Does anyone here think Japanese Men Treat their women like Crap?

[Navy Guy]

wow

Ok here is my 3 cents on this topic...
Frustrated Dave, I HAVE been barred from establishments due to me being gaigin, even with my Japanese wife right there with me. So yes it does happen, maybe you are the lucky guy... however the police have never hasseled me and in general I have not experienced any "racism". I remember we had another thread that broached this subject, what I find is that most establishments that do not like foreigners to come in is because they do not want to deal with any language or culture issues.. ie. didn't understand the pricing or the custom. So it is easier for them to just say no to foreigners. I have traveled throughout Japan and I have only seen these places where there is a high concentration of foreigners, and to be honest I think it has stemmed from a "few bad incidents".
Now onto the real topic,
There is still discrimination, but we find this everywhere. Just look at the differences in wages between men and women world wide and you still see it.
However there is another aspect to this in Japan that my wife has expressed to me, as a Japanese woman gets older / ages she is usually replaced in the work place by younger more asthetically pleasing women. Scoff at this if you want but I have seen it in action. My wife and her friends are in their late 30's and all of them have been "moved" or let go just to be replaced by a younger "more attractive" girl... the kawaii factor. It also becomes harder for the more mature women to find work...
Then there is the old stigma of the successful buisness man and his side action. I have had this conversation with my brother-in-law (an executive in Tokyo) and a few of his friends. Basically this is going out of style but it was/is not uncommon for a successful buisness man to be married with children but still have his "side action" in a little appartment across town. Basically it was/is a status symbol, not only is the executive successful enough to provide for his family but he can also take care of a "play thing". Most wives "knew/know" about this practice but did/do not say anything about it as long as this practice did/does not interfere with everyday life. However this is going by the way side in Japan's more Westernized society.
Overall I do not think that Japanese men treat their women badly, it may be different than what we as Westerners think of as proper treatment but none the less. As stated in prior posts, and most of us married to Japanese women can attest to this, a Japanese womans power is behind closed doors and not in the public eye. Whoa to you if you embarrass her in public, once you get home your ear is going to fall off. I can say without an doubt that it is my wife that runs "the show" in my house. As a final note of interest this is also true with Japanese couples from those that I know.

 

[plumblossom]

Have changed my mind about this one

When I first arrived to Japan I gave Japanese men the benefit of the doubt. Many of them are sexy (in a non-westernized, uniquely Japanese way); many of the younger men are great fathers and when you go the park on a Sunday it's mainly men there with their kids so the mothers can chill out.... But the more I live here the more I realize it is indeed a strictly patriarchal culture, moreso than I ever imagined.

This most definitely has contributed to the fact that Japanese women have been refusing to get married for sometime now, and Japan now has the lowest birthrate in the world. The women here look at their mothers' downtrodden lives and think "no thanks, not for me".

They know that in Japan a woman must CHOOSE between career and children, and just like Italian women, they're opting for financial independence over kids.

This just shows how obsolete patriarchies are. Some barbaric patriarchies actually force women to reproduce, but Japan is not as bad as that. But it is too patriarchal to convince women that having a child is a good life option. Countries such as Sweden and Iceland which support working mothers have a much higher birthrate.

THe elderly men who run the country are hand-wringing about this one. "What could it BE?" "Why don'T Japanese women want children?"" Their ignorance astounds me. Make motherhood bearable for women and they will reproduce. Force them to choose between babies and freedom and they'll choose the latter.

I also think the "Japanese women's power is behind closed doors" thing is bullshit.

Yes, Japanese men let their wives rule the roost at home... but this is because even strictly patriarchal countries like Japan understand that you have to allow women SOMETHING. OTherwize none of them are ever going to get married. So the society says "No, you can't have political or economic power or financial independance but we'll let you be a good little consumer and spend your husband's money and rule the home"
But let's be honest, who would choose to rule a prison cell of a house if they could rule society instead like men?
The creativity of Japanese women is stifled and their main (only?) outlet is shopping.
The Japanese women I'm friends with in their late twenties have no intention of marrying.

 

[RolandtheHeadless]

If two couples go somewhere in a car in America, the wife of the driver will normally sit next to him in the front seat; and the other couple will sit in the back seat.

