Canada for my son?

[Revenant]

Navy Guy, have you moved within the similar cultures with people speaking the same language around who your kids could quickly connect with, or has that also involved different cultures and languages?

 

[noyhauser]

I will disagree to a point about the moving being socially difficult. My 2 girls have faced moving every three years since they were born, I have a 10 and 13 yr old. I find that if you prepare the child for the move and not make it a negative thing then they assimilate into their new culture quickly. Being the "new kid" doesn't have to be a bad thing...
I will agree that moving to a larger rural area is easier for them to blend into especially if there are other children from the same demographic (culture).
Unfortunately I believe that Rev moving his kid from Japan to Canada may be a negative thing because his estranged wife will make it into just that.

Are they moving into a culture they have no or limited language skills, but are expected to operate and perform at a reasonably high level? Going from one culture to another when you've lived in only one for all your life? That isn't easy. If you're accustomed to moving around its actually quite easy because you expect it. Moving from Japan to Canada is pretty significant.

 

[epigene]

Navy Guy, have you moved within the similar cultures with people speaking the same language around who your kids could quickly connect with, or has that also involved different cultures and languages?

Navy Guy's username gives me the impression that the "move" from one country to another he describes is move from one military base to another, which is in fact simply transfer between mini-America settings. Sure, there are differences in the broader perspective, but children in such cases remain within a single cultural setting. This isn't the case for Revenant.

Turning to the fundamental issue, I agree with Ashikaga and others that what your son needs is a better "family" environment, where he doesn't feel the animosity between his mother and father and feels he is loved. Resolve the relationship issue first.

The language and culture issues are minor compared to this.

 

[Half-n-Half]

Turning to the fundamental issue, I agree with Ashikaga and others that what your son needs is a better "family" environment, where he doesn't feel the animosity between his mother and father and feels he is loved. Resolve the relationship issue first.

I don't yet have a family so I can't say I understand what you are going through, but I particularly agree with the bold part from my own experiences. A child can feel the tension between his parents, make no mistake about that. If there is constant tension between the parents then home, a place that is supposed to be a sanctuary for the child, turns into a very uncomfortable/tense/exhausting environment.

I'll just repeat what's already been said: if you want to do what is best for your son then solve the tension between you and your wife, whether that means making up (which seems unlikely at this point) or separating.

My family environment was probably more hostile than yours was, and I too was very apprehensive at first of my parents divorcing, but when I saw how it was affecting both of my parents, my brother and myself I can't tell you how relieved I was when they finally separated.

But, of course, you know your wife/family/relationship much better than I do so take my opinion with a heavy grain of salt. Whichever way (divorce/staying together) gives your son more overall happiness go with that one.

 

[Navy Guy]

to Rev: I have moved from Florida to Seattle to Sasebo to Rhode Island and now we are heading to Yokohama. So I have moved within the same language but it is deffinately a different culture between South West Florida and Seattle. Of course then you see we moved to Southern Japan... my wife is from Yokohama. So we have done lots of moving both in and out of the same cultures.
To Noy: My kids have been learning both laguages since they were born, this was a choice we made from the time my wife was pregnant. I would agree that it did make it easier for them to be socially acceptable especially due to their ages but they still have to be accepted. Having (and I despise this term) "half breeds" has made it difficult for them to make friends with other kids when we move both in Japan and the States, I expect this will be the same when we move back to Japan in a few months. To really answer your question on performance I would say it is difficult and yes they did face it when we moved from their birth home (States) to Japan the first time because they had a very elementary grasp on the Japanese language, they could read a little but not at the same level as kids the same age. However kids are sponges and if you do not coddle them then they pick up language and reading quickly. In the three years we spent in Sasebo they went from a very low level of understanding to being ahead of kids their own age in Japanese, it also helped that we sent them to both American and Japanese schools...
To Epigene: While you would be most correct for most military members I am not your "A-typical" Navy guy... While there is that "life line" of a base or mini America as you put it, we live as far away from the base as is sensibly possible. Our home in Sasebo was a 45 minute drive away from anything U.S. related and I will be stationed in Yokosuka starting in Feb but will be living in Yokohama. My wife and I try to immerse our kids in which ever culture we are living in without the taint of the Naval base.. this would offend some people but I find the cheapening (sp?) of the areas around the bases to be disgusting. I hate to say it but sailors really can mess up a nice area.
As always Rev 2 cents is worth exactly that... well in Japan it's worth less right now.
I think you have a course set now you need to sail it. I hope everything works out for the best for your whole family, just remember to take care of yourself first so that you can take care of others later.
Kompai!

