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Continental Migrations from Korean Peninsula to Japanese islands

There are newly proposed hypotheses, and I will summarize the points made by four posters, Adulado, Kyushin, charlypanda Izur.

Many of posters don't discuss their statements in details, and I think it appropriate to examine them before the other members will get lost where to look, or to start.

Korean posters' hypotheses
  • Scenario: Gojoseon men are O2b* carriers
  • Scenario: Goguryeo men are O2b* carriers
  • Scenario: Goguryeo men and Gojoseon men are O2b* carriers, i.e., Goguryeo is a descendant of Gojoseon
  • Scenario: 40 percents of Japanese are sinitic, not altaic. O2b1 is borne in southern china.
  • Scenario: 28 percents of Japanese are non-sinitic, altaic. O2b1 was borne in Jilin Province of China.
  • Scenario: Ancient Koreans had two separate unmixed, tribes of each being purely O2b1 or O2b*.
  • Scenario: O2b1 carriers were first borne 7,870 years ago, O2b1 carriers crossed the sea to japan to become the 20 percents of present day japanese.

Up till now, scenario supposed that O2b was borne in Korea, or Manchuria, which is doubtful?

It is clear that 44.5 percents of koreans are O3 carriers (most common in chinese), and 20 percents of
Japanese are O3 carriers. (most common in chinese)

It is also clear that Manchus have only a few percents of O2b*.

Another question is,.. when were the O3's genetic variations? O2b1 was borne 7,870 years ago, and Okinawans have this O2b1 with a high frequency, and Okinawans didn't have notable records from influences from Korea...

O2, origin of all O2 haplogroups, was probably primitive tribes of south east asian people who migrated north.

List of charlypanda's hypotheses: (korean poster)
  1. Gojoseon men are O2b* carriers. But not Goguryeo men.
  2. Goguryeo men are O2b* carriers. But not Gojoseon men.
  3. Goguryeo men and Gojoseon men are O2b* carriers, i.e., Goguryeo is a descendant of Gojoseon.
  4. Koreans is not a part of Longshan culture.
  5. O2b1 was borne in Jilin Province of China.
  6. Koreans had two separate unmixed, tribes of each being purely O2b1 or O2b*.
  7. O2b1 was borne in Gojoseon, or Chaoxian tribe.
  8. O2b* was Gojoseon marker.
  9. This is as an axle of a car whereof left and right wheel RPM are differentiated. I think those who remain in Highland reproduce children less than who make
    that in fertile Lowland. Hence I suppose that Gaoyi might have been O2b and Liangyi O2b1.
  10. No Gojoseon as a state/nation existed, but Chaoxian Tribe, Highland Tribe.
  11. I'm imagining Tangun Korea was a part of Ceramic Comb Pottery, Bear Cult Zone that stretched from Pacific to Atlantic Ocean.
  12. 東夷族系向東北的遷徙,客觀上為中國東北地區的開發和建設作出了卓越的歷史貢獻。
    就其本身而言,則又進行了局部地區的演變與融合,
    最終便發展成了數量眾多的具有相同族源和相近文化的各個民族。
  13. Ancient mogols were korean, O2b* and O2b1. → A part of ancient Mongolians became a part of ancient Koreans
  14. Japanese emperor is/was korean. → LOL Wei's Chronicle says that Wo people once erected a man for king but all people didn't agree and then erected a queen. By the way, Korea is something that arouse a millenium later thereafter.
  15. Dongyi were Koreans. → Majority of Koreans are Dongyi.

All points were claimed without sources... Easy to spot that this korean did retract his statements every now and then, after his claims did not reveal to be favorable to Koreans self-images.

In a formal wording, historical revisionism...

List of Kyushin's hypotheses: (korean poster)
  1. Modern Japanese genes are recently made not as old as Korean genes.
  2. Han Chinese mutated O3 is O3d aka O3a4-M7
  3. Koreans share close proximity of mtDNA and autosomal DNA with Mongolian and Japanese.
  4. Gojoseon tombs revealed little info. about DNA because they are too old for extracting DNA analysis, so researchers used skull measurements to determine the origin. They've found Dolmen builders (Gojoseon people) may have originated from Central Asia.
  5. Qing Dynasty prohibited ethnic group to mix but this gradually stand down as many Mongolian and Manchus married Han Chinese.
  6. If Han Chinese were ancestor of Japanese/Koreans then they should also have O2b* + O2b1, also O3d-M7 aka O3a4, O1b-M110 + O2a1-M88 is absent from Koreans or Japanese.
  7. If Koreans were originated from Northern Han Chinese then Koreans should have O1b-M110, O2a1-M88 and O3d-M7 and would have transported this carriers to Japan, however Koreans don't have them thus Japanese don't have them too.
  8. This doesn't mean O2b is originated from SE Asia because O2b is not dominant y-Chromosome marker among SE Asian population. Who knows some Japanese/Koreans may have traveled far as SE Asia and spread their marker.
  9. Scientists are using Korean genes to measure the genetic distance between among East Asian because Koreans are known to be most homogeneous people in East Asia, more homogeneous than Japanese.

Reply to Kyushin..

(1) does not make sense at all.
(2) O3 composition of han chinese is similar to Koreans.
(3) Mongols do not have O2b*, uniquely korean genes.
(4) Koreans, O2b*, originated from Central Asia? Why does Central asian not have O2b*, uniquely korean genes?
(5) At time of Qing, Mongolians and Manchus population was immesurably small to the han chinese population.
(6) Why Han chinese people have similar composition of O3 YDNA to Koreans?
(7) "O3-M122(xO3a3c-M134) is found in China with about the same frequency as it is found in Korea".

