Doubts On Islam

[Hezam]

I do dancing for a pastime. The woman I dance with is only 14 years older than me, she is married to a man I have never met and has children. I do ballroom and latin with her. In both types you have to get close. Body touching body. Yet I feel no lust or attraction. She is a friend and we are comfortable with each other. She is not the only woman I have danced with, yet I felt no abject lust or wanton thoughts running through my mind when with them. We just dance.

Then you will feel attraction sooner or later and it doesnt go on the others.
( Please tell us when you felt attraction )

 

[Nichiren]

Hezam:

Wait dont laugh You still are wrong,It starter in the 6th century
If you are poor in math then i doubt your info about Islam !!

Hahaha..its 7th century. Not 6th century..Not bad!! I am using the western calendar when i roughly count numbers/years. Islam has nothing to do with numbers. It has do with abstract ideas or faith which is clear to remember or learn upon.

For along time i was asking my self "How those Illegitimate sons feel ?"
They have poor life,Everyone consider them in a lower level than the Legitimate sons.
So I prefer to be Legitimate even if i am poor i can get job..etc.
As you see in the west,You can see millions of Illegitimate sons because of Zina ( Illegal relationship ).

Polygamy to be legal is not the answer of ethical values as far as my Buddhist faith is concerned nor it is the answer for elligitimacy. How would u feel if your father has another woman or what would your mother feel if your father has another woman? I believe monogamous relationship taught us how to live what family means and true love was.

You As pure Filipinos,Are you proud of your family ? What if you was a son of Illegal relationship ????

I had a half-brother who is part of my family. He is carrying the name of my father to be ligetimate. I am proud of my family that we are one and intact and the asian values that we are taught and in my christian community as well where we live-- strong family ties, love and fidelity. For me this is a healthy family i would like to teach in the society.



is there a holy in war? What is islamic views and actions towards people who hates either in personal or societal level?How do we find peace in times of conflict? what are ur philosophy towards this thing as far as ur belief is concerend...


Good question,It needs much time because there are too many Terms so i will post them as soon as possible.


I like to hear what you've got now..

 

[Timeous]

"You have no evidence. once again scripture is not evidence. I require robust, testable, critical scientific papers that your magic fairy exists. Until such time you are making baseless assertions."

baseless assertions? funny, how if you study Al-Qur'an itself, and you'll see the based assertions of mine.
testable? you Nasrani and Yahudi people already tested the evidence of what Al-Qur'an say, such as NASA, they were researching this universe right? you people of Nasrani doesn't even know the composition of the solar system before you guys investigate it by yourselves right?
but Al-Qur'an already showed us about that without no one ever did any investigation at the time when Al-Qur'an descended.
even Muhammad ever told that at the end of the day, there will be so many high building at that time, and here we are, we live at that time.
critical scientific papers? there's no one in this world that ever make a scientific paper more critical than the Al-Qur'an

"Evolution is an observed phenomenon. Do you believe that gravity is "only" a theory or how did the people of Hiroshima die because of "only" a theory (Atomic theory). It is testable, it has the evidence (fossils, ERVs, genetics). Apes have a mind. they can do simple maths, have self awareness, show emotions have moral concepts, can learn sign language, can use tools.
You show a lack of understanding of evolution and what a scientific theory is. I am not going to waste my time on discussijng this with you as you don't even have the basics. I suggest you go and learn what evolution is, what a scientific theory is before you even attempt to continue with this."

that's it !!
now you say that. gravity, atomic, genetics, etc. you guys already tested them right?
and all of those had already explained inside Al-Qur'an, you know that Muhammad can't read or write right? even people around him can't. so there's no way he can make Al-Qur'an by his own hand, Qur'an descended to him. and if what you just said is true, then you proved that Al-Qur'an is true as well. you guys who have proved it
like i said, if you don't believe what i said about Al-Qur'an, you can see it with your own eyes that what i said about Qur'an is true.

"That is bad logic. Anyone of any faith can make exactly the same assertion. Look as if the same statement was made by a hindu"

i said the truth, they made the statue of their gods image, then they worshipping them
and about the scripture, where did they get that? don't they get any explanation about it? or they don't even know about it at all, but they still have faith on it? why don't you ask them about it? you like asking people about their faith right?
sorry if i overdo it, Allah forbid Moslem to insult another religion, but i'm curious about it

"(incidently Buddhism doesn't have a god)
Do you see why your statement is bad logic now?"

sorry if mistaken, because from what i see, they made statue of Buddha, and then they worshipping it, i think that won't be any different
my statement is a bad logic? i won't make any statement based only by my own logic
i'll use the base of Qur'an as well

"Incorrect. the burden of proof is on you. You have made the claim that allah exists and islam is the true religion. no you must provide the evidence for that. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Making the claim that a god exists and made the universe is an extraordinary claim"

haha, you're so funny
i claim that Allah exists, is because Al-Qur'an said that, why do i have to believe what Al-Qur'an said? that's because it shows the truth, what truth? for example is the one you said before, you guys had already proved the gravity, atomic, genetics, etc. right? and everything about that had already explained inside Qur'an. and that is what you can call the extraordinary evidence.

"Oh dear the old "the quran is a science book canard". Do you know that most of the quran is from christian and jewish sources? If anything the bible and the talmud would have more science in it as the quran is full of jewish/christian scripture. Along with that it has greek medicine in it as well. The old sperm is made from the kidneys originates (Sura 86:5-7) from a greek called Galen, almost 700 years before muhammad was born. If an all-knowing god had written the book it wouldn't have made such an obvious mistake, unless allah is a: Incompetant therefore not all-knowing which would make it a liar
b: Doesn't exist
i would also like to know have you read any other religions scripture?"

haha, you really lack of knowledge or you're just made it up
there are 3 scriptures from Allah before Al-Qur'an, all of them can be explained inside Qur'an
Zabur, Taurat, and Injil
the one what you called Talmud is a fake scripture, the book forged by Yahudi, the original one is Taurat, Taurat descended to Musa
the one what you called Bible is a fake scripture too, the book forged by some of Isa's student, the original one is Injil, Injil descended to Isa
and both Isa and Musa lived long long ago before Muhammad was born
even older than the one what you called Gallen
and that's what you won't call a mistake, not even a single mistake exist
and i said to you before right, that Muhammad and people around him can't read or write
because Jibril is the one who taught Muhammad how to read and write

you look more and more fishy, you know about Talmud eh?