In Japan, the men will sit in the front seat, and the women will sit in the back seat. Always, in my experience.

In the US office today, you don't dare ask your secretary to get you a cup of coffee; that would be sexist.

In Japan, the women in the office are always responsible for making and serving tea to the men -- even to male subordinates.

 

[Aino]

When I first arrived to Japan I gave Japanese men the benefit of the doubt.But the more I live here the more I realize it is indeed a strictly patriarchal culture, moreso than I ever imagined.

Ingrained male-chauvinistic ( Confucianism value thrives in MODERN Japan ~ a belief men are superior to women ) bend persists among Japanese men ~ lesser extent in younger generation ( 20's & 30's sonething ) Japanese males.

This most definitely has contributed to the fact that Japanese women have been refusing to get married for sometime now, and Japan now has the lowest birthrate in the world.

Over a decade ago ~ some of Japan's old guards labeled them [ parasitos ].

The creativity of Japanese women is stifled and their main (only?) outlet is shopping.

That's why there are handsome well-educated Western men find them unattractive ~ intellectually + emotionally void & materialistic.

 

[plumblossom]

"In Japan, the women in the office are always responsible for making and serving tea to the men -- even to male subordinates."
Yes, this week I was in an office and a woman not only made my male colleague and I some tea, but she KNELT on the floor as she handed it to us. This was not a ritzy hotel, just a ****** office. What is going on that the women are kneeling on the floor like that? They would never expect a man to kneel on the floor in an office setting, maybe only a waiter in a luxurious hotel.


"In Japan, the men will sit in the front seat, and the women will sit in the back seat. Always, in my experience."
That is interesting. I haven't noticed that, but I will look out for it. What I have noticed is that a lot more women drive here when their husband is in the car, whereas at home (the UK) it's the men who drive. I think the idea is that it's the woman's job to drive the man around in Japan i.e a chauffer. But at home it's sexist as well, because the idea is that women aren't to be trusted behind the wheel. You don'T hear many comments here about women being bad drivers like you do at home. All women drive in Japan.

 

[Mike Cash]

In Japan, the men will sit in the front seat, and the women will sit in the back seat. Always, in my experience.

I would bet any amount of money I have spent more hours in traffic in Japan than anybody else on this forum, and I must say that is the biggest crock of $hit I've ever heard spouted regarding Japan.

Are you talking about thirty or forty years ago or something? If you see a man up front and a woman in the back they're either both in their 70s (and even they both ride up front these days, as a general thing) or it is a mother sitting in the back with an infant or small children.

Somebody trot out that old chestnut about walking down the street drinking something now. We may as well get all the outdated and misinformed stereotypes out of the way while we're at it.

I'm surprised no one has pointed out the logical disconnect between the OP's seeming concern for Japanese women and his phrasing the question with a possessive pronoun.

 

[plumblossom]

I'm surprised no one has pointed out the logical disconnect between the OP's seeming concern for Japanese women and his phrasing the question with a possessive pronoun.

LOL, good point

 

[Aino]

Yes,this week I was in an office and a woman not only made my male colleague and I some tea,but she KNELT on the floor as she handed it to us. This was not a ritzy hotel, just a ****** office.

Was this in front of you and that Japanese male colleague sat in an office sofa or floor style office room ?

What is going on that the women are kneeling on the floor like that?

Kneeling is a tradition in Japan ~ still is degrading in serving manner

 

[plumblossom]

Was this in front of you and that Japanese male colleague sat in an office sofa or floor style office room ?

Yes, we were sitting opposite each other on office sofas in a Western-styled office. She brought the tea on a tray, knelt down before giving it to us. It was *too* subservient. As I said, this wasn't the Ritz. To be honest, I've got so used to this kind of thing now that I hardly noticed it. IT was only when my Japanese colleague kind of looked embarrassed that I thought "yes. what is this (very young) woman doing kneeling on the floor? ".(He has a European wife.)

 

[Aino]

Yes, we were sitting opposite each other on office sofas in a Western-styled office. She brought the tea on a tray, knelt down before giving it to us. It was *too* subservient.

Quite humiliating ~ more so to the eyes of Western ( particularly women ) people.But again ~ it's their tradition.

