Tell me, obeika, why only (some) Koreans did not take the compensation from Japan.
What has happened, in my humble opinion, is that many people that are
reading and following this thread, whether intentional or not, are educating themselves about the topic at hand.
I also include myself in this.
To my mind the main problem is that Aso, whose family became rich using forced labourers, became FM. Untill Japan gets a new FM there are going to be distrust toward Japan from its neighbours.
However, Aso is our Minister of Foreign Affairs. You don't need to worry about it. It's none of your business.
hmm, not sure if you are understanding what you are quoting.Which applies to the "Comfort Women" case as evidence that the Japanese government once held at one time was destroyed. As this has been pointed out before.
Law
In most modern criminal legal systems there is a presumption of innocence, and it is the responsibility of the prosecution to prove (usually "beyond reasonable doubt") that a defendant has in fact committed a particular crime. It is a logical fallacy to presume that mere lack of evidence of innocence of a crime is instead evidence of guilt. Similarly, mere lack of evidence of guilt cannot be taken as evidence of innocence. And, by exactly the same reasoning, mere lack of evidence of guilt against any person in existence for every possible crime cannot be necessarily taken as evidence of innocence--though if this were the accepted standard it would lead towards the absurd scenario where everyone is presumed guilty and all would be required to continually prove their innocence in court. For this reason (among others), western legal systems err on the side of caution. Simply the act of taking a defendant before a court is not adequate evidence to presume anything. Courts require evidence of guilt to be presented first, adequate for the court to find that the charge has been substantiated-- i.e., that the prosecution's evidentiary burden has been met-- and only after this burden is met is the defense obliged to present counterevidence of innocence. If the burden of proof is not met, that does not imply that the defendant is innocent. Hence, in such a case, the defendant is found "not guilty".
You have to show that kidnapping by the military or the government was true, not only in the Dutch Indies, which was already judged "guilty", but also for the alleged 200,000 comfort women. The burden of proof is placed on you, not on hanachan.
We are talking about the discussion between Obeika and hanachan. Not about the government.The japanese government has allready accepted the guilt. Ministry of Forign Affairs: "Recognizing that the issue known as "wartime comfort women" was a grave affront to the honor and dignity of a large number of women, the Government of Japan, together with the people of Japan, seriously discussed what could be done for expressing their sincere apologies and remorse to the former "wartime comfort women.""
Koizumi wrote in 2001: "The issue of comfort women, with an involvement of the Japanese military authorities at that time, was a grave affront to the honor and dignity of large numbers of women."
The recent confusion is merely due to the fact that the present Foreign Minister Aso recently claimed that proof of guilt is lacking. Actually the previous LDP government accepted guilt. In a trail evidence is not needed when the accused accepts guilt. The case was closed. But Aso and a few right-wing nationalsts will not face this. They might think that they are defending the honour of Japan, but actually the are achieving the opposite!
OK, I now realize that the argument is merely about wether proof of coercion in other occupied countries than Indonesia exists or not. As I think noone denies that wrongs did happen in the past, and that it is regrettable. I, frankly, find that insisting on continuing arguing about this does not make much sense. Lets all try to cool it a bit, before the thread is closed again. The vote illustrates that we do have different points of view. I find that we in this discussion should try focus finding common ground, rather than "hairsplitting".We are talking about the discussion between Obeika and hanachan. Not about the government. I know the Japanese government has already apologized numerous times since 1990's.
OK, I now realize that the argument is merely about wether proof of coercion in other occupied countries than Indonesia exists or not. As I think noone denies that wrongs did happen in the past, and that it is regrettable. I, frankly, find that insisting on continuing arguing about this does not make much sense. Lets all try to cool it a bit, before the thread is closed again. The vote illustrates that we do have different points of view. I find that we in this discussion should try focus finding common ground, rather than "hairsplitting".
Isn't it what this thread is about? If not, we can now close the thread. Thank you. ☝OK, I now realize that the argument is merely about wether proof of coercion in other occupied countries than Indonesia exists or not.