"the moon has never been split in two. I would like a source on this piece of garbage."

haha, well well well, then NASA is a piece of garbage if you say that, see it yourself
o yeah, you can see that in google

"Read and digest. It tells you what one is and why your comments are no true scotsman."

well well well, i don't really get it about this scotsman or such as that
i'm not from west country, so how if we just talking about the topic not some scotsman or something like that, i don't understand at all

"I am not paranoid about muslims or islam. What I am worried about is gullible people who believe that the whole thing was a conspiracy by jews. Until that point no-one was too concerned about islam. Then a bunch of brainwashed, islamic idiots go and pull this dumb stunt and suddenly everything goes up in the air. Some, unable to face the facts that this was done by muslism in the name of allah, try and distort the truth. Go learn instead of towing the party line."

haha, i'm not some people who like to join in some rumor that saying 'jews who is behind all of this' and believe on it without reason, i know what's their intention
gullible? haha, so funny, i understand what Nasrani are, i understand what Yahudi are, i understand that you're trying to fool people by your action, i understand what i'm saying, and i understand all of those because we Moslem learn, study, investigate, and prove
and all of their goal explained clearly inside Qur'an

"Provide the stats and maybe we can discuss. Until such time you are making assertions, again. I also notice that a fellow muslim on this thread has expressed surprise and such a practice. Why is that? Possibly because he also find the idea repugnant."

well well well, you won't believe this one until you see it by yourself
i won't blame you, i don't think you'll suddenly open the Arab women panties to prove it, so there's no use telling you this
@Hezam
so you don't know about it or you're just playing around? you can ask your mom or your sister, err...i won't force you

"Why, have you looked and watched them?"
haha, yeah i saw it, and if Moslem did that on purpose, they'll be punished in hell

"The word is penis not "thing". The word can't harm you. What is it with religion and sex?"

that's the Islamic teach to cut a little part on the front of my 'thing'.
and i had already explained it to you

"The reasons are dumb. Seems that you do not believe in letting people make their own mind up. That is a sign of bigots and intolerance. Do you advocate going back to the dark ages?"

reasons are dumb? the dark ages?
funny, i already tell you the reason, and you keep blabbering without thinking
then i'm the one who have a dumb reasons? you don't even understand Al-Qur'an and you say the reasons are dumb? you're the one who advocate going back to the dark ages
why don't you study the Al-Qur'an itself before talking nonsense, think before talk
you'll see the truth inside it. that's why i said that 'you keep blabbering without thinking, i gave you reason even the example as well, but You keep talking nonsense.'
you really look alike the people at the Jahiliyah ages.

"She was married to him at the age of 6 or 7. She started to live with him at age 9.
Here is a few Islamic sources on the matter, so you can't accuse me of using western anti-islamic sites."

haha, you think i'll use the jews product to find information about Islam
i know you guys who behind all of this
if i want the sources, i'll use the Islamic products, Qur'an and Hadith
we're different after all
i argue for Islam yet don't seem to know much about it?
funny, me or you who don't know much about it?
that's true that i still have much to learn
but i won't say anything that i don't even know
like i said before, you keep talking without thinking
you're already 39 but you talk like a kiddo
so the quality of the british people is just like you, funny

 

[RolandtheHeadless]

"People always use this point to attack Islam ! But the point is you are free to marry whoever woman in any age IF this won't hurt her.Please and Please notice this important rule."

Every pedophile in the world uses this excuse. And so long as the pedophile is the judge, his actions never harm the girl.

"i said the truth, they made the statue of their gods image, then they worshipping them"

I understand your reasoning here. But your people carved Allah out of words, the words in your Koran. Humans communicate ideas and concepts in different formats. The idea of God could be conveyed in words, by a stone statute, or even in music.

Some religions may use statutes as the focal point for their God; something for believers to focus on as they pray. For Christians, the focal points are the Bible and the cross. For Muslims, the focal point seems to be the Koran.

 

[Mycernius]

Timeous has been banned for being an obvious uninformed, bigotted troll. There is a point I will take ignorance, but this quote from him did it:

haha, you think i'll use the jews product to find information about Islam
i know you guys who behind all of this

I gave him two sources on Aisha that were from Islamic sources and Hezam also corrected him on this. He accuses me of taking it from Jewish sources and appears to have completely ignore Hezam on this subject. Plus he has hinted that I am part of some sort of Jewish conspiracy. Signs of troll.
If anyone feels I am wrong on this please PM me.

 

[Hime]

Just this one for a quick reply. Should men cover themselves up then just in case they are a pleasure to the eyes women? Women can feel just as attracted to men as a man to a woman. Maybe all people in islamic countries should cover themselves from head to toe just in case someone might peek a bit of forbidden flesh.

Yeah that's a good point Mycernius....Many people wonder why its only women.

But even men have to wear modestly. But come to think of it, Men desires on women is not like women desires men so the covered parts of the body won't be the same.

Ahaha. Emo and goth people are by no means scary. If they scare you, you'd probably be terrified if you walked past me (not that I am anyone to be afraid of, lol). Simply put, immersion in goth or emo subculture is not known to result in a wide range of 'side effects' associated with Islamic fundamentalism, like brainwashing, general dislike of all things progressive and blowing things up.

See how you defend yourself???
Just to your knowledge, many people are terrified from those goth and emos....."no offense taken pls" but some are having really weird looks make people don't give them a second look.

