Does an outsider have a chance?

[AmericanBF]

Greetings!

I have spent a while reading the many articles here and I am getting a little worried. I have been dating a wonderful woman from Tokyo and after reading some of the posts and the articles on culture I am not sure I can keep up. So many of the things about her that I have found puzzling I can see written here. Sorry, but I cannot at the moment be more specific due to information overload. I will try and post some details later. From what I gather, most of you guys will be familar with my situation. So I pose the question, can this gap be traversed? I mean for the most part things are fine, but with issues concerning her family, who by the way, so not know about me because of there conservative views etc., I get a distinct feeling from my gf that I am an outsider and that I will never be one of them. Of course she has not directly stated this, but it is something I feel is being comunicated indirectly. I guess I would be happy to hear of anyone's experience that is similar to mine and especially your thoughts/frustrations and basically how you deal with this.

thanks...

 

[nice gaijin]

There are some families that may never accept someone who is different as one of them. This kind of family can be found all over the world. When dating someone from another culture, you have to accept the possibilitiy that her family might be like this.

You should decide how serious about this girl you are, and whether a non-accepting family is enough to discourage you from dating her. If she's serious about trying to make this work and you aren't, you are stringing her along. If you are serious and she isn't, you are wasting your time. If neither of you are serious, enjoy yourselves but don't have any delusions. If you are both serious about this, you can make it work but I won't promise that it'll be easy.

There are many stories out there. Some people have charmed their partner's families, some people have made asses of themselves and had to make up for their mistakes, some people have destroyed any chance of acceptance they had, and some people never had any chance to begin with. As with everything else, it depends on who is involved. Be honest with yourself about how far you're willing to take this relationship, and let that decision reflect upon how you act with her family.

 

[Hachiro]

My wife is Japanese and we've been together a long time now. There are still times that the two of us get into arguments and discussions about this or that, that are related to cultural differences. But it's really no big deal.

The biggest thing you should try to remember is the need to communicate, in any relationship that is important but it becomes more so when you are marrying someone from a different culture. After that flexibility and an ability to accept things that are "different".

Dont overload your partner with, "Why this....?" or "How come Japanese do that?" all the time. It would/might make you sound like you are critisizing the people and the country, even though all you want is to know or learn.

Oh and also remember she is (probably/maybe) also going through the same things you are, worrying about culture issues and such.

Lastly, you are an outsider, just as I was and still am.

 

[Mikawa Ossan]

When I was engaged, I never once felt like an outsider vis a vis her family.

I remember when things with her started going bad. Her father took me aside and told me that it was up to me to fix things. I had never had a father say something like that to me before. He wanted me to fix things. He wanted me to stay in the family.

When I first met her parents, I thought of them as her parents. Parents who I just incidentally didn't share a language with. The fact that they were Japanese was inconsequential to me at the time, as it is to this day. I don't know how they initially felt about me, but they always treated me just like a son after the "shogi incident".

My younger brother, who married a girl from Taiwan, has similar stories to mine, which leads me to believe that although there will always be a certain number of people that will never accept you on whatever basis, the main things are attitude, humility, and acceptance on your part. Remember, you must accept them for who they are if you want them to do the same for you.

 

[Mike Cash]

Nothing is going to be traversed so long as she is keeping your existence a secret from her family. There's not much point worrying about the remaining thousand miles of your trip when she shows so much reluctance about taking the first step.

 

[ex-gaijin]

I think you shouldn`t worry so much. It really depends on many factors. My experience wasn`t great, her brother was scared/ashamed to speak to me and kept hiding upstairs when I was around.

I asked her many times to explain this weird attitude but I always obtained vague answers.

After a while we broke up. Nothing related to her family though, simply it didn`t work out between the two of us...

Some other friends of mine are happily married to japanese girls.

However, you will always be different, an outsider and they will never allow you to become entirely part of them. But this is Japan mate...love it or hate it!

A prof of Japanese History at Uni used to say: Everyone can become american, english, italian, french, spanish, chinese, iranian...either culturally or legally. NO ONE CAN BECOME JAPANESE.

 

[Mikawa Ossan]

However, you will always be different, an outsider and they will never allow you to become entirely part of them. But this is Japan mate...love it or hate it!
A prof of Japanese History at Uni used to say: Everyone can become american, english, italian, french, spanish, chinese, iranian...either culturally or legally. NO ONE CAN BECOME JAPANESE.