I remember there was one school punishment case of a Japanese elementary girl in mid-2000's caught the newspaper headline in Japan.The female teacher imposed strict Japanese custom ~ required her student to kneel down on the classroom floor and bow her head to the floor three or several times .There is Japanese word for this practice ~ I have seen it ( by the main female character ) in one Japanese TV drama.

 

[Mike Cash]

It would seem to me that whether it is humiliating or not can only be judged by the person performing the act. I rather strongly doubt that the lady serving the tea either found it humiliating or gave the kneeling bit a second thought. It is a more elegant and classy way of doing it than bending over. And let us keep in mind that Japan was (and still is) a culture that "lives on the floor". Do any of you knuckleheads realize just how common kneeling is in this country? Or even bowing in that position? There is nothing inherently humiliating or degrading about it.

For all you people who engage in what I find the totally absurd practice of "umbrage by proxy": Did any of you ever suggest that the guys get their own damned tea? Or did you just stand there silently? I think I can guess the answer to that. Yes, I have pointed out the guys could get their own damned tea...where I actually worked....and they have gotten up and done it themselves. Nothing is more annoying than indignant offended-by-proxy ninnies who have principles but lack the stones to speak up. May as well not have any principles for all the good they do you....or anyone else.

 

[RolandtheHeadless]

"Umbrage by proxy"? That's a good one. Maybe it will become one of the internet's stylish new terms. Kind of lends an intellectual air to the speaker, don't you think?

I'd say the one taking umbrage here is you. I don't see anyone else getting so upset that they have to resort to name-calling. "Knuckleheads" and "ninnies"? Maybe all that sitting in traffic is making you lose your cool.

I've talked to enough Japanese women who have worked at Japanese firms to know that tea-making for the office is a female task. The men seem to pay less attention to where their tea comes from. Some day you might want to trace the origin of that cup of tea that magically appears on your desk.

 

[Mike Cash]

I hardly need second-hand accounts of being employed in a Japanese workplace, Roland. Every last one of my coworkers is Japanese, and has been for quite a long time. I don't have a desk, and if I want something to drink I get it myself.

 

[RolandtheHeadless]

I don't post just for your benefit.

I believe my wife's reports. She worked for a Japanese bank, a Japanese-Swiss joint venture in Osaka, and the Japanese consulate here until a few years ago. Reports from other Japanese women would be less reliable to me, except that they're consistent with my wife's.

 

[plumblossom]

It would seem to me that whether it is humiliating or not can only be judged by the person performing the act.

I strongly disagree with this, Mike.
The woman herself did not invent this as part of her job description. The men who run the office *did* . Kneeling to serve tea in an office situation is quite unusual (although quite common in nice restaurants). She was taught (by her male superiors) that this was the appropriate behaviour for this office. Aino asked the pertinent question of whether this was a western styled office, and it was, so if you live in Japan you'll know that the general protocol is different in such a setting.

If it's not humiliating, why doesn't the big boss go around on his knees serving tea, hmmm?



MY Japanese (male) colleague (well, my boss actually) also raised an eyebrow, and I think he was a bit embarrassed on her behalf because he's a very educated man and likes to paint Japan in a good light.. but there was no getting away from the sexism this time.

And I was a guest in the office; it wasn't my office. I had gone there for a meeting. It would have been truly bizzare if I'd randomly got up to get my own tea.. not even knowing where the kettle was kept.

"Some day you might want to trace the origin of that cup of tea that magically appears on your desk. "

BAHAHAHA! good one Roland.

 

[plumblossom]

To be honest Mike Cash, you sound like you've got a touch of the "GEt out of MY Japan". We're all basing our opinions on our own experiences here. There's no doubt about the fact that kneeling to serve tea, when only females do it, is designed to be humiliating. Especially when my own Japanese male boss didn't know where to look, because he knew it too.

 

[Mike Cash]

To be honest Mike Cash, you sound like you've got a touch of the "GEt out of MY Japan". We're all basing our opinions on our own experiences here. There's no doubt about the fact that kneeling to serve tea, when only females do it, is designed to be humiliating. Especially when my own Japanese male boss didn't know where to look, because he knew it too.

Where on earth do you get that "Get out of MY Japan" crap?

Your boss didn't know where to look because he was thinking, "Oh, Jeez....now I'm probably going to catch an earful from a gaijin over this."

