Chinese: 手術中 to Japanese?

yukio_michael · 22 Oct 2006

手術中 seems to be the kanji in Chinese for "shujutsu chuu", all of these characters were familiar to me, and their sounds fit the Chinese. The source of this text are Chinese subtitles for a Japanese anime.

I can't seem to get a complete match on this phrase, which should translate in English to something like "currently operating". It looks like 手術 is Japanese for a "surgical operation"... but the 中 at the end makes sense for "currently...".

I know that this is a well known phrase, or tongue twister, can someone tell me how to write this in Japanese?

Supervin · 22 Oct 2006

'手術中' is actually Japanese, as in Chinese, it would more often be '手術進行中' instead. (The former comes from an abbreviation of the latter.)

I guess if it were a sentence in Japanese then it would be '現在手術中です。'

yukio_michael · 22 Oct 2006

What led me to believe that it was Chinese was that only Chinese sites came up when I did a google search, which made me think that this combinantion of characters wasn't natural in Japanese, but thank you for clearing that up.

undrentide · 22 Oct 2006

ust a side note, there are many words noun + 中 meaning it is now in progress or operation.
e.g.
手術中、工事中、検討中、進行中、作業中

The word 故障中 is often used, but many pointed out that it is grammatically incorrect, it should read 故障.

Elizabeth · 22 Oct 2006

yukio_michael said:
What led me to believe that it was Chinese was that only Chinese sites came up when I did a google search, which made me think that this combinantion of characters wasn't natural in Japanese, but thank you for clearing that up.

That's actually a very common annoyance, I suppose due to the sheer amount of Chinese relative to Japanese writing out there on the web. The only way around that I know would be to select a Japanese sites only search or insert a common hiragana character in the search string (の、は etc.)

moofs · 22 Oct 2006

I've often see people use ~中 in Chinese and in speaking (myself included), and they're perfectly normal. If someone's sleeping I'll say that person is 睡覺中 or if he's eating I'd say he's 吃飯中 or if something's in progress/motion it'd be 進行中. Basically someone or something is in the middle of/currently doing something. In hospitals, it would write 手術中 above the operating room.

Supervin · 22 Oct 2006

moofs said:
I've often see people use ~中 in Chinese and in speaking (myself included), and they're perfectly normal. If someone's sleeping I'll say that person is 睡覺中 or if he's eating I'd say he's 吃飯中 or if something's in progress/motion it'd be 進行中. Basically someone or something is in the middle of/currently doing something. In hospitals, it would write 手術中 above the operating room.

However, it's not used often at all because basically ~中 is a technical-sounding grammatical structure in Chinese, which replaces the more natural-sounding one that usually just involves: 在~. What I mean is that ~中 is used for something 'in progress' whereas 在~ is used for any action that is currently happening. And like I said, ~中 is a contraction of ~進行中.

I personally wouldn't say a person is 睡覺中, since it's too technical for everyday activities like sleeping; you wouldn't say that someone's 'sleep is in progress'. Instead, the common, really simple sentence, 他在睡覺 is the norm. This goes for 吃飯/eating as well.

In regard to hospitals, I've seen both 手術進行中 and 手術中 above the operating room for Chinese hospitals, whereas in Japan, the contracted version, which is the norm in Japanese, is the only one used.

undrentide · 22 Oct 2006

Elizabeth said:
That's actually a very common annoyance, I suppose due to the sheer amount of Chinese relative to Japanese writing out there on the web. The only way around that I know would be to select a Japanese sites only search or insert a common hiragana character in the search string (の、は etc.)

I wonder if it has something to do with the setting of google or browser (mine is Netscape 7.1 in Japanese) - I tried it myself, and it shows about 651,000 hits, and at least first 5-6 pages are all 手術中 in Japanese.

I tried it
Google
Google
Google
and got the same result.

Perhaps if I use browser in English or other language, I would get different result...?

Elizabeth · 23 Oct 2006

undrentide said:
Elizabeth said: ↑
That's actually a very common annoyance, I suppose due to the sheer amount of Chinese relative to Japanese writing out there on the web. The only way around that I know would be to select a Japanese sites only search or insert a common hiragana character in the search string (の、は etc.)
I wonder if it has something to do with the setting of google or browser (mine is Netscape 7.1 in Japanese) - I tried it myself, and it shows about 651,000 hits, and at least first 5-6 pages are all 手術中 in Japanese.

I tried it
Google
Google
Google
and got the same result.

Perhaps if I use browser in English or other language, I would get different result...?

I can't tell either since I'm using a Japanese version of Firefox and came up with the same number of hits in Japanese. But in any case there's probably no difference with an English browser if the phrase is hardly common in Chinese (even to the point of wondering why it would appear in an anime)...
どういう状況で彼がそれを見つけたのかわからないのでなんともいえないですね。

yukio_michael · 23 Oct 2006

Elizabeth said:
That's actually a very common annoyance, I suppose due to the sheer amount of Chinese relative to Japanese writing out there on the web. The only way around that I know would be to select a Japanese sites only search or insert a common hiragana character in the search string (の、は etc.)