 

[Revenant]

Alright, I'm very grateful I got most everyone's input, even yours Mike, despite not thinking things are so black and white as all that, it did make me consider things I wouldn't have put so much weight on otherwise.

Two questions I must carefully consider.

First, and input on this one would be appreciated, seeing as of tonight, she lied to me about something important to me, would it be a bad example to stick with her seeing as it would make him think this kind of relationship is normal, and he knows very well what's going on here.

Second, and I don't know that anyone's input can really help me decide this, is seeing that my my son is a lot like me, quiet but sensitive to slight changes in relationships, is whether it would be better to separate and end the quiet tension, or continue for stability's sake.

I've avoided talking to her about any of this till I've thought this through more carefully.

 

[Revenant]

I guess I should put a little more detail into what I mean. My son knows the issue between my wife and I, and he was there when she lied again tonight.

Also, by I don't think anyone's input can really help, means no one knows my son better than I do. I've read of some children, who were less sensitive and more wrapped up in their own stuff being not really affected much by their parents quiet divorce, but some more sensitive children being highly affected by their parent's quiet dissatisfaction with each other. Just how affected my son would be by either course is a judgement call only I can make.

 

[epigene]

My experience tells me nearly all children (I'd love to say 100%; but can't give scientific data on that) are sensitive to their parents' emotive relationship with each other, as well as many other things going on in their environments. Some are good at hiding their feelings; some aren't. Your little boy may be sensitive like you, but he's not at all different from most other children.

"Continuing for stability's sake" is not stability from the standpoint of the child. It's merely superficial, and he will know it. He will have to witness the cold and rocky relationship between you and your wife as long as you're together, on a daily basis. To me, the only choice for "stability" for your child comes from divorce.

 

[Ashikaga]

....First, and input on this one would be appreciated, seeing as of tonight, she lied to me about something important to me, would it be a bad example to stick with her seeing as it would make him think this kind of relationship is normal, and he knows very well what's going on here.

WHY are you doing this in front of your son!? Would it be bad for him? You should know the answer to that already.

I don't think it matters who did/said what to whom and the significance of that action to the parties involved at this pont. We only know the story from YOUR pont of view, so let us not go down the path of making either of you a victim.

....seeing that my my son is a lot like me, quiet but sensitive to slight changes in relationships, is whether it would be better to separate and end the quiet tension, or continue for stability's sake.

Whose stability are you more concerned about really? Your son's or yours? If you're unhappy with the situation you're in, get out! I am starting to suspect that you're using your son as an excuse for not doing what you KNOW you should be doing.

Changes are scary, I know, and this is a biggie. But you cannot have it both ways! If you're staying for your son's sake, then you and your wife would HAVE TO get along with each other no matter how difficult that may be. Otherwise, how could that be to your son's benefit especially when you know that he is aware of what's going on between you two?

 

[Navy Guy]

I am going to agree with my two other posters above... You need to end it and do it quick. Keep him out of the messy stuff like figuring out who gets what or how much, that is none of his buisness. I believe he should stay with his mom, not because your a bad father but it seems to me that is what he is probably going to want (it's easier) AND it will make the divorce easier than if you fight for custody... by the way good luck trying to get custody any how, my brother in law is currently fighting that battle with his soon to be ex (both Japanese).

This will free you up to make your choices without her input.

In the end I think this will make life easier for all of you, then you can decide whether to stay in Japan or go back to Canada.

 

[Revenant]

Here's the main issue though, neither of us trust each other, and I certainly know I have valid reasons for that, and I know she has very valid reasons for not trusting me, cause I gave her good reasons not to trust me (11 years ago and when she made me promise never to meet the girl I was dating 3 years ago on threat of never seeing my son again, and yeah, I promised but didn't keep that promise thinking she'd never find out, I mean I didn't see cutting off possibility when she had already been all the way to a very different part of Japan to see another guy). I ALREADY know this relationship is not going to make it, as trust is a what makes relationships stick, and it's not here (I was the first to break the trust 11 years ago).

I'm no saint, very far from it, and I think I've been far more honest here than most people would be, given some people will look down on me in moral disgust for what I've done and what I eventually decide. I think that perhaps whatever respect some people had for me here may be gone, but I want objective input based on what really went down, including all evils I've done. I am deciding what's best for my son, pure and simple, otherwise I would've left a very very long time ago.