So why is it not humiliating when done in a restaurant?

You really think male society gets together and conspires, "Hey, let's humiliate the chicks in the office." ?

Why did you not speak up for the woman you felt was being so horribly abused by those wretched men? (I bet you drank the tea anyway...dincha).

I don't post just for your benefit.

That's a relief. I haven't seen anything from you yet that I would consider beneficial.

For whose benefit were you posting that utter nonsense about Japanese women always riding in the back of cars?

I believe my wife's reports. She worked for a Japanese bank, a Japanese-Swiss joint venture in Osaka, and the Japanese consulate here until a few years ago. Reports from other Japanese women would be less reliable to me, except that they're consistent with my wife's.

What on earth are you going on about? Are you under the impression I said that women in Japanese companies don't make tea?

 

[Glenski]

If you are letting a custom of kneeling while serving tea get to you that strongly, you should really consider staying away. No, not from Mike's Japan or mine, but from the rest of the Japanese people's Japan. It's a bloody custom, as much as any other, and who gave you the right to disrespect it by calling it humiliating? It is not your place to do such.

Want to get all in a huff over a humiliating custom that is really worth the time? Let's talk about other countries and their practice of genital mutilation instead.

When I first arrived to Japan I gave Japanese men the benefit of the doubt.

What doubt? It seems that you already knew things weren't the same as your own country! "Benefit of the doubt" in itself sounds so condescending when talking about another person's culture, especially about their personal character and ways, but I bet you didn't realize that.

As for your anecdote about women and cars, I'm with Mike here. That's just plain absurd. Oh, and as for "All women drive in Japan", where did you get that crap? I know of plenty who are mere "paper drivers", and my own mother-in-law, her sister and mother never drove in their lives.

What I have noticed is that a lot more women drive here when their husband is in the car, whereas at home (the UK) it's the men who drive. I think the idea is that it's the woman's job to drive the man around in Japan i.e a chauffer.

Well, what you "think" and what is real are probably totally different. My wife laughed when she heard that. I'll offer an alternative that is equally subjective but that probably holds more water than your idea. How's this? Men take public transportation so much that they are too tired to drive, or that they don't have the practice that their wives do, since they do all the household chores and run all the errands. It's just not safe for me to drive. But that any more than your own concept?

 

[Mike Cash]

It says far more about her than it does about Japanese society that she finds serving tea to be degrading or humiliating. What other jobs or tasks must she also look down at nose at?

This is a country which doesn't have "job descriptions", dearest Plum Blossom. You may find some few companies that ape Western practice by having them, but they are rare. In a Japanese company the "job description" is "We all go to work and we all do what needs to be done". I doubt that the top brass at my company have it in their "job description" to "come in on Sundays to remove weeds"....but they do it. I'm positive they don't have it in their "job description" to "when shorthanded, take off your necktie and go sweat your butt off unloading trucks"....but they do it.

I can't imagine another single statement that would cause more shock and loathing from superiors and coworkers alike in a Japanese company than, "That's not in my job description."

The junior person present handles fetching the tea and whatnot when any sort of conference or meeting is being held. Guess who is typically the junior person present in an office environment? One of the office ladies, that's who. Know why you won't get asked to wrangle the tea? Not just because you're a touchy gaijin female who they know would explode at even the suggestion of such an "indignity", but because whatever function they brought your British butt over here to perform at the company, it sure as hell isn't general purpose office lady. Come to think of it....I have a very interesting idea. Why don't you ask the office ladies for a copy of their job description. I'd like to see just exactly what is on it.

I suppose when lowering trays to knee-high tables British women must find it more elegant to bend from the waist, so they can give everybody a shot at peeking down their blouses and have their rear ends stuck out a mile.

Glenski is right about the "benefit of the doubt" remark; such condescending snide prejudice is remarkable. No, I don't want you to "Get out of MY Japan". You won't even be IN Japan until you're OUT of England, so the point is rather moot.

 

[Glenski]

Many (most?) OLs are part-time workers, which automatically puts them on the bottom rung.

Mike is also right about the lack of a specific job description. Look around office buildings and you'll see men and women in suits picking up garbage on the sidewalk. At my university, even tenured professors are required once a year to pick up garbage on the campus grounds. And, when the school holds events, the office workers serve food from tents. You can even see men in suits shoveling snow and chipping ice off the front walk in winter.

