Do adolescents and adults learn foreign languages quickly/better than young children?

[Chidoriashi]

For the Japanese case of "not knowing English" despite 6 years of education, well.. their are many theories, but I believe at least half of it comes down to a combination of a lack of need, motivation and perseverance. I believe a person who is exposed to a second language much earlier on (kindergarten/elementary school) will have much easier time going on to master it as an teenager/adult.

 

[Mars Man]

I would tend more to agree with the reasons you have put there, Chidoriashi san.

As for that last thought, I can give several case history points, but one really hits home. Our eldest son, now coming up on 20, spent almost half of his third year, all of his fourth year, and more than half of his fifth year of age in the USA.

There, he of course was exposed to English, operated in an English environment, and made friends with the neighbor girls--lucky little dude--(there were by random occurance no male children his age nearby). In the house and with just us, Mchan and I used as much Japanese as possible, but did use some English in the house as well. Of course he had Big Bird and Barney to help him some, though.

Our second son had been born there, and had spent very close to the first 1.5 years of his life there. Of course, language acquisition doesn't happen so much at all for a major portion of that time period, but by the time we came back to Japan, he was operating (as best any male that age usually will be able to) in mostly English.

Our third son had been born here. Now, as we had just got back here, son #1 and #2 of course played together in English, and #1 used much English around the house. At that point in time, I used only English in the house (although Mchan, bless her little lazy soul (lazy in that respect only, let's say) gave up on trying to use only English in the house).

As son #1 went on into elementary school, really stepping out into, and more fully interacting with and depending on the Japanese enviornment (linguistically speaking) he slowly developed the expected habit of speaking in Japanese more and more, and, of course, playing with son #2 in Japanese, more and more.

By the time son #3 was old enough to actually play with them, those two were fully operating in Japanese.

Son #1 went to the states on his own this past late Feb. for almost an entire month. That shows the degree and ability of his English--even though only I used it in the house here during that whole some 14 years (and I was usually away teaching at night, you see...and Mchan was using Japanese). Son #2 has a very hard time following my mother when she calls, but can kind of say a few things (as you might expect of a now first year highschooler with some natural acquisition under the belt), but our #3 son is at a total loss--even being a second year jr. higher.

What this shows, is that the acquisition element is a strong effector on the memory system, and that a good bi-lingual home-life situation, would make a big difference between a person's starting to learn a language from early teens from total scratch in a non-target language environment, and a person having that acquired from life-stlye-usage-and-applied-memory linguistical input.

My #1 son's spelling is extremely bad...I have to call him sometimes after his e-mails, to see what word he had meant...but on the phone...no problem at all. After all sons have finished highschool, I'll again be able to make a good measure, but I am very certain the result will support just as you have said there in that second thought.

 

[tada]

I think young children have the edge. I regret not starting to study Japanese until I was 18 years old, which is gray-nose-hairs old for learning a second language.

In my linguistics class, they taught us about a "language acquisition device" that everyone has that enables them to learn their first language. It basically can be molded to any pattern. In a balanced bilingual household, they will learn both languages. In an unbalanced one, they will learn more of one language than another. If they're raised by wolves, they will know no languages.

 

[bakaKanadajin]

I didn't think this was even up for debate?
There are two stages when young people are most able and likely to pick up a second language and be able to see it through to full and complete fluency. One is of course the early years, and the other is adolesence around 11-15. If a child becomes immersed in a 2nd language during either of those two times the brain is primed for exposure, acquisition and survival to the degree that it will learn quite fast and naturally.

I started studying Japanese two years ago at age 25, and I have come to the realization that my comprehension will always be stained by my native tongue as a busy-body, translating go-between. Hearing Japanese will just never sound as natural and true to my brain as English because it's not hard wired, it's layered ontop as a piece of information I've studied and learned.

This short abstract highlights precisely what I mean. In early learners the same areas of the brain are responsible for mother tongue and 2nd tongue, whereas in late learners (even those with high proficiency) the same areas are not affected. This means that the area of the brain responsible for language is not used to gain a 2nd language after a certain point in time is surpassed.

Validate User

 

[anomouse]

This short abstract highlights precisely what I mean. In early learners the same areas of the brain are responsible for mother tongue and 2nd tongue, whereas in late learners (even those with high proficiency) the same areas are not affected. This means that the area of the brain responsible for language is not used to gain a 2nd language after a certain point in time is surpassed.
Validate User

It doesn't say anything like that.

These findings suggest that, at least for pairs of L1 and L2 languages that are fairly close, attained proficiency is more important than age of acquisition as a determinant of the cortical representation of L2.