Korean YDNA composition:
  1. 15/722 = 2.1 percents D (probably mostly D2 from Japan)
  2. 8/722 = 1.1 percents Y*(xC, DE, K) (including at least some J and F(xI, J2, H1, K))
  3. 101/722 = 14.0 percents C (probably all C3-M217(xC3c-M48))
  4. 42/722 = 5.8 percents K(xO) (including at least N1*(xN1a, N1b, N1c), N1a, N1c, NO(xN1, O), Q1a1, and R)
  5. 245/722 = 33.9 percents O(xO1a, O3) (mostly consists of O2b(xO2b1))
  6. 19/722 = 2.6 percents O1a
  7. 292/722 = 40.4 percents O3
(8) Koreans traveled to Vietnam, Malaysia, and Indonesia to contribute O2b? Any evidences or historical records?
(9) According to the YDNA frequency, Korean are not homogeneous. Please read the figure, before you post...

Adulado
  1. Wasn't clarified that o2b1 is a mutated form of o2b? also Okinawans also have Korean DNA and vice versa (Koreans have 17 percent Okinawan DNA, even more than the Japanese), I don't know in which period but Goryo style roof tiles was found in Okinawa.

(1) This is incorrect. 17 percents of Okinawans do have O2b1, uniquely japanese haplogroups..

List of Izur's hypotheses
  1. The fact that haplogroup O2b is not generally found in North Asia or continental East Asia (outside of Koreans and Manchus) is itself enough to throw serious doubt on any hypothesis of an ancient continental Manchurian origin.
  2. Hammer et al. (2005) have found haplogroup O2*-P31(xO2a-M95, O2b-SRY465/P49) in Han chinese
  3. I believe that the mitochondrial DNA, autosomal DNA, and phenotypic links that exist between Koreans and northern Asians can be explained by a largely shared matrilineal ancestry in addition to the portion of their patrilineal ancestry that is represented by haplogroup C3-M217.
  4. The present work provides evidence that peopling of Korea can be seen as a complex process, interpreted as an early northern Asian settlement with at least one subsequent male-biased southern-to-northern migration, possibly associated with the spread of rice agriculture. (Y chromosomes and mtDNA of Koreans, 2009, Han-Jun Jin, Chris Tyler-Smith, Wook Kim)
  5. O3-M122(xO3a3c-M134) is found in China with about the same frequency as it is found in Korea
  6. Haplogroup O3a3c-M134: Found frequently among Sino-Tibetan peoples, with a moderate distribution throughout East Asia and Southeast Asia.
  7. The only logical explanation is that O2b has entered some subgroups of the Southern Tungusic-speaking people very recently from Korea or Japan, and there is historical evidence for an influence from southwestern Japan ("Wa") to southern Korea ("Silla," "Baekje") and thence to Manchuria ("Goguryeo" > "Bohai" > "Manju");
  8. It is clear that haplogroup O3-M122 (including O3*, O3+LINE1, O3a3c*, and O3a3c1) is the most common Y-DNA haplogroup among modern Koreans, occurring in approximately 40% of all Korean males

In summary,

  1. The dominant O3 haprogroup of Japanese is O3a3c-M134, which is also dominant in southern chinese population. Koreans have less O3a3c-M134 than japanese, providing evidences that Japanese islanders O3a3c-M134 might be from Southern china during Ice age with land bridge between mainland and japanese islands.
  2. O3 genes were brought to Korean peninsula, and to Japanese isles separately. On average, Japanese have more O3a3c-M134 than Koreans, implying that Japanese islanders colonized korean peninsulas, and reproduced with korean women, and left smaller O3a3c-M134 in Korean peninsula.
  3. O2b1 is almost non-existent, or very few to be unnoticeable in Mongolia, China, Manchuria. O2b1 is also low frequency in Koreans (4 percents to 12 percents.), but high in Japanese, implying that Japanese colonized the southernmost koreans, and descendants reproduced with korean men, to leave traces of japanese genes, which were actually southern han chinese genes.


It is known by Gwanggaeto Stele...

而 倭 以 辛 卯 年 來 渡 海 破 百 殘 X X [X斤 (新)] 羅 以 爲 臣 民​

First Interpretation
"And in the sinmyo year the Wa (Japanese) came and crossed the sea and defeated Baekje, [unknown], and [Sil]la and made them subjects."

Second Interpretation
"And in the sinmyo year Goguryeo came and crossed the sea and defeated Wa. Baekje made [unknown] and [Sil]la its subjects."

Genetic evidences seem to support the first interpretation of Gwanggaeto Stele.. It is understandable koreans must hate japanese...

450pxRubbing_of_the_Gwanggaeto_Stele-1.jpg



Three scenarios can be discussed here...

Scenario (By Kyushin, and Izur) O3 genes were brought to Korean peninsula, and to Japanese isles separately. Dual origins of two O3 gene types.​

During Ice age, there were hunter-gatherers in china, who carried the O2 genes. O2 people eventually mutated to become O2b* and migrated along the coastline to korean peninsula. However, the rice cultures and advanced people from china pushed those primitives, O2b* carriers, to only korean peninsula, to become the 17 percents of present day koreans?

Gojoseon, and Goguryeo men, O2b* carriers, were under the rule of Lelang Commandery (BC108-AD313). Korean women headed to reproduce with northern Han chinese men (O3 haplogroups other than O3a3c of southern chinese)? Many of Gojoseon defected to the southernmost korean peninsula formed the three countries?

During Ice age, southern chinese, mostly O3a3c-M134, crossed the land bridge between mainlands, and japanese islands. O2b* men, hunter-gatherers in china, also migrated to Okinawa in different periods? Those southern chinese colonized the primitive people of okinawa, and went on civilizing jomon people of japan. Some O2b* men went japanese islands, and then to Korean peninsula, leaving traces of japanese in korean peninsula. Around 7,870 years ago, O2b1 was formed in japanese islands?