Some years ago, I was working for a branch U.S. company in Tokyo. When visiting customers to install our equipment and train them how to use it, I would sometimes take a tea break with the staff. Yes, women would sometimes (not always) bring me tea, smile demurely, and overall try to make it a pleasant situation for me. My response then? Smile back and say thank you. It was not one hundred percent comfortable being waited on like that, but it was the Japanese way. Accept it.

Want to see a really male-dominated side of things in Japan? Try going to a business bar and watch the hostesses serve customers. What they do there is in their job descriptions!

Some barbaric patriarchies actually force women to reproduce, but Japan is not as bad as that.

Considering that there is a negative birthrate here, Japan needs to do something to encourage reproduction, though. You have to admit that! We all know the government is not going to hire foreigners to replace the lost workers as they age out of the process.

I also think the "Japanese women's power is behind closed doors" thing is bullshit.

Yes, Japanese men let their wives rule the roost at home... but this is because even strictly patriarchal countries like Japan understand that you have to allow women SOMETHING. OTherwize none of them are ever going to get married. So the society says "No, you can't have political or economic power or financial independance but we'll let you be a good little consumer and spend your husband's money and rule the home"

You make it sound as if the home role is something doled out by the men as a token and condescending gift to women. That thinking is B.S.

Men work long hours (even if you include the hours after office time in a bar), so who else is going to run the home? The women, of course! There is no "letting" people do anything here. There is no choice! I'm just very happy to see how so many actually do such a great job of it. They manage the money (in a poor economy, this ability is a boon to any marriage or family), schedule the kids' after-school activities (something Dad probably isn't even aware they are doing, as much as the kids are unaware of what their father's job is), trudge to the supermarket daily (a custom, sometimes based on the size of the fridge, and sometimes based on the type of food that is cooked, and partly based on the fact that so many meats/fish/vegies/fruits are sold at the peak of freshness that is hard to keep them very long at home), deal with PTA (pretty much like back home, right?), and do major house cleaning (since image is everything in Japan, this is a lot of work in itself). An American friend of mine bucked the system last year and chose to take a year of paternity leave while his Japanese wife continued to work FT, so he could take care of their newborn. He learned firsthand what it is like! I greatly appreciate my own wife's ability to handle all those things, but in our case a few things are done simply because she has a far superior command of the language than I do. I still do my best to help around the home, but you wouldn't imagine how hard it is to wrest a vacuum cleaner away from her hands or to fill the washing machine for her. It's not like I don't know how to do either chore, but it's more a matter of her feeling the obligation to do it, no matter how sick she may be at the time.

 

[plumblossom]

"Want to see a really male-dominated side of things in Japan?"

As a woman who lived the best part of her twenties in Japan I've seen it all. Really, and truly. I could tell you stories of things that have happened to me that would make your hair stand on end. In fact, I think I might at some point. Before that I lived as a student in Russia... Japan is feminist-central compared to Russia.

I've been married to a Japanese guy for 6 years (I'm 30 now) so I think I'm perhaps a bit more clued up on the role of wives in Japan and what our obligations are than the men on here.... seeing as I AM ONE. I love Japan, it is my home.

Job description= my shorthand for "what you're supposed to do at work, whatever that may happen to be". So of course Japan has job descriptions.

"Oh, Jeez....now I'm probably going to catch an earful from a gaijin over this.""

Actually, I hardly noticed because I've got so used to this ****. IT was only when I saw my boss's raised eyebrow and him glance at me that I thought.."yes indeed, there is a woman kneeling before us on the floor right now. How bizarre."



Look, it's pretty obvious that Japan is highly patriarchal.

And it's pretty obvious that Japanese women are reacting to this by refusing to have children.

I should go to parliament and help the old geezers out, the ones who are struggling to understand why Japanese women are refusing to reproduce. I'll give them a hint each time they say.."What on earth is WRONG with ONLY women kneeling to serve tea and NO men doing it at all... ??? "What is WRONG with the "baby-machines, why aren't they working to their full capacity"? It's a MYSTERY..."

Well, it's not a mystery to me. And it's not a mystery to Japanese women either... hence the silent revolt.