 

[Pachipro]

I started studying Japanese two years ago at age 25, and I have come to the realization that my comprehension will always be stained by my native tongue as a busy-body, translating go-between. Hearing Japanese will just never sound as natural and true to my brain as English because it's not hard wired, it's layered ontop as a piece of information I've studied and learned.

I think young children have the edge. I regret not starting to study Japanese until I was 18 years old, which is gray-nose-hairs old for learning a second language.

There are certainly adults living as residents in a foreign country, several on this very forum, that have not "picked up" the language to even the slightest degree naturally and without trying as would happen to every normal child.

Mental maturity makes learning easier for older people, don't you think? There's no reason to think that "intuitive learning" is better than another approach..

While I believe that it will be much easier for a child to learn a foreign language than an adult because of the obvious reasons of not having much to worry about and not being concious about making mistakes, I believe an adult can still learn just as quick if he/she applies himself and stays away as much as possible from their native language when living in a foreign country. I know it's easier said than done.

I started learning the Japanese language at 18 while in the service in Japan and was more exposed to my native language than Japanese. Therefore, I did not pick it up as fast as I wanted to. It was only when I stayed in country after leaving the military, got my own apartment, and completely divorced myself from all English language, outside of University, including friends, that I quickly picked it up and learned much faster than I would have in my own country.

All my friends spoke very little or no English and I preferred it that way. I stayed away from "gaijin" hangouts and lived as a Japanese would. I was forced to learn it and had no other choice. Within a matter of two years I was fairly fluent including reading and writing and it became as natural to me as English was. In fact I often dreamt in Japanese and still do on occasion today.

And even today, Japanese is as natural to me as English. Even though I do not speak it often, I understand 90% of what I hear even though I am not as able to converse as easily as I did in the past. However, when I go back to Japan on visits, when no English is spoken, it slowly comes back to me where, within a week, I am 100% more able to converse than I was while living in the states. Strange I know and I cannot explain it, but it does happen.

I am 53 now and have no problem improving my Japanese ability as, like I mentioned, it is a natural part of my life and has been for 35 years now. I do believe, though, I would have a problem learning another foreign language without living there. Maybe, and this may be a false assumption or wishful thinking, but I feel that if I were to suddenly move to say, Korea or China, I would probably immerse myself in the culture much as I did in Japan and may not have much of a problem learning the language in a short period even at my age as I believe if the will is there a way will be found.

I believe the key is a desire to learn and immersing one's self completely in the culture regardless of age. Again, probably easier said than done.

 

[Nall-ohki]

I didn't think this was even up for debate?

This attitude is why I stopped debating in this thread.

Most everyone on the "children obviously learn faster" side has already made up their minds and quote studies that say things associated with the topic, but do not directly address the question (I haven't read your stuff thoroughly yet).

It is up for debate, because as far as we know, and as long as we're using social science to determine things, things are always up for debate.

 

[bakaKanadajin]

It doesn't say anything like that.

Yes sorry wrong link, actually that one contrdicts what I'm trying to say. And fair enough there are of course arguments to both sides that's not a secret, but the information on where language is stored/re-called in the brain in this 2nd link is what I was referring to moreso.

When an Adult Adds a Language, It's One Brain, Two Systems (Published 1997)

So the only reason I'm on the side of better proficiency for early learners is because I feel the early years are so crucial to brain development and the hard wiring is therefore firmer; its a window that opens and closes, once its closed it simply doesn't exist the same way anymore. I've met many people who without formal study of any kind know a 2nd language simply through naturalization at home, and even though it isn't perfect it's still a lot more than most people could hope to attain if they started studying right now.

As Uncle Frank pointed out it's not like it's impossible to gain high proficiency through careful dedication and application of your work ethic, i don't doubt that at all. But how can you perceive just how 'naturally' that 2nd language is processed vs. if you'd learned it from infancy? After all these years of separation from English Uncle Frank's English is still as good as ever, but if he's away from Japan for a while the Japanese is slightly diminished. Yes it comes back but obviously the two are not operating in quite the same fashion and that's my only point.

From teaching experience and also meeting some full Japanese-English bi-lingual young people, it's easy to tell the difference between a high-level English speaker and someone who was naturalized with it. There's almost always a slight accent, a minor grammatical error, something that a native speaker just wouldn't do. The naturalized bilingual has a perfect command of both, and I think this is a function of both languages having been solely imprinted in the same language center vs. delegated other areas of the brain to cope with a much different adult learning process.

Here's a question, does the vast difference between sentence/grammatical structure (and hence thinking pattern) between some Asian and Western languages have anything to do with it? I think picking up French for example is much easier as a 2nd language than Japanese if we're talking about an English speaker. Likewise the Chinese and Korean Japanese ESL students I've met far exceed the speed and progress of Western Japanese ESL students as the kanji and grammar are not as difficult to learn.