Japanese O3a3c, and newly mutated O2b1 men crossed the sea and colonized korean peninsula. At the time of invasion, both Baekje and Silla men decreased because of Lelang Commandery (BC108-AD313) and weakened by Goguryeo invasions. When japanese primitive people invaded Baekje and Silla, many korean women flock to primitive japanese men, O3a3c-M134 and O2b1 carriers to survive the hardships, and reproduced the offsprings of O3a3c-M134 and O2b1, and then become 10-15 percents of present-day koreans with uniquely southern chinese genes, and become 4-12 percents of present day koreans carrying uniquely japanese genes ?

or

Scenario (By Izur) In the Ice age, O2* carriers to migrate to Okinawa from southern china. 7,870 years ago, Okinawans mutated to become both O2b* and then O2b1 separately.​

During Ice age, southern chinese, hunter-gatherers or O2* carriers, crossed the land bridge between okinawa and mainlands, and colonized the primitive people of japan. 7,870 years ago or even before, O2* mutated to become O2b* and O2b1?

In the continent, Lelang Commandery (BC108-AD313) colonized the koreans, and brought the O3 genes by ruling northern han chinese to reproduce with korean women, and become 30 percents of present day koreans.

Around the time of Goguryeo, primitive people of japan, reproduced with very high rates supported by warm weather of the japanese islands. Japanese men, O2b* and O2b1 carriers, crossed the sea, and invaded Baekje and Silla to install their governments? Goguryeo, upon hearing the invasions of japanese, headed to the peninsula, and recolonized the southernmost korea filled with island barbarians?

or



Scenario (By Izur) O2b1 was brought by Japanese to Korean peninsula, Baekje and Silla. O2b* was also brought to Japan from southern china, and to korean peninsula from japanese islands but O2b* was probably brought to korea much before 8000 years ago.​

Koreans ratio of O2b* (around 24 percents (14-33)) and O2b1 (around 8 percents (4-12) ) is around 3:1.
Japanese ratio of O2b* (around 6 percents (4-8)) to O2b1 (around 22 percents (19-25)) is 1:4.


To make sense, O2b* should be uniquely korean gene, and introduced to koreans 8000 years ago or even before. O2b1 should be uniquely japanese gene, and O2b* hunter-gathers who settled islands became O2b1 carriers to adjust different environments around 7,870 years ago.

Lelang Commandery (BC108-AD313) colonized and enslaved the Gojoseon, and Gojoseon women chose to marry northern han chinese of O3 other than O3a3c-M134, which resulted in the major decrease of O2b* genes (uniquely korean genes) in koreans. Only around 20 percents of present day Koreans carried this O2b*..

Around Goguryeo's zenith of power, Japanese primitive people, O2b1 and O3a3c-M134, invaded the southernmost korea, and many Silla and Baekje women chose to reproduce with ruling primitive people of japan, introducing the O2b1 to korean peninsula.​
 
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agnoni, I advise you to post your hypothesis not here but in a forum appropriate for that. Unless you want to be called a troll of course.
 
Yes/No.

Also, Han Chinese are more diverse than Japanese/Koreans due to massive population. A good way to distinguish all East Asian group is use mtDNA and autosomal DNA hence many people mistakenly thinking Koreans look similar to Mongolian/NE Chinese & Japanese this is because Koreans share close proximity of mtDNA and autosomal DNA with Mongolian and Japanese.
Please note, North East Han Chinese are recent immigrants to Manju, just 150 years ago they're not allowed to settled in Manchuria under Qing rules.

Han chinese settled korean peninsula from the time of Lelang Commandery (BC108-AD313)...

43512643ddd-1.jpg


agnoni, I advise you to post your hypothesis not here but in a forum appropriate for that. Unless you want to be called a troll of course.

You made bold hypotheses that Okiwanans have more korean genes (17 percents of Okinawans) than Japanese without citation... which were wrong, 17 percents of Okinawans have O2b1 (uniquely japanese genes, borne 7,870 years ago)...

Thanks for the advise, but I want to have feedbacks who don't name-call other members trolls.. Initialy, You and Kyushin responded to this thread without complaining, now you are...
 
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You made bold hypotheses that Okiwanans have more korean genes (17% of Okinawans) than Japanese without citation... which were wrong, 17 percents of Okinawans have O2b1 (uniquely japanese genes, borne 7,870 years ago).

As I said go to forum appropriate for this kind of discussion where you can get a proper response which is according to consensus among specialists. instead of boldly claiming your fantasies trying desperately associating Koreans and chinese.
 
As I said go to forum appropriate for this kind of discussion where you can get a proper response which is according to consensus among specialists. instead of boldly claiming your fantasies trying desperately associating Koreans and chinese.

I am not. I am just summarizing korean's arguments. Summary needs a reality check, and that's why I quoted the frequency of haplotypes, and some of you made bold hypotheses without giving any citation.

We need credibility check...
 
I am not. I am just summarizing korean's arguments. Summary needs a reality check, and that's why I quoted the frequency of haplotypes, and some of you made bold hypotheses without giving any citation.
We need credibility check...

then go to some other forum, there's little point in posting what is gibberish to most people here.
 
Haplogroup O2b
Time of origin 6,300 [600–37,000] years
Haplogroup O2b1
Time of origin 7,870 [5,720–12,630] years ago[8]
Place of origin perhaps the Japanese archipelago
O2b1 was borne 7,870 years ago, that tells something..
Kyushin
you must supply the sources. If you are a newcomer, and can't paste the link, that dose not excuse to post all those speculations without original citation...
That info. appears to be false, because O2 is father of all O2# markers just like what you've described earlier. Where did you get this false info. from? I like to verify the source.
To me you don't have knowledge in reading Y-chromosome.
Here is full tree for yDNA Hap group "O"
- Since I don't have right to post 3rd party links, I'll need to wait until I have accumulated enough posts.

isogg(dot)org/tree/ISOGG_HapgrpO07(dot)html
O2 --> O2a & O2b --> O2a1 & O2b1
- This is how you read the Hap tree.
 
