Comfort Women
- Thread starter thomas
- Start date
lexico
後輩
- 22 Dec 2004
- 2,584
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I don't see what you are trying to say. Are you protesting the modern definition of Japanese territory with unresolved problems such as the Meiji Annexation of Ainu Moshiri aka Hokkaido of 1869 or the Meiji Annexation of the Kingdom of Ryukyu in 1879 ? The rest is being handled by historians so there's no need for you to worry. In legal terms an individual cannot be charged for crimes committed by one's ancestors, but a nation by definition is the continuation of it's previous governments. In conclusion as long as the national identity is preserved there is no limit to liability. By deductive reasoning the current government of Japan is responsible for any unpaid dues from Imperial Japan, and future governments in like manner ad infinitum. Q.E.D.Kionon said:
False analogy. This is defined as 'comparing two things with only some similarities but also with significant differences that are ignored for the sake of this particular argument.' Just for an example, most Japanese did not come from Ireland one generation back, or did they ?
Where were you in 1945 ? Those perps are mostly dead by now, so sadly your idea of justice has little hope to be realized. What can be done is honest, unconditional, full acceptance of the war crimes and other damages afflicted upon victims of Imprerial Japan. Nonacceptance is clearly the wide path to forceful justice in the future.
Again too late for that. Japan cannot expect a nudge from the US to help it realize. It should fairly and squarely face the consequences of its past actions willingly while it still has a chance.
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How about your sin of prejudice? Your sin of insolence calling the other party in debate dishonest without indicating any ground or evidence?. Do you support the professional liar only because he is Japanese?lexico said:Sennen-san, don't fight it. It's a lost cause for you.
The more you fight it, the greater the harm.
There's brimstone added on top of your head with your every attempt at falsification. The sin of dishonesty will follow you to your grave.
I am sorry for you that you live in a country protected from books against your government's policy. Have you read the book I recommended you in a thread other than this? The book "Excuse for Pro-Japanese" by Kim Wansop seems to be banned in Korea. I wish you could gain access to books which enable you to grasp the history of your country more objectively.
_______________________________________
Chuku-chuku-chins: writers who are not allowed to read books that are against their government policy.
sabro
後輩
- 23 Apr 2004
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Interesting- The accounts of thousands of "comfort women" of their ordeal goes way beyond rape and forced prostitution. It was kidnapping followed by dozens of rapes per day, along with beatings, starvation, and drug addiction. It lasted for years. For many it ended in death due to disease, malnutrition, untreated injury, botched abortion, or abandonment when the Army left the area. The documentary evidence is solid, as are the accounts of thousands of these women and thousands of former soldiers. Because it was part of an organized government plan, the Japanese government should answer for it. It is an unprecedented and unparalleled war crime simply based on its scale if not its inhumanity. The scant recognition and shallow appologies offered by the government so far have encouraged the revisionist drivel like we have been subjected to on this forum. Japan created a nightmarish hell for tens of thousands of women and girls, and now some are attempting to minimize it, make light of it, or erase it all together. It makes me very sad.
To Lexico
It is, indeed, nice to see you not like a NAVER kid. This isn't my sarcasm at all. Dialogues should be the only way to know each others.
You mean Korean people are still eligible to file a lawsuit against J govenment?
If so, I am happy if you would share your opinion. And if possible, could you tell me your first-hand updates upon the secret diplomatic documents of the normalization talks in your country.
It is, indeed, nice to see you not like a NAVER kid. This isn't my sarcasm at all. Dialogues should be the only way to know each others.
You mean Korean people are still eligible to file a lawsuit against J govenment?
If so, I am happy if you would share your opinion. And if possible, could you tell me your first-hand updates upon the secret diplomatic documents of the normalization talks in your country.
sabro said:
Even the report adopted by United Nations is based on the book published by the professional liar, Seiji Yoshida. My position is based reports on first-hand research carried out in Korea, particularly on attestants. What matters is the truth or fact on which the thousand books are based. Please mention the title of the book which you think most trustworthy and contains references to first-hand evidence or reliable resources of information, preferably one in Japanese which I can read through in a short time. Then, I might be informed otherwise.