Maybe if I started my search w/ say, Google.co.jp, or Yahoo.co.jp... that might predetermine a better set of Japanese hits.
Those sites are in my links section right on my browser for easy access but I completely forgot about them.
ed: yes this works!

ricecake · 24 Oct 2006

Supervin said:
(1) I personally wouldn't say a person is 睡覺中, since it's too technical for everyday activities like sleeping; you wouldn't say that someone's 'sleep is in progress'.

(2) Instead, the common, really simple sentence, 他在睡覺 is the norm.

A bit off topic ... excuse me for butting in

(1) This is common grammatical use in written context,Chinese books and news prints.

(2) Whereas we use this sentence in daily Chinese speaking language.

Supervin · 24 Oct 2006

ricecake said:
A bit off topic ... excuse me for butt-ing in
(1) This is common grammatical use in written context,Chinese books and news prints.
(2) Whereas we use this sentence in daily Chinese speaking language.

Yes, but if you've read what I've quoted, he was referring to the spoken language.

yukio_michael · 24 Oct 2006

Here are two screen caps... Maybe you can confirm this is Chinese that is used for subtitles here... I can't make sense out of the second tongue twister's kanji, except that it begins in a character that is read as ちゅう chuu, and that it ends in one as well. The middle character doesn't fit the dialogue...

As this is a 'written' subtitle to a spoken dialogue... what rules take precedence?

You'll forgive me that my subject matter revolves around something so puerile as anime, what can I say, I'm not made of stone.

ricecake · 24 Oct 2006

This is Chinese language subtitled Japanese anime.

Supervin · 24 Oct 2006

yukio_michael said:
Maybe you can confirm this is Chinese that is used for subtitles here...

Yep, it's in Chinese, traditional characters.

yukio_michael said:
I can't make sense out of the second toungetwister's kanji, except that it begins in a character that is read as ちゅう chuu, and that it ends in one as well.

The tongue twister is フルーツジュース注視中, which is pronounced: フルーツジュースちゅうしちゅう. Pretty interesting. It translates to 'Am gazing attentively at the fruit juice.'

yukio_michael said:
You'll forgive me that my subject matter revolves around something so puerile as anime, what can I say, I'm not made of stone.

Definitely not puerile!

ricecake · 24 Oct 2006

For me,I have one simple rule.Japanese modern culture,there should some hiragana script.

Glenn · 24 Oct 2006

yukio_michael said:
As this is a 'written' subtitle to a spoken dialogue... what rules take presidence?

It should be spoken language in the subtitles, because it's spoken language in the original.

By the way, the "spoken" and "written" modifiers are more about style than whether the content is actually spoken or written. You write spoken style in e-mails, but you may speak written style if you're giving a speech.

yukio_michael · 25 Oct 2006

Glenn said:
You write spoken style in e-mails, but you may speak written style if you're giving a speech.

Aaa--- I was just wondering this as I wrote an email to a friend in Japan last night... Mind you, I'm not familiar enough with litterary or written Japanese to even employ it but...

...similarly then, of course manga uses a 'spoken' style, which is what makes it such a good source for learning coloquial speach.

Thanks everyone for the input.

tanhql · 25 Oct 2006

The thing about chinese subtitles in japanese shows is that the subtitles tend to follow the same kanji used in the conversation. like if the character says '水の証', the chinese subtitles would probably write '水之証', even if it sounds ridiculous in chinese, even if the の means 的 in chinese in context, the suntitlers would still use 之. and that 証 should be better translated as '証據', but they will still translate it as only one word: '証'.

Elizabeth · 26 Oct 2006

undrentide said:
Just a side note, there are many words noun + 中 meaning it is now in progress or operation.
e.g.
手術中、工事中、検討中、進行中、作業中
The word 故障中 is often used, but many pointed out that it is grammatically incorrect, it should read 故障.

You mean because 中 is attached as a coin or "compound" word ? Even if it doesn't make a significant difference in meaning to the root word, I would think there may be more like that in everyday usage.

Not that this really counts for a lot but as a nonnative speaker if I were in a building with this sign on the elevator

このエレベータは現在、故障中です。it indicates under repair. While 故障 is too blunt by implying it is broken and may never be fixed ??

I suppose you could also use 調整中、修理中

The tongue twister is フルーツジュース注視中, which is pronounced: フルーツジュースちゅうしちゅう. Pretty interesting. It translates to 'Am gazing attentively at the fruit juice.'