There are newly proposed hypotheses, and I will summarize the points made by four posters, Adulado, Kyushin, charlypanda Izur.
Many of posters don't discuss their statements in details, and I think it appropriate to examine them before the other members will get lost where to look, or to start.
...

Btw,
1. I did not provided any hypothesis, my comments were based on scientific fact not some fantasies.

2. We don't know if Gojoseon/Dolmen builders was O2b carriers considering their samples were too old for extracting DNA evidence. Scientists can only use their remaining skulls to measure against to other skulls from same era to find out their origin.

3. As I have pointed earlier, the location of Lelang is disputed and it didn't covered all of Korea. It's commandery aka fortress not large city center. Furthermore, your map source is from Chinese, which I do not trust any Chinese sources considering 95% of their history was fabricated according to Chinese scholar.

4. Your hypothesis is based on wrong information by judging from your lack of DNA analysis knowledge, also there are latest DNA analysis report done which will give you more precise information due to latest analysis deployed more advanced analysis technology & method.
 
Here is full tree for yDNA Hap group "O"
- Since I don't have right to post 3rd party links, I'll need to wait until I have accumulated enough posts.
isogg(dot)org/tree/ISOGG_HapgrpO07(dot)html
O2 --> O2a & O2b --> O2a1 & O2b1
- This is how you read the Hap tree.

That isn't source at all. That is taxonomy, which let different researchers to speak and use the same terminology. Please cite the proper academic research papers, not the terminology dictionary.

That info. appears to be false, because O2 is father of all O2# markers just like what you've described earlier. Where did you get this false info. from? I like to verify the source.
To me you don't have knowledge in reading Y-chromosome.

Haplogroup O2b
Time of origin 6,300 [600–37,000] years

Haplogroup O2b1
Time of origin 7,870 [5,720–12,630] years ago[8]
Place of origin perhaps the Japanese archipelago

Here is the source..

  • Toru Katoh, Batmunkh Munkhbat, Kenichi Tounai et al., "Genetic features of Mongolian ethnic groups revealed by Y-chromosomal analysis," Gene (2004). doi:10.1016/j.gene.2004.10.023
  • Michael F. Hammer, Tatiana M. Karafet, Hwayong Park et al., "Dual origins of the Japanese: common ground for hunter-gatherer and farmer Y chromosomes," Journal of Human Genetics (2006) 51:47–58

Those papers were written by reputed researchers on this field. You just denounced it as false.. Are you that smart? Are you a professor in molecular biology? Can you please give us your real names? Academicians are more open to give their real names than other professions..

List of Kyushin's claims
  1. my (Kyushin's) comments were based on scientific fact not some fantasies.
  2. I (Kyushin) do not trust any Chinese sources considering 95 percents of their history was fabricated according to Chinese scholar.
  3. Scientists can only use their remaining skulls to measure against to other skulls from same era to find out their origin.

(3) After all those statements, you gave up genetics?
(1) you never supplied the citation, and yet you call your bold assertions as scientific facts?

Scientific facts should look this... and

Wells et al. (2001):
Koreans
3/45 = 6.7 percents D-M174
7/45 = 15.6 percents C-M130(xC3c-M48)
1/45 = 2.2 percents F-M89(xI-M170, J2-M172, H1-M52, K-M9)
1/45 = 2.2 percents K-M9(xL-M20, N1c-M46, O-M175, P-M45)
14/45 = 31.1 percents O-M175(xO1a-M119, O2a-M95, O3-M122)
16/45 = 35.6 percents O3-M122
2/45 = 4.4 percents O1a-M119
1/45 = 2.2 percents Q1a1-M120

Xue et al. (2006):
Korean (China)
2/25 = 8.0 percents Y*(xA, C, DE, J, K)
3/25 = 12.0 percents C3-M217(xC3c-M48)
1/25 = 4.0 percents K-M9(xNO-M214, P-92R7)
1/25 = 4.0 percents N1*-LLY22g(xN1a-M128, N1b-P43, N1c-Tat)
1/25 = 4.0 percents O2*-P31(xO2a-M95, O2b-SRY465)
5/25 = 20.0 percents O2b-SRY465(xO2b1-47z)
2/25 = 8.0 percents O2b1-47z
6/25 = 24.0 percents O3*-M122
4/25 = 16.0 percents O3a3c1-M117

Korean (Korea)
7/43 = 16.3 percents C3-M217(xC3c-M48)
1/43 = 2.3 percents DE-YAP(xE-SRY4064)
1/43 = 2.3 percents J-12f2
1/43 = 2.3 percents K-M9(xNO-M214, P-92R7)
1/43 = 2.3 percents NO-M214(xN1-LLY22g, O-M175)
1/43 = 2.3 percents N1*-LLY22g(xN1a-M128, N1b-P43, N1c-Tat)
1/43 = 2.3 percents O2*-P31(xO2a-M95, O2b-SRY465)
6/43 = 14.0 percents O2b-SRY465(xO2b1-47z)
6/43 = 14.0 percents O2b1-47z
7/43 = 16.3 percents O3*-M122
5/43 = 11.6 percents O3a3c-M134(xO3a3c1-M117)
5/43 = 11.6 percents O3a3c1-M117
1/43 = 2.3 percents P-92R7(xR1a-SRY10831.2)

Hammer et al. (2005):
7/75 = 9.3 percents C3-M217(xC3c-M86)
1/75 = 1.3 percents D2*-P37.1
2/75 = 2.7 percents D2a1-M125
1/75 = 1.3 percents N1-LLY22g(xN1a-M128, N1b-P43, N1c1-M178)
1/75 = 1.3 percents N1a-M128
8/75 = 10.7 percents O3-M122(xM134, LINE1)
15/75 = 20.0 percents O3a3c-M134
7/75 = 9.3 percents O3+LINE1
2/75 = 2.7 percents O1a-M119
2/75 = 2.7 percents O2*-P31(xO2a-M95, O2b-SRY465)
25/75 = 33.3 percents O2b-SRY465/P49(xO2b1-47z)
3/75 = 4.0 percents O2b1-47z
1/75 = 1.3 percents R-M207

