moderation. You seem to be a woman with a potent discipline and common sense. I don't know how much drinking you believe it would take you to get drunk. Though if you've considered drinking 4-6 drinks to any one night, I doubt you would be breaking any moral code for the indulgance. So long as you don't drink yourself to a stupor (and you'll know when to stop long before you reach that point, it isn't difficult to tell.) You should be fine. That's just my opinion, being a man who drinks beyond the point of being buzzed, but doesn't drink to the point of being sick, passing out, nor blacking out.

Thank you for the compliment, ShadowSpirit!

Naturally, there have been (and still are) some times when I'll drink 4-6 or more drinks in one night, but it isn't an often enough occurrence that I could say it's 'regular'. And I like a couple of glasses of wine of an evening at home sometimes, but not every night - I'm definitely a 'moderate' drinker. Even though I don't drink much usually, I seem to have quite a high tolerance for alcohol, so I think I'm quite lucky.

I think I've only once gone out to get drunk for escapism, and it's not a great route as far as I'm concerned, but felt entitled to it.

 

[ShadowSpirit]

I seem to have quite a high tolerance for alcohol, so I think I'm quite lucky.

I'd consider this to be unlucky actually. It's better if you can enjoy the euphoric effects for a cheaper price (i.e. at the cost of less drinks.)

 

[naori]

i drang, and ive smoked weed... and some more not so hard drugs...