It is no longer a matter of 'good' and 'bad'. The traditional forms of clothing concealing the whole body compromise security, that is what he was trying to point out. No need for the drama.

Whatever you wanna call it, call it.

but who gives a damn about you?

That's not my problem if you don't value your woman! Thanks for your politeness.

The focus is on freedom here. Recognition of the fact that some women want to be perceived as capable adults who are able to think for themselves. Yes, the thought of liberty may be intimidating, but I can assure you, it's an awesome thing. Oh, not to mention privacy.

I assure you, I don't feel my privacy violated in any way, Protection is different that controlling. I hope you can distinguish between those two.

Great. So, you are not subordinated to your family, but to your religious leaders. That makes it so, so, so much better and acceptable.

Neither what you call as "religious leader". No one can force me to do what I don't want to. I am following what I read in the Quran and what my religion is telling me.

Yes, because they usually don't end up dying or having to fear for their lives for the rest of their days. I'm sure you understand why this would be likely to invite criticism.

I already gave my imput on that thing about apostasy, I am not bothered to repeat myself again.

Oh, are you going to come up with some smart justification for executions of young persons now?

Would you tell me what exactly you mean?

You can only believe blindly. Information which you hold with justification (justified true belief), is knowledge. (no Gettier now plix) You believe some bollocks blindly.

That's your problem if you like to blindly judge people.

Ahaha, you've got to be taking the piss there. A guy two years ago when I was doing my university admission course stood up during introduction and declared that he would be going on a jihad once he is finished with university. Guess what happened! Nothing! He wasn't even taken off the course or anything. He was a convert. Must have been terrible for him to endure the laughter that followed such an outrageous statement, eh?

Good for him that it was safe for him to express himself like that, there are few places where people are tolerant. Nice how you generalized one case in the whole world.

Yeah, which makes it evident that Islam doesn't give a **** about human rights and liberties. It makes me sick, makes me want to become a 'serial apostate'.

Good luck for you! become whatever you want to.

Then you are ignorant. He is being polite there and showing a great deal of patience there.

I do respect him and some other people here too. Its not you who will teach me manners. Thanks for the insult by the way!

It is extremely hypocritical of you to be replying in such a fashion to a person taking a secular stance.

He pointed out a very good point, which I wanted him and everyone "including me and you" to apply.

People copulate and as a result offsprings are created. In order to be able to engage in such activities, or solely for the pleasure, people attempt to make themselves desirable to their targets. Now, excuse my vulgar wording, but who the **** in the right mind would want to bed a black duvet walking around?

Seriously man!! you really got a manner when it come to such issue and when replying to others in general!!!

Should I remind you of how common the teenage pregnancy is in your society? or maybe I should tell you how many kids there don't know who are their fathers? or maybe I should remind you of the abortion cases in the hospitals?.....just chose.

 

[Mycernius]

I've had a quick look over teenage pregnancies and although the US has one of the heighest in the world and the UK in Europe, the middle east has a higher rate than the UK and most of Europe. Niger has one of the heighest in the world.
File:Map-world-teenage-biological-mothers2002.svg - Wikipedia
Teenage pregnancy - Wikipedia
This is for women aged between 15 - 19.
When you consider that the age of consent in the UK is 16 and in the middle east it is a case of you must be married or aged from 16 to 18 it seems that Muslim women are just as good as western women at parting their legs, pardon the phrase.
Sexual consent
Abortion statistics for the middle east are difficult to find. It is legal in the UK, so there are no back street or unreported ones here, same goes for other countries where it is legal. It is very difficult to obtain abortion figures for countries where it is illegal. In almost most Islamic countries it is illegal except for Turkey.
File:Abortion Laws Map (2011).png - Wikipedia
So making comparisons about abortions are difficult.

 

[Tsuyoiko]

Because I don't expect myself travel from place to another without a guardian to offer the protection. Sorry but I am very precious to my family to be without a protection.

I also avoid travelling without accompaniment, because of anxiety. Just like your situation, that's beyond my control, and just like you I have come to terms with it and don't really mind at all. But I think the real reason you don't travel alone is not because you need protection, but because the rules say you mustn't.

Sure, Thats my right to cover myself rather than being a "public property" walking around as a pleasure for the eyes of men.

It's not a big deal, but I find it a bit sad that you think it's a bad thing to be "a pleasure for the eyes of men". I personally get a nice kick out of being noticed by men, although it never goes beyond a look and maybe a smile. As Derfel and Mycernius have mentioned, procreation is pretty much the point of existence, so it's quite normal to look and want to be looked at.

But come to think of it, Men desires on women is not like women desires men so the covered parts of the body won't be the same.

On what do you base this claim? I find every part of a man's body attractive, depending on the man of course! It would take nothing less than a burqa to ensure my head doesn't get turned, and even then, some men have really sexy eyes ;-)

Just to your knowledge, many people are terrified from those goth and emos....."no offense taken pls" but some are having really weird looks make people don't give them a second look.

This is pure prejudice and bigotry.

Protection is different that controlling. I hope you can distinguish between those two.

Can you really claim that every time you go out you're in such danger that it would be impossible for you to go without protection?

Should I remind you of how common the teenage pregnancy is in your society? or maybe I should tell you how many kids there don't know who are their fathers? or maybe I should remind you of the abortion cases in the hospitals?.....just chose.

Mycernius has cast doubt on this claim. But even if you were right, the ills of our society are an acceptable price to pay for our freedoms.

 

[Hezam]

I want to add an important point,The woman can go out without Mahram But with his permission,And she can travel without Mahram in time less than 24 hours witch is A day and night.
Not with someone else but in trains,Plane,Ship.
Hope you undertsand,sorry for my bad English.
( Mahram is Males of her immediate family to whom a woman cannot be married, such as a father, brother, or a married uncle, who are allowed to be a woman's husban )

 

[Hime]

Mycernius, sure there are teenage pregnancies cases in the Middle east and other Islamic countries but its not dealt with as a major problem as it is in the West.