Katoh et al. (2004):
Korean Chinese ("...collected in the northeastern part of
China")
10/79 = 12.7 percents C-M130(xC3c-M48)
2/79 = 2.5 percents D
1/79 = 1.3 percents J
1/79 = 1.3 percents K-M9(xN1c-Tat, O-M175, P-M45)
2/79 = 2.5 percents O-M175(xO1a-M119, O2b-SRY465, O3-M122)
38/79 = 48.1 percents O2b-SRY465
23/79 = 29.1 percents O3-M122
2/79 = 2.5 percents P-M45(xR1a-SRY1532)

Korean ("...collected in Seoul by the
Catholic University of Korea")
14/85 = 16.5 percents C-M130(xC3c-M48)
3/85 = 3.5 percents D
4/85 = 4.7 percents K-M9(xN1c-Tat, O-M175, P-M45)
2/85 = 2.4 percents N1c-Tat
3/85 = 3.5 percents O-M175(xO1a-M119, O2b-SRY465, O3-M122)
2/85 = 2.4 percents O1a-M119
28/85 = 32.9 percents O2b-SRY465
29/85 = 34.1 percents O3-M122

Anyhow, I want to have a rest.. I want other members to read and reply to this thread, not from those who made wrong conclusions, and when mistakes revealed, started to call OP as trolls, or not from those who never supplied the citation, yet denouce the most reputed scholars researchs.
 
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1) the Japanese rice tcame from southern china directry in genetics
it was not from by way of Korean peninsula
2)cormorant fishing
it is never seen in korean peninsula.
3) D2 chromosome
40~45%of Japanese have D2
it is not that all Jomon ppl had D2 until getting to Japan
end of Jomon ppl's population was only 80,000.
However 40~45%; of japanese have D2
In the migration at ancient times, male was subjects.
And, it conquered.
to be kept about 40% ...
1) Yayoi ppls immigrant was very small group/year for one thousand years
i think max was 100ppls
It was expelled even though it was a big groups.

4) language
Between Japan and Korea, there is no common word
It looks like the language of Okinawa that is further than Korea.
According to historical doccument, anciet Wa PPl advanced to korea oppositely...

1150gif-1.jpg
 
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That isn't source at all. That is taxonomy, which let different researchers to speak and use the same terminology. Please cite the proper academic research papers, not the terminology dictionary.
Here is the source..
  • Toru Katoh, Batmunkh Munkhbat, Kenichi Tounai et al., "Genetic features of Mongolian ethnic groups revealed by Y-chromosomal analysis," Gene (2004). doi:10.1016/j.gene.2004.10.023
  • Michael F. Hammer, Tatiana M. Karafet, Hwayong Park et al., "Dual origins of the Japanese: common ground for hunter-gatherer and farmer Y chromosomes," Journal of Human Genetics (2006) 51:47–58
Those papers were written by reputed researchers on this field. You just denounced it as false.. Are you that smart? Are you a professor in molecular biology? Can you please give us your real names? Academicians are more open to give their real names than other professions..
List of Kyushin's claims
  1. my (Kyushin's) comments were based on scientific fact not some fantasies.
  2. I (Kyushin) do not trust any Chinese sources considering 95 percents of their history was fabricated according to Chinese scholar.
  3. Scientists can only use their remaining skulls to measure against to other skulls from same era to find out their origin.
(3) After all those statements, you gave up genetics?
(1) you never supplied the citation, and yet you call your bold assertions as scientific facts?
Scientific facts should look this... and
Anyhow, I want to have a rest.. I want other members to read and reply to this thread, not from those who made wrong conclusions, and when mistakes revealed, started to call OP as trolls, or not from those who never supplied the citation, yet denouce the most reputed scholars researchs.

Your sources from 2004/2006 and your y-chromosome is largely based from Chinese source. There are latest report from 2009 done by non-Asian which is more balanced than some propaganda reports from Asia, as I pointed out before, this forum forbids me for quoting 3rd party links & photos. So I'll need to accumulate posts before I can start giving you the latest report.

"Genetic features of Mongolian ethnic groups revealed by Y-chromosomal analysis," Gene (2004). - This study concentrate on Mongolian ethnic not Japanese.

"Dual origins of the Japanese: common ground for hunter-gatherer and farmer Y chromosomes" - Again this basically tells there are dual origins, doesn't show O2b1 is older than O2b. You can't denied the fact O2b1 is muted gene from O2b, my original quote is to teach you how to read Y-chromosome markers as you seems you misunderstood.

Now, I asked you once again, where did you get your proof of O2b1 is older than O2b?
 
1) the Japanese rice tcame from southern china directry in genetics
it was not from by way of Korean peninsula
2)cormorant fishing
it is never seen in korean peninsula.
3) D2 chromosome
40~45ツ≫?徙f Japanese have D2
it is not that all Jomon ppl had D2 until getting to Japan
end of Jomon ppl's population was only 80,000.
However 40~45ツ≫?? of japanese have D2
In the migration at ancient times, male was subjects.
And, it conquered.
to be kept about 40ツ≫? ...
1) Yayoi ppls immigrant was very small group/year for one thousand years
i think max was 100ppls
It was expelled even though it was a big groups.
4) language
Between Japan and Korea, there is no common word
It looks like the language of Okinawa that is further than Korea.
According to historical doccument, anciet Wa PPl advanced to korea oppositely...

I wish your fantasy is true but it isn't the case.

1) Japanese rice farming culture directly originating from China is just another hypothesis not definite fact.

2) cormorant fishing is nothing do with early human migration theory. It's interesting you've brought this up because Chinese claims this as their fishing culture too.

3) D2 marker evidence just show Japanese have dual origins, 40%~45% is bit extreme because 3% make big difference in genetic mapping. Should have wrote 35~39% because average seems tobe 36% for Japanese.