The Japanese are not the street-marching type. It's not in their nature.
But mark my words, there is a stealth revolution going on in Japan.... Japanese women have been refusing to have kids for a while and they're going to keep doing so until the grey-heads take notice.

And.. educated Japanese men, such as my boss, and your average educated Japanese woman would be the first to point out that the culture is sexist and needs to change.

My own country (Britain) is patriarchal too (less than 20 per cent of politicians are women)... so I don't know why you suggested I should go back there... out of the frying pan into the fire ... What I'm saying is that in THIS patriarchy the sexism manifests like THIS, whereas in the patriarchy I'M from it manifests differently....

It's chat, right?

 

[RolandtheHeadless]

"The junior person present handles fetching the tea and whatnot when any sort of conference or meeting is being held. Guess who is typically the junior person present in an office environment? One of the office ladies, that's who."

That statement is revealing. Your assertion that the junior person handles the tea suggests that the role is dictated by economic efficiency. Yet, that is contrary to my wife's experience; she frequently had to help make and serve tea to junior, less-well-paid male co-workers.

You also assume that it's natural ("typical") that the females would be in the most-junior positions. You know so much about Japan that you must be right. Has it occurred to you that you've seized upon a sexist example to argue there is no sexism?

 

[plumblossom]

yes, exactly Roland.
Mike sneers at me for (in his mind) looking down my nose at a woman who serves tea on the floor...

...because he believes that I, (being a woman and all), should not regard such a job as beneath me



PROJECTION!11!!!

I made it very clear I was annoyed at the people who run the office, the men who expect her to do that, when it's outside of the cultural norm in a Western-style office. In other words: there was no need for it.


It's beneath him, of course. And the old oyajis who make the rules.. but it shouldn't be beneath me. Why would that be Mike?

 

[Firesong3]

Make love, not war

C'mon everyone, let's have a reasonable discussion about this... I'm actually interested in this topic, so if we could, perhaps, lay the "kneeling down while serving tea" issue aside for the moment? (considering that it really is quite a small little thing?) :sorry:

Erm, so... getting back to the original topic of what I'm going to call differences between sexes in Japan... I recently spoke to a Japanese friend of mine and taught him the meaning of the word "patriarchal." I then said sternly that Japan was a patriarchal society and raised my eyebrows at him... he responded by saying that his mother, at 60 years old and with 2 kids, had just decided she wanted to retire from her FT job and let his dad keep working!

Also, most of my Japanese male friends can cook for themselves and clean up after themselves (they live alone), and I would be hard pressed to say the same thing of my Western male friends here... who ironically live off packet, fake ramen noodles...

Sure there are sexist terms and things like that used in Japan (like Christmas Cake...) but I have also seen similar terms used in Australia and Britian, even by other women!

So I think, in terms of raising a household and such, it's more about the personality than the nationality nowadays... and even though there is a trend in Japan towards "good wife, wise mother," (if you will forgive the outdated term) there are surely ways for a smart Japanese woman to figure out a way to be both a good mother and hold down a FT job (at least, from my limited experience). And none of my female Japanese friends ever said anything about not getting married, (they are 19-22 yrs old) but are pursuing degrees in technically and/or academically difficult areas of work.

In fact, the only person who has said that she never wants to get married is me... and I'm Australian!

 

[Coffeesan]

Can I slide in a quick question here? It does relate to the submissive patriachial topics being discussed. I tutor and hang around with a Japanese girl at my uni we're pretty close and basically during the last week of term last year she said we should have lunch (nothing fancy) anyway it got to the day and she came out with ''I very sorry I have no money to buy us lunch'' and kinda bowed her head all ashamed and depressed.
I was really confused because when she first mentioned it I had assumed I would be buying everything as thats what men do in our culture.. UK/The west what ever.. When you go out to eat with a girl the man usually pays or very occasionally theyll split. Anyways seems she had the opposite idea and before I could spit something out like uhmm I presumed I was paying or ha pay me back or lets go halves or let me take it? Trying to sum up the most polite thing the whole thing got forgotten. I've always wondered if I offended her. Genuinely the whole week I hadnt thought about it because I just assumed I would pay because thats how we do it here. Is it generally accepted the opposite in Japan? Seems from a lot of posts women are the home bankers.. Which is also different from here where men are usually in charge of that stuff..