It's not a big deal, but I find it a bit sad that you think it's a bad thing to be "a pleasure for the eyes of men". I personally get a nice kick out of being noticed by men, although it never goes beyond a look and maybe a smile. As Derfel and Mycernius have mentioned, procreation is pretty much the point of existence, so it's quite normal to look and want to be looked at.

Yeah but I want to be noticed for my intelligence, personality, knowledge...not because of my body or the way I dress. I wanna be looked at as a human not as a model.

On what do you base this claim? I find every part of a man's body attractive, depending on the man of course! It would take nothing less than a burqa to ensure my head doesn't get turned, and even then, some men have really sexy eyes ;-)

Believe me its not always the case, both genders are attractive to the other but not at the same level. Well, it can be different from person to another, but in general I don't feel that way.

This is pure prejudice and bigotry.

I didn't mean any offense, but some of them who are extreme and even do some surgeries on their looks are really scary.

Can you really claim that every time you go out you're in such danger that it would be impossible for you to go without protection?

Of course NO!!! I cant imagine myself going to the university with someone or go and visit a friend where I can walk to her home.

But there are some places where I really can't go alone, I even asked my brother if he wanna drop me in a mall or something to come with me. It depend on the place I am going to like if it was a place where there is a crowd of people.

 

[RolandtheHeadless]

"I wanna be looked at as a human not as a model."

Most women in the US would not feel treated as a human adult if they needed permission of some mahram before they could go anywhere. Cultural differences, I guess.

 

[Haruspex]

See how you defend yourself???
Just to your knowledge, many people are terrified from those goth and emos....."no offense taken pls" but some are having really weird looks make people don't give them a second look.

Firstly, I'm not defending myself. It is only something I have mentioned by the way. Now, I didn't want to you misunderstand and think I'm trying to threaten you or anything. Also, you should have understood what I implied: that 'scary' is relative. A person of a more stoical disposition, or indeed with any stoicism, would not find me scary in the least.

And may I also add, I don't look like an emo or goth haha.

Whatever you wanna call it, call it.

That is not an answer and it does not constitute anything.

That's not my problem if you don't value your woman! Thanks for your politeness.

I value women to the extent that they demonstrate some traces of personality and individuality. Indeed, I value people, in general, to this same extent be they male or female. Women who acquisce silently to being lowered to the position of cattle don't really impress me. Defiance is ofter referred to as a fault, when in truth without defiance we would be very much like ants: greatly efficient in routine tasks but devoid of the creative drive that leads to innovations and breakthroughs in all areas.

I assure you, I don't feel my privacy violated in any way, Protection is different that controlling. I hope you can distinguish between those two.

You have very little privacy. Whether you feel it is violated or not is of no relevance. Also, you are not being protected as there is nothing to be protected from, so you're merely acting in accordance with whatever bollocks you are acting in accordance with. It was imposed upon you.

Neither what you call as "religious leader". No one can force me to do what I don't want to. I am following what I read in the Quran and what my religion is telling me.

Really? So if you don't want to, you'll not die while attempts are made at stoning you to death (in your view unsuccessfully) because you've violated some ridiculous nonsensical teaching of a religion possessive of the same qualities?

Would you tell me what exactly you mean?

I mean what I have expressed. That is what I mean exactly.

That's your problem if you like to blindly judge people.

How does that constitute relevant answer?

Good for him that it was safe for him to express himself like that, there are few places where people are tolerant. Nice how you generalized one case in the whole world.

Oh my, drama is upon is. Suppose that I enter a room reserved for women in a radical Islamic country in an advanced state of undress. I'd probably be put to death or something, whereas the guy in the example expressed his desire to go and kill people when the time comes and had nothing done to him.

Just take a look at this article. Tell you what, my mates from Bahrain think that fundamentalist people together form a huge ******* joke. What can I say, your fellow Muslims facepalm at your sight.

I do respect him and some other people here too. Its not you who will teach me manners. Thanks for the insult by the way!

Who's talking about respect? It's more about not making a fool of you by talking past others. As for what you regard as an insult, it is merely what your words evince.

Seriously man!! you really got a manner when it come to such issue and when replying to others in general!!!

Should I remind you of how common the teenage pregnancy is in your society? or maybe I should tell you how many kids there don't know who are their fathers? or maybe I should remind you of the abortion cases in the hospitals?.....just chose.

Yeah, I probably have bad manners. The rest of the sane people in this thread are trying to reason with you and I will readily admit that they're much, much kinder than I am. In fact, they're kind. However, let that not fool you into believing that they're taking whatever you say seriously. Kindness and patience does not indicate accord.

Teenage pregnancy? Tough. As Tsuyoiko pointed it out before me, Mycernious already dispatched that claim.

Kids who don't know their fathers? They're like swarming the place. That is exactly the reason I have not met one yet.

Yeah but I want to be noticed for my intelligence, personality, knowledge...not because of my body or the way I dress. I wanna be looked at as a human not as a model.

Your look is an incidence of your personality. Plus I'm sure you don't want to play the marital slot machine and end up with some hideous abomination Quasimodo would pale in comparison to.

Believe me its not always the case, both genders are attractive to the other but not at the same level. Well, it can be different from person to another, but in general I don't feel that way.

Is that some 'approved' Islamic psychology with the libidinous haraam bits cut out?

I didn't mean any offense, but some of them who are extreme and even do some surgeries on their looks are really scary.

They're not scary. You're scared of them.

Of course NO!!! I cant imagine myself going to the university with someone or go and visit a friend where I can walk to her home.

But there are some places where I really can't go alone, I even asked my brother if he wanna drop me in a mall or something to come with me. It depend on the place I am going to like if it was a place where there is a crowd of people.