Becoming Japanese is beside the point, don't you think? Becoming part of the family is the only thing that concerns me, personally. From personal experience, I know for a fact that it can be done, just like anywhere else.

 

[AmericanBF]

First of all, thanks to all of you who posted!

I really like the advice above about not always asking "why this?" etc. I do have a tendancy for that, namely asking thousands of questions in an effort to understand. I have noticed that sometimes she can become hostile to this, especially if I ask very pointed questions that require thought and reflection on her part. She only becomes hostile in issues of Japan, nothing else. I guess that's the scary part for me. She is truly wonderful and we have very engaging conversations about so many things. But if I question the behavior or attitudes of Japanese the gloves are off! Maybe that statement above is correct, the one about never becoming Japanese. Not that I really want to, I just love human interaction and behavior and because I am in a relationship with this girl I just want to understand her as much as possible.
Anyay, thanks for the responses and I will see what happens. I enjoy the board here so I will continue to lurk....

 

[ex-gaijin]

Becoming Japanese is beside the point, don't you think? Becoming part of the family is the only thing that concerns me, personally. From personal experience, I know for a fact that it can be done, just like anywhere else.

It is....maybe! Some people do have the tendency to "wannabe japanese" by getting married to a japanese girl.

Also, if you read my post...it clearly says that some of my friends are happily married to japanese women...
It`s implicit that they became part of the family, I think...

 

[Mike Cash]

However, you will always be different, an outsider and they will never allow you to become entirely part of them.

And you base that on your own marriage, I suppose?

Personally, I've been married to the same woman for over 20 years now, live close enough to be handy but distant enough to be comfortable, and have never experienced the sort of xenophobic churlishness you attribute to every single group of Japanese in-laws in the country. In fact, I love my mother-in-law because the dear old soul worries about me more than her daughter does.

 

[Mike Cash]

It is....maybe! Some people do have the tendency to "wannabe japanese" by getting married to a japanese girl.
Also, if you read my post...it clearly says that some of my friends are happily married to japanese women...
It`s implicit that they became part of the family, I think...

The implicitness of that message was more than a little marred by "However, you will always be different, an outsider and they will never allow you to become entirely part of them."

If you want people to clearly understand your writing, you have to write clearly. Sweeping generalizations tend to cloud the minds of reasonable people.

 

[ex-gaijin]

Nope, I don`t base that on my own marriage...
I`m not married for now. It`s just a feeling I have about Japanese people...
As European maybe, I expect a bit more in personal relationships.
For me, Europe and Japan are on the same latitude but not on the same planet.

 

[Mike Cash]

Nope, I don`t base that on my own marriage...
I`m not married for now. It`s just a feeling I have about Japanese people...

Then it would be better, perhaps, not to couch uninformed personal opinion in the form of categorical statements of fact.

 

[ex-gaijin]

I do have Japanese fiance, mate...
Also, there is a reason why I`m not in Japan anymore. Probably for you americans is easier to get settled in Japan. Europeans DO have a culture and it`s difficult for us to repress it and suddenly become Japanese...

 

[Mike Cash]

I do have Japanese fiance, mate...
Also, there is a reason why I`m not in Japan anymore. Probably for you americans is easier to get settled in Japan. Europeans DO have a culture and it`s difficult for us to repress it and suddenly become Japanese...

I'll take that as having been meant as a humorous insult. There's no way you could possibly be stupid enough to have meant that in earnest.

 

[Han Chan]

I have been married to a japanese women for 7 years. I find that the fact that you are right from the beginning concious about that there are cultural differences is actually good. As is any relationship communication is the key to resolving problems. Knowning that you are different makes both parties acutely aware of the need to talk, explain and communicate is essential.

My experience is that japanese themselves are also very different, but often not so aware of that fact.

Some in-law families will cause some trouble, but for example my in-laws liked me right from the start. Obviously I have tried to be a good son-in-law, but mainly I think that I am blessed with very openminded in-laws. I know that some forigners do have problems getting accepted in the beginning, but mostly even those end up beeing accepted.

 

[undrentide]

I have noticed that sometimes she can become hostile to this, especially if I ask very pointed questions that require thought and reflection on her part. She only becomes hostile in issues of Japan, nothing else. I guess that's the scary part for me.

Hello AmericaBF,

Since I don't know you or your girlfriend personally and I don't know exactly what conversation made her upset, I could be wrong - but there's one possibility that came to my mind.