Tsuwabuki
先輩
- 12 May 2005
- 51
- 5
lexico said:
I'm not arguing anyting about turn of the century Japan. That has nothing to do with my argument.
And I simply disagree with you that modern day Japan is the same nation as Imperial Japan. That simply isn't so. There was a reason for the war and for the occupation by the allies. We destroyed Imperial Japan and in its place set up a constitutional monarcy with an active parliament and a distinct lack of strong military leaders. You and I will not agree that the current government of Japan is responsible for unpaid dues by Imperial Japan, because I will never agree that one descended from the other. At least not peacably and in the way we we normally recognize transfers of power in most nations.
False analogy. This is defined as 'comparing two things with only some similarities but also with significant differences that are ignored for the sake of this particular argument.' Just for an example, most Japanese did not come from Ireland one generation back, or did they ?
No, it isn't. You calling it a false analogy fits your definition, since you ingnored my main point to look at one small part. Let me clear it up. Most of the individuals in Japan are not responsible for the actions of those that came before. Many (and I'll get to this with you next question) weren't even born. My point is that, at least in America, it is wrong to criminalize someone for the actions of their relatives. Did I have slave owning relatives? Maybe, hard to know. Probably distantly. Certainly not my immediate family. And even if so, can you prove I, not my relatives, but I personally profited from it? I doubt it. Stop treating the Japanese as "The Japanese" start treating them like individuals.
I wasn't born, just like most of the Japanese population. I'm sure the perps are dead by now, and realize that bringing them to justice has little possibility to succeed. That doesn't change the fact that a properly worded suit could prove that the NEW Japanese government (the only one I recognize) has something to answer for when it failed to try the perps before they died. I support that attempt, just as I would support it in the states. If New Japan has anything to apologize for, it is their lack of dedication redressing the wrongs that were in their power to redress after they were installed in power. But trying to accuse the current Japanese government of committing the atrocities of Imperial Japan is, well, wrong. It's just wrong.
kirei_na_me
Where I'm Supposed to Be
- 31 Jan 2003
- 5,051
- 166
Kionon said:
Exactly...I mean exactly what I wanted to say.
dreamer
後輩
- 15 Aug 2003
- 2,181
- 25
Kionon said:
Well...it's difficult to forget what has been done :/
My mother always tell me about how a part of my family has been slaughtered by japanese during the 2nd world war, and each time there's an article in the newspaper where "a chinese girl has been murdered in Japan" or something like that she brings back the topic...
What I mean is that if for me who was born in another country, I hear this thing so often from my family, then there's no wonder why hatred is so persistent...
Personnaly I agree with the fact that you're not guilty for what your ancestors have done, but as long as the victims continue to bear a grudge like that, and even if the japanese government is trying to make up for Japan's past mistakes, it's not gonna work...
bossel
後輩
- 28 Sep 2003
- 1,485
- 45
A professional liar? Wow!sennen said:
But even if your allegations were true this is only a minor part of the whole report. As usual revisionists take minor details which are not quite as consistent as they think is necessary to discredit the whole.
Which reports?
Have you actually read the report? There is much more in it than Yoshida's memoirs.sennen said:
lexico
後輩
- 22 Dec 2004
- 2,584
- 155
Foreword: Please comment on what I said only. I defined the continuation of governmental responsibilty but here you shift my reference to Japanese governments to Japanese individuals. Would you call that rational ?
You are saying that the national identify first forged during the Meji years has been discontinued in 1945 ? Then why did Germany go to pains to acknowledge, educate, apologize, and to make reparations ? For nothing ? Where do you get this wild idea ? You seem to be in denial; love for Japanese studies does not require defending modern Japan's interests.Kionon said:
Please read first paragraph. You're forced logic might have worked if Japan renounced it Japanese identity which never happened AFAIK. Not so, as you know. Please don't beg for repetition by reading my first paragraph closely and literally.