You really can't go alone? I hope that is a 'can't' as to others' approval rather than a 'can't' to your own capacity, because if it's the latter, you've presented yet another bunch of bollocks.

 

[Mycernius]

I will play devils advocate briefly. Hime lives in the UAE and that is one of the more liberal countries on the Arabian Pennisular. Women are not forced to wear the Burqa or the full veil, unlike some of its neighbours. Although Sharia law is used, the country does try to encourage equality and women are allowed to drive. The courts are secular when dealing with criminal, civil and comericial problems and the Islamic courts are only used for family and religious disputes. Sharia courts are also used in some cases.
The country does recognise freedom of speech, although not as open as Europe, and if you critise islam you can end up going to jail. Recognises freedom of religion, although the countries offical religion is islam, you can be other faiths or even atheist, as Hime once pointed out in another thread.
This article on women's rights might help
Women in the UAE | UAE Embassy in Washington, DC
Hime is not repressed in her own country. islam might be the official religion and its customs are endemic in the country, hence the tradition of wearing the veil, but from what I have read, it is not forced, unlike its neighbours, Iran and Saudi Arabia being two of the worst offenders.
However despite the rights of women in this country their are still a major problem in islam as its attitude towards women. This attitude is more likely to be seen in the more repressive regimes and the ones that hold completely to islamic law. I doubt if there are many honour killings in the UAE, but it is prevelant in islamic countries and many women are still treated as property and as second class. Religion is supposed to have morals and it is to these so called morals that extreme muslim states stick to, and yet they have poor records in human and women rights. Which rather shows that morals are better coming from society rather than a dusty old tome written by a desert merchant 1400 years ago when such morals would be suitable for that time period. 7th century laws and morals do not belong in the 21st century.
If you think the codes that Mohammad came up with are bad for women in pre-islamic arabia women were treated as cattle. They had no rights. Mohammad at least introduced some protection and rights for them. Unfortunately they did not evolve as society progressed and now if the west critises them we are "attacking" Islam. No we are not we are questioning your moral codes because many Muslims don't seem to want to, especially if they are male. The only way to cahnge islam is for muslims themselves to stand up and go this is wrong. An Islamic reformation is needed.

 

[Hezam]

The only way to cahnge islam is for muslims themselves to stand up and go this is wrong. An Islamic reformation is needed.

Not unless the west stop the war against the Islamic world.
Belive me No one will listen to one word unless the west Especially the US stop the wars on us.
Maybe you think this is off topic but All muslims will say the same because how do you call for these small rights while you kill millions of people ?
What do you say ? i am talking to your Angel side by the way.

 

[RolandtheHeadless]

Hezam, your charges are unfair. The US and its allies intervened in Bosnia to protect Muslims.

 

[Hezam]

To what ? So did they protect them ?
On top of that i am talking about the middle East.
.........................................

Back to topic :
Forcing women to show their faces is against Human's rights,Right ?

 

[RolandtheHeadless]

It seems that some groups just like to play victims. It gets them attention.

No, I don't think it's a violation to require both women and men to show their faces in public for security purposes. But it is a violation of human rights to allow men to show their faces, while requiring women to hide theirs.

That is my Western view. But you do it how you want to in your own country.

 

[Mycernius]

Hezam there is not a war against the Islamic nations. Saudi Arabia buys weapons from the US, hardly the actions of a people at war. What there is is a war aginst moronic dicks who like to kill innocent people. Jus because they are islamic that certain media outlets try to liken it to an oppression of muslims. If they were hindus doing this then the media would try and protray it as a war agianst hinuduism, when it is just a minorty group causing the trouble.
Honestly if there was this so called war against islam that non-muslims countries would even let in muslims? Remember I live in a country with better press freedoms than yours.
File:Reporters Without Borders 2008 Press Freedom Rankings Map.svg - Wikipedia
and compare Saudi Arabia and the UK on this one
Worldaudit.org
So when it comes to reporting certain facts I have more access to the media than you do.
Then there is internet censorship. Saudi Arabia is known as an internet balck holes because of its censorship.
File:Internet blackholes.svg - Wikipedia
Of course you are going to believe an international comspiracy against Islam when the press and news sites in Saudi will heavily censor anything that goes against what they want you to know. That is one reason why, when you talk about wars against islam and how the west hates islam, that members regard your comment with some sceptism.

 

[Yukiko chan]

Like the way those emo, goth guys are walking around with there scary looks??? Don't you see this making people around them feel uneasy???

It seems you got my first point: Indeed, it's a matter of cultural difference. By the way, I've spent most of my teens frequenting goth circles, despite not being exactly one of them myself, and I feel more at ease with them than with other people.

If there are bad apples, this means that not everyone is bad..........hope you can distinguish between this and that.

I did not say that all Muslims were terrorists, or that every person wearing burqa is a suicide bomber. If some person wore a mask for, say, a festival, and were asked by a security agent to remove it they would most certainly answer "sure, no problem"; but when it's a person dressed in burqa, the situation gets complicated because, while being a necessity for security reasons, removing the dress, even partially, would be contrary to that persons right to practice their religion. Thus for such a dilemma to be avoided, it would be best if there were no burqa wearing people in the first place. The situation would've been critical if there were a direct order in your book stating "thou shalt only come out to street from head to toes in black bedight", or the like. Fortunately for Muslims it isn't the case: there's no Koranic verse that gives the exact form of the veil, and even some liberal thinkers have argued that the practice was endemic to some particular historical circumstances that are no longer present now. In other words, a Muslim woman has the choice not to wear a veil, to wear it and show her face and hands, or to cover everything, following which interpretation she "wishes" to follow.
From the French wikipedia:

Pendant longtemps, les légistes musulmans ont invariablement affirmé le caractère obligatoire du port du voile pour les femmes musulmanes nubiles de condition libre, en s'appuyant essentiellement sur l'interprétation du verset 31 de la sourate 34 - assez obscure - ainsi que sur le verset 59 de la sourate 33 - plus précis, mais mentionnant la jalâbiyya, forme de manteau ou de châle. Le débat et les interprétation portent généralement sur la partie à cacher qui relève de l'interprétation du concept coranique de 'awra, les parties à dissimuler au nom de la pudeur à la vue des autres, après la puberté. Pour les femmes nubiles, il s'agit pour la plupart des commentateurs du corps entier à l'exception du visage et des mains, parfois des pieds.
Translation: For a long time, Muslim lawgivers have invariably affirmed the compulsory character of veil wearing for nubile free (non slave) women, based essentially on the interpretation of verse 31 in sourate 34 (rather obscure), as well as verse 59 in sourate 33 (more accurate, but mentioning "jalâbiyya", a form of mantel and scarf). The debates and interpretations concern mostly the part to be concealed, which depends on the interpretation of the Koranic concept 'awra, i.e. the body parts to be hidden in the name of modesty, after puberty. For nubile women, most commentators have opted for concealing the whole body, except the face and hands, and sometimes the feet as well.

Plusieurs penseurs libéraux contemporains, spécialistes de l'islam, se sont employés à remettre en question l'obligation du hijab :
À partir des sources religieuses elles-mêmes: en contestant le sens donné par les traditionalistes à certains termes coraniques, dont aucun ne réfère explicitement aux cheveux, en rappelant que les trois versets du Coran utilisés par certains théologiens pour affirmer que le voile des femmes est une obligation ont été révélés pour remédier à des situations spécifiques: pour l'un imposer le respect de l'intimité et du domicile du prophète de l'islam Mahomet, l'autre aux femmes de Mahomet qui doivent s'habiller d'une certaine façon afin d'être reconnues et de ne point être importunées et la troisième au fait qu'il faut couvrir la poitrine (entre les seins); ou encore en remettant en cause l'authenticité du hadith invoqué par les traditionalistes à l'appui de leur démonstration; enfin en notant que, si elle existe, cette prescription n'est assortie, ni dans le Coran ni dans les hadith, d'aucune sanction.
À partir d'une analyse du contexte socio-culturel: les libéraux estiment que les Anciens ont tenu le voilement pour une évidence parce qu'ils baignaient dans un contexte socio-culturel où les normes vestimentaires d'inspiration bédouine étaient très ancrées. Si les oulémas qui leur ont succédé (depuis ceux des grandes écoles jurisprudentielles sunnites, chiites, ibadites jusqu'à ceux d'aujourd'hui) n'ont jamais songé à prendre leurs distances avec les Anciens sur cette question, c'est justement, selon les libéraux, parce que leur mode d'apprentissage et de pensée consiste à assimiler les arguments développés par ces Anciens sans les remettre en cause, alors même que l'évolution de nos sociétés contemporaines nécessiterait une réévaluation de la signification de cette norme vestimentaire.
De tous les éléments ci-dessus, ces libéraux déduisent que le voile n'est pas un principe fondamental de l'islam, et encore moins une prescription. On peut citer par exemple Iqbal Baraka (journaliste égyptienne), Muhammad Sa'îd al-'Ashmawi (ancien magistrat et spécialiste de droit musulman et comparé) ou encore Gamal El Banna (frère du fondateur des Frères musulmans). En France, le Dr Al Ajami, théologien musulman français, a publié dans un ouvrage intitulé Que dit vraiment le Coran une démonstration allant dans le même sens. En revanche, les libéraux s'accordent tout de même avec la majorité des théologiens sur l'obligation de bienséance dans les vêtements et de pudeur dans les attitudes (aussi bien pour les hommes que pour les femmes du reste).
Translation: Many contemporary liberal thinkers, specialized in Islamic studies, have worked on putting into question the obligatory aspect of hijab (veil):
- Based on religious sources: by contesting the meanings given to some Koranic terms by traditionalists, among which none refers explicitly to hair covering, noting that the three verses used by some theologians to confirm that hijab is obligatory for women were all revealed to remedy specific situations: one to impose respect for the intimacy and household of Muhammad the prophet of Islam, another to the prophet's wives who must dress in a certain manner so they can be recognized and not disturbed, and the third to order women to cover their chest (especially the cleavage); or again by putting into question the authenticity of the hadith invoked by traditionalists to support their demonstration; and finally, by noting that even if it exists, this prescription is not assorted, neither in Koran nor in hadith, by any form of sanction/punishment.
- Based on an analysis of the socio-cultural context: liberals consider that Ancient Arabs have taken veil as an evidence because they lived in a socio-cultural context where Bedouin-inspired clothing was strongly anchored. And if the oulemas who have succeeded them have never thought of taking their distances from the Ancients' position on this matter, it is precisely, according to liberals, because their method of learning and thought consisted in assimilating the arguments developed by the Ancients without putting them into question, whereas the evolution of our contemporary society demands a reevaluation of dressing norms.
Following the above elements, liberals deduce that veil wearing is not a fundamental principle of Islam, and much less a prescription. Examples of liberal thinkers: Iqbal Baraka (Egyptian journalist), Muhammad Sa'îd al-'Ashmawi (ex-magistrate and specialist of Islamic law), and Gamal El Banna (brother of the founder of Muslim Brotherhood). In France, Dr. Al Ajami, a French Muslim theologian has published a book entitled "Que dit vraiment le Coran" (What does the Koran really say?) in which he makes a demonstration in the same sense. However, liberals agree with the majority of theologians on the strict necessity of propriety in clothing and modesty in attitude (both for men and women).

Because I don't expect myself travel from place to another without a guardian to offer the protection. Sorry but I am very precious to my family to be without a protection.

As Derfel said, this is not about you personally. If a man or woman feels insecure and wants to be accompanied, I see no harm in that. But here we're not speaking of some particular circumstances, or some person with paranoid tendencies. This is about a systematic and organized denial of a basic freedom to a category of people (women), purported by a strongly influential authority.