4) Yayoi immigrants changed face of Japan with O2b & O3 as well as other markers. Read some reports like agnoni have posted "Dual origin of Japanese".

5) Hence language of Japan and Korea is now under isolated category which mean it does not associate with any other languages. The only thing is shared is loan Chinese words and altaic words. For many untrained ears, modern Korean spoken language sound like closer to Mongolian than any other languages in the world.

Linguistic comparison is not really related to genetic, it's under culture. You could be African with English/French language as first language. which doesn't prove anything.
 
Your sources from 2004/2006 and your y-chromosome is largely based from Chinese source. There are latest report from 2009 done by non-Asian which is more balanced than some propaganda reports from Asia, as I pointed out before, this forum forbids me for quoting 3rd party links & photos. So I'll need to accumulate posts before I can start giving you the latest report.
"Genetic features of Mongolian ethnic groups revealed by Y-chromosomal analysis," Gene (2004). - This study concentrate on Mongolian ethnic not Japanese.
"Dual origins of the Japanese: common ground for hunter-gatherer and farmer Y chromosomes" -

Am I seeing illusions of two research papers in your post??
you can post the name of studies. You don't need to post the link for a time being, but you can post the title/authors/institutions/publushed years..

Your sources from 2004/2006 and your y-chromosome is largely based from Chinese source.
  1. Toru Katoh, Batmunkh Munkhbat, Kenichi Tounai et al., "Genetic features of Mongolian ethnic groups revealed by Y-chromosomal analysis," Gene (2004). doi:10.1016/j.gene.2004.10.023
  2. Michael F. Hammer, Tatiana M. Karafet, Hwayong Park et al., "Dual origins of the Japanese: common ground for hunter-gatherer and farmer Y chromosomes," Journal of Human Genetics (2006) 51:47–58
Both papers were NOT written by chinese. And I don't think Hammer's studies had any things related to chinese, not even remotely... You denounced the research as if those scholars fabricated scientific facts, which must be quiet insulting to the reputed scholars. Again, are you that smart to ditch those researchers like this??
Again this basically tells there are dual origins,
  • To me you don't have knowledge in reading Y-chromosome.
You are not reading the papers..? aren't you..? If you are super-duper smart, even smarter than the reputed researchers in molecular biology, you can go and read, and verify that easily...
doesn't show O2b1 is older than O2b. You can't denied the fact O2b1 is muted gene from O2b, my original quote is to teach you how to read Y-chromosome markers as you seems you misunderstood.
Now, I asked you once again, where did you get your proof of O2b1 is older than O2b?
Here is your own sentence..
  • That info. appears to be false, because O2 is father of all O2# markers just like what you've described earlier.
  • Now, I asked you once again, where did you get your proof of O2b1 is older than O2b?
It sounds contradictory... You insisted I described one thing, and then tell something contrary? But even from the beginning, I did not speak any conclusive relationship between O2b* and O2b1..

You proposed some kinds of definition in a fairly unscientific way, and insisted that taxonomy (isogg(dot)org/tree/ISOGG_HapgrpO07(dot)html) is a scientific fact. However, taxonomy or tree is merely intended to let the researchers to speak the same terminology.
All I posted was:
Haplogroup O2b
Time of origin 6,300 [600–37,000] years
Haplogroup O2b1
Time of origin 7,870 [5,720–12,630] years ago[8]
Place of origin perhaps the Japanese archipelago
It just shows that there are hypotheses on the papers I quoted. Your definition of disputable (wide interval) haplogroups, being older or younger, is not scientific. There are intervals in the time of origin, and in the case of O2b* and O2b1, it does not say older or younger than one another. There are some disputable scientific facts open to interpretations..
 
Japanese rice farming culture directly originating from China is just another hypothesis not definite fact

it is not discoverd old rice paddies in korean peninsula
Japonica is not found there yet
Japanica' DNA is not found even north east China

遼東半島や朝鮮北部での水耕田跡が近代まで見つかっていないこと、朝鮮半島での確認された炭化米は紀元前2000年が最古で畑作米の確認しか取れないこと、極東アジアのジャポニカ種稲のDNA分析において、一部遺伝子が朝鮮半島を含む中国東北部稲からは確認されないなどの点から、この説の支持者は少ない。


3) D2 marker evidence just show Japanese have dual origins, 40%~45% is bit extreme because 3% make big difference in genetic mapping. Should have wrote 35~39% because average seems tobe 36% for Japanese.

Jomon ppl was only 80,000 in Japan...

35%is still big number. that is, 1/3 Japanese has Jomon Gen.
we can see another example in South America. most of them were killed...?

Linguistic comparison is not really related to genetic, it's under culture. You could be African with English/French language as first language. which doesn't prove anything

we see it in Bonin Islands
http://nihongo.human.metro-u.ac.jp/~long/bonins/default.html
Creole language
Creole language - Wikipedia
if they came to japan with large groupe, here might be many Creole language


Yayoi immigrants changed face of Japan with O2b & O3 as well as other markers. Read some reports like agnoni have posted "Dual origin of Japanese

it was not sudden changed...
the Japanese face is clearly changed last 50years so much boceuse of food
In other words, a face narrowed.
At least 60% of my friend is a Jomon face. ^^

it is not that all jomo ppl has D2
until they came to Japan. they also mixed
 
Please read:
Male Demography in East Asia: A North–South Contrast in Human Population Expansion Times
worldwideweb.genetics.org/content/172/4/2431.full

Get latest fact about Korean Y chromosome (buy the report)
worldwideweb.springerlink.com/content/p604310l152202g4/

Ancient Japanese language originated from Korean invader
blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2011/05/2000-years-of-yayoi-japanese-are-gaikokujin/
 
Finding on Dialects Casts New Light on the Origins of the Japanese People
By NICHOLAS WADE
Published: May 4, 2011

Researchers studying the various dialects of Japanese have concluded that all are descended from a founding language taken to the Japanese islands about 2,200 years ago. The finding sheds new light on the origin of the Japanese people, suggesting that their language is descended from that of the rice-growing farmers who arrived in Japan from the Korean Peninsula, and not from the hunter-gatherers who first inhabited the islands some 30,000 years ago.