So repeating your statement "It's just wrong" makes it so ? Forced logic again. Denial has become an international epidemic. The current gov. is guilty of denial of Imperial Japan's action. Please read closely what people write !
Tsuwabuki
先輩
- 12 May 2005
- 51
- 5
I did only comment on what you said. I also clearly stated we would not agree because I do not believe in the continuation of governmental responsibility because current Japan is NOT Imperial Japan. If you do not agree with me there, then there is no point in continuing discussion, but I had issues with other things you stated, and so I countered your arguments. As for Japanese individuals, they would be the ones made to pay if reperations were paid out. A government is supported by taxes. You were the one to bring up Meiji era stuff, which I still don't get what that has to do with anything.
Imperial Japan was discontinued in 1945. That government fell and was replaced by force. It does not continue into the present. You can argue sociological ramifications of imperialist thought all you want, that it is not my argument. My argument is that Imperial Japan no longer exists, and it certainly isn't the current Japanese Government reconstituted.
What Germany did was up to Germany. It chose its actions as a free government. It did not have to. It was not Nazi Germany. Actually, in some sense I think Germany has gone too far in banning certain types of speech action, etc, but that is another story. And that is not to say I believe Germany was wrong to acknowledge or apologize. Making reperations was also probably dependent on a feeling of the entire post-war culture. I'd need to check my facts, but I believe a good majority of German people probably chose such an action.
Germany and Japan are not the same. And I'm sure I can find plenty of examples of Japan's apologies. I know that Prime Minister Koizumi has apologized just this month, but I still do not think he has to do so.
As to your last couple of sentences about me being in denial or in protecting Japanese interests, I won't even dignify it with a defense. Those are personally insulting allegations you have no proof of. I'd prefer you keep your arguments from becoming personal.
Now you're just ignoring me. Current Japan is not Imperial Japan. I do not feel the identity is the same. How could it be? And it seems you claim that Japanese identity is transfixed to the Meiji era. I find that false. Too much has happened in the world for that to be true. How many times must I make that point?
No, it's an affirmation of my opinion, that I have argued logically and rationally. And others have agreed with to boot. I am not denying Imperial Japan's atrocities. Quite the opposite. I am denying that the current government is some kind of reincarnation of Imperial Japan and that they must atone for the actions of a government that was not under their control. Honestly, Imperial Japan DID atone- by beaing dfeated in battle by the United States and her allies. We crushed them to the point of dropping two atomic bombs and killing millions, including women and children, yet we have not been asked to apologize.
I'll say it as clear as I possibly can: Current Japan must atone for not doing enough to redress what they had the power to redress during the transitional period in the middle of the 20th century, if that can be proven in a court of law. Current Japan is NOT responsible for the actions of Imperial Japan. Imperial Japan does not exist.
sabro
後輩
- 23 Apr 2004
- 1,006
- 35
Senen- we've done this before. I gave sources, did some research- it was quite an education, but suffice it to say that the sources were numerous, substantial and quite verifiable. You'll have to look backwards on the thread though, because I am too tired tonight to repeat them.
lexico
後輩
- 22 Dec 2004
- 2,584
- 155
Why the Meiji question ? It was introduced because you made a cryptic statement abaout Japan being nothing more than the artificially delineated islands and land. I raised a legitimate question regarding your statement, remember ? "Are you protesting Japanese expansionism that started in the Meiji era ? Hokkaido annexed 1869, Okianawa/Ryukyu annexed 1879."
True, current Japan is not Imperial Japan. And again true that Japanese identity is transfixed to the Meiji era. If you fail to see the inner workings of expansionism which continues today, then I understand why you are making such statements.
It might help to look into the philosophical implications of Japan's acceptance explored by Takahashi Tetsuya ﾂ坂?壺?ｹ'窶廸ﾂ催? 1999. 1. responsiblity 2. crime 3. guilt; these three do not necessarily conicide nor should they.