If she turned hostile only when you asked questions about Japan or Japanese, that could be because she has taken them not as questions but rather criticism or even accusation. (Which of course is not what you intended, you asked questions simply because you want to understand.)

One of the features of Japanese tradition is to value "harmony" - that means we want to try to avoid conflicts as far as possible. That means there's a tendency to avoid discussion. (Not that all the people avoid discussion, but it's a general "tendency" compared with other culture where discussion and criticism are more encouraged.) Arguments tend to be regarded as conflicts and opposed comments often taken as personal offence.

It requires subtle approach when you see this sign. For instance, if you find people's reaction is very different from what you expect in your culture,
Direct questions such as "why do they do this?" "why they don't do that?" can be replaced more indirect question such as "I got this reaction, did I do something wrong?" "when people do that, what does that mean?" "when in this and this situation, what am I expected to do?" etc.
(Sorry, I cannot think of good examples, I hope you can see what I'm trying to say... )

If the above is not the case, sorry, it's only my assumption so please disregard it.

 

[Hachiro]

It requires subtle approach when you see this sign. For instance, if you find people's reaction is very different from what you expect in your culture,
Direct questions such as "why do they do this?" "why they don't do that?" can be replaced more indirect question such as "I got this reaction, did I do something wrong?" "when people do that, what does that mean?" "when in this and this situation, what am I expected to do?" etc.
(Sorry, I cannot think of good examples, I hope you can see what I'm trying to say...

undrentide, are you Japanese per chance? From reading your post, and I apologize if I am wrong I get the impression that you are.

That is a very astute and helpful observation. I found out through experience, trial and error....many error's in fact, that to ask questions or look for information at an oblique angle usually is much more effective in getting to the root of problems in interpersonal relationships here.

Many times I experienced people "beating around the bush" and got very frustrated with the indirectness in their responses.

Looking back on it now, many of the "mistakes" that I made here in dealing with people on both personal and professional levels came from a lack of understanding and information. That information is now readily available through forums like this. When I first came to Japan there was no internet, so everything was by trial and error.

 

[undrentide]

Yes, Hachiro, I'm Japanese. That's why I posted here, as so far there's no coments by a Japanese female to this thread yet.

For me, JREF is also very interesting as I can see many different opinions from different points of view. It often sheds new light on the things we believe are common sense or things taken granted in our dailylife.

 

[Hachiro]

Yes, Hachiro, I'm Japanese. That's why I posted here, as so far there's no coments by a Japanese female to this thread yet.

For me, JREF is also very interesting as I can see many different opinions from different points of view. It often sheds new light on the things we believe are common sense or things taken granted in our dailylife.

Thank you, imo your opinions and thoughts should help to shed more light on how a Japanese person feels or thinks about situations like this and others that arise from a "gaijin's" point of view.

 

[Maciamo]

I'll take that as having been meant as a humorous insult. There's no way you could possibly be stupid enough to have meant that in earnest.

Maybe ex-gaijin was implying that Europeans have a deeper rooted culture than Americans. I mean, the US is a cultural melting pot that has been quite uniformised by government propaganda (the American Dream, patriotism, Hollywood stories of good vs evil that always end well...). In Europe, you can see strong cultural gaps just by crossing a linguistic border, so that people have a quite different lifestyle and behaviour just 20km apart from each others. These cultural differences go back to centuries, well before the USA existed, and hardly change with time (well, they evolve, but all at the same time, keeping the differences) because they are so deep-rooted. Here in Brussels, they have been planting "May trees" for the 698th year in a row this year ! With such longstanding traditions, Europeans obviously perceive culture differently than Americans. That doesn't mean there is no American culture, it's just that its impact on people's mind and behaviour is very different.

 

[Mikawa Ossan]

We can't ignore admin?

Let me check....

Edit: If you try to ignore admin, an error message pops up. Apparently admin is off-limits.

 

[GodEmperorLeto]

I'll take that as having been meant as a humorous insult. There's no way you could possibly be stupid enough to have meant that in earnest.

I f'ing hope so. I had half a mind to talk about having kings and pretentions to nobility not being much of a culture in my opinion, as well as pointing out how Lt. Col. Arthur Fremantle told Gen. Longstreet during the Civil War, "You really are just transplanted Englishmen." Seeing as ex-gaijin is in England, it just begs the question as to whose fault it is we have no culture?

I'm Japanese.

Your English is very good.