The result provides support for a wider picture, controversial among linguists, that the distribution of many language families today reflects the spread of agriculture in the distant past when farming populations, carrying their languages with them, grew in numbers and expanded at the expense of hunter-gatherers. Under this theory, the Indo-European family of languages, which includes English, was spread by the first farmers who expanded into Europe from the Middle East some 8,000 years ago, largely replacing the existing population of hunter-gatherers.

In the case of Japan, archaeologists have found evidence for two waves of migrants, a hunter-gatherer people who created the Jomon culture and wet rice farmers who left remains known as the Yayoi culture.

The Jomon people arrived in Japan before the end of the last ice age, via land bridges that joined Japan to Asia's mainland. They fended off invaders until about 2,400 years ago when the wet rice agriculture developed in southern China was adapted to Korea's colder climate.

Several languages seem to have been spoken on the Korean Peninsula at this time, and that of the Yayoi people is unknown. The work of two researchers at the University of Tokyo, Sean Lee and Toshikazu Hasegawa, now suggests that the origin of Japonic — the language family that includes Japanese and Ryukyuan, spoken in the Ryukyu island chain south of Japan — coincides with the arrival of the Yayoi.

The finding, if confirmed, indicates that the Yayoi people took Japonic to Japan, but leaves unresolved the question of where in Asia the Yayoi culture or Japonic language originated before arriving in the Korean Peninsula.

Mr. Lee is a graduate student studying language and the mind, not a historical linguist. He has used a statistical tree-drawing method that other biologists have applied successfully to language origins, despite some linguists' skepticism. The method, called Bayesian phylogeny, depends on having a computer draw a large number of possible trees and sampling them to find the most probable. Each language is represented by a 200-word vocabulary composed of words known to change very slowly.

If any fork in the tree can be linked to a historical event, all the other branch points can be dated. In this case, Mr. Lee knew dates for Old Japanese, Middle Japanese, and the split between the Kyoto and Tokyo dialects that began in 1603 A.D. when the capital was moved from Kyoto to Edo, the early name for Tokyo.

Mr. Lee reasoned that Japanese would have originated with the Jomon if the root of the tree turned out to be very ancient, but with the Yayoi culture if recent. The computer's date of 2,182 years ago for the origin of the tree fits reasonably well with the archaeological dates for the Yayoi culture, he reported Tuesday in The Proceedings of the Royal Society.

John B. Whitman, an expert on Japanese linguistics who works at the National Institute for Japanese Language and Linguistics, in Tokyo, and at Cornell University, called the new finding "solid and reasonable," although the date of the Yayoi culture, he said, has now been pushed back to around 3,000 years after a recalibration of radiocarbon dates. That would open an 800-year gap with Mr. Lee's date but not necessarily change his conclusion.

The question of Japanese origins has had political consequences, with the link to the Yayoi culture having been invoked to justify the annexation of Korea and Manchuria before World War II. After the war, the link with the Jomon culture was emphasized.

Quentin Atkinson, an expert on language phylogeny at the University of Auckland, in New Zealand, said that Mr. Lee's time scale was plausible but that if Japonic had spread through an agriculturally driven population expansion, his language tree should be much bushier at its root. Mr. Lee said that such earlier versions of Japanese might have disappeared when the island was politically unified about 1,000 years ago.

Genetic studies have suggested interbreeding between the Yayoi and Jomon people, with the Jomon contribution to modern Japanese being as much as 40 percent. Apparently the Yayoi language prevailed, along with the agricultural technology.
The New York Times


what a miserable theory...


I wrote this before...
the korean and the Japanese are brother of same mother and different Fahter


the Japanese by method of Mitochondrial DNA
Mitochondrial DNA - Wikipedia
the korean and the Japanese are very simillar...( that is,matrilineal. mother lineage)
( Korean is not south korean. I mean korean who is living southern part of south korea like Pusan or kaya)
korean is more similar with ainu than the Japanese

Y Chromosome father lineage(paternal line)

korean and the Japanese are quite different because of D(Yap+)
most okinawan and Ainu have D(Yap+)


Why is it so similar by the method of mitochondria, and is it very different by the method of the chromosome?
only women came to Japan as Yayoi? I dont think so
As for the movement in the group, men was more numerous .

How about Latin America?
How about example of the Pacific Ocean islands?
How about India?

After the 16th century, present Latin American nations were conquered by Spain and Portugal. It is chiefly men that came.
As a result, there are a lot of Y chromosomes of the Caucasian lineage in Latin American nations.
However,The Caucasian origin is few by mitochondria method
most of type is native ppl'

so are polynasia, Guam....
Aryan (one race of Caucasian) invaded India from Central Asia 3000 years or more ago, and the upper layer hierarchy was formed for India.
As a result, there are many patrilineal more than the matrilineal...

accoding to descendant Genghis Khan Research
the Y chromosome goes over the cultural barrier by the occupation of the short term of around 100 and does not spread..
The ruler should be in the top in the society until race's uniting for long long time.

Top management in the ancient society of which the Jomon people fused with Yayoi shows that the Jomon was farther more than Yayoi.
In short, the Jomon people conquered the people village of Yayoi where it had emigrated with high probability
Small number of people comparatively people who made the Jomon people an ancestor were in top management in the society, and people of a lot of yayoi were ruled.
The pattern excluding this is impossible.

so is language.
The mark of an ancient Korean language is not seen at all in Japan.

word of same meaning and same sound..
i think the connection from the relation of the word to which ancient times fossilize is clarified.

The language is deeply related to race's identity.
The origin of the word can be traced to a past history and the life of the race in all the languages.
We can speculatewe the other relatives from what the past word was spoken.