I do agree. The two governments in question are not identical, but for the latter to be regocnized as a legitimate Japanese govenernment, it has to accept unpaid dues and responsibilities, if not guilt of sin of perpetrating the crime itself. This fine yet easily confused distinction is eluciadated in Takahashi Tetsuya's ﾂ坂?壺?ｹ'窶廸ﾂ催 Demanding Postwar Responsibility Sengo sekininron ﾂ戰ﾅ津｣ﾂ静凪?戮ﾋ彑, Kondasha, 1999.Kionon said:
So it's about tax money. I feel rather offended by your comparison with US slavery and your unwillingness to any reparation because you had nothing to do with US slavery. Becaue the analogy is so far fetched I find it hard to accept your argumnent as valid in our discussion.
That's when it all got started, the distortion of history as an ideological tool of expansion which continues today in like format and spirit. If you do not see the ghosts of the Meji era working thru the years of 'turmoil,' resulting in the deaths of tens of millions, resulting in the vanishing of races, racial identities, or both, under the guidance of western powers such as the US and Russia, you do not understand what you are talking about. The very land disputes Japan HAS been creating since 1952 are exactly the ones Japan started by forceful taking in the eraly Meiji years.
You don't see my point. War crimes are the very ramifications you are making slight of. They just started earlier the way I see it.
Well you are entitled to your views; just out of curiosity does yor view reflect the view of the US navy or is it personal ? Might I add that there are more ways to look at the problem of sengo sekininron than thru the sole view of US interest ?
I feel I'm being ignored, Kionon.
True, current Japan is not Imperial Japan. And again true that Japanese identity is transfixed to the Meiji era. If you fail to see the inner workings of expansionism which continues today, then I understand why you are making such statements.
Losing a war hardly, hardly atones for anything. You seem to attach to much value on military prowess aka victory/defeat. That was only the beginning, a chance to make up with the past, which regrettably was overlooked for the conveniences and national interests pursued in the name of cold war.
Yes, that's one way of dealing with the problem methodically.
Yes it is, and no it doesn't.
It might help to look into the philosophical implications of Japan's acceptance explored by Takahashi Tetsuya ﾂ坂?壺?ｹ'窶廸ﾂ催? 1999. 1. responsiblity 2. crime 3. guilt; these three do not necessarily conicide nor should they.
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Tsuwabuki
先輩
- 12 May 2005
- 51
- 5
Let us agree to disagree. I simply cannot agree that Current Japan is responsible for the actions of Imperial Japan. You will never convince me otherwise. Japan's government is legitimate based on its creation after the war was concluded. It is not a continuation of the previous government. This is a fundamental difference of definition, and one I do not feel we can reconcile.
You'll have to clarify. Are you offended because you feel the analogy doesn't pan out, or are you offended because I'd refuse to pay reparations to descendents of slaves? My refusal to pay for crimes I did not commit does not mean I dismiss the atrocities as if I they did not happen.
No, I do not see the ghosts of the Meiji era. You can say whatever you want about my qualifications to argue with you, but I simply do not agree that Imperial Japan is somehow working from the grave like a zombie government controling the current Japanese political elite.
You're telling me war crimes were committed after the new government was installed? You'd better be able to prove that. I refered the sociological ramifications of imperialist thought in post-war Japan.
And I am NOT making slight of war crimes. The Imperial Japanese military committed wanton mass murder, rape, destruction, and in some cases carried out and planned to continue to carry out genocide. You cannot say that my defense of the current Japanese government is making slight of the atrocities that were committed. That's unfair.
Let me make one thing very, VERY clear, as it disturbs me you would even ask:
A single midshipman cannot speak for the entire US Navy. That's ludicrous. Every view I express on an internet forum is my own personal viewpoint. Sometimes I may speak in reference to my military experience, but even then, I am still offering a personal viewpoint. Perhaps if I was CNO or SecNav or a high ranking Admiral that could be different, but I'm so junior as to be completely insignificant. In fact, if I was accused of speaking in an official capacity I could be kicked out of the Navy. Please take care when asking such questions. I realize you may not have known that, or known how junior I am, but I am telling you now. It is very important that you realize I speak only for myself and never for the United States Navy.