If that is what you got from the Media then I am fine with this..........but Its me who chose to wear the face veil, and if my family said there is no need to it, I will not obey them.

No, that's not what I saw in the media, it was just a hypothesis, based on my readings on Islamic societies. In any society, a number of choices are given to the individual implicitly concerning almost any aspect of their life (clothing, culinary taste, etc...) which constitute norms. Anything beyond them would be considered abnormal, and depending on situations, the individual would be punished (by being ridiculed for example) for disregarding those norms. The freer the individual is, the greater the space for his creativity and talents to emancipate becomes; though at some point, freedom could turn into anarchy... my remark concerning Islamic societies (generally speaking) is that they put too many restrictions on individual freedom, and even when the government is relatively liberal, society plays the watchman role.

When I spoke of the "man", I was not referring necessarily to a male human being. The "man" is the symbol of all patriarchal authorities, that were all created by men, mostly for the advantage of men. Just as an example, when speaking of Heaven, the Koran mentions "beautiful virgin women" as a reward for men, but why does it never mention "beautiful virgin men" as a reward for women? Even in Heaven (assuming that such a place exists) women are treated like second class citizens...

Are they preventing birds to fly freely? or spreading smoke around? or maybe spreading nuclear wastes

Don't know if you get the meaning of visual pollution...

Visual pollution is the term given to unattractive and man-made visual elements of a vista, a landscape, or any other thing that a person does not feel comfortable to look at. Visual pollution is an aesthetic issue, referring to the impacts of pollution that impair one's ability to enjoy a vista or view. The term is used broadly to cover visibility, limits on the ability to view distant objects, as well as the more subjective issue of visual clutter.

I guess Its not you who decide what is useful or not for Muslims.

I did not decide, I simply suggested following a reasoning. I would've hoped to see your counter argument on that matter...

Even those other religions are attacked, but not as much as Islam.

Well, both our statements are mere personal impressions anyway. One of us, or both of us, could be biased because of our cultural surroundings and our life experiences. But one thing stands, there's much more room for criticism of religions in the Occident than there is in the Islamic world.

May you should browse more through the channels to get what I meant.

I'm not much of a TV person; I get most of the news from the Internet. But again I only objected to your use of the word "careful". How do you know that they are "careful" to "attack" Islam? In fact, with the attention your religion sparked, mainly caused by the extremist side of Islam, your can only expect it to be one of the main subjects of discussion nowadays. But this doesn't mean that:

1/ It's the only religion or topic of controversy. By the way, the belief that one's religion/ideology/culture is the center of attention/discussion/conspiracy, or that it tends to be so, or should be so, is called idiocentrism.

2/ That those who discuss your religion would necessarily echo your preconceived idea about it. In fact, I think you should expect more criticism (and sometimes insults) than eulogy, from people belonging to alternative cultures. I know that many Muslims believe that the message of their religion is universal, but I think there are many elements suggesting the contrary, i.e. that Islam favors some cultural perspectives over other possibilities, without any clear justification...

And as I said, I don't believe on what I believe blindly.

Again I would've hoped to see a proof of that, i.e. an explanation on how you generally proceed to hold a certain idea as true, and another as false...

Seriously? I think you need to listen to some converts and see how they are suffering and struggling in hiding their faiths from their families before you say anything.

Any web sources?

A whole another topic, but just for the sake of the discussion, Islam is not a game where you can enter and leave whenever you want. If you are 100% sure that you wanna be a Muslim then thats it. Otherwise there is no compulsion in Religion as it stated in the Quran.
There is no compulsion in religion. The right direction is henceforth distinct from error. And he who rejecteth false deities and believeth in Allah hath grasped a firm handhold which will never break. Allah is Hearer, Knower. (2:256)

First, it seems you have taken only one of two cases: there are those who convert to Islam from another religion/ideology indeed, but also those who were raised Muslim and decided at some point of their lives that Islam wasn't suitable for them. People who belong to the first category don't have a problem most of the time. They most probably belonged to a community that granted them freedom of religion, and can always go back to their original position (or another one) and be protected by their community. But people of the second category didn't choose to be born in a Muslim community, nor did they choose to be brought up as Muslims. Even as children, they were labeled "Muslim children" without them understanding what it means to be Muslim in the first place. I think that once people become conscious and responsible for their own choices, they should be granted full freedom to opt for any ideology/religion/life style which they believe is adequate for them. And nobody knows how a certain religion will affect their lives before they try it for several years at least...

If Islam believes itself to be the absolute truth, then why is it afraid to let some "ignorant" and "foolish" apostates express themselves? Why wouldn't it try to "reason" with them and convince them of its "righteousness" rather than kill them? I see here simply the attitude of a despotic system trying to impose its own conception of reality on people, and eliminating all possible alternatives... maybe because deep down it knows that there are alternatives; it knows that existing outside of, beyond, and without that system, normally and happily is possible...

I can't be bothered to read it as I am seeing you doing this intentionally to provoke me. Thanks!

Provoking is not my method, nor is it my intention. I've suggested that blog written in your mother language (I presume) to you, so you can have a better idea about the concept of "freethinking". It would help you understand the nuance between "attacking" and "criticizing", as well as other basic notions that we freethinkers often use... though I made two important remarks: first, that you may find it offensive from your standpoint (but I don't think that it is intended to be so); second, that I do not agree with everything written in that blog. But it's up to you to decide whether you want to read it or not anyway.

Very nice!! Same thing goes with you. I hope you are applying the same principles on yourself.

I do my best...

 

[Emoni]

This thread is painful to even look at...

I'm definitely sticking to the real world. This is reminiscent of Sci-fi nerds talking about who is better, Kirk or Picard, and going on comparisons about their exploits... only this argument is actually for some reason seen as REAL and threatens the lives of billions of people due to this made om insanity.