Well, you always generalize and jump to the conclusion. You have to show that the kidnapping by the military or the government was true, not only in the Dutch Indies, which was already judged "guilty", but also for the alleged 200,000 comfort women. The burden of proof is placed on you, not on hanachan
23. Under the jugun ianfu scheme, the government of Japan abducted or fraudulently induced the recruitment of women and girls from territories under Japanese occupation, transported them away from their homes, detained them in special facilities, and allowed its soldiers to repeatedly rape them. A significant number of women and girls were murdered outright or allowed to die of injuries or starvation. Most were beaten and grossly abused. Many were forced to watch other women and girls murdered, beaten or abused. Food and medical care for them was grossly inadequate. Their living conditions were atrocious. In sum, the jugun ianfu scheme represented the nadir of inhumanity.
24. In legal terms, victims of the jugun ianfu scheme, were murdered, deported, enslaved, imprisoned, tortured by rape and other forms of torture, and subjected to inhumane acts.
Japan has still not provided any compensation for its war-rape victims. As indicated by the rapporteur, as many as 200,000 girls and women were part of the Japanese programme of "comfort women" or jugun ianfu. Our research shows that more than 1/2 of the girls and women died as a direct result of the treatment they received. Many survivors were detained in the programme for 3 to 5 years. Most participants were raped 5 - 20 times a day.
Taking the lowest figures, at any given time, there were about 20,000 jugun ianfu. Each of them was raped at least 5 times per day. That means that there were at least 100,000 rapes per day arranged by the Japanese authorities and carried out by its soldiers -- 100,000 rapists per day. 100,000 times at least five days per week equals at least 500,000 rapes per week -- or 2 million per month -- or 24 million per year. Even assuming only 5 years of the programme, there were at least 125 million rapes -- 125 million rapes against the women of Korea, Philippines, Burma, China, Taiwan, Indonesia, Netherlands.
Mr.Chairman, do you think a country should have to pay something for having committed as a minimum 125 million rapes -- maybe even twice that many. Japan has paid nothing to these victims.
Lets look at the statistics from the point of view of a single victim. At an average of 10 rapes per day (still a low figure), and a five day work week, each comfort girl was raped 50 times per week or 2,500 times per year. For three years of service -- the average -- a comfort girl was raped 7,500 times.
Mr. Chairman, how much compensation do you think ought to be paid to a woman who was raped 7,500 times
Do you know a Korean plaintiff claimed her money she earned was 4 times more than the 1 year salary of army general then.a woman who was raped 7,500 times
Do you know a Korean plaintiff claimed her money she earned was 4 times more than the 1 year salary of army general then.
...
Lets just say Hiroshima and Nagasaski were never bombed, and Japan only wanted to help their Asian neighbors escape Western colonization (by subsituting Japanese occupation, much better). Then we know we really live in a utopian, patriotic Japan.
Truth, what's that?
-Do you know how many times the Japanese asked for the reparation for the A-bomb or rapes by the US soldiers during the occupation?
And don't forget that it was totally wrong, though I think she was wise, that the Korean government spent compensation from Japan for their economic growth and keep agitating "no compensation form Japan".
Just to let you know, I've asked that question rather directly to a number of posters here and here a a couple of the replies,Are you telling me all the comfort women who came forward were lieing
Yeah, you are quite simple-minded. It's all yes or no, right or wrong. I don't believe in dichotomy, the question is nonsense, that's why I didn't vote.
Ask yourself: Does an honest person always tell the truth? Does a liar tell a lie all the time?
Um...I agree that this question can not be answered with a simple yes or no.Do you think that all these women, making claims against the Japanese government and telling their stories about being comfort women are liars?
A simple yes or no will suffice....thank you.
I think it might be best not to pull already passed points up again, as it could be seeding the rain clouds...and that could mass into a storm.
Mikawa san will have to answer for himself; I agree with him. The reason I would agree with him is simply because we cannot absolutely verify each and every story by each and every person. The word all in the embedded part of the quote from him is what has caused that problem, I'd tend to think.
I hope no more need be said than that, and that if and when Mikawa san does come and answers that, that it can be set on the shelf as it is. AGAIN, it may (and I do emphasize 'may') cause problems to try to rehash old statements in this thread. Thanks for your listening heart and ears. MM