BTW
it is said Japanese lanuguage is an orphan of language.
It is possible to divide into some groups by tracing the system of the language. It tells the relation between the race and the other race.

Most languages of Europe, Persian languages, Hindis, and Sanskrit words are classified into Indo-European language.
A Mongolian language, Turkish, and the Uighur language can be classified into
Altai language.
They are words spoken around Altay Mountains in Central Asia.
The Hebrew, Aramaic, and the Arabia language belong to the Semitic family of languages.
The race who speaks these is recorded as a descendant of Shem.

How about Japanese language?
That is, the language of a similar character is not found in another.

Criteria related to relative of language
According to Alfred L. Kroeber
A. L. Kroeber - Wikipedia
some words with same meaning and sound exist in the words which belong to another language.
however this number is about 5 words
therefore,it is necessary to find many words not by chance in order to judge two languages are related.

How many is it needed?

syllable system
The language has always developed as an information switching system.
The system doesn't usually admit a coincidence that cannot be explained.

There is one special method to search for the relative relation in both races'
ancient times. that is ,syllable .

A minimum unit of the voice is called a syllable. For instance, a word of "ko-to-ba" in Japanese are three syllables .
it can say "word' in English is one syllable.
It becomes a word and sentences with meaning only after the syllable ties.

probability where word of two syllables of the same meaning arises by chance
in the same pronunciation.
in English, the kinds of the syllable are 3000 because it differs according to the idiom.
There are 112 kinds of Japanese slightly.

For instance, it is assumed 112 that the kind of the syllable of space alien's
language is the same as Japanese.
The probability that the word of two syllables that consists of the same syllable and the same meaning arises is about 1/10,000.
The probability by three syllables becomes 1/100,000.
Therefore, there is no probability to be born for the word of the same meaning and the same syllable by chance if there are neither a cultural influence nor a good relation.
In other words, it can be say that there is some, cultural exchanges or kinships between both languages and races if they are found between two languages.

If it is several word, it is recognized as a chance result.
How if it is 500?
( I dont know Onyomi words are includedin them? if so, story is different)

if we see the ppl of Indo-European family, we can guess their life style in ancient from one of their ruins.


The grammar looks like in the relation to Korean.
However, korean word is quite different from Japanese though ancient korean is unknown.



Japan's Hidden History by Jon and Alan Covell.
at first, they are not archeologists at all.
they are art historian..
at least, they are nameless as archeologists because it does not hit him in google at all in english world.

サービス終了のお知らせ
I read his article.
I knew how crazy he was it would be the best selling in korea ..



Castor's insistence that Korea had once been "conquered" by Wa is itself an excuse to explain why there are so many archaeological artifacts in Japan which have origins from Korea,
there is no evidence at all.
why are there so many Japanses castles,Waeseong in korea?
Japanese castles in Korea - Wikipedia
these are also korean origin?


Japanese ancient language and ancient heblew have same sound and same meanig...
why???

toru ;to take
kaku; to write
sumu; to live
horobu; ruin
harau; exorcies

agam(agumu))to get tired of (doing)
aka(aki))weariness
akar(akeru) to leave,to empty
anta(anata) you
avar(owari) finish
avna,Aramaic (iwane).stone
barer(bareru)to be exposed
haer(haeru)to shine
hakar(hakaru)to measure ,to survey
hake(kaku)to strike
hake(hikae)to wait
haya,Aramaic(hayai) fast
hazaza(hazusu)to unfasten to remove
havia(hebi) snake
horer(horeru, horu)to excavate
kama(kome) rice.grain
karas,syria(karasu) crow
kava(kawa)river,to transport the water
kor,(kori,koru) ice, cold
kubita,syria(kabuto) hat, helmet (of armor)
mavar(mawaru)to turn. pathway,detour
mits(mitsu)nectar ,honey
mono,Aramaic (mono) thing.
motsa(matsu)exit ,end
nagav(nuguu)to wipe
nakamu(nikumu) hate ,revenge
nakar(nokeru)to repel
nasa (nasu 生す)to give birth
nase(nasu) to try
nigar(nagare)stream
sa'ar,syria(suru) to do
............
.. there are so many... if you want, i can write more than 100 kunyomi


How about english
"name" in japanese is namae
boya-boy
Darui-dull
liru-kill
hoeru-howl
tou-tower
etc
to write, to take, etc in both Japanese and ancient hebrew(also in Aramaic) are same sound and same meaning.

the end of Jomon era's population was only 80,000
If a lot of people come at a time from the direction of chinese continent, d2 of Japan must be fewer. and there must exsist similar words.
only limited people might come to Japan each year for more than thousands years. I think there were less than 100 ppls because of sea
If it is this, the influence on the gene and language are also a little .And, they were not dominant as rule class.
 
^ Parental gene isn't just simple as man and woman, how many modern Japanese have D2 Y-chromosome marker? DNA analysis can be fruit pick as you like, but you can't deny the influence of ancient Koreans to Japanese population. Korean men also have D2 marker too, just that not prominent as Japanese men, this doesn't mean simple as Japanese father and Korean father because both share 40~60% O2/O3 markers which is Mongolic markers for all NE Asian, other genes are 50% non-Mongolic markers. How come Mongolian, Evenk, Manchu, Siberian, Koreans and Japanese women share closest mt-DNA??? are this mean Mongolian, Evenk, Manchu, Siberian, Koreans and Japanese have same mothers just different fathers?

Under genetic tree using autosomal gene to everything else including blood & tissue protein, Japanese are Koreans shared common ancestral gene making it almost impossible to be listed as separate genetic tree. Please note, the genetic gap between modern Korean and modern Japanese is lot smaller than genetic gap between Southern han Chinese and Northern han Chinese. Not too mentioned both are grouped together. With regards to native Japanese words, even Koreans have native words that sound extremely similar to native Japanese words.
 
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