Another fundamental difference. You can believe what you will about Meiji ghosts. I've never been a paranormal person. The Meiji era is dead and gone, and there's little that can convince me otherwise. If this is enough to make you feel that my opinion is no longer valid, that is up to you.
I attach much to military victory/defeat when it involved the deaths of millions and destruction of an entire nation, a large portion of which due to nuclear attack, and which required a massive rebuilding effort. Whatever crimes the Japanese of that time period committed, they were punished for their actions in a horrific action to end the war. Suffering beyond my ability to imagine, and surely beyond yours as well. If that wasn't punishment, than I simply do not know what is.
You may be right that the new Japanese government failed to redress wrongs for whatever reason, which very well could have included cold war strategic and tactical planning. I have said as much, and if that is true, then Japan has something to answer for, and should apologize for the impotence during a critical time of change. But that remains to be proven in a court of law. I am person who believes that justice will eventually win out the end. Justice delayed is not always justice denied, but in this case it may come close. On this we are in agreement.
Sorry, it's not. You will not convince me otherwise unless you can prove McArthur handed the reigns to war criminals, and I want names and crimes committed in order to believe that. Due process is a big deal to us Americans, and I will not give considerable thought to any accusation without evidence being presented.
I'll go ahead and read the book, but I do believe that they coincide. If they do not, then any sense of justice might as well be tossed out the window. A criminal must have committed the crime, been responsible at the time of the crime, and must be guilty of the crime because of the previous two. You can not indict all of Japan for the crimes of a few. The nation is not wholly responsible or wholly guilty.
I understand you try to be as rational as possible, saying the difference of responsibilities in state and the indivisual.
Then always find others saying, "well then who vote and choose the govenment? Japanese, isn't it? So by deductive reasoning the current indivisuals are responsible for any unpaid dues from Imperial Japan, and future indivisuals in like manner ad infinitum. Q.E.D."
If you say like the above, no diplomatic relations would be needed but anachy.
How about demanding more Korea-Japan diplomatic documents to your govenment? Japanese cannot say anything about it, for it is your internal matter in your govenment, isn't it?
Always wonder where are cheerful drunken Koreans like my Korean friends on the Chongno street.
bossel
後輩
- 28 Sep 2003
- 1,485
- 45
Well, I think, by eg. demanding the return of the Kuriles, the modern Japanese government walks in the footsteps of the Imperial government. But that aside, of course the current government is not responsible for the actions of previous governments. There is legacy, though. I don't think, simply because a government changes (albeit as drastically as after WWII) all the national debt, guilt a.s.o. disappears. The nation of Japan stayed widely intact (except eg. for the Kuriles), hence there is a national continuity. AFAIK the Japanese government even accepts (at least parts of) this continuity, eg. by demanding the Kuriles back.Kionon said:
What's more, there was continuity of national institutions:
- the Tenno was still there (albeit without most of his previous powers)
- the constitution was only amended, not re-drawn, IIRC
- the bureaucracy (the very basics of governmental power) stayed largely intact, see this article.
sabro
後輩
- 23 Apr 2004
- 1,006
- 35
You guys have stumbled on to that "sins of the father" kind of question that has no easy answer. How much responsibility for apology and redress does the current government have for the actions of its predescessor? How responsible are the descendents of war criminals for the crimes? When does justice stop? Certainly Germany answered it one way, and Japan another.
http://www.yomiuri.co.jp/editorial/news/20061030ig90.htm
According to a leading article of Yomiuri news
According to a leading article of Yomiuri news
- 18 Jan 2005
- 11,682
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Is not translation wrong?
bexchurnside
Kouhai
- 5 Dec 2006
- 76
- 0
I am glad that at least the English never shot a single Japanese. Thank heavens for this!!
Goldiegirl
先輩
- 10 Aug 2006
- 1,694
- 69
The English didn't shoot Japanese because they were not attacked by the Japanese. They did shoot Germans. Anyway, I don't think that's the point here. The past is in the past. Repeat the good, and learn from the bad.
- 17 Jan 2007
- 93
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very true. but looking over this thread, we have people who dont learn from the past and continuously justify the killing and massacre.