I am not terribly afraid of change for myself, I've been through a hell of a lot of negative change throughout life, some that what I've read firsthand from most other people suffering the same, has seriously made them consider suicide. Personally I lost reason to live, and it was only my 'duty' to my son that kept me going, as odd as that may sound after all the evils I've done. I've been through more condescension, disgust, disbelief, and ridicule on a lot of single days than most people experience even in a single year of their lives due to a fairly recent medical condition. I don't expect people will understand that, as I'm sure no one here suffers the same rare medical condition that I do, and till you actually are here, it won't be fully understood by anyone but sufferers. The social implications are huge for 95 percent of sufferers, and only a small percentage can seemingly cheerfully get through their days despite the condition. All that is to say I can handle negative change myself.

I have no reason to believe my son has developed anywhere near the skill for negative change that I have, and between two evils, I wonder what is best for him. This is hardly about my fear of change.

Will he feel our distrust for each other (absolutely no reason to see us trusting each other again), and how will that affect his future relationships? I absolutely believe he senses it now.

I guess writing all this really has made me decide, the only eventual stable road for all of us is divorce. My decision has been made, and thank you epigene for, I don't know how to put it, but for putting into words and good sense what I've sort of always felt but never been quite sure of myself on. Much appreciated. Thanks to all other posters as well, you're contributions have certainly helped me decide as well, even though I only name epigene cause her point rang most strongly with me, that's not to say other points didn't ring true as well.

 

[epigene]

Revenant, I know most everyone here had been saying the same thing in their different ways and am glad to know that you understand.

I know going through a divorce is a horrid thing when you're in the middle of the process, but when it's all over, your son will see the peace and stability in the faces of his mom and dad and finally realize that, despite financial and other problems that may persist, everything is moving for the better for him.

Show your son how much you love him. That's very important for his peace of mind. Also, it is a bond that will stay, regardless of whether you live together with him or not.
My prayers for happiness for you and your child!

 

[Pachipro]

I've never had children so I cannot possibly know what you are going through, but from the viewpoint of a child of a bad relationship I can give my opinion.

My mom was 17 and my dad 21 when I was born. Back in the day my parents "had" to get married. As someone whose parents stayed together "for the sake of the children" I can tell you first hand I (and my siblings) wished they had divorced years earlier than they did as the tension in the house made it very uncomfortable for all us kids. Kids are not stupid, and as much as they tried not to show it we knew they were not happy and there were times I dreaded going home. At night we could hear their muffled arguments and we hated it as we knew they also hated each other. It was worse when it blew up in front of us.

Looking back on it, it would've been much better for the entire family had they divorced early and we probably would've had a better childhood as we knew they loved us. They would've been happier and so would we.

Therefore, my suggestion is to bite the bullet, get divorced, move close and stay in constant touch with your child. He knows you love him, but probably hates the tension in the house. It will be much better for all concerned.

 

[noyhauser]

to Rev: I have moved from Florida to Seattle to Sasebo to Rhode Island and now we are heading to Yokohama. So I have moved within the same language but it is deffinately a different culture between South West Florida and Seattle. Of course then you see we moved to Southern Japan... my wife is from Yokohama. So we have done lots of moving both in and out of the same cultures.
To Noy: My kids have been learning both laguages since they were born, this was a choice we made from the time my wife was pregnant. I would agree that it did make it easier for them to be socially acceptable especially due to their ages but they still have to be accepted. Having (and I despise this term) "half breeds" has made it difficult for them to make friends with other kids when we move both in Japan and the States, I expect this will be the same when we move back to Japan in a few months. To really answer your question on performance I would say it is difficult and yes they did face it when we moved from their birth home (States) to Japan the first time because they had a very elementary grasp on the Japanese language, they could read a little but not at the same level as kids the same age. However kids are sponges and if you do not coddle them then they pick up language and reading quickly. In the three years we spent in Sasebo they went from a very low level of understanding to being ahead of kids their own age in Japanese, it also helped that we sent them to both American and Japanese schools...

Hey Navyman. I agree with you that kids are resilient. And as a "half breed" it can be tough. However I think its a strength when you get older. Regardless its not easy if you move from one culture to another abruptly. You probably knew you were going to move around with your family and prepared them as such. I don't think Revenant did that... so moving his son at the age of 11 would be significantly more difficult for him than it was for your children.

I'm not trying to attack your point, I get it and I agree kids are tough. My brother faced a very similar situation and he came out fine. However its not easy and there will be alot difficulty for his son.

 

[Navy Guy]

Noyhauser I will agree that Rev and I have two different situations. I can prepare my kids a year ahead of the move and they also understand that daddies work requires us to move a lot.