Doubts on islam? Good, now start doubting all the other magic crap you can't and never have seen.

 

[Yukiko chan]

This thread is painful to even look at...
I'm definitely sticking to the real world. This is reminiscent of Sci-fi nerds talking about who is better, Kirk or Picard, and going on comparisons about their exploits... only this argument is actually for some reason seen as REAL and threatens the lives of billions of people due to this made om insanity.
Doubts on islam? Good, now start doubting all the other magic crap you can't and never have seen.

It may not be real to you, the same as giraffe people in Africa, and their sense of aesthetics, sound like fairy tails for most of us. But for hundreds of millions of people around the world, this is a real discussion. We are speaking of one of the oldest and most influential religions nowadays, which has almost 1.5 billion followers, yet has never undergone any serious reform in modern history. It's not just a bunch of crazy people with weird beliefs like Jehovah Witnesses...

 

[Haruspex]

This thread is painful to even look at...

I'm definitely sticking to the real world. This is reminiscent of Sci-fi nerds talking about who is better, Kirk or Picard, and going on comparisons about their exploits... only this argument is actually for some reason seen as REAL and threatens the lives of billions of people due to this made om insanity.

Doubts on islam? Good, now start doubting all the other magic crap you can't and never have seen.

I concur.

It may not be real to you, the same as giraffe people in Africa, and their sense of aesthetics, sound like fairy tails for most of us. But for hundreds of millions of people around the world, this is a real discussion. We are speaking of one of the oldest and most influential religions nowadays, which has almost 1.5 billion followers, yet has never undergone any serious reform in modern history. It's not just a bunch of crazy people with weird beliefs like Jehovah Witnesses...

Real discussion or not, what is being discussed is not real. Debates centred around beliefs do not make the world and reality exists regardless of whether a bunch of rabid fundamentalists deny it and regardless of whether they want to adorn it with the creations of their minds. Debates as to scripture and faith are vacuous as they possess no true subject matter in the sense that they deal with misrepresentations of facts.

 

[Yukiko chan]

Real discussion or not, what is being discussed is not real. Debates centred around beliefs do not make the world and reality exists regardless of whether a bunch of rabid fundamentalists deny it and regardless of whether they want to adorn it with the creations of their minds. Debates as to scripture and faith are vacuous as they possess no true subject matter in the sense that they deal with misrepresentations of facts.

Well, I don't know what you exactly mean by "real", but to me, if these discussions have any possible incidence on reality, I would consider them as real.

Yup, I would've preferred if such topics were the appanage of anthropologists studying some old forms of human beliefs. But here we are, in the 21st century, still entangled with one of the oldest systems humanity created, and a great portion of the human population is unable to surpass it, like somebody who still uses the first 8086 microprocessor just because they "like" it, instead of moving on to a more powerful µp.
Religious stories to me are no more than myths, but to the guy next door, to my sister, to the suicide bomber who blew himself up down the road, they are real, and they influence my existence one way or another. Which is why I need to discuss them and understand them. God is dead perhaps, but we still need to fight his shadow...

EDIT: by the way, as far a this topic is concerned, we were mainly debating the practices deriving from Islamic beliefs, not the beliefs themselves (which were brought into discussion occasionally).

 

[Haruspex]

Well, I don't know what you exactly mean by "real", but to me, if these discussions have any possible incidence on reality, I would consider them as real.

Yup, I would've preferred if such topics were the appanage of anthropologists studying some old forms of human beliefs. But here we are, in the 21st century, still entangled with one of the oldest systems humanity created, and a great portion of the human population is unable to surpass it, like somebody who still uses the first 8086 microprocessor just because they "like" it, instead of moving on to a more powerful µp.
Religious stories to me are no more than myths, but to the guy next door, to my sister, to the suicide bomber who blew himself up down the road, they are real, and they influence my existence one way or another. Which is why I need to discuss them and understand them. God is dead perhaps, but we still need to fight his shadow...

EDIT: by the way, as far a this topic is concerned, we were mainly debating the practices deriving from Islamic beliefs, not the beliefs themselves (which were brought into discussion occasionally).

The discussions are indeed real, but vacuous. Their subject-matter is nonexistent. Or rather, to word it correctly, there is no subject-matter.

We would be better off if we brought the whole lie-machine down. Religious tolerance is a bunch of nonsense. I think the correct understanding of the issue would be that Islam is putting forward lies. If this does not invite criticism, suspicion and doubt, there is something amiss, as Emoni has pointed it out before me. I am much of the same mind. I don't have the kindness and gallantry to offer patience and understanding when the whole institution can be defeated on formal grounds. To reword what I've said: Islam is a lie and that alone warrants that Islam with all its lies be 'resolved'. I advocate a more aggressive stance in defence of all the people who must suffer under such an oppressive belief system.

You cannot evaluate practices in a vacuum. Whether it is justified is a very important aspect of any practice.

 

[Tsuyoiko]

We would be better off if we brought the whole lie-machine down. Religious tolerance is a bunch of nonsense. I think the correct understanding of the issue would be that Islam is putting forward lies.

Whilst I agree with you that the beliefs of Islam - and all other religions - are untrue, I wouldn't call them "lies". I think "lie" implies volition, that the telling of the untruth was an intentional deception. I don't think that's necessarily the case with religion. Sure, some religious leaders must know that they're spouting bullshit and do so with some questionable intent in mind. But I think many, if not most, genuinely believe in the rubbish they are espousing. They are therefore delusional rather than dishonest.

I advocate a more aggressive stance in defence of all the people who must suffer under such an oppressive belief system.

I'm also in some measure impatient to see an end to religion and the oppression it causes. However, I just don't see any way forward in practice, other than letting general education take its course. To this end, discussions like this serve an important purpose. It was largely as a result of discussions on this very forum that I was finally able to let go of my belief in god.

You advocate a more aggressive stance, but exactly what do you have in mind?