本当? I'm sorry to say but I really doubt this makes any sense in Japanese.

undrentide · 27 Oct 2006

Elizabeth said:
You mean because 中 is attached as a coin or "compound" word ? Even if it doesn't make a significant difference in meaning to the root word, I would think there may be more like that in everyday usage.
Not that this really counts for a lot but as a nonnative speaker if I were in a building with this sign on the elevator
このエレベータは現在、故障中です。it indicates under repair. While 故障 is too blunt by implying it is broken and may never be fixed ??
I suppose you could also use 調整中、修理中

Hi Elizabeth san!
Since I've seeing this 故障中 all the time, almost everywhere, since my childhood I had not pay much attention until I read an article about it - forgot where it was.

I checked about 故障中 again on the net, and there seem to be pros and cons. Those who say it is grammatically incorrect maintain that ～中 means something is in progress (like 調整中、修理中) while 故障 is something that happens in a moment, only once. It is an event that change the status.
Just like you cannot keep dying - "we never say 死亡中, do we?" which I found very amusing.

I think this explanation is very convincing, though to be honest, I personally do not find 故障中 strange or incorrect.

I don't feel any difference between 故障 and 故障中, by the way, but again this is my personal feeling.

Supervin · 27 Oct 2006

undrentide said:
I checked about 故障中 again on the net, and there seem to be pros and cons. Those who say it is grammatically incorrect maintain that ～中 means something is in progress (like 調整中、修理中) while 故障 is something that happens in a moment, only once. It is an event that change the status.
Just like you cannot keep dying - "we never say 死亡中, do we?" which I found very amusing.
I think this explanation is very convincing, though to be honest, I personally do not find 故障中 strange or incorrect.
I don't feel any difference between 故障 and 故障中, by the way, but again this is my personal feeling.

I would say that ～中 involves an action in progress that would take a considerable amount of time. Usually, it's also implied that such a particular action is intended/willed.

However, 故障中 and 死亡中 would be odd since 故障 and 死亡 are actions which happen instantly in a very short space of time and unplanned.

Although that being said, 故障中 may be an accepted common phrase in Japanese, despite grammar.

Elizabeth;395018 said:
本当? I'm sorry to say but I really doubt this makes any sense in Japanese.

Hmm, in regard to the tongue twister フルーツジュース注視中 from that clip, it does make sense to me though. It would just mean that someone is staring at the fruit juice in a focused way - similar to some sort of game where people focus on an object until they blink. It's not exactly something you would say in everyday life (because of the use of 注視中), but in literary terms, it's not wrong.

But can someone please clarify?

Elizabeth · 27 Oct 2006

Supervin said:
I would say that ～中 involves an action in progress that would take a considerable amount of time. Usually, it's also implied that such a particular action is intended/willed.
However, 故障中 and 死亡中 would be odd since 故障 and 死亡 are actions which happen instantly in a very short space of time and unplanned.
Although that being said, 故障中 may be an accepted common phrase in Japanese, despite grammar.

故障 doesn't only refer to the breakdown itself, though, but in many cases to the ongoing result of being out of order and in a state of mechanically inoperability. 中 likewise in its most common usage means passively remaining within/throughout a specified space or to the time during which other certain conditions are happening.

I can see how 中 doesn't really add anything but I personally don't have a problem grammatically combining the sense of out of order with the period in which it is in that status. It's kind of like asking someone if they are pregnant with 妊娠中ですか？Is it during your pregnancy ? which does sound weirder for some reason...

Elizabeth · 27 Oct 2006

Hmm, in regard to the tongue twister フルーツジュース注視中 from that clip, it does make sense to me though. It would just mean that someone is staring at the fruit juice in a focused way - similar to some sort of game where people focus on an object until they blink. It's not exactly something you would say in everyday life (because of the use of 注視中), but in literary terms, it's not wrong.
But can someone please clarify?

I thought first it may have been my lack of exposure to 注視中 which I am sure many Japanese people also never encounter so I asked my boyfriend and another friend but neither of them got it either. Maybe they hadn't seen it before or if I explained the context it would make it more natural..

Supervin · 4 Nov 2006

Elizabeth said:
故障 doesn't only refer to the breakdown itself, though, but in many cases to the ongoing result of being out of order

That's true, though I would find it a bit quirky since it's like an announcement pointing out that something is 'malfunctioning in progress' to which my response would be 'uh, OK, thanks... now have someone fix it already!' Of course, in the literary sense, it's fine in that there's no mistake.

Elizabeth said:
I thought first it may have been my lack of exposure to 注視中 which I am sure many Japanese people also never encounter so I asked my boyfriend and another friend but neither of them got it either. Maybe they hadn't seen it before or if I explained the context it would make it more natural...:?

注視 is rather uncommon (in Chinese as well for that matter), so it's natural for people to not have heard it before or to need to think for a second. I suppose it's only there in the first place in the clip for the sake of a tongue twister because of its pronunciation.

I suppose I can combine the two to make it even harder:

フルーツジュース手術注視中, which is
フルーツジュースしゅじゅつちゅうしちゅう.

Chinese: 手術中 to Japanese?

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