My advice was simply to try and help him see the move from someones perspective that has moved with kids from one culture to another. I am not sure how many of the posters on this forum have done this before, especially multiple times. Even with preperation it is difficult for them to pack every three years say good bye to friends that they have made and move to a new location just to start the process over again... and trust me now that they are pre-teen / teen girls this is becoming an issue. I am hoping this will be our last move until I retire and they can grow some "roots".

But back on subject... with a divorce imminent I would still suggest that you leave your son with his mom. Whether you stay in Japan for the earning potential (as you stated) or you move back to Canada for the medical benefits I think this would be the least disruptive for your son's life, maybe not your ideal but, I believe, overall the best decision. This way you can still visit and support him but also take care of your buisness both personal and financial.

Again my 2 cents and we all know how much thats worth in todays economy.

 

[Revenant]

Uuugh, attempting to civilly negotiate the divorce, and she's just not getting it at all. She's attempting to save it all not cause she cares a whole lot about me, but cause she feels my son would be torn up despite his already guessing we might be getting divorced. Well, if he can already guess, at age eleven, it's not terribly stable for him. I have never really yelled at anyone, but I may just yell at my wife the next chance my son's not around. Comments unexpected, just updating, weird that we talked about divorce a very long time ago, we both agreed to it at the time, but then due to her deferring choices and my trying to keep options for my son open, we're still married four years later.

 

[bruno]

Better an end with terror than terror without an end !
(Proverb)

 

[Mars Man]

Bruno san does have a point there.

. . . weird that we talked about divorce a very long time ago, we both agreed to it at the time, but . . . we're still married four years later.

This very point had been my main concern. Of course, as it has played out, and some four years have now passed, two since we'd last talked, it most natural to understand that you are not married to her, neither her to you--except for reason of the conception of law.

Now, what do you think might happen if she were to find women's undergarments in your car, or worse, under your futon, or lying around somewhere in the house? Or maybe that old lipstick on the collar' number; or, yes, I know, the matches from the love hotel in your coat pocket number? Brings back that ole Paul Simon number...there must be 50 ways to leave your lover.

The things regarding your son's eventuality are beyond us, for the very most part (pragmatically and by nature), but as for the concept of being married in the natural sense to that woman, we know you are not. Therefore, it might be good to just go out, paint the town some 50 shades of red and pinkish hues, and let go of that stress !!? (Besides, it's the New Year holiday season now !! )

 

[Revenant]

Good Lord am I glad I can access the advice of people I can trust. Most people here are careful, honest, and pragmatic about all they put down. I have just told her that she has the end of January to get that application in, and that she doesn't even have to move to Canada till four years later to keep that Permanent Residential Status in Canada. I'll pay for that, and then either move out to an apartment here if she either agrees to the divorce here, or if Japanese law still allows it, force the divorce here on Canadian law, OR move back to Canada if Japanese law doesn't allow divorce based on Canadian law and she doesn't sign the papers. I absolutely know my son feels the tension, cause he said 'you guys are getting divorced, aren't you?'.

He likes both of us, but I think he'd be better off with my wife given she is, while not honest with me, still in many ways just a better person than I am. I do think he will always want to keep in contact with me, and she has no problem with letting him keep in contact with me.

It's the best I can do I feel, and I think I might just head out on New Years Eve just to blow off a little steam. Don't think anything will happen, since things rarely do (twice very early on in our marriage, and only twice after we had agreed on divorce, but not recently), nonetheless it'll just be fun to get out.

Usually the only time I can get upset enough to get her to do something is after I've had a few, and I'm not at all a violent person, it's unfortunately the only time I can be straight and honest with any intensity, we argue then, and finally agree that the only things we can do are things we can do soon to get on with the plan, but it takes my few drinks and getting after her ending in arguments to get something done that we both agree is better done soon (other stuff that regards me alone simply isn't done).

Guess on a lighter note, THE only person who can get my just raving mad even when I'm sober is my brother, or just period at all actually. I haven't even been angry with guys who were looking to put me down or accuse me of things I know I didn't do even when drunk out of my skull (that's not to say I make better choices than I would when I'm sober, cause I know I don't, just that I really don't get raving angry easily).

 

[Mars Man]

It's the best I can do I feel, and I think I might just head out on New Years Eve just to blow off a little steam. Don't think anything will happen, since things rarely do (twice very early on in our marriage, and only twice after we had agreed on divorce, but not recently), nonetheless it'll just be fun to get out.

Now THAT sounds like a plan !! I'll even drink a couple or 10 for you on New Year's Eve, with your efforts to 'just let it all hang out' !! More power to ya !! MM