That's why I posted here, as so far there's no coments by a Japanese female to this thread yet.

Where's Kyoko?

One of the features of Japanese tradition is to value "harmony" - that means we want to try to avoid conflicts as far as possible. That means there's a tendency to avoid discussion.

This is one of the biggest cultural gaps Americans have to bridge, because we encourage debate. Many of my foreign friends were shocked to see me at a coffee shop with four or five other buddies, and all of us were arguing over politics, pointing fingers, getting emotional, pounding the table. What shocked them even more is how we shook hands, smiled, and said, "I'll see you tomorrow" when it was time to go home, and parted as friends anyway.

We are raised believing that conflict is a part of life, and should be handled properly. Social change in the United States has always been heralded by marches, protests, and other forms of confrontation, way back to the Boston Tea Party when we were still British colonists.

Conflict is also regarded as one of the ingredients of a healthy marriage, as long as compromises and agreements can be reached (hence the term "conflict resolution"). And there's the rub. If an American isn't discussing problems with their spouse, we believe something is dreadfully wrong. We are taught that bottling things up is unhealthy, and that if you keep ignoring problems, they will fester. If an American feels he/she has done something wrong to someone else, he/she will want to address it and resolve the issue, admitting guilt and asking forgiveness, or asking what can be done to prevent trouble in the future. To us, harmony is only superficial if there is chaos boiling beneath the surface, unseen. Dischord and harmony kind of have to co-exist, because without occasional dischord, the harmony can never grow strong.

Anyway, my point is that in an intercultural relationship/marriage, both sides are going to have to be patient and understanding on this score. Both need to understand how the other thinks. Both are going to have to get used to how the other approaches problems and try to meet somewhere in the middle. And sometimes both are going to have to step outside of their "comfort zone" and work in the other's system. No relationship is easy, they all take time, patience, energy, and understanding. But perserverence reaps rewards. Good luck, AmericanBF.

 

[ELECTRIC JAPAN]

Study the language by focusing on conversation only.
Realize you are a guest of the country.
Enjoy every moment.

 

[undrentide]

This is one of the biggest cultural gaps Americans have to bridge, because we encourage debate. Many of my foreign friends were shocked to see me at a coffee shop with four or five other buddies, and all of us were arguing over politics, pointing fingers, getting emotional, pounding the table. What shocked them even more is how we shook hands, smiled, and said, "I'll see you tomorrow" when it was time to go home, and parted as friends anyway.

Haha, I can imagine the astonishment on your foreign friends' faces.
Something like this and this

Conflict is also regarded as one of the ingredients of a healthy marriage, as long as compromises and agreements can be reached (hence the term "conflict resolution"). And there's the rub. If an American isn't discussing problems with their spouse, we believe something is dreadfully wrong. We are taught that bottling things up is unhealthy, and that if you keep ignoring problems, they will fester. If an American feels he/she has done something wrong to someone else, he/she will want to address it and resolve the issue, admitting guilt and asking forgiveness, or asking what can be done to prevent trouble in the future. To us, harmony is only superficial if there is chaos boiling beneath the surface, unseen. Dischord and harmony kind of have to co-exist, because without occasional dischord, the harmony can never grow strong.

Maybe this is the point where the two different cultures (in this case American culture and Japanese one?) crash, if the two parties do not know or understand each other's culture.
I don't think one is better than another, but they really are different. And we can see each 'feature' from both sides.
For example:
*harmony
positive: avoiding confrontation brings us peace, one is able to get relaxed, and it is comfortable.
negative: valuing harmony and avoiding confrontation does not solve problems (when there's any), it won't disappear just because you don't look at it.
*conflicts, argument
positive: agruments and confrontation helps to specify what is the problem, it's a way leading to mutual understanding and solution.
negative: constant questioning, argument, and confrontation bring us tense, it's tiring and sometimes even exhausting.

Anyway, my point is that in an intercultural relationship/marriage, both sides are going to have to be patient and understanding on this score. Both need to understand how the other thinks. Both are going to have to get used to how the other approaches problems and try to meet somewhere in the middle. And sometimes both are going to have to step outside of their "comfort zone" and work in the other's system. No relationship is easy, they all take time, patience, energy, and understanding. But perserverence reaps rewards. Good luck, AmericanBF.

I do agree with you on the above points.
And I think efforts to make oneself understood are as important as efforts to understand the other party. One cannot explain too much when